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Would You Pay 5 Cents For a Song?

irikar writes "An academic at McGill University has a simple plan to stop the plague of unauthorized music downloads on the Internet. But it entails changing the entire music industry as we know it, and Apple Computers, which may have the power to make the change, is listening."

31 of 905 comments (clear)

  1. No matter what free will always win... by garcia · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yet, Pearlman went further. He said that since this plan puts the onus on a massive Internet presence to distribute all the music in the world, why not have such computer companies as Apple and such major Internet companies as Yahoo simply buy up the world's four major record labels? Pearlman was careful to add, though, that he doesn't see his plan killing off demand for CDs.

    And somehow this isn't a pie-in-the-sky idea? Oh give me a break! So what? Apple, Yahoo, Google, Foo buy up the companies and what happens? Their bean-counters decide that well if we can make billions selling songs for .05/download we could make 10x as much if we sell them for .50/download and 20x as much if we sell them for .99/download.

    Pearlman said that Pfohl misunderstood the idea. Then again, another record-industry type, casually speaking to Pearlman after the talk, had perhaps the most succinct counter suggestion. Why not charge 10 cents, instead of 5, and double the revenue?

    Thank you so very much for proving my point.

    It would also obliterate musicians' choices on how their music could be sold by conscripting them into a 5-cents-a-song system. And it would destroy record companies' incentive to invest in new acts, Pfohl said.

    Somehow I doubt that most of the musicians that are under the current cartel's contracts care how their music is distributed as long as they get paid. Those that don't give a shit already allow their music to be distributed for free on the Internet.

    Let's stop with the whining and bitching about the artists you sleazy fuckers and start talking from your own business perspective. Everyone and their grandmothers know that you don't give one iota of a shit about the musicians unless they are filling your ever greedier pockets with money that you can throw at more shitty musicians and sympathetic lawmakers that will kowtow to your bullshit. Someday you will lose but I'm certain that this plan won't do it to you...

    It amazes me that no one looks at the successful bands that have been distributing their music for free for years and says, "hmm, why is this still working for them and we are continuing to put out class acts like Ashlee Lipsynchson and we are hemorrhaging money?"

    Some of the more recent big bands that allow their music to be distributed include Wilco and Los Lonely Boys. Wilco won the best alternative album this year. Hmm and yet they allow me to download their shows. Guess what RIAA? I would buy their album ANY DAY over someone like Ashlee who lip synchs her live crap and refuses to let us hear it for nothing. I mean, it's not even her doing anything why shouldn't it be free?

    Just a FYI Apple, no matter how cheap something is it is NEVER as cheap as free. Free will always win out.

    1. Re:No matter what free will always win... by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Their bean-counters decide that well if we can make billions selling songs for .05/download we could make 10x as much if we sell them for .50/download and 20x as much if we sell them for .99/download. Unless their bean-counters have taken Econ 101 and know the most basic things about supply and demand. As you increase price, you decrease volume. There is always a sweet spot that maximizes profit.

    2. Re:No matter what free will always win... by Liselle · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I didn't see anywhere in the article that answered the "who is going to pay for this?" question. Based on what it costs Apple to run the iTMS, somehow I don't see five cents doing much more than covering overhead, if that. If you're just ignoring copyright law and distributing illegally, like a certain site oft-mentioned here, you could make a profit out of it. But if everyone does it, say hello to less new music... right?

      --
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    3. Re:No matter what free will always win... by Migrant+Programmer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Their bean-counters decide that well if we can make billions selling songs for .05/download we could make 10x as much if we sell them for .50/download and 20x as much if we sell them for .99/download.

      Please look up the term "elasticity" in your friendly neighbourhood economics textbook.

    4. Re:No matter what free will always win... by stecoop · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As you increase price, you decrease volume. There is always a sweet spot that maximizes profit.

      Well if you would take Marketing 101 you would learn a couple of other formulas too. You notice at Pizza hut that they sell pizza for $10 dollars for the first one and say $7 for the second one. There is a profit point during the transaction that you can maximize returns buy adding another one to a product that you are already going to buy. Now you have $10 for the 1st $7 for the 2nd and 5$ for the third. Well as you eat more and more pizza there becomes a point where you wont buy another no matter what the price is and then you have reached saturation at that price point. Therefore even though you have saturated the market you can still gather further funds from a fixed sale/profit point.

    5. Re:No matter what free will always win... by jigoman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      While you're completely right that nothing beats free, you can't deny the number downloads iTMS has garnered since its start. While free music will always be available, don't underestimate the 'guilt-free' factor. A clean conscience for 5 cents/song is about as good a deal as you can get.

    6. Re:No matter what free will always win... by TheKubrix · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm not so sure about that. Granted free is better than paying even a penny, but regardless going via the "free" route is not only more difficult, but leads you down a road of problems. On the extreme end of the scale you can end up having the RIAA knock down your door. Then theres the problem of having spyware/virii ridden software (to this day I still clean/remove Kazaa from people's computer and slap them on the hand/head). Furthermore, theres the issue of not having an entirely clean track. You have to be concerned about having the right song, having the entire song, and then quality, AND the amount of time it takes to be in the queue and to finally download it. All that for what? To save you a few pennies? Unless you're a complete cheap bastard or simply bent on the idea of ripping off musciains, then a major drop in prices will DEFINATLY help. Essentially if they can devise a system where you are a click and a couple minutes (assuming bandwidth conex) away from getting an album for a couple bucks, then I'm positive that pirating would go down.

    7. Re:No matter what free will always win... by jbrader · · Score: 3, Insightful
      As idealistic as this sounds I don't think people get into music for the money. Think about how many bands you've seen playing clubs. Those guys don't make shit from thier music and a lot of them have to have day jobs to make a living. So would we "say hello to less music"?

      Maybe not, but if what you're saying is right, we might end up with less career musicians.

      Although, if you look at some of those old bands that are still touring (aerosmith, the stones etc.) and are just rehashing thier old stuff over and over that might not be so bad.

      --
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    8. Re:No matter what free will always win... by rainman_bc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unless their bean-counters have taken Econ 101

      Obviously you never took economics 101 either.

      Now true the cheaper you go, the more a person will download. The trick, however is to maximize profits. They are in business to make money. Period.

      They feel that 99 cents / song maximizes their reveues. Their choice - it's their product, and if you don't like it, move on and listen to the radio.

      --
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    9. Re:No matter what free will always win... by tigersha · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sigh. Always this /. crap about eliminating the middle men.

      Same this morning about free academic publication. You have any idea how much time and cost it takes to produce an album? Not play and record it, but to produce the final product? You also know that the musicians themselves do not always do this?

      You also know that it takes some rather expensive equipment to produce a professional album, equipment that is, in effect, shared by the people to are signed to a label?

      --
      The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
    10. Re:No matter what free will always win... by mikeplokta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, free won't always win. Convenience will always win, and free is part of convenient. But I would rather (for example) pay US$1 to download an episode of a TV show instead of messing around with BitTorrent, as long as they genuinely make it more convenient -- which means a big fat pipe and a choice of unDRMed video formats.

      The big mistake that the music industry is making, and the TV and movie industries are stumbling into, is to make their products less convenient on other grounds as well as more expensive -- region codes, release windows, DRM, etc. Once something is released to the public, it needs to be released to the public -- TV shows and movies need to be available for download on the day that they're first shown.

    11. Re:No matter what free will always win... by prgrmr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There would also be questions of anti-trust involved. We wouldn't want them to become monopolists.

      With only 4 major labels, and all of them coordinating distribution and pricing to various degrees, we're basically at the monopoly point anyway.

      The suggestion that it's a good idea that the computer companies buy up record companies and become media conglomerates fills me with dread.

      Agreed!

    12. Re:No matter what free will always win... by Skye16 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There are independent studios that you can record at as well. And yes, they CAN come out sounding really damn good when it's all said and done. Would Britney Spears be able to do it, if she had no money and was just starting? No. But someone who relied on instrumentation and vocals from within the band COULD do it, quite easily. I have TONS of music for you to listen to that sounds wonderful (even if it isn't what you particularly like) that is done independent of anyone. I even have some stuff of two guys who did much of it in their LIVING room and it sounds superb (if you're interested in hearing THAT, go try out Pinback - Microtonic Wave or "B"(Offcell EP) on Launch - if you don't like the music itself, that's fine, but focus mostly on the quality of the production).

      It can be done. It may be more work on the part of the musicians, but it's also cheaper. The only thing that would be prohibitively difficult would be in the distribution of physical CDs (but I guess that's where Amazon comes in, eh?). And when you get to the internet...shoo. It all comes together there.

    13. Re:No matter what free will always win... by DeathFlame · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And this is exactly what the article is adressing.

      That they are wrong about their pricing, and people have moved on, but not to radio, to downloading the songs for free. The only way to win back these people downloading for free is to offer a price of nearly free. Most people downloading 1000 songs a month would never pay $1 a song. But would they pay $0.05 a song? Maybe. And more likley are the people downloading 100 songs a month. $100 is a lot of money.. but $5? Do you think there are 20x the number of people downloading 100 songs a month than buying 100 songs a month? Probably. Therefore, there is money to be made.

      And any mention of artists not liking this sort of distribution system is crap. "Um.. no I don't want to sell my songs for cheaper so that everyone can hear them, only those spending lots get to hear my songs"

      Someone mentioned above something about higher pricing to make it appear the CDs (and by association, the music) 'worth more'. Well it's obvious by the number of downloaders that the CD's are not 'worth more' because of their price...

    14. Re:No matter what free will always win... by JWW · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But illegal downloading far outstrips legal downloading. What the article is really talking about is what would it take to get nearly everyone downloading music legally. I believe that his price point would probably do it as it is an almost disposible amount of money to consumers. And hey, you would have a legal download, too.

      Now the why not 10 cents argument is valid, but I think its still basically a curve. Where 5 cents is the point at where almost everybody leagally downloads music, I think 10 cents might be the point at which half of the people leagally download music.

      The music industry is being greedy, not logical when they determine their pricing right now. We we already burned on the change from cassettes to CD which were going to be much cheaper once they were adopted. So the real feeling allowing people to live with the fact that they're illegally downloading music is that the price for music is obscenely high. No CD is worth $ 16, most aren't even worth $ 13, some aren't even worth $ 2.

      In real manufacturing, real market forces cut the margins down, but with the recording industry prices are artifically set by the RIAA.

      If the recording idustry took an honest look at their options this 5 cents/download option would make them huge amounts of money and save them boatloads on legal fees and bribes for government officials.

    15. Re:No matter what free will always win... by Dashing+Leech · · Score: 4, Insightful
      "Obviously you never took economics 101 either. Now true the cheaper you go, the more a person will download. The trick, however is to maximize profits. They are in business to make money. Period."

      I'm confused at your point. The "sweet spot" he was talking about was the maximum profit point. That is, selling 100 units at 1$ each earns you $100 whereas selling 10,000 units at 5 cents a piece earns you $500 dollars. The question is where is price*volume at a maximum and that requires understanding the volume that people will buy as a function of price.

      "They feel that 99 cents / song maximizes their reveues. Their choice - it's their product, and if you don't like it, move on and listen to the radio."

      That's true. Any company is allowed to do things less than best for themselves and even drive themself into the ground. It certainly doesn't mean 99 cents actually is the sweet spot to maximize their profits thought. They might make a lot more money at 5 cents per song if that entices more than a 20 fold increase in sales.

    16. Re:No matter what free will always win... by theVP · · Score: 3, Insightful

      you've just described "Diminishing Utility", which is something that you learn in Econ 101 as well. Quite frankly, it does nothing to disprove his point, as it doesn't negate the law of demand. Not only that, the Utility considered in downloadable music is FAR FAR too large and the diminishing of it is far too small to make it worthwile to mention in this discussion at all.

      --
      "No one is more miserable than the person who wills everything and can do nothing." -Emperor Claudius 10 BC - AD 54
    17. Re:No matter what free will always win... by dillon_rinker · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To be precise, cartels only work when consumers PERCEIVE that they can't "do without". Most American consumers can't distinguish between wants and needs.

    18. Re:No matter what free will always win... by MCraigW · · Score: 5, Insightful
      the cheap good will inevitably break, forcing you to buy another one

      So a 5 cent song will break before a 99 cent song?

  2. I will stop downloading by REBloomfield · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When the record companies sell what i want to hear. everything i pulled off of napster back in the day was 80's rock and metal stuff that has been discontinued. For god sake guys, put your back catalogues on line, (or even press a cd or two on demand) and then we'll talk. :(

  3. You can forget the "stealing tax" by bigtallmofo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In addition, a 1 per cent sales tax would be placed on Internet services and new computers -- two industries that many argue have profited enormously from rampant file-sharing, but haven't had to compensate artists.

    This is the same scheme that we have today on blank CDs and the like and it is total BS to apply it to computers. I have no idea why anyone outside the entertainment business thinks that it's OK to put a music-stealing tax on every computer, or DRM on every computer when not every computer is even considered for such use. What about the company that buys 10,000 computers per year and because some 12 year old is "stealing" music they have to pay an additional tax and further have to have their computers crippled with DRM?

    --
    I'm a big tall mofo.
  4. Commodites by BWJones · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Apple should simply be charging 5 cents instead of 99 cents a song, he said.

    The issue is not what Apple is charging, but what the record companies are charging Apple. As I understand it, Apple Computer Inc. is making essentially nothing on the sale of each song, but rather are using song sales to drive sales of iPod and thus Macintosh computers and Apple software. I am sure that Apple would be more than happy to participate in a 5 cents/song pricing scheme, but it is the record industry that is going to be the hard ones to convince. I do not understand how the recording industry can say it would destroy record companies' incentive to invest in new acts when the potential for much greater revenues can be had with increased volume and lower prices. What they are missing is that new music is what is going to be transiently valuable, but that pre-existing libraries of music are a commodity and should economically be treated as such according to all economic theories I am aware of. This means low prices and high volume.

    --
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  5. No matter what free will always win...dead end. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Just a FYI Apple, no matter how cheap something is it is NEVER as cheap as free. Free will always win out."

    Until there's nothing left to be free. Then free loses badly.

  6. No, no and no! by Sebby · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I stopped reading when I got to this sentence: "In addition, a 1 per cent sales tax would be placed on Internet services and new computers"

    No, no and fucking no! I refuse to finance any industry which I don't have anything to do with.

    When I buy computers for my business, I don't buy them for anything music-related, so I see NO reason to pay a tax, or levy or whatever the fuck they want to call it to support any music-related thing.

    I'm tired of corporations and government thinking society exists for the sole purpose of ensure their profit.



    --

    AC comments get piped to /dev/null
  7. Laffer Curve of file sharing. by Vengie · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Basically, he's saying that "If you sell x songs at 99 cents a song" and that "If you drop the price to 5 cents, you will sell more than 20x songs" -- he claims the growth could be "exponential."

    To a certain extent, he's somewhat right. It would substantially lower the bar and you'd have far more impulse buys (and drunk song-buying binges wouldn't hurt as much. Fear the drunken one-click shopping spree!)

    However, I am not such a big fan of his idea of taxing PCs. However, the last line of the article is THE MOST INFORMATIVE OF ALL:
    Then again, another record-industry type, casually speaking to Pearlman after the talk, had perhaps the most succinct counter suggestion. Why not charge 10 cents, instead of 5, and double the revenue?


    These guys don't even get *OLD ESTABLISHED CONCEPTS* let alone "new fangled concepts." Pearlman's response is that if you double the price, you cut the sales by more than half, so you actually DECREASE your revenue.

    They just don't get it. [I'm not saying Pearlman is necessarily right with the .05$ price point, but the "industry type" missed the entire point of the talk!]
    --
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  8. Clearly doesn't understand IT costs by BlakeCaldwell · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Mr. Pearlman seems to understand economics pretty well, but not IT. Here's the breakdown of an ITunes purchase of $0.99:

    Label(s): $0.55
    Apple: $0.34
    Artist(s): $0.10

    Now, let's chop that down to $0.05 instead of $0.99. Let's break it down this way:

    Label: $0.03
    Apple: $0.02
    Artist: $0.1

    So, when a customer goes to ITunes, they'll surf through several (large)-database-driven webpages to find the songs they want. They'll make a purchase against their already-paid-for credit through ITunes (of probably $10 increments), then download the 5MB song.

    So, Apple now has to run power-hungry servers with a large staff of IT guys making sure they're patched and running correctly. They gotta hit customers' credit cards and give probably 5-10% back to the credit card company.

    All of this... for $0.02 per song?!?

    His model makes sense, but maybe for $0.25 per song... there's no chance Apple would make money by giving up that much bandwidth.

    just my $0.02.

  9. really now? by LiquidMind · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "...Pearlman was careful to add, though, that he doesn't see his plan killing off demand for CDs."

    *BLANK* CDs maybe.

    i mean $.05 x 13 songs = $.65
    factor in $.25 for a blank CD and voila, that's still under a dollar. Unless they plan on *severely* reducing the price of retail CDs, I don't quite see that working out.

    --
    This sig contains repetition and redundancy.
  10. Canada's Laws favorable... by Fox_1 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    This is kinda of a neat statement without a lot of explanation behind it. We do have entities in place which collect revenue on behalf of the artists from different industries that benifit from the artist work. The big example is the tax on blank cd's. It sucks that I pay extra for a cd that may hold pictures instead of songs, but I'm also not blind, 1/2 of my fiances music cd collection is burned cd's. I'm also paying a fee so a DJ can play music at the wedding to some organization that gives money back to the artists. There are other little quirks and decisions made by the gov't here and courts. In December 2003, the Canadian Copyright Board stated that downloading music was legal. They also went on to say that sharing would still be considered illegal.


    Here is a site that tries to give more information on our favorable laws
    The Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic

    --
    The rock, the vulture, and the chain
  11. Free doesn't always win - Re:No matter what ... by jackDuhRipper · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Getting music is only "free" if your time and effort are worthless: if it's easier, faster and of higher quality to get the new Beck record from iTunes , it's worth it to purchase legitimately than to try and get it other ways.

    Much like the scheme presented in the article, please remember that the "free" file sharing networks requires a broad base of participants to make them run. The utility of the "free" networks improves or deteriorates based on the numbers of people engaged in the activity of sharing freely:

    even at US$.99, I would bet there has been an affect on the quality/quantity/availability of music on the "free" sharing networks. Presumably, that would deteriorate further if "legitimate" online services appealed to an even broader audience (as some or all of that broader audience would likely participate less in the "free" networks).

  12. Re:Yep. And it is called.... by HuguesT · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The point is that the RIAA aren't a monopoly any more. They are competing with "free" downloads.

    The other points are that "free" downloads are not free. You need to spend time searching for songs, wading through the crap, learning new tools as the RIAA fight the old ones, and there is a risk of getting caught, etc.

    The final point of the article is that legal music distributors can regain the advantage if they offer a cheap, quality service as a competition to the eDonkeys of the world.

    Hence there is competition going on, and as long as the RIAA doesn't understand it at that level, the situation will not improve for them.

  13. Has the music industry taken Econ 101 though? by metamatic · · Score: 4, Insightful
    As you increase price, you decrease volume. There is always a sweet spot that maximizes profit.

    Well, I don't know about you, but my perception is that the music industry is way over to the right of the "sweet spot" on the sales-against-price graph. I hardly ever buy CDs these days, because I hardly ever see them for a price I'm willing to pay.

    When Mute Records released a sizeable chunk of their back-catalog for under $10, I sent in a $150 order--as opposed to a $0 order while the prices were $15 and up.

    As I wrote to a record store owner who was wondering how he could stay in business: I could easily put together a list of ten CDs I'd buy tomorrow if they were $10 or less. But they're not, so I spend $0 and wait for a sale.

    --
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