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The End of Mathematical Proofs by Humans?

vivin writes "I recall how I did a bunch of Mathematical Proofs when I was in high school. In fact, proofs were an important part of Math according to the CBSE curriculum in Indian Schools. We were taught how to analyze complex problems and then break them down into simple (atomic) steps. It is similar to the derivation of a Physics formula. Proofs form a significant part of what Mathematicians do. However, according to this article from the Economist, it seems that the use of computers to generate proofs is causing mathematicians to 're-examine the foundations of their discipline.' However, critics of computer-aided proofs say that the proofs are hard to verify due to the large number of steps and hence, may be inherently flawed. Defenders of the same point out that there are non computer-aided proofs that are also rather large and unverifiable, like the Classification of Simple Finite Groups. Computer-aided proofs have been instrumental in solving some vexing problems like the Four Color Theorem."

124 of 549 comments (clear)

  1. Science by AI by MaDeR · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think that in far future all science will be done by AI, because knowledge will be too complicated and complex to understand for even most inteligent human on chemical boost/genetic engineered/stuffed with chips.

    --
    What modern Obelix would say today? Of course, "Those crazy Americans!".
    1. Re:Science by AI by FleaPlus · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This reminds me of a Nature paper from last year:

      Functional genomic hypothesis generation and experimentation by a robot scientist

      The question of whether it is possible to automate the scientific process is of both great theoretical interest and increasing practical importance because, in many scientific areas, data are being generated much faster than they can be effectively analysed. We describe a physically implemented robotic system that applies techniques from artificial intelligence to carry out cycles of scientific experimentation. The system automatically originates hypotheses to explain observations, devises experiments to test these hypotheses, physically runs the experiments using a laboratory robot, interprets the results to falsify hypotheses inconsistent with the data, and then repeats the cycle. Here we apply the system to the determination of gene function using deletion mutants of yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) and auxotrophic growth experiments. We built and tested a detailed logical model (involving genes, proteins and metabolites) of the aromatic amino acid synthesis pathway. In biological experiments that automatically reconstruct parts of this model, we show that an intelligent experiment selection strategy is competitive with human performance and significantly outperforms, with a cost decrease of 3-fold and 100-fold (respectively), both cheapest and random-experiment selection.


      New Scientist also had an article on it: "Robot scientist outperforms humans in lab."

    2. Re:Science by AI by Zork+the+Almighty · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well at least in regards to math, I stongly doubt that this will ever be the case. Mathematics is developed over decades and centuries. With a few notable exceptions, it doesn't just fall out of the sky in textbook form. Most areas of math started out as a giagantic mess (ex; calculus, linear algebra, even geometry), and it has taken the work of countless researchers, authors, and teachers to distill and refine it. This process will continue, and it is inevitable that the subjects which baffle us today will be hammered out and taught to grade school students eventually. Well developed theory makes mathematics easier, and this in turn fuels new discoveries.

      --

      In Soviet America the banks rob you!
    3. Re:Science by AI by Poltras · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I think that even if we are taught the solutions in highschool, some proofs in the future might not be provable by humans.

      We'll have to agree to the result and learn it, without knowing if it is true. Some proof will become impossibly large and complex, and with it will bring theorems that are more complex but still understandable... yet further proofs will be based on those theorem, and so on.

      So yes, I think the theorems proven this way will be taught in highschool, but not the proofs in theirselves. After all, everyone has a limit, we just need to find the global limit to humankind, which comes closer and closer with the use of the computer.

    4. Re:Science by AI by rookworm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I concur. Math will always be about insight. The best math is simple and shows why the result is true. Most mathemeticians are unsatisfied by the four-colour proof because it does not satisfy these two conditions. Even if computers are eventually able to discover such proofs, mathematicians will still have to ask the computers to search for them. We must remember that problems like solving certain differential equations used to be difficult and involved, but now thanks to computers, we don't have to worry about them as much. The same will apply for very specialized results. The big theorems will still be up to humans to prove. Think of computer- assisted math as a kind of spellchecker or Googe suggest. Computers replacing mathematicians completely is about as far-off as computers replacing poets or historians.

      --
      The toad can't burp - and for some reason can't fart either, so it swells up and eventually explodes. --Anonymous Coward
    5. Re:Science by AI by Cyberax · · Score: 5, Informative

      Well, Economist should learn some REAL math. The first thing they should learn is math logic.

      It has been PROVEN (and it's a well-known fact) that it's impossible to create a Turing machine which will determine if a given expression is true or false (see Incompleteness theorem for details).

      For example, it's impossible to find answer to CH (continuum hypotesis) in ZFC (Zermelo-Fraenkel + Choice axiomatics).

      In short: some problems can't be solved in existing theories, they require creating a new theories with new axioms. It's non-formalizable process (it's also proven), so no computer can do this.

    6. Re:Science by AI by mangu · · Score: 3, Interesting
      it has taken the work of countless researchers, authors, and teachers to distill and refine it.


      What you and others fail to grasp is that computers are evolving rapidly, human brains aren't. Our current computers are still far from having the data processing capability of a human brain.


      In rough orders of magnitude, a human brain has 1e11 neurons, with 1e3 synapses each, doing 1e2 operations per second. Considering that a neuron can be emulated by a multiply-add operation, we would need 1e16 such operations per second to emulate a human brain.


      A 3 GHz Pentium can do 1e10 floating point multiply-add operations per second, so a human brain is roughly equivalent to one million desktop computers. Therefore, Moore's law tells us that we still need 30 years of progress before we have a human-equivalent computer, but in 60 years a desktop computer will have the data processing power of a million human brains.


      We have absolutely no way to predict the consequences of this. But I'm sure that, unless we connect our brains directly to computers, we will be left hopelessly behind.

    7. Re:Science by AI by dynamol · · Score: 3, Informative

      It is quite a large step to go from raw computing power to intteligence. Sure computers will eventually have way more processing power than we humans do..hell they do right now if you assign them to a certain task, but that is a far cry from being intellent. With that said I do side with the camp that says computers will do most mathematical proofs in the coming decades...why? Because researchers will find a way to get computers focused on this task...and as I already mentioned computers are way more powerful than our brains on a focused task.

    8. Re:Science by AI by plupster · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Never ever is a long time... To quote from the excellent book (I just started reading) Artificial Intelligence: A modern approach

      Even if we grant that computers have limitations on what they can prove, there is no evidence that humans are immune from those limitations. It is all too easy to show rigorously that a formal system cannot do X, and then claim that humans can do X using their own informal method, without giving evidence for this claim.
    9. Re:Science by AI by Sara+Chan · · Score: 2, Interesting
      In rough orders of magnitude, a human brain has 1e11 neurons, with 1e3 synapses each, doing 1e2 operations per second. Considering that a neuron can be emulated by a multiply-add operation, we would need 1e16 such operations per second to emulate a human brain.

      A 3 GHz Pentium can do 1e10 floating point multiply-add operations per second, so a human brain is roughly equivalent to one million desktop computers. Therefore, Moore's law tells us that we still need 30 years of progress before we have a human-equivalent computer, but in 60 years a desktop computer will have the data processing power of a million human brains.

      If this is right, then the 1e5 networked computers that are currently used by Google are a tenth of the way there. And 1e4 networked computers (available at some other institutions) are 1% of the way there.

      So, if you're right (and I'm not saying you are or aren't), and we just need to work on software to take advantage of the hardware, then it is really pretty scary.

    10. Re:Science by AI by Rune+Berge · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yeah, right. The great AI machine will be delivered in the same week as my flying car. Taking orders now, please form an orderly queue.

      According to rumors it will be bundled with Duke Nukem Forever.

    11. Re:Science by AI by computational+super · · Score: 3, Funny

      On the flip side, according to my calculations, I lost e3 neurons, e1 synapses, and e0.5 operations per second to beer last weekend alone. That almost never happens to a computer.

      --
      Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
    12. Re:Science by AI by Slime-dogg · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Who's to say that neurons operate in the same way as a computer's multiple-add operations? Another little problem is that you'll need additional programming to tell the computer how to emulate the communication and interaction between neurons. I imagine that this would take far more processing power than we could ever achieve.

      We may be able to emulate the parts, but you can't just throw the parts together in a heap and expect it to work. The sum of the parts is far more complicated than the parts themselves.

      --
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    13. Re:Science by AI by jhobbs · · Score: 2, Funny
      If this is right, then the 1e5 networked computers that are currently used by Google are a tenth of the way there.
      Tommorrow's Headline: Googlebot declares self world ruler, buys Graceland
    14. Re:Science by AI by mdwh2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It has been PROVEN (and it's a well-known fact) that it's impossible to create a Turing machine which will determine if a given expression is true or false

      Surely you mean it's impossible to create a turing machine that will determine if all expressions are true or false - ie, that there will always exist an expression that cannot be proved or disproved? I don't see how this prevents a computer proving or disproving a statement where such a proof exists.

      Also I don't see how a turing machine is different to a human. We can't prove whether the continuum hypothesis is true or not in ZFC, that doesn't mean that we can't prove things at all.

    15. Re:Science by AI by Jagasian · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes you are grossly incorrect. Most neural networks do not scale, and in fact perform best when they are smaller in size. Furthermore, they are such a gross approximation of a human's neurons that they don't really model them at all. Finally, neural networks do a very simple and basic operation, typically they associate a numerical value with another numerical value. There is allot more to intelligence than that!

    16. Re:Science by AI by tgibbs · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It has been PROVEN (and it's a well-known fact) that it's impossible to create a Turing machine which will determine if a given expression is true or false (see Incompleteness theorem [wikipedia.org] for details).

      This actually is more about the limitations of logic than the limitations of computers. Indeed, Godel's Incompleteness Theorem has nothing to do with computers--it is a proof that in any system of logic (that meets some very broad criteria) there must exist statements that are true but that cannot be derived from the postulates of the system by any sequence of logical steps. Adding additional axioms does not solve this; there always remain unprovable propositions. This limitation applies to proofs by humans as well as proofs computers. However, the fact that there are some theorems that cannot be proved does not mean that there are not many others that can be.

      However, the fact that there are some truths that are literally inaccessible from the postulates certainly suggests that there may be others that are accessible only by a very large number of steps, effectively requiring computers. I wonder if anybody has ever attempted to prove this?

    17. Re:Science by AI by thuh+Freak · · Score: 2, Funny
      Computers replacing mathematicians completely is about as far-off as computers replacing poets or historians.

      hey, don't ruin my hopes and dreams.

      --
      I wish that I was a catfish.
    18. Re:Science by AI by FuzzyDaddy · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The point of the undecidability theorem is that mathematics is not merely a set a formal rules. Pre-Godel, there was a move (for example in the Principia Mathematica) to formalize the proof process and reduce mathematics to a mechanical exercise. Godel showed that a human intuition of what the symbols meant was meaningful.

      In the case of the continuum hypothesis, mathematicians are hoping to come up with and axiom that "sounds true" and makes sense that will settle the question. This is Godel's legacy - that we can think about whether an axiom is "right", and that mathematics is no purely an excercise in manipulating symbols by fixed rules.

      That's the difference between humans and today's computers. We can't prove the continuum hypothesis with the existing axioms either, but perhaps we can find a "good" axiom that will resolve the question.

      That being said, a great deal of mathematics is manipulating symbols by fixed rules. Originally we talked about "computations" - manipulating numbers. Then we moved on to algebraic equation solvers and other symbol manipulation (a la Mathematica or MathCAD), and have now extended it to the range of mathematical proof. This is an important change in mathematics, but not the end human participation in it.

      --
      It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
    19. Re:Science by AI by Cyberax · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yet we can prove that CH is _unprovable_ in ZFC, and this proof requires a whole new theory (theory of "forcing"). And it's impossible to automate the search for a new theory.

      Also, there is no general agorithm for proof searching: we can't just enumerate all true predicates in a given and we can't (generaly) determine if two predicates are equal.

      So computer is nowhere close to substitute a human.

    20. Re:Science by AI by astar · · Score: 2, Informative

      This thread tends to confuse provability with true, a distinction that Godel clarified. Godel's result applies to any interesting formal system, of which logic is one, The result is that in any interesting formal system, some things are unproveable but we believe them to be true and some things are proveable and their negation is proveable also. So it is hard to make the further claim that any formal system can be true.

      The continuum hypothesis, due to Cantor, has been shown, partly by Godel, to be consistent with the usual axioms, but not proveable. The continuum hypothesis is that the power set of the integers is equal to the number of points on a line. Godel spend his last years searching for the axiom to add to the standard axioms, such that the continuum hypothesis would be proveable.

      Godel was a Platoist and considered intuition to be necessary to mathematics, and his theorem is generally considered to prove this. One should be cautious in that intutition is a technical terms, and is a generalization of Kantian intuition.

      Here is my ideosyncric take. Timaeous by Plato lays down the claim generally called the hypothesis of the higher hypothesis. In case of contradiction, there is an axiom that can be added to resolve the contradiction. Godel says in effect, it is good there is such an axiom, since you have to add it. And the process of adding it involves creativity. Take this with a grain of salt, but Timaeous was a favorite of Godel.

      Regarding the limits of Godel's proof, it does not necessarily apply to infinitely large axiom sets. So perhaps God has an infinite axiom set, in contradiction to the usual claim that God does not use axioms.

    21. Re:Science by AI by danila · · Score: 3, Informative

      Wrong.

      The theorem says that there are either true unprovable things or things that are both provable and provable to be false. An interesting formal system is either incomplete or contradictory (it can be both, but it doesn't have to).

      --
      Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
    22. Re:Science by AI by FuzzyDaddy · · Score: 2, Interesting
      incompleteness theorem basically says that those additional axioms are every bit as good as their opposites

      Axioms don't usually have opposites. That's what makes deciding on good axioms non trivial. The parallel postulate has two possible replacements, leading to two different geometries. Neither is the opposite of the other. You could try to come up with more axioms (through every point not on a line there are exactly three lines parallel to the original line), but they might not lead to a logically consistent structure.

      Axioms are not arbitrary!

      --
      It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
    23. Re:Science by AI by sixpaw · · Score: 2, Informative
      However, the fact that there are some truths that are literally inaccessible from the postulates certainly suggests that there may be others that are accessible only by a very large number of steps, effectively requiring computers. I wonder if anybody has ever attempted to prove this?
      Yes; in fact, this is true for even very simple logical systems. Presburger Arithmetic (the theory of integers with addition but no multiplication) has theorems that can only be decided in double-exponential time -- i.e., O(2^2^(kn)), where n is the length of the theorem in question. Here's Wikipedia's page on it.
    24. Re:Science by AI by jerald_hams · · Score: 2, Informative

      I see these brain-computer processing power comparisons on slashdot often, and they make me cringe.

      The brain is *not* a serial computer, and cannot be compared to one in any meaningful way.

      1) Parallel computations cannot necessarily be simulated on a serial computer. (http://www.andrewboucher.com/papers/parallel.htm)

      2) Why do you assume that a neuron can be simulated with a multiply-add operation? Even if the perceptron model of the neuron, where a scalar output is the linear combination of scalar inputs, had anything to do with the brain (which it almost certainly doesn't), you'd need a variable-length addition (between 1 and 100,000 inputs). Furthermore, to make the perceptron useful, you need some form of non-linear transformation on the output.

      3) Many of the 1e11 cells you're including in your calculation are used for specific, non-conscious tasks.

      4) What about the 1e13 neuroglia, whose function is still poorly understood, but have been shown to have an active role in the brain's activity? (reacting to and initiating neural activity)

      5) 1e2 "operations per seconds" (firing rate?). Action potentials are not operations performed on data, they are the data.

      Ugh, I could go on for a while...

      But please, please....the brain != serial computer. The brain is not comparable to a serial computer. And they can be compared, no one today knows enough to do it. So stop.

    25. Re:Science by AI by hawkfish · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Who's to say that neurons operate in the same way as a computer's multiple-add operations?
      Indeed.
      --
      You will not drink with us, but you would taste our steel? - Walter Matthau, The Pirates
    26. Re:Science by AI by danila · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No, this is basically bullshit. Penrose allows his irrational belief to determine his science, which is a big no-no for a scientist. He postulated that human mind is not a computer and grasps every straw to show how it might potentiall be so. Since he is a renowned and respected mathematician, his views are given a modicum of respect, just sufficient to guarantee he will not shut up for about 20-30 more years (by then we will probably have self-conscious strong AI that passes the Turing test and more).

      This particular argument is patently stupid, but again, since Penrose has a big name, he gets away with it. The argument is as follows. Take two tiles that can fill the plane in a unique aperiodic way (one of Penrose's achievements was coming up with such things). Give an infinite amount of such tiles to a human and a "computer". Ask them to start tiling the plane and then ask whether the tiles can in fact tile the whole plane. Since the mosaic is aperiodical, according to Penrose the computer will not see a pattern, but a human will (the pattern being that you could always add a tile (as far as you tried), so the plane must be tileable). Penrose explains this by saying that humans have some magical "human consciousness" that allows them to have some "insight" about the world, to "understand" it, while computer doesn't have it. He then proceeds to explain this with some crackpot theories about quantum effects in microtubules in the human neurons, which is total bullshit, but again, his big name allows him to get away with spouting such garbage.

      His argument is, of course, wrong. Humans can easily see patterns, because we were programmed to see them. This, of course, doesn't mean that we are always correct, when we believe there is a pattern. For example, consider the following sequence of numbers: 1, 3, 5, 7... Is there a pattern? If you think I listed odd numbers, you are wrong. It could have been a year, it could have been some random digits, it could have been a part of a different sequence, etc.

      If monkeys could understand what an Euclidean plane is, they could reach the same conclusions as humans just as quickly. 1) You place a tile, it fits. 2) You place another, it fits. Repeat 10 times. Wow, it must be a magical pattern! This is just a heuristic that we humans have. The conclusions it helps us come to are not necessarily correct. We are not better than computers in solving the halting problem. It's just that too often we are willing to shout the answer, before we can be reasonably sure. Of course, sometimes we are lucky and the answer is correct. But we can program a computer to do just the same - it will gain the magical ability to "understand" and "see" the answer, at the price of often being completely wrong.

      Penrose is just a persistent moron, don't listen to him.

      --
      Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
  2. Critics Reaction... by Suhas · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...From TFA if a computer is used to make this reduction, then the number of small, obvious steps can be in the hundreds of thousands--impractical even for the most diligent mathematician to check by hand. Critics of computer-aided proof claim that this impracticability means that such proofs are inherently flawed.

    So basically what they are saying is that if the proof is too long to be checked, then it is flawed? WTF?

    1. Re:Critics Reaction... by damieng · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, thats right.

      If you can't independently examine and verify your "proof" then how can it be considered proof of anything?

      --
      [)amien
    2. Re:Critics Reaction... by wwahammy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Flawed in the sense it can't be peer reviewed to be "proven." It could be true but because it can't be independently verified then its not a proof because you can't prove it. Now whether this is truly a situation where a proof is unprovable or just people reacting to the thought of their profession being eliminating by technology is another debate entirely.

    3. Re:Critics Reaction... by MonMotha · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A mathematical proof is nothing but a manner of convincing someone (other mathematicians) that what you assert is indeed correct, given the following presumably known, accepted as true, or otherwise previously proven "things". The whole point of a proof is that someone else knows wtf it is talking about.

      I could assert that 2+2=4. You may believe me, but have I really proven it to you? Not yet, so you don't need to believe me. If I instead say that the the cardinality of the union of two disjoint sets, each of cardinality 2, is 4, then I've (sort of) showed you that 2+2=4, assuming you accept my definitions of disjoint sets, set union, and set cardinality (which presumably I've proven elsewhere, or taken from some other source). Now do you believe me that 2+2=4?

      I could assert anything. You may or may not know if it's true. A proof is just something to back up my assertion and convince you that I'm right. Hence, if a proof is unintelligable, it's pretty darn worthless.

    4. Re:Critics Reaction... by Zork+the+Almighty · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Whether or not something is a proof is entirely our distinction to make. We choose the axioms on which the proof is based. To paraphrase Bill Klem (a famous umpire): when asked whether a pitch was a ball or a strike, "It isn't anything until I call it".

      --

      In Soviet America the banks rob you!
    5. Re:Critics Reaction... by Sloppy · · Score: 2, Funny

      Just write a program to check it. :-)

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    6. Re:Critics Reaction... by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Of course then you still have to proof that your program for proof checking is correct.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    7. Re:Critics Reaction... by spagetti_code · · Score: 4, Informative
      Many proofs have been thought to have been found, only to be proven wrong years later. And that was only after years of study my mathematicians of the time. For example, from the article: this particular puzzle was twice 'solved' only to be 'unsolved' 11 years later. Consider also Wilkes proof for fermats conjecture - it was proven wrong and had to be redone.

      So the question is - how are we going to prove/disprove a computer program that proves a theorem? Program complexity has meant that all but the most trivial programs cannot be 'proven'.

      The solution, it seems to me, is per the article: get the s/w to output a series of steps using formal logic. Any series of formal logic steps should be confirmable by a 'formal logic validator', and that is the only program we need to prove correct. That will be non-trivial, but will then open the floodgates to any hacked up piece of code to be used to generate provable logic.

    8. Re:Critics Reaction... by gorrepati · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So basically what they are saying is that if the proof is too long to be checked, then it is flawed? WTF? Nope, that is not what they mean. If the proof cannot be verified, there is no gaurantee that the proof is correct

      --
      You will never have experience until after you needed it.
    9. Re:Critics Reaction... by A+beautiful+mind · · Score: 4, Informative
      Um. A mathematical proof is just a sequence. It doesn't have to be accepted to be true. According to the axiomatic method of proving ,you just need these things:
      • An abc (not THE abc, just one)
      • formulas
      • derivation rules
      An axiom is just a derivation rule which derives from the empty set.

      Basically, a proof is, according to the axiomatic method, is just a non-infinite sequence of formulas, which can be created by the allowed derivation rules. The whole point is that a proof for A HUMAN, and mathematical proof is different. The axiomatic system is not perfect, either. The whole Hilbert-plan is proven to be impossible to be done, thus it is not possible to prove that there are no contradictions in the axiomatic system

      I think the "MUI" axiom system is commonly used to demonstrate how it works, basically. It is too lengthy, and i'm lazy.
      --
      It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
      Be yourself no matter what they say
    10. Re:Critics Reaction... by nikitad · · Score: 5, Informative

      If mathematical proofs were "nothing but a manner of convincing someone", how could it be verifiable by a computer?

      Fully formal mathematical proofs depend on nothing but ability to distinguish characters, to compare text strings, and to perform substring substitution.

      To your example (2 + 2 = 4). In formal arithmetics, based on Peano axioms, there is one primary operator, let's call it s:N -> N, and s(n) is interpreted as (n + 1). "2" is _defined_ as s(1). 3 is defined as s(2), and 4 is defined as s(3). So one has to prove that s(1) + s(1) = s(s(s(1))).

      By definition of addition (remember, addition is not fundamental notion in the formal arithmetics, it's defined in terms of s-operator), a + s(b) = s(a + b), and a + 1 = s(a), so we have

      s(s(1) + 1) = s(s(s(1))),
      s(s(s(1))) = s(s(s(1)))

      Q.E.D.

      So, where proof above depends on anything but mechanically verifiable string manipulations?

      P.S., of course mathematical formulae are not strings, but rather trees, but this doesn't change a bit.

    11. Re:Critics Reaction... by g1t>>v · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes but a "correct mathematical proof" only establishes truth relative to the axiom system used. Because how will you ever prove that the axioms are true? (That's why they're called axioms---you cannot prove them and just have to assume the're "true".) In other words, there's no such thing as "absolute truth". (This is what Hilbert meant when he defined mathematics as "Mathematics is that subject in which we do not know what we are talking about, nor whether what we say is true.")

    12. Re:Critics Reaction... by dissy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      > By programming my computer to independently examine and verify the proof. Done
      > properly, the instructions for a computer to verify a proof can be a lot simpler
      > than verifying the proof itself.

      But even multiple computers performing a verify isn't _truly_ a verification.

      After all, how long did the Pentium division bug go _unnoticed_???

      Looks like the chip was released on March 22, 1993
      and the bug was reported on October 30, 1994

      Over a year and a half worth of time any/all such verifications obtained with the newest intel computers at the time were WRONG.

      And any guesses how they even found this bug??
      It was a human, not another buggy computer, that had to verify the data.

      Yes computers can do things faster, but ever underestimate the power of truly knowing what your doing, which so far, a computer can't grasp at all, let alone do as well as the human mind.

    13. Re:Critics Reaction... by g1t>>v · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In general, it is impossible to prove that such a 'formal logic validator' is correct since it is not possible to prove that an axiom system is correct inside that axiom system (one of Goedel's theorems). So if you would find a proof that your validator is correct, you'd have used reasoning techniques outside the logic of your validator, and do you believe those? (If so, why didn't you include them in the validator, since now your validator clearly does not support a reasoning technique you considered valid in the first place!)

      Basically, at a certain point, you just have to "believe" that your axioms, logic, whatever you call it, is consistent. Because to prove it, you'd again need axioms, a logic, etcetera, ad infinitum.

    14. Re:Critics Reaction... by Sique · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's not that easy. Fundamentally the mathematical proof consists in something else than the actual running of the program.

      The question is if the output of the program is equivalent to the problem you want to prove. Your proof actually consists of verifying that "Program Output is A" is only true if "Statement B is true" is true.

      (It's not necessary to prove also the reverse notion. "Statement B is true" doesn't need to implicate that "Program Output is A". Imagine a program that prints out "A" if it is 8pm. Then imagine the statement being "The long hand of the clock points to the 12". If the program prints out "A", then you can be sure that statement to be true for a correctly running clock.)

      In the end those proofs (Program Output is A -> Statement B is true) are as peer reviewable as any other proof.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    15. Re:Critics Reaction... by grumbel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why? I mean you don't prove that the human verifing the proof is 'correct' either. And well, I for one think that humans make quite a lot more random errors then computers. So I don't see why you have to proof the computer, but not the human.

      One should of course ensure that the programm is correct and all as good as possible, but I don't see much difference between a proof verified by a bunch of independently written computer programms and a proof verified by a bunch of humans.

    16. Re:Critics Reaction... by Len+Budney · · Score: 5, Informative

      If you can't independently examine and verify your "proof" then how can it be considered proof of anything?

      That's easy. Speaking as a PhD mathematician, there's nothing disturbing at all about these computer proofs. They're examples in which a computer was programmed to generate a perfectly standard proof, except that it's extremely long.

      Checking the proof is not hard: it suffices to verify that the program emits only correct inferences. That's nothing more than a standard human-generated proof. In addition, a verifier can be coded by someone other than the original author, to check the validity of the inferences generated by the first program. The checker's algorithm can also be verified using a standard human proof, and would be used to confirm that a bug didn't result in an incorrect proof.

      Note that Gödel's incompleteness theorem has nothing to do with these programs: they don't generate all possible proofs. They only generate one specific type of proof per program. Each program is easy to verify.

      You could call the software correctness proofs "meta-proofs", but that's just being coy. They're perfectly legitimate proofs, and they are sufficient to prove the correctness of proofs generated by the program.

    17. Re:Critics Reaction... by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      While you don't actually proof the human (you can't, of course), you do generally take steps to ensure that you don't rely on humans with faulty logic.

      For example, if some random student would come and say "I looked at the proof, and I think it is OK", then you wouldn't give it as much weight as if some mathematician who clearly has proven his profound use of logic in several papers goes through the same proof and says "everything is OK." And for at least some time, the computer program would be more like the random student, unless you can proof it works OK (of course this proof may be wrong as well, but it's another line of defense; 100% certainty is unfortunately not possible, even in math).

      Of course the situation is different if the program does find an error in the proof. Then you have a very narrow point to look at, and checking if the program is right in saying that step is wrong is probably not too difficult. Unfortunately this means bugs which cause wrong proofs to be judged as right will be much harder to detect than bugs which cause correct proofs to be judged wrong.

      Note that again this parallels the random student situation: If the random student comes and says "there's an error in the proof, you cannot follow blah from blubb", then checking if the student is right should be relatively easy (just look at the proof and see if that particular step is really wrong).

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    18. Re:Critics Reaction... by PDAllen · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It is very easy to produce a validator which correctly classifies valid and invalid proofs written in formal logic. It is very easy to prove that the validator does what it is meant to do.

      We don't know whether this abstract formal logic thing actually has any resemblance to the real world - that is not Goedel's theorem, which assumes logic to be valid and discusses potentially interesting frameworks for mathematics. Whether formal logic 'works' is simply something you have to believe, you cannot argue it, for the obvious reason. Whether you can use formal logic to demonstrate that your mathematical axioms are consistent is not obvious; Goedel's theorem states that in fact whenever your mathematical axioms are strong enough to produce interesting mathematics, you cannot demonstrate consistency.

      The reason why mathematicians do not like computer proofs (as much as normal proofs, anyway) and do not like computer validation (always) are:

      Computer proofs tend not to give any insight into why a statement is true. They simply check vast numbers of cases, when there might exist a simple argument which gives understanding. However, there is usually interesting mathematics involved in reducing the original problem to something which can be computer checked.

      It is not easy to produce a program which will verify a proof written by a normal person, in the same way that it is hard to write a program which can spot contradictions in any argument written in natural English.

      An argument written out in formal logic, although easy to verify for a computer, is generally much, much longer than the same argument written by a normal person, and even if you wanted to read the telephone-directory sized proof, the interesting ideas are so dispersed that you would gain no understanding from the proof.

      So, a computer verifier would only be useful when a proof is written in formal logic - which only a computer would do for a proof of any interesting statement. But the computer proof won't give a mathematician any understanding of why the statement is true, so the mathematician doesn't like it. Furthermore, because formal logic is so long-winded, it doesn't seem likely that a computer will ever be able to prove interesting statements by doing a simple bash out formal logic until it works approach. IMO, a computer program which can prove interesting mathematical statements in sensible amounts of time will be about as hard to write (and probably not too dissimilar to) a Turing-capable program.

    19. Re:Critics Reaction... by TedCheshireAcad · · Score: 2, Informative

      Do you have a proof for 1=1?

      = is an equivalence relation which is, by definition, reflexive.

    20. Re:Critics Reaction... by danila · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Your belief in the POWER OF THE HUMAN BRAIN is really funny. In reality you don't "truly knowing what your doing", no human does. It's just that we have evolved neat modules that "pretend" to know what we are doing. There are millions of people with serious brain damage. There are hundreds of millions of people with minor brain damage. There are billions with poorly working brains. When we think we know what we are doing, we are just executing our complex survival programs.

      Read The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat or one of the many other amuzing (and amazing) books about our imperfect minds. If there can be a guy (apparently self-conscious, intelligent and normal), who can't tell the difference between his life-long female companion and a hat, how can you be sure that a particual mathematician can tell the difference between a correct step and a marginally and deceitfully incorrect? The answer - you can't. To err is human. Human verification is not inherently better than computer verification and in the future (as computers improve) it will gradually become worse.

      --
      Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
    21. Re:Critics Reaction... by PDAllen · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Mathematics _can be_ formalised. But no-one writes mathematics that way. First, because when a mathematician finds he has a proof the first thing on his mind is to publish ASAP to stop anyone else getting there first and taking all the credit, second because in practice writing in formal logic (or even mainly in formal logic) leads to long, boring, unclear proofs which do not enhance reputation the way a relatively short clear proof does. A boring proof is a sequence of equations and formal logic; this sort of thing is really only used when proving a little lemma that's almost obvious anyway. Most proofs will look something like the following (LaTeX) discussing a Frechet algebra F; B_n are the Banach algebras associated to the seminorms of F, the pi_n are projections from F to B_n, the d_n are the chain maps between the B_n:

      \begin{lemma} We may naturally identify continuous homomorphisms to $\mathbb C$ from $F$ and from the $B_n$, and so write
      \[\Delta(F,\mathbb C)=\bigcup_{n=1}^{\infty}\Delta(B_n,\mathbb C)\]
      \end{lemma}
      \begin{proof}
      If $\theta:B_n\rightarrow \mathbb C$ is a continuous homomorphism then so is $\theta\circ d_n:B_{n+1}\rightarrow \mathbb C$. Since $d_n$ has dense range, different $\theta$ give different $\theta\circ d_n$ and we may identify $\theta$ with $\theta\circ d_n$. Since also $\pi_n$ has dense range, we may identify $\theta$ with $\theta\circ \pi_n$. This allows us to write
      \[\Delta(F)\supseteq\bigcup_{n=1}^{\infty}\ Delta(B _n)\]

      and it remains only to show that there are no extra continuous homomorphisms. \\

      Suppose then that $T$ is a continuous homomorphism from $F$ to $\mathbb C$. In particular, $T$ is continuous at $0$, i.e. there is an open neighbourhood $U$ of $0$ such that $|T|1$ on $U$. This set is open in the inverse limit topology, i.e. is the intersection of the inverse limit space and an open set in the cross product of the $B_n$ with the product topology. $U$ may be assumed to be a set in a basis for the topology, so that it is the intersection of the $\pi_j^{-1}(U_j)$ for some $U_j$ open in $B_j$, up to some finite n.

      Since the $d_j$ are continuous, however, this intersection must contain $\pi_n^{-1}(V)$ for $V$ an open neighbourhood of 0 in $B_n$, the intersection of the inverse images of the $U_j$. \\

      We now show that $T=\theta\circ \pi_n$ for some $\theta\in\Delta(B_n)$, i.e. that $T(a)$ depends only on $a_n$, or that if $a_n=0$ then $T(a)=0$: if $a_n=0$, then $ka_n=0$ for all $k$, so $ka \in \pi_n^{-1}(V)$, and $|T(ka)|1$, for all $k$. But then $|T(a)|=0$ as required.
      \end{proof}

    22. Re:Critics Reaction... by BritneySP2 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      long, boring, unclear proofs

      I do not suggest publishing only formalized proofs, or teaching mathemetics using formalized proofs. But if you have a "library" of formalized theorems (similar to having a library of subroutines), then it should be possible to translate your proof to a formal text that is not long, boring or unclear. And, in the end, you could add your new proof to the library!

      I believe that in time it will become the common practice, to publish both an "informal" and a formal proof.

      The realization of the striking similarity between proofs and algorithms will eventually make the complete formalization a natural part of the mathematical culture.

  3. Creativity by Daxx_61 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Much of mathematics isn't just grunt power, there is also a lot of creative work going on there. Without humans to drive the computers doing the work in the right directions, it could take a long time before a computer would be able to get its proof - it simply doesn't know what it is looking for.

    I for one welcome our new robotic theorum proving overlords.

    --
    Quoth the server, "404."
    1. Re:Creativity by R.D.Olivaw · · Score: 4, Funny

      especially when we already know the answer it's looking for. 42

    2. Re:Creativity by Zork+the+Almighty · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Without humans to drive the computers doing the work in the right directions, it could take a long time before a computer would be able to get its proof - it simply doesn't know what it is looking for.

      To some extent that's true, except in areas where human understanding has reduced mathematical proof to a mechanical process. For example, verifying algebraic identities, or even geometric proofs. A more advanced example is the Risch algorithm for elementary integration. It amounts to a proof that an integral either is or is not expressible in terms of elementary functions. Eventually we come to understand an area to such an extent that we can implement mechanical algorithms and move on. The proper role of the computer is to carry out these algorithms, so that we can use them to discover something else.

      --

      In Soviet America the banks rob you!
  4. If computers could write proofs... by John+Allsup · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Short, sweet, beautiful proofs of interesting and useful theorems, I would welcome them to do so with open arms.

    As a tool to produce vast quantities of precise logical porridge quickly, computers have no equal in today's world, yet that is not what real mathematical proofs should be about.

    Mathematical proofs should show short, clever ways of connecting otherwise disparate concepts that are only obvious in hindsight. This is where computers will always be weaker.

    --
    John_Chalisque
    1. Re:If computers could write proofs... by Dancin_Santa · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Mathematical proofs should show short, clever ways of connecting otherwise disparate concepts that are only obvious in hindsight. This is where computers will always be weaker.

      So you're saying that even a theoretical sufficiently advanced computer would be unable to match the logic and creativity of a human being? I think a simple brute force counter written in Mathematica (unlimited integer lengths) whose output was executed by a CPU would prove you wrong.

      Computers can separate wheat from chaff. That's what AI is all about. No, seamless human interaction is still a ways off, but as for number crunching, the ability to compare large, disparate sets, and logical "thinking", computers are vastly more well-suited to the task than humans in every respect.

    2. Re:If computers could write proofs... by Hideyoshi · · Score: 4, Funny
      Computers can separate wheat from chaff. That's what AI is all about.
      Which explains the glorious successes that subject has enjoyed in the last few decades ...
    3. Re:If computers could write proofs... by Sloppy · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Mathematical proofs should show short, clever ways of connecting otherwise disparate concepts that are only obvious in hindsight. This is where computers will always be weaker.
      Always be weaker? Some day, I think you'll eat those words.

      Getting a program working, is the first step. Making it optimize its output, is the next. I think you're going to see better proofs from computers.

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    4. Re:If computers could write proofs... by Dulimano · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The problem with human-made proofs is that there can be gaps and even faults in them. Proofs with hundreds of pages are full of sentences starting with "It's easy to see that X.". Most often X is indeed obviously true, sometimes it is not.

      The goal of computer-aided theorem proving is to eliminate all these gaps. The human prover sketches her proof for the computer in a formal language. If some steps are missing, the computer calls her attention to these. When the long interactive process is finished, we have a proof that does not have any ""It's easy to see"s and "Obviously"s in it. At this point, another human can check the proof. But there is really no good reason to believe that this other human is more adept at checking it than the computer itself.

      The proof of the Four Color Theorem was recently formalized by Georges Gonthier in this way.

      From a philosophical point of view, many arguments can be made. But from a practical point of view: If I have to choose between believing a 300 pages long proof written in an informal language (Fermat's Last Theorem by Wiles) and a 1000 pages long proof written in a formal language, verified by a computer, I will choose the second one anytime.

    5. Re:If computers could write proofs... by TuringTest · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Current AI doesn't show creativity at all. In theorem proving, 90% of the required creativity is already present in the stated goal (the theorem), the other 10% is the heuristics programmed to guide the automatic search.

      --
      Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
  5. Seems simpler to prove proffs-by-computer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Simply prove the program correct; and all its outputs will be correct?

    To do that.... well, just make sure the program was designed by a correct computer.

    1. Re:Seems simpler to prove proffs-by-computer by rxmd · · Score: 5, Informative
      Three major obstacles with this approach (which has been tried BTW):
      • Logical problems with proofs for correctness. For example, it has been proven that no program can prove itself correct.
      • Correctness proofs are hard to do and incredibly tedious. Have you ever tried it? And no, you can't have a program do them, because you'd have to prove this program correct, which sends you right back to square #1.
      • You'd have to prove all sorts of other factors correct, including the operating system and hardware your program is running on. This leads to another set of interesting problems, including that "correct hardware" is useful only as a theoretical concept. What's a "correct computer" if there's a small probability that bits will spontaneously flip in memory, for example?
      In short: while it might seem elegant to prove the prover, then have everything else proved by this prover, this approach has little value in practice.
      --
      As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
    2. Re:Seems simpler to prove proffs-by-computer by darkov · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I agree with (1), I believe Godel had a hand in that one.

      With (2), the program can reduce the tedium of proving the original proof in some cases. That's what computers are good at and are better at than humans. Proving the program may well be much easier. I would think that's why the researchers in the article used computers in the first place. If you program in C++ you will have a problem, but a functional or logic language program is straight-forward to prove (PROLOG programs are essentially the execution of a proof).

      With (3) you could show by running it on different hardware and software that the platforms did not affect the result by a huge probability. If you don't like the 'probability' bit, who says there isn't a human trait or gene that causes any human to get a proof wrong? Humans are imperfect too, but if enough of them agree, and they are qualified, then we agree that what they agree on is true. This is the same situation as the potentially flawed platforms problem.

  6. Here's a good theorem prover by carnivore302 · · Score: 4, Informative

    In the past, I've used the HOL Theorem Prover. It's a nice toy to play with if want to get started in this area.

    --
    Please login to access my lawn
  7. The best math is always elegant. by Pants75 · · Score: 5, Interesting
    That's what my math teacher always said, back in school. I'm sure he would extend that statement to include proofs, given that they are also just math.

    What about Fermats last theorem? Fermat wrote in the margin of his note book that he had a proof, but it was too large to fit there, so he'll write it on the next page. Trouble was, the next page was missing from the book.

    The modern proof for FLT took hundreds of pages of dense math and went through some math concepts that AFAIK hadn't even been invented in Fermats time.

    What was Fermats proof (if it existed)? It would surely have been far more elegant than the modern version.

    That doesn't make the modern version wrong, just less pure, I feel.

    The problem with modern computer aided proofs is they allow the proof to become unwieldy and overly verbose, compared to what it would have to be if just a human produced it.

    Such is progress I guess.

    1. Re:The best math is always elegant. by Craigj0 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Perhaps his proof was flawed and he realised it so he ripped the last page out?

    2. Re:The best math is always elegant. by PaschalNee · · Score: 4, Insightful
      For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. H. L. Mencken
    3. Re:The best math is always elegant. by Bazzalisk · · Score: 3, Informative

      In fact Ramanujan thought he had a proof, which would have been doable using only things known in Fermat's day and was short elegant and pretty.

      Unfortunately, as Hardy pointed out, that proof assumed that all Quadratic extensions of the rational numbers are Unique Factorisation domains - which isn't true ;-/

      It seems very likely that Fermat's proof was probably of a very similar sort.

      --
      James P. Barrett
    4. Re:The best math is always elegant. by kisak · · Score: 5, Informative
      What was Fermats proof (if it existed)? It would surely have been far more elegant than the modern version. That doesn't make the modern version wrong, just less pure, I feel.

      Mathematicians think they know what Fermat thought was the "proof" that he could not fit in the margin, since Fermat used a similar strategy for another problem. Euler was the one who used Fermat's strategy on Fermat's last theorem explicitly, and showed that it did not give a full proof as Fermat had hoped. It might be that Fermat himself tried and then gave up, or that he was happy to have "solved it" and looked for other things to prove.

      I think you (and most people) misunderstand the reason Fermat's last theorem has such a central place in math history. But first lets discuss the reason why the problem became so well known; it is because it is such an easy problem to state and to understand, still no one has been able to use "simple" math to prove it. Even Fermat himself thought the problem should be fairly straigth forward to solve, and it has made generations of people with curiosity for math look for proofs and even thinking they have found one. It is also a problem some of the greatest minds of math did not manage to solve. Fermat, Euler, Lagrange, Gauss, Abel, Riemann, etc have all had a try and did not solve it. Which math wanna-be wouldn't want to solve something this group of people did not manage?

      Now, even though this has made Fermat's problem something that has created a lot of publicity, the number one reason Fermat's problem has been important, is because of all the beautiful maths that have been discovered by mathematicians trying to solve it. Fermat's theorem in itself is not interesting. It is not like the Riemann hypothesis, which if proven to be false, will make much of modern maths not true or at least force mathematicians to look for new proofs. This is because you can prove much interesting stuff if you assume the Riemann's hypothesis is true, problem is of course, this is not yet proven. If Fermat's theorem was been shown to be not true, that would have been suprising, but would not made large parts of maths collapse.

      So, the modern proof of Fermat's theorem is the end of a long journey which has lead to some very deep mathematical knowledge, and in a way, Wiles' proof is much more interesting in its own right than that it also proofs that Fermat was right in his guess. A "simple" proof (watch out when mathematicians use the word simple or trivial) of Fermat's problem would give undeniable bragging rights, since you could say you solved a problem Gauss couldn't solve with the maths Gauss knew. But again, it probably would be more of a huge accomplishment for one person than a huge breakthrough in maths.

      A last comment; the reason Wiles' proof is long is not because math is verbose, far from it . It is because Wiles is able to connect what would seem to be two unconnected branches of mathematics, showing that problems in one of the branches can be restated as problems in the other. This is not something you do in a few pages. And the importance of it becomse clear, if you consider that what can be an unsolveable problem in the one branch of maths might be reformulated as a solveable problem in the other. Math is always about trying to find ways to solve something as simply as possible. Not something computers is very good at, so no Abel prize to Big Blue for a while I think.

      --

      --- guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people ---

  8. Computer _aided_ proofs by irexe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Computer proofs, like the graph color proof, are not proofs that are completely generated by a computer. The computer is merely used to brute force a fairly large number of 'special' cases which together account for all cases. The construction of the proofing method is and will remain human work, lest we create AI that matches our own I.In short, they are computer aided proofs only.

    Further and more importantly, at this point we do not have and are not likely to have a machine that can prove any provable theorem (and fyi, not all truths in mathematics are provable!).

    1. Re:Computer _aided_ proofs by g1t>>v · · Score: 2, Informative

      Then you'd better check your facts ... there must be dozens (if not hundreds---erhhh, speaking about checking ones facts :-) ) of systems in which mathematical theorems are routinely proved (HOL, PVS, Coq, Mizar to name just a few)!

    2. Re:Computer _aided_ proofs by mesterha · · Score: 2, Insightful

      (and fyi, not all truths in mathematics are provable!)

      This is wrong. It is based on a misunderstanding of Godel's proof that has been popularized by various authors.

      All truths in mathematics are provable. However, assuming our system of mathematical axioms is consistent, there are some statements that are neither true or false. These statements have not been determined by the axioms. Furthermore, for any computable set of mathematical axioms we choose, there are always some statements which are undecided. Godel proved this by coming up with a technique that always generated one of these undecided statements.

      --

      Chris Mesterharm
  9. Re:Godel/Turing/Cohen... by willmeister · · Score: 2, Informative

    I have no doubt that in 50 years (given current progress), creativity as we know it will be commonly implemented in advanced computers. Your brain is nothing more than a biologically advanced computer, complete with binary nerve signals and the works.

    Why can't human brain functions be copied and improved upon in circuitry, other than the currently prohibitive costs involved, and our failure to accurately determine the exact neuron mapping of anyone's brain. Even the dynamic neuron connections could be potentially emulated or mimiced by a computer.

  10. Are computer-aided proofs really proof? by Mattb90 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    During my preparation for my interview to study Mathematics at Cambridge last year, one of the discussion topics that came up was computer-aided proof. Between the interview-experienced teacher, a school colleague who was also applying and myself, we came to the idea that computer-aided proof might not be proof at all, because proof for Mathematicans is the ability to reproduce the workings by yourself - it might take a very long time, but the idea should be that a human could dervive them in order for them to be considered true proofs of human concepts. Whether many in the Mathematical community in England take this view, I won't know until the end of the year when I hope to start my course - but based on this debate, it wouldn't surprise me if quite a few did.

    --
    Mattb90
    Editor, allaboutgames.co.uk
  11. No progress without understanding by Freaky+Spook · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I remember how much I hated learning alegebra, trig, calculus etc & how much the theory sucked, I never saw any point to it & loved it when I discovered my TI-83 could do pretty much everything.

    Although I discovered easier ways to do the arithmatic, I still knew the underlying theory of the equations & what the numbers were actually doing, not just what a computer was telling me.

    Students should learn this, they are the basic building blocks of a science that dictates pretty much everything on this planet & although they won't have a use for everything they are taught they will have enough knowledge to "problem solve" which is what most of high school maths is designed to do, it trains our brains to think logically & be able to work out complex problems.

    How are people going to be able to further phsyics, medicine, biology if they get into their respective tertiary courses without understanding the basic principals of all science & have to learn it all over again??

    Or what about when computers just won't work & things have to be done by hand??

    Its fair to integrate comuters into maths but not at the expense of the theory that makes us understand how things work, we should not put all our faith in technology just because its the easy thing to do.

  12. Re:Godel/Turing/Cohen... by Hideyoshi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No, they didn't "prove" any such thing - you've been reading too much Roger Penrose if you think so. There's absolutely no evidence that human minds have magical access to truths which formal systems don't; there once was a time when it was thought "obvious" that parallel lines could never meet, and it's still hard for many people to believe that there is no such thing as universal time.

  13. Theorem Proving by NitsujTPU · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Theorem proving is NP Complete.

    FOL Theorem provers jump through a number of hoops to make the whole bit a little more practical, but realistically speaking, having a computer that just runs through mathematical proofs in the manner that a human does is a long way off.

    An interesting thing about the article is that the first proof was done with an FOL prover... it was a long, non-intuitive proof, but an FOL prover has performed that proof.

    The second was done with code, a human had to write the program. There is no computer replacing the activity of a human in performing this action that I can see here. It was merely code to brute attack the problem from what I can see, but I didn't read the guys article (from what I can see, it hasn't reached publication yet anyway).

    1. Re:Theorem Proving by NitsujTPU · · Score: 2, Informative

      Here's a quick article on the topic. Should I have prefaced my statement with "if p != np?" I didn't think that we needed to stand to such scrutiny.

      I must, however, admit to a certain level of interest in the topic, so, if you want to have a more detailed conversation on the topic, I'd be glad to have a chit-chat sometime.

      Feel free to post your proof that P = NP, or a paper referencing a linear time FOL theorem prover or SAT solver ;-)

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_theorem_pro ving

  14. Elegant proofs by erikkemperman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm certainly not a very gifted mathematician, but I'd like to think my grasp on it is at least adequate to make this point: from the proofs I've seen and understood, it seems that while the shorter and more elegant proofs may not strictly be more "truthful" than complicated ugly ones, the important thing is they are so much easier to understand, verify, and explain to others. For instance, I remember being especially charmed by Cantor's diagonal argument and will not forget that particular method of reasoning for the rest of my life.

    But maybe there's a point where simple proofs just won't do it; if there were a 4 line proof for Fermat's last conjecture I'm sure someone would have found it before Andrew Wiles proved the thing in something like 80 pages.. In such cases, computer-aided reasoning is really the only way to go, I'd say. It's probably easier to verify a proofchecker than a proof.

    --
    Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
  15. unverifiable by StrawberryFrog · · Score: 2, Interesting

    However, critics of computer-aided proofs say that the proofs are hard to verify due to the large number of steps and hence, may be inherently flawed.

    Nonsense. If people can't verify proofs, then what you need to do is to verify them by computer :)

    I'm not entirely joking here - so long as the verification program is written independantly of the thoerem-proving program, and it can reliably distinguish between valid and invalid logical inferences, what's the problem? It's simple automated testing methods really.

    --

    My Karma: ran over your Dogma
    StrawberryFrog

  16. Re:Godel/Turing/Cohen... by g1t>>v · · Score: 2, Funny

    That's what they said 50 years ago too ...

  17. Nothing too new? by xiaomonkey · · Score: 2, Informative

    Using computer programs to prove theorems in mathematics is as old as the field of artifical intelligence itself. In fact, some of the initial excitement around AI originated from the existence of such programs as Newell and Simon's Logical Theorist and it's sucessor the General Problem Solver .

    IIRC - back in the early days of AI (1960s), some people in the field thought that in relatively short order computers would be a major soucre of such mathematical proofs. It hasn't happened yet, but that doesn't mean that it won't eventually.

  18. Re:What about feigenbaum constant? by Zork+the+Almighty · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I believe that Feigenbaum's constant was discovered with the aid of a programmable pocket calculator. He noticed something, and used the computer to check it out. I think that of all the things that computers can do for mathematicians, this is the most valuable. You can ask "what about this" and the computer will do the grunt work. It's made a grad student's life much easier I'm sure :)

    --

    In Soviet America the banks rob you!
  19. Blowhard critics could use a logic course... by geekpuppySEA · · Score: 4, Insightful
    However, critics of computer-aided proofs say that the proofs are hard to verify due to the large number of steps and hence, may be inherently flawed.

    Because if there's one thing that humans are better at than computers, it's performing large numbers of repeated steps. Flawlessly.

    --
    Intelligent Design: because MATH is HARD.
    1. Re:Blowhard critics could use a logic course... by mcc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One could argue that if a proof ever contains repetitive elements, then this is a bad thing and you want to be adding some sort of abstraction to the proof anyway.

      Anyway, the problem isn't the ability for the computer to perform flawlessly, the problem is in our ability to accurately specify to the computer what we want it to do. It's the whole "fast working idiot" thing, mechanical perfection isn't much good if we wind up just directing the computer to perfectly, flawlessly do the wrong thing very quickly. We have enough trouble convincing ourselves real-world software is going to do what we wanted it to after it compiles; and in that case we at least have the advantage we can run it and test it to see if it does what we expect. With software-generated proofs, not so much, since the program IS the test.

      I think computer aided logic can be useful if we just think of a proof-generating software program as a funny, mechanically verifiable sort of abstraction, but you find yourself making an argument that rests on assuming that a computer program you wrote does what you think it does then this is problematic.

  20. Re:Consider the source by Trogre · · Score: 4, Funny

    What does The Economist know? It's a right-wing rag.

    What does Slashdot know? It's a left-wing rag.

    --
    "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
  21. here y'all go again, panicking... by Fry-kun · · Score: 3, Insightful

    To the opponents of computer-aided proof (with their hard-to-check argument), I would say this:
    It's easy to check a proof. It's hard to come up with a proof. Computers are great at checking proofs - all the program needs to do is verify whether the steps are logically correct or there's a discrepancy. Coming up with a proof, on the other hand, is a very hard task (being NP-complete, unless defined in a certain way) and thus usually requires a human (or sometimes, a lot of humans) to work on the problem.
    A computer would not be able to come up with new principles of mathematics in order to tackle a given problem, it would only try to use every trick that has been discovered to the point of creation of the program (of course that doesn't have to be the case, but my point is that human intervention would be required to "teach" the computer about the new concept so that it would try to use it for the proof)
    That is not to say that computers are useless in proofs. Obviously, they're often used as assistants in proving something-or-other, but there's also a direction in computer science where your computer would take a program that you wrote in a certain manner, and prove certain properties about it, e.g. that it is not possible to get out of array bounds in your C program...
    *yawn*
    time to sleep

    --
    Did you know that "FTW" ("for the win") is a direct translation of "Sieg Heil"?
  22. Re:Consider the source by l-ascorbic · · Score: 2, Informative

    A right wing rag that backed Clinton and Kerry (albeit grudgingly), supports gay marriage, legalisation of drugs, gun control, abolishment of the death penalty..?

  23. Re:Consider the source by sien · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Umm. So does this mean right wingers can't do maths?

    Secondly, the claim that a magazine that opposes the death penalty and supports gay marriage is right-wing rag (which presumably you meant in US terms, is kinda amusing.

    The Economist, correctly stated, is a liberal magazine. It supports liberal economics and liberal social policy. Unfortunately the word 'liberal' in the US has been badly distorted.

  24. Another Lomborg case? by orzetto · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The Economist is the same magazine that supported Bjørn Lomborg, thereby proving their utter incompetence in environmental science. They defended him in spite of clear and very detailed indications from the scientific environment that he was nuts.

    I suppose they will know economics when they talk about it, but they demonstrated an inappropriate habit of pontificating on things they don't have a clue about. I for one think they burned a lot of karma.

    --
    Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
    1. Re:Another Lomborg case? by RedWizzard · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You linked to a "by invitation" editorial. That doesn't necessarily represent the normal views of the magazine. Have you got any further evidence they generally support Lomborg's views?

  25. A proof needs to be intuitive by nigham · · Score: 4, Informative

    If you take a grad school AI course, they'll make you do proofs the way a computer does it... maybe using propositional logic. The idea is to break up the problem into a set of statements that looks quite ridiculous (e.g. NOT engine AND train AND NOT moving), and then taking pairs of these statements and mixing and matching. The result is that you determine your sequence steps by simple trial and error or by trying to combine the propositional symbols (AND, NOT etc) and the variables (train etc). Once you generate a proof, its just a list of such statements which evaluates to a FALSE or a TRUE value but if you want to understand the proof, its hopeless.

    I doubt the human proof system will go away completely - even if we can check nasty theorem proofs using computers, we still need humans to sit and explain what they mean.

    --
    I don't want to read /. I want to go home and re-think my life.
  26. Mizar by ajb2718 · · Score: 2, Informative

    The most popular system for the computer-aided Formalized Mathematics is mizar. It even has it's own journal for proofs written with it.

  27. I am a mathematician and... by ratta · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I was surprised to find on ./ a title such as "The End of Mathematical Proofs by Humans?", but after reading the article i realized that the computer is only beeing used to speed-up calculations and the ideas are still born in the analogic human brain. I have always used computer programs in math to solve equation, to probe combinatorial game theory problems, etc... When you find a way to make the computer "invent" proofs, just let me know, i'll call it AI.

    --
    Wondering why i am doing so strange posts? I am trying to get a "+5,Flamebait" or "-1,Insightful" rating.
  28. Re:If there are no proofs by arodland · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You mean... thinking?

    Geometry wasn't the most useful of my high school math classes, but it was the most fun, because we all worked together to come up with proofs, showing that those lousy formulas we had to memorize all had their root in Euclid.

    Similarly, anyone who wants to go anywhere with calculus should at least try to understand the proof of the existence of limits, at least for a few minutes, because that's what makes calculus something other than voodoo.

  29. "peer" review by lucason · · Score: 5, Funny

    How can the review of proof generated by computer by a human be considered "peer" review?

    Why not have it verrified by other computers?

  30. BTW, as a geek I want to know by ceeam · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What do they use for this field? Prolog still or something new(er) has been invented? Or they do what businesses do and use whatever comes handy or whatever is the current fad?

    1. Re:BTW, as a geek I want to know by Maljin+Jolt · · Score: 4, Informative
      A functional Haskell language is the tool of the day. However, there is nothing in Haskell that could not be done in Prolog with proper problem domain language defined by grammar. H. is just fancy looking, out of the box. Unlike Lisp.
      reverse :: [a] -> [a]
      reverse = foldl (flip (:)) []
      applied to a finite list of any type, returns a list of the same elements in reverse order.
      --
      There you are, staring at me again.
    2. Re:BTW, as a geek I want to know by call+-151 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, the proofs under discussion are not generated by a computer nor do they use "computer reasoning systems" like Prolog. These are computer-aided proofs, where the outline of the general argument is constucted by a (human) mathematician, but some of the details are reduced to computations, which are done by computer. I don't know in what language these particular computations were done, but I know that the computations for the computer-aided proof of the double-bubble conjecture was done in C++, and the source code is available if you want to have a look. I am familiar with other such computer-aided proofs that use a diverse set of languages, including C, assembly, Perl, GAP, Magnus, Mathematica, AXIOM, and many others. Mathematicians, like other researchers, tend to have diverse opinions about what suitable computational tools are and also tend to use the tools with which they are most familiar, even if that tool is not really optimal for that computational task.

      --
      It's psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I'll get a saw.
  31. Re:Science by AI is flawed too by Professor+S.+Brown · · Score: 2, Funny

    Was that just an intentionally terrible example, or did you not actaully understand a good portion of the book?

    --
    Shitram Brown, PhD
    Professor of Mathematics
  32. relax by mat.h · · Score: 2, Informative
    You still have to tell the computer what to prove. Much of what mathematicians do is finding the right concepts and formulating propositions. Then you can try to prove these propositions.

    A fairly basic example: several centuries passed between Newton and Leibniz introducing derivatives and Cauchy and Weierstraß arriving at the formulation that's taught in high schools nowadays (at least where I live): epsilon-delta definition of the limit and going from there. Today, this stuff and the accompanying proofs look pretty simple (and they are), but without the right formalism/mental model, playing with infinitesimal quantities is somewhat of a black art. It took a long time to get there, and computers wouldn't have helped much.

  33. Re:Godel/Turing/Cohen... by poopdeville · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is dumb. Godel showed that there are non-standard models of arithmetic. This means that there are distinct, non-isomorphic sets of objects which satisfy the axioms of Peano arithmetic. There's no talk of formal systems in his proof.

    Turing applied Godel's work to Turing machines and showed that there are non-recursive functions. No talk of formal systems here.

    I have no idea why you're mentioning Cohen, since his most famous work had to do with showing that there are models in which the Continuum hypothesis fails and models in which the Axiom of Choice fails. Not related to formal systems at all. Just Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory.

    All of this is tangential. Assuming a generous reading of "formal system" as "formal logic, your alleged "limitations" to formal systems come down to a simple corollary of Godel's completeness theorem: Given a fixed set of sentences S, there is a proof of A from S iff A is true in every model of S.

    --
    After all, I am strangely colored.
  34. Godel? by igb · · Score: 2, Informative
    Automated theorem proving was the purpose of
    Russel and Whitehead's work in Principia Mathematica, amplified by the Hilbert Programme.
    Godel exploded that little lot by showing how
    any formal system powerful enough to represent
    anything worthwhile was powerful enough to
    contain contradictions.


    Even simple `proof' like n-satisfiability or
    showing that a string is a member of a language
    defined by a context-free grammar is NP complete.


    ian

  35. Embrace both methods by karvind · · Score: 2, Interesting
    My take is that computers are a liberation from mindless computation and a tool for exploration. Only the most severe of Luddites wouldn't use a calculator, a computer is just an extension of that. For example, factorising polynomials, solving equations symbolically, and so forth. These are the sort of things that computers can save us an enormous amount of grunt work doing. Why not use them?

    For exploration, they are also useful. New series for p have been conjectured (and proved by hand) based on computer programs which search for certain sorts of integer relations. This has led to the ability to find the nth hexadecimal digit of p without finding the previous n-1 digits, something that could have been exceedingly difficult without this computer program.

    With regard to things like the proof of the 4 colour theorem using computers, there is a more interesting debate here. I'm going to make an analogy with a similar debate in neuroscience which is quite interesting. David Marr, who was a researcher into visual systems in the brain, made a distinction between Type 1 and Type 2 theories. A Type 1 theory is, broadly, one in which there are nice formulas like you get in physics or maths. A Type 2 theory is essentially computational. For example, many models of the way the brain work use PDP (parallel distributed processing, a sort of computer model of neurons in the brain). Marr's point was that in general we should prefer Type 1 theories, because they give us a general and intuitive understanding of how the thing being studied works. For example, there are certain cells in the visual system which detect edges in the visual field. So, if you have a theory of vision which involves certain cells finding the edges in the visual field then that gives you a better understanding than some sort of computation model which performs the function of the visual system but which you don't really understand. However, he also pointed out that since animals evolved and were not designed, there may not always be a Type 1 theory explaining why, in an abstract general way, the brain (or any other bit of the body) worked, it just does.

    Returning to maths, I think the analogy is that a Type 1 theory is one which can be completely understood by a single individual by working through it line by line, whereas a Type 2 theory might involve a computer proof like in the 4 colour theorem. In general, we prefer to get proofs which don't use computers, because they might give us an intuitive insight into why the theorem is true, or it might lead to an interesting new branch of maths (like the Taniyama-Shimura conjecture that Wiles proved). However, there might be some theorems which just do not have proofs which a single person could read and fully understand. The 4 colour theorem might be just such an example. It would be foolish to discount any such theorems a priori, and so I would advocate a cautious use of computers in mathematical proof. The danger in overusing computers is that if they become too widely used, people will search for computer proofs without finding the insightful way of solving the problem which doesn't use a computer. The danger in not using them enough is that huge amounts of effort could be wasted trying to find neat analytical solutions to problems which are not really amenable to traditional methods (not using a computer) of attack.

  36. Can it prove the Riemann Hypothesis? by alphadingo · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'd pay $500,000 for a program that can prove the Riemann Hypothesis.

  37. I agree with Erdos by yderf · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Proofs where no one understands the proof are of little use. Yes they allow you to work with the statement that was proven, but you don't garner anything from the proof itself.

    Many nice and elegant proofs are just that because they are not only aesthetically pleasing, they also give their readers insight into other problems.

    As Erdos used to say, they come straight from the SF's book. (if you don't know what that means, go read about him)

  38. Well, a lot of us are happy of this... by DownloadTHIS · · Score: 2, Funny

    The end of mathematical proofs by humans? I think I speak for the entire high school populus by saying "Thank God!"

  39. I love proofs by n-baxley · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I loved doing proofs in my High School math classes. I even had my own book of axioms, thereby cementing my destiny to be reading /. someday. I didn't become a mathematician, but the merger of logic and creativity was so appealing. I wish I had been able to take it further, but unfortunatly calculus came along and whipped my but, so instead of an engineer, I became a programmer. Go figure.

  40. The proof is sometimes the easy part by T+Rat · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Perhaps the most difficult part in my own work as a mathematician is understanding an area well enough to create meaningful, interesting conjectures. In many cases, the proof falls out immediately. This obviously isn't universally true (e.g. Fermat's Last Theorem), but the mathematicians that I have the most respect for are the ones who are able to see the connections between seemingly unrelated areas and ask the right questions to pull it all together.

    As other have said, computing may be able to verify an existing proof, but I think the real creativity and beauty in mathematics is often found in the initial formation of the conjecture.

  41. Issac Azimov story by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I recall a story I once read by Issac Azimov about a future culture where all knowledge of mathematics has been lost to humans, who have to rely on computers and calulators to do even the simplest math problems (older computers make the new computers and humans are left completly out of the process).

    A janitor at a science lab rediscovers the 'ancient knowledge' on his own. The military quickly gets ahold of it and immediatly puts it to use in weapons research, whereapon the janitor promptly takes his own life in shame.

    Anyone think there might be a future where humans rely on computers so much that they don't bother learning math at all any more?

  42. Re:Godel/Turing/Cohen... by kisak · · Score: 2
    there once was a time when it was thought "obvious" that parallel lines could never meet

    Actually, it was never thought to be obvious that parallel lines could never meet. Euclid tried to get rid of the postulate, and mathematicians for centuries after tried to show that the postulate was dependent on the others (the other postulates were never controversial in the same sense). In the qwest for a fundament for the parallel postulate, it was shown that the postulate is independent of the others. Then Gauss and others showed that very interesting new geometries could be created if you changed the parallel postulate with other postulates. And the story of the troublesome postulate in a way ends in the great breakthrough of Riemann geometry and the general relativity in physics it made possible. Penrose should know, he is an expert in general relativity.

    , and it's still hard for many people to believe that there is no such thing as universal time.

    Newton was challenged by among other Leibniz when Newton made time something that flows with a steady flow and that is just something physics has to accept similiarly to the existence of an unmovable space (Newton was making the concept undefinedable axioms of physics in a way). Leibniz did not like it and it lead to many philosphical debates, while physicist were usually happy to leave time as undefined since Newton's physics was so successful to explain things.

    --

    --- guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people ---

  43. Not happening yet by kitty+tape · · Score: 2, Informative

    Being at least tangentially in the field of theorem proving, I can say that this is completely ridiculous. Replacing human proofs is not going to be possible until we at least have mechanical provers which can really do induction. Many cannot do it at all, none can do it well. Furthermore, quantifier heuristics are often shaky at best. This is the wall that the software verification community has been hitting for years.

    --
    ----- "Type theory is like pretzels on crack." -- random friend
  44. what about the software by joss · · Score: 3, Insightful

    First off, Moore's law may not hold out for another 30 years, let alone 60.

    Secondly, how fast does software progress ? Suppose we all had computers 60 billion times faster than we do now. What would we do with them ? run SWING based java applications with tolerable responsiveness, play solitaire faster, run doom 5... [although the frame rate might be a bit low] ok... great,

    Intelligence and computing power are orthogonal concepts: suppose you communicated with aliens who were a 100 light years away, would they be less intelligent because it too 200 years to get an answer. Anything you can do on todays supercomputers, you can do on pocket calculator [with enought memory].. it just takes longer.

    Lastly, in the long run, computers wont outgrow our brains, they will be integrated with our brains.

    --
    http://rareformnewmedia.com/
  45. Capability vs reality... by Kjella · · Score: 2, Informative

    ...you would also need a bunch of biologists that can tell you exactly how the brain works, and a group of computer programmers that can translate that into code. Also remember that a brain is a living organism where the neural pathways are changing. In a computer, you must either connect all-to-all, or have a computer that can rewrite its own data paths.

    Kjella

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  46. One Reason Why Computer Proofs Are Shunned by skubeedooo · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I'm a dirty mathematician that doesn't deal in proofs (aka theoretical physicist), although I went to a seminar given by an eminent prof. in maths on the nature of proof.

    The talk was actually about why it doesn't have to be the case that really large numbers must satisfy the same rules as smaller computable numbers. This is based on Godel's proof that says something about it being impossible to know whether an axiomatic system is free of contradictions.

    Anyway, he also touched on computer proofs. He was basically saying that (most) mathematicians do what they do because they enjoy creating and understanding logical structures. To some extent you neither create nor understand a computer proof and so it is intrinsically less interesting to a mathematician. Since the world of mathematics is driven mainly by what they find interesting, computer proofs haven't featured very highly in it.

  47. Great mathematicians by hey! · · Score: 2, Insightful

    don't produce proofs. They produce insights that make proofs feasible.

    An insight that enabled a five page proof of Fermat's Last Theorem using nothing more than high school algebra would be a major result, even though much more complex proofs exist.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  48. Belief in a proof by vagabond_gr · · Score: 2, Informative

    As contradictory as it may sound, there is always a notion of "belief" in a proof. "Proving" essentially menas "persuading everyone that something is true" and the only difference between mathematics and other sciences is that the former constructs everything from very elementary axioms using basic induction rules, so that it is (usually) clear that a proof is correct.

    However it is common to use deduction rules incorrectly, theorems without meeting all preconditions, etc. When a proof becomes complicated, doubts arise.

    But that's exactly why we can have much more faith in computer proofs. A computer can only use very specific proof techniques, written formally in some kind of logic. All theorems must also be given very precisely. And the proof can be also checked mechanically, possibly using different software to avoid bugs etc. Size is irrelevent, as long as the basic proof technique is rock solid.

    On the other hand machines are stupid, you need humans to program them and prove the correctness of every proof technique they use.

    PS. Reading this article was very interesting, given that I'm currently attending a computer science conference (ETAPS) one of the main topics of which is logic and computer proofs :)

  49. Metaphor by Lifewish · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As a maths degree student I can confirm that a very large portion of mathematics is devoted to finding new metaphors and angles of attack for a given situation.

    This takes a ridiculous amount of pattern recognition skill (which is one area where computers tend to be outperformed by all comers) and the ability to find new ways to abstract data. A computer could possibly come up with an idea like more-than-3-dimensional space on its own, but I'd be very surprised if even the best one could think of something like topology or tensors on its own.

    Production of unusual metaphors for things we thought we knew is a major driving force for the most important mathematical developments. It's not something I can see computers managing at any time in the near future.

    --
    For the love of God, please learn to spell "ridiculous"!!!
  50. Learn this! by Jagasian · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Anybody involved in computers needs to learn this one important fact: AI fanatics time and again over promise and over sell their trade. Every few years, you get another AI snake oil salesman trying to claim that the turning point is just around the corner. But people that are actually educated in the problems at hand, those who have actually seen what AI has promised and can do, realize that it is all hype!

    Proof generation can only be partially automated. It still requires massive human intervention, from choosing what to prove and then how to go about proving it. When you have computers automatically generating a proof of, say, Godel's Incompleteness theorem, it is actually a computer that was fed an intricately encoded version of of the theorem, along with some form of hint as to how to go about proving the theorem.

    Not to mention that there is little use in a computer re-proving something that has already definitively been proven.

    The difficulty arrises from the fact that there are absolute limitations to what computers can do. These limitations have been proven many decades ago... BEFORE THE CREATION OF ELECTRONIC COMPUTERS! But to the ignorant, these theoretical limitations do not matter... simply because they do not understand how absolute they are.

    So again, learn this, you will time and again hear AI snake oil salesman spouting off crap about automating mathematical research and automating programming, etc. (Both are in a sense equally difficult as proofs can be seen as programs and visa versa.) In reality, at best, automated theorem proving is actually a tool that can be used to help mathematicians and computer scientists to do what they have been doing already. The level of automation varies, but in general is very low.

    A human still has to drive the entire process, similar to how a car automates walking, but doesn't automate where to go and how to get there.

  51. My Proof To The Four Color Theorem by Doug+Dante · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is in regular human talk. It's not a true proof.

    Imagine that you have a map that has five colors where every color is touching every other color.

    It's on a piece of paper beneath a coffee can.

    One color must be on the edge. There may be only one color, or there may be many, but at least one will exist.

    Move the coffee can until you see that color. Lets say red.

    Now imagine taking a marker and covering the rest of the page in red. (Alternatively, stretching the red area around the rest of the page).

    Now you have four colors who are all touching one another, and who are all touching the outer red page.

    Imagine that you have a tetrahedron. This is a 3D shape which has four sides. Imagine that each side of the tetrahedron has a color. Say, green, white, blue, and yellow.

    Imagine that you poke a hole in the tetrahedron and spread it out flat - placing it on the red piece of paper.

    No matter where you poke the hole, all four sides will touch one another.

    However, you must poke a hole so that all four colors are on the border, i.e. so that they all touch the red paper.

    Look a the green side. All of the sides are equivalent.

    If you poke a hole in one of the corners, the opposite side will be in the center when you lay it down, and it won't touch the red. It won't work.

    If you poke a hole on one of the edges, it's even worse. Two of the opposite sides will be in the center, and neither will touch the red. Again, it won't work.

    Worst of all, if you poke a hole directly in the center of the green side. Then all three other sides will be in the center when you lay down the tetrahedron and none of them will touch the red. That won't work either.

    Therefore, there's no way to poke a hole such that all four sides will touch the red when the tetrahedron is laid down, so it was impossible to have a map with 5 colors, all of which were touching one another, in the first place.

    Came up with this in 1990. Never formalized it mathematically. It may not be a proof, but it makes logical sense to me.

    doug@dougdante.com

    --
    The world will not get better through technology. We must seek to be better people.
    1. Re:My Proof To The Four Color Theorem by Zelatrix · · Score: 2, Interesting
      ...it was impossible to have a map with 5 colors, all of which were touching one another, in the first place

      That's correct, I think. But it's not the same assertion made in the four-colour theorem, which is that you can always color the map using no more than four colours.

      Now since the four-colour theorem is actually true, I can't provide a counterexample, but imagine that you are busy colouring in your map and you get to the last area, which is bordered by at least four other areas, each of which is coloured differently. You are stuffed. Like I said, the four-colour theorem is true, so this just means you made a mistake somewhere with the rest of your colouring in - but proving that is difficult, and it's not the same as proving you can't have a map with five areas that all touch each other.

    2. Re:My Proof To The Four Color Theorem by sixpaw · · Score: 2, Informative

      While what you've proven isn't the four-color theorem (as another poster noted), you have shown a piece of another mathematical problem, Kurtatowski's theorem; the complete graph on five nodes (i.e., a graph of five nodes where each one is linked to every other) can't be drawn in the plane. The rest of the theorem says essentially that the six-node graph where each node in one group of three nodes is connected to each of the three nodes in the other group (known as 'K(3,3)') also can't be drawn in the plane (this is sometimes called the 'Utility Problem' -- try to connect 3 utilities to 3 houses without crossing lines), and furthermore any graph that can't be drawn in the plane has a piece that 'looks like' one of these two graphs, in a mathematically formalizable sense.

  52. Re:Godel's Theorem prevents this scenario by PDAllen · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A computer can prove any theorem, if you give it long enough.

    Reason: a theorem is a statement which has a proof. A proof is a finite sequence of logical statements. You can order all sequences of logical statements by lexicographic order within the sum of the number of variables used and the number of statements; then simply have a computer run through all sequences of logical statements in that order, checking each one to see whether the statements in the sequence are either axioms or follow by the rules of logic from the axioms, and checking whether the final statement is the statement you want to have proved. The computer will eventually reach a proof of whatever theorem you asked it to prove. Note that if you asked it to prove a statement which is not a theorem, it will never stop. Goedel's theorem tells us that there are some statements where not only will the computer fail to prove the statement true, it will also never prove the statement false.

    The problem with trying to do this in practice is that for any interesting problem the shortest proof might not fit in a telephone directory - and the computer would be trying to find it by checking through all sequences of that size. It would take far too long.

    The theoretical problem you refer to is whether one can write a program which will correctly classify all statements as true or false - this is not possible; some statements are neither. If you allow it to classify as 'neither' as well, it is still not possible - the sketch above will never classify any statement as 'neither' because with such statements it never halts, for example. Turing proved that no program can correctly classify all statements.

  53. This was news 20 years ago... by sixpaw · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...but it's old hat now. Seriously, we're actually coming up on the 30th anniversary of the Haken-Appel proof of the four-color theorem, the FSG classification has been around for quite a while now, and from my perspective most of the people fretting about the nature of proof these days are philosophers, not mathematicians. Most of the serious (and many of the amateur) mathematicians I know consider the computer an essential part of their toolbox; Mathematica never accidentally flips a sign while it's going through two pages of calculations for you. There are even journals devoted to computer-aided mathematical exploration: Experimental Mathematics is more than a decade old now.

  54. Experimental Mathematics by pfafrich · · Score: 2, Insightful
    There is a journal called experimental mathematics which is devoted to using computers to do experiments in mathematics. This was mainly in the field of geometry and Geometry Center ww.geom.umn.edu was a center for this kind of work. Theres also a growing field of mathematical visulisation.

    As an example of this technique was investigating the local clasification of maps from the plane to the plane, which I took part in at Liverpool Uni. Here we were looking for special cases in a four parameter family of maps. I.e. there were four numbers you could change and each set of parameters gave a different mapping. Using visulisation programs on a computer I managed to find a special case which had not been found before. When I showed the pictures to the rest of the dept no one beleived them as they seemed to contradict the theory. Was is a bug in the software, a misleading piciture or a bug in the theory?

    In the end the experimental pictures proved to be correct and the theory was improved to account for it, involving lots of pen an paper mathematical work.

    This sort of investigation is a long way from the grand formal proofs in the article. But perhaps more indicative of the way that computers can be used to inform mathematics. More like the experimental physics/theoretical physics devide. In this case is generation of a counter example.

    One of the big problems with using computers is infinity. Most interesting problems in mathematics involve an infinite number of cases. Fermat: a^n+b^n=c^n four countably infinite numbers (integers). In the map case above it was four real numbers (uncountable infinities) Furthermore theory had proved that the underlying problem (all posible maps), which involved a countably infinite number of parameters which could all take an uncountable infinite number of values, could be reduced to just four parameters. Even with Moore's law its going to be hard to check all those cases. In the four colour theorem there is an infinite number of pattern to considered, the real smart bit in the theorem was showing that these could be reduced to just a finite number of special cases. In the clasification of simple groups we have several infinite of groups and a few (26) special cases.

    Infinity will also show its head in formal methods. More to the point combinitoric complexity. As the number of symbols in the formal sequence increases so the numeber of cases you need to consider grows rapidily, hints of NP-hard problems here and testing for primeness. This makes thing hard when you start with a few axioms and try to find all the logical consequences.

    Personally I don't have a problem with either of the proofs mentioned in the article. Both follow the same pattern, 1) reduce an infinite number of cases to a finite number of cases, 2) then check those using a computer. I can check the mathematics of 1) and write my own program to check 2). Hopefully the code's open sourced as well. Doesn't mean their particularly satisfying proof, or particually elegant, 10,000 special cases does not really flip my mathematical switch. Classification of simple groups does have a more elagant result, and deeper consequeces. Wilke's proof for Fermat, and the more interesting underlying conjecture, though long, is much more elagant, and more to the point much deeper opening up a whole new field.

    End of the day, its another one of the typical stuff we get in the press. Nothing much new here. This debate on four colour theorem's computer proof has been around for a good while now, and mathematics has for the most part gone on as normal.

    --
    There are four sorts of people in the world: fools, lunatics, idiots and morons. - Umberto Eco, Foucaut's pendulum.