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Microsoft Developers Respond To .NET Criticism
bonch writes "Richard Grimes of Dr. Dobbs Journal wrote an article entitled Mr. Grimes' Farewell, in which he discusses what he feels are inherent flaws in .NET, and how he is abandoning his .NET column. Grimes argues that .NET is merely thin wrappers to Win32 calls (Avalon uses message functions that date back to 16-bit Windows), that Microsoft has abandoned confidence in both .NET and sales of Longhorn, and that the framework itself is too large and poorly implemented, most of it ported from past APIs like WFC and VB. Dan Fernandez, Microsoft's Visual C# Project Manager, has responded in his blog. Richard Grimes appears in the comments to defend his criticism, referencing first-hand disassembly of .NET APIs using ildasm. Scott Swigart has also responded to the criticism of Visual Basic .NET. Apparently, Mr. Grimes struck some nerves."
How ironic would it be if Microsoft eventually abandoned .Net and Mono was the only remaining development environment that supported C#?
I'm a big tall mofo.
How would you feel if someone criticized stuff YOU made in a public forum? This blogging stuff has gone TOO FAR and doesn't respect peoples' feelings.
I hear that now they have this spyware that downloads and installs .Net framework on users' PCs. Now we need a worm that does the same and the thing will soon be widely deployed!
Microsoft has abandoned confidence in both .NET and sales of Longhorn
Great! Does this mean they'll be shipping their own Linux+OpenOffice Distro?
Point. Woosh - that's the sound of you missing it completely.
The problem being described is that by being "merely thin wrappers to Win32 calls" it is simply papering over the enormous cracks and legacy rubbish that is the current Win32 architecture when there was an opportunity here to break free of that all and start with a new, clean, functional and efficient environment for the 21st century.
I don't deny that Microsoft have done a good job in the packaging, but as the old saying goes, however hard you try, you can't polish a turd.
Jolyon
Please read my Canon EOS tech blog at http://www.everyothershot.com
First platform independent framework/runtime, implemented for only one OS.
839*929
I think he probably wanted them to rewrite things to be crossplatform. Java isn't a thin wrapper around the Solaris API, it's a completely redone API which uses Solaris as just one of many backends. It's not noticeably more Solaris-based than win32-based or anything else-based. By contrast .net is clearly completely based around windows, making it harder to port to other platforms, and arguably harder to use.
I am trolling
The VB devs here prefer, and every VB install is actually VB6. We buy .NET but none of the Devs want it for anything but the license to use VB6.
VB6 is much smaller and has a higher compatability across all the company platforms, plus the windows CE devices we have here in he wearhouse and field techs carry run an older CE version that seems to like the CD kit+VB6 better. (no upgrading them is not an option at $2150.00 each)
Or so they say, I rarely touch the stuff. I find that python does the job faster and better, but try and convince a VB jockey that it really is just as easy without an IDE.
Python + wxPython = killer cross platform Rapid development language.... as soon as you get past the quirks.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Of course it is. That's called functional programming!
I suggest you take some time to read up on functional programming.
(Disclaimer: I know what you're meaning to say, I'm merely pointing out that the term you used isn't what you think it is.)
There are thousands if not millions of people who have built thier understanding of computer systems around Microsoft's operating systems, software products and programming environments. Let that idea settle in deeply for those who see a much larger picture and take it for granted.
This is not only their identity as programmers, but their foundation for career building and therefore their house and car payments, their breakfast and dinner and their hopes for retirement. It's a huge deal to criticise Microsoft for these people. Is it any wonder why it becomes a holy war for so many people? It's no mystery to me at all -- I even have a brother who has fallen into that trap and in order to keep peace in the family, I pretty much keep my "opinions" to myself much of the time.
So while I am glad to see greater use and corporate acceptance of Linux or other alternative operating systems, I kind worry a little for those who aren't allowing themselves to see things beginning to crumble for Microsoft and that if they aren't careful will fall along with them.
recently migrated to .NET. The server admin seems happy but the user experience sucks big time. I never thought I would say something nice about Cold Fusion but the forum certainly was more user friendly running under that.
realkiwi
If you stick your head in the sand and only hear good things, this leads to *big* problems later. You can look at some history at IBM and see that the cheerleader mentality cost them a lot. It didn't matter what the truth was, it didn't matter what reality was, it didn't matter if the product worked, it was your job to promote it like it was the best thing since sliced bread, and do it with a smile on your face. You could see a lot of that with PS/2s
Everyone that builds something, designs somethings, etc, should be able to have some basic defense of his actions, designs, procedures. If all you can say is "that's hurtfull", you are in big trouble.
eric
"So should Firefox. They are simply papering over the enourmous cracks and legacy rubbish that is Netscape 4.0."
The Mozilla project did do a massive rewrite of the original Netscape code.
The one thing Microsoft has been consistently bad at is developing nice clean APIs. They often provided very good tools to help you cope with the sheer ugliness of their APIs but MS never managed to create an API that felt natural to use.
I had high hopes with
Your pizza just the way you ought to have it.
I am a .Mac developer and I can assure you that iDisk is more than a thin wrapper for WebDAV calls! Homepage is the best web development platform I've ever had the pleasure of using.
1. I write a .Net application. .Net compatibility. (it's a thin wrapper after all)
.Net library.. but the whole system is still a solid improvement over MFC et al. IMHO
2. Microsoft rewrites Windows, ejects the old API but keeps
I don't have to rewrite my application (not even recompile it), while MS can fix their low-level API.
3. PROFIT!!!
I do agree there are a bunch of flaws in the
The path I walk alone is endlessly long.
30 minutes by bike, 15 by bus.
Microsoft sits on a treasure chest, namely 10 years of bugfixed, known-to-be-working code
Yeah, now if only they'd release it....
My opinion is that Avalon, or more specifically, XAML, will mark the death of ASP. The reason is that Avalon is a client-side technology, but the browser is an important part of the distribution model. XAML is so rich that a browser-contained XAML application will look no different to a process-based Avalon application, and coupled with Web Services or Indigo (as the mechanism to access remote code), an XAML application will make an ASP.NET application look paltry and antiquated.
Microsoft's track record with browser-based applications is one security disaster after another. Their existing browser-centric security model is fragile that I can't see a way to fix it without changing the API and breaking every application that uses it.
If Microsoft's web applications come to depend on that model, they'll never be able to extricate themselves from that mess.
You should check out my new language, "Braindead". Every program is exactly one character long! Of course, some people complain that they have trouble finding which of the +Inf characters to use, but that's a different problem.
Karma: -2147483648 (Mostly affected by integer overflow)
From RG's article I take the decision to make Avalon available to other versions of Windows as a lack of confidence in the sales of Longhorn.
So if MS made Avalon not available for other versions of windows we'd moan about requiring to upgade to longhorn and MS wanting to make more sales on the expense of the consumer. When they announce it will be available for older versions of Windows we moan about their lack of confidence in longhorn sales... sheesh......
The following statement is true
The preceding statement is false
Apparently, you also forget the pain of pre-.NET development. I haven't forgotten the insane amount of work it was to build a Web site with tables that let you sort and page data. I haven't forgotten how much work it was to write client-side and server side code to validate form fields.
Wtf? Apparently he has forgoten to use PHP for web development.
"Free software as in beer, copy protection as in racket" - Telsa Gwynne
Umm .. the .Net library has a namespace called System.Windows which contains all the windows-specific functionality (COM, System.Windows.Forms, etc).
.Net is undeniably built with Windows in mind, but it's hardly 'win32-based'.
Nobody is forced to use this namespace, nor can we blame MS for offering Windows-only functionality.
The runtime runs just fine on any platform (Rotor and Mono show this) and the library is clearly devided between Windows libs and 'common' libs like XML, SOAP, HTTP, etc.
There are also plenty third party libraries available to enable platform independence. (GTK#, WX#, etc.)
The path I walk alone is endlessly long.
30 minutes by bike, 15 by bus.
everyone will read it and post it on Slashdot. This guy is using kernels of truth to act as if those kernels of truth are indisputable evidence of his incorrect conclusions. e.g. "The sky is blue. Blue is the color of water. Therefor if I fly I will drown."
Being anti-Microsoft doesn't automatically make something true.
Yes.. But having dissassembly output does...
And in proper slashdot tradition, I demonstrate both sayings are wrong.
I feel dirty reading so many MS Developer comments... bleh
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
All "one language, any platform" - even Java bytecode, via JRuby and JPython. So in a different way, "any language, any platform". Same story with Mono. Remind me again: why does .NET exist?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Microsoft is also developing lots of new systems code, and Grimes' question is, how come so little (if any) of it is written in .NET, if .NET is indeed the future? Or is .NET just the latest incarnation of the MFC: good enough for everyone else and to sell lots of books, but most certainly not for internal Microsoft development?
I think it's valid in the C99 specs, which is the current standard for the C language.
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From some AC responding to Dan Fernandez's blog and referring to Richard Grimes:
At the bottom you'll find that he listed his email, but rather then use a contact me form, or listing it directly, he ENCODED HIS EMAIL address in Rot 13 encryption!! Do you really want to take advice on "usability" from someone who thinks it's a good idea to encrypt their email address?
I'm not sure I really need to comment further on this.
When moderating, assume I have not yet had my coffee.
I am old enough to remember the original VB columnist at some high-profile magazine (was it Dr Dobb's itself?) throwing the towel on the column because he couldn't stand the bloating of the language by MS... and the C++ Advisor-or-something-the-like columnist (was it Unix Magazine or what?) quitting the column because C++, being designed by committee, required a language lawyer and was only getting worse.
No news here. If you don't care for elegance, you go awok with evolution. ISO SQL, Perl, there are many many examples.
Now if only people would rethink and take the pain of learning a real, elegant language... a functional (Lisp, Scheme, Haskell, ML) or pure OO (Smalltalk, Squeak) or truly relational (Tutorial D, D4) one.
Instead of just trying to keep extending known languages into unknown fields. C is just structure, platform-independent Assembly; how come people want to create custom applications in it or its Java, C++, C#, ObjectiveC? This comes only as an indictment of the alternatives, or worse still of programmers and their managers.
And BASIC, it was only a stepping stone in learning COBOL. How come it is used to deploy anything more than a prototype? Don't get me started with excuses.
It is high time managers and programmers get real and start using languages designed to do what they want. COBOL, Pascal, Smalltalk, Lisp... each in their niche, they are better than C or BASIC and their overextended derivatives.
Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
MS Troubleshooting Help for "Turd Sandwich"
1. Is your garden on the planet earth, and exposed to sunlight, oxygen, and water? []y []n
2. Are you using MS Turd Sandwich in the Spring, Summer or Fall? (MS Turd Sandwich is incompatible with Winter in some climates) []y []n
3. Please grade and re-seed your lawn and garden, replant your trees and shrubs, and rebuild any property on the affected location. Did this solve your problem? []y []n
4. You have reached the end of the troubleshooter for MS Turd Sandwich. Please contact tech support for the same information, or upgrade to MS Turd Sandwich 2.0, which contains twice as much Turd as the previous release.
From DF Blog:
.NET framework from Windows Update and the Microsoft Download center to date. For a simple guy like me, that translates to about 5.5 million downloads a month. Another interesting datapoint is that in 2004, we expect to have about 54 million new PCs shipping with the .NET framework installed/preloaded. We also have over 2.5M developers targeting managed code.
.Net installed because they did a windows update and it was one of the available options? My mom has .Net installed, but I guarantee she is not using it for anything other than keeping her hard drive full.
Soma: We have seen over 70 million downloads of the
It's a small point, but how many users have
Dave
Better than another?
C# Ecma, and Java is JCP. One is a community based process and the other a standard effectivley controlled by a single company who manages to get ECMA to rubberstamp the whole thing - so if I were you I'd probably keep the whole "ECMA standard" thing at a low profile so people don't look too close at what is going on there.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley