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Is Obtaining a Windows Refund Still Difficult?
Bubblehead asks: "A few years ago, everybody was talking about returning their copy of Windows to receive a refund. I plan on buying a Laptop shortly, and most manufacturers still insist on shipping it with some version of Windows. I was wondering what the state of the affairs is - there isn't that much information on the net. The most prominent piece of information is this 2003 Linux Journal Report outlining how the author had to go to small claims court to receive a refund. Any experiences - especially with vendors that do not offer an alternative?"
Never had the chance to do it myself since I build all my own systems. I've kept this in my Bookmarks for some time though:
www.windowsrefund.org
(In the title bar it says windowsrefund.net, but that site times out. Don't know what that's all about...)
....here.
Dashboard Widgets
I am guessing that you can not get
the amount MS changes if you buy XP off the shelf.
Actually, that's exactly the amount you are entitled to, as you purchased that software for the retail price when you bought your computer.
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~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
Can't get Coral Cache or Mirrodot. Google cache turned up this result:
http://216.239.59.104/search?hl=en&q=cache%3Ahtt p% 3A%2F%2Fwww.linuxjournal.com%2Farticle%2F7040
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Getting a Windows Refund in California Small Claims Court
By Steve Oualline on Tue, 2003-07-29 23:00.
Thanks to good records and a Small Claims judge, Steve Oualline got a $199 refund for his unused copy of Microsoft Windows XP. One Linux user's story shows how to establish a good refund case.
Getting a Microsoft Windows refund from a manufacturer is seldom easy to do. In this article, I describe some techniques you can use to get your refund, including how to deal with the manufacturers (and all their excuses) and going to small claims court.
The first step to getting a refund is to ask for one. In most every case, you immediately hit a wall of stupidity and evasion when you do this. Dealing with this part properly is important, though, because you are building a record for the court case that may follow. Your job is to be as reasonable as possible and to make them look as dumb, inflexible and unreasonable as possible.
It's important to know what excuses the manufactures will come up with and how to counter them.
Excuse: You aren't entitled to a refund.
Answer: Then why did the software come with a license that said I was. Isn't the license a binding contract?
Excuse: Contact Microsoft about the refund.
Answer: The license said contact the manufacturer. That's you. Why should I contact Microsoft when they said to contact you?
Excuse: The software comes bundled with the hardware and can't be separated.
Answer: Then why did you give me a license that said they could?
Excuse: We'll give you a refund, but not for the retail price.
Answer: I paid retail for the computer and the software.
Excuse: The software is only worth $10.
Answer: Okay. Send me the check.
Although this doesn't look like it, you've won a major victory with these words--that check is written evidence of the fact that the manufacturer owes you a refund. If you go to court, you don't have to establish that the company owes you something. All you have to do is establish the amount.
But before you do that, you should follow up with the company. There are several ways of doing this.
Follow up #1: I got your check for $10. You say Windows XP costs only $10, so I'd like to buy 100 copies please. To whom do I make out the check for $1000?
You won't sell me Windows XP for $10? I'll have to pay $199 for it? Then that means the check you sent me is too low. Please send me a check for the full amount.
Follow up #2: I got your check for $10. But your $10 price is far lower that the retail price of Windows XP ($199). Because of the vast difference in the amounts, I'm going to have to ask you for a copy of your purchase contract with Microsoft so I can verify the price.
You can't verify the price. Well, I can only find one documented price and that's $199. You'll have to pay that amount or document your price.
One company tried this excuse with me. When I asked for documentation, the customer service representative said, "I don't have access to price information".
"Then how did you come up with the $10 price figure?"
"I just know it's the right amount."
"So what you are really doing is guessing. Well, my guess is the software is worth $1,000,000. Tell you what, let's split the difference. Send me a check for $500,005."
Excuse: We'll give you a refund but that applies to only Microsoft Windows, not the other bundled software.
Answer: No problem. Please provide me with a copy of all the other software on another disk so I can install it under Linux using the Wine program.
In all of these cases, follow up the phone conversation with a writ
Good story. I won't ruin the ending.
He countersued & eventually they settled, David signing an NDA so we'll never know the terms.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
I also have a page of linux-preinstalled and no-OS laptop vendors. By my count there are at least 20 vendors that sell linux and no-os laptops, so nobody should have an excuse anymore for whining about not being able to find linux laptops.
P.S. All you currently looking for a laptop...please email me if anything on my list needs to be updated.
1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
Are you really entitled to a refund?
Certainly in EULAs up to and including Windows 2000 there was a clause saying that, if you didn't agree with the EULA for Windows, one could take the shrink-wrapped box back to the vendor for a refund. I don't know if the WinXP EULA has such a clause however.
Rich
Just get one of these if you don't want to pay it. Don't worry, I ain't affiliated. I go to pawn shops and scrounge around for a crappy lappy and throw on whatever flavor I'm interested at the time. Then I wind up giving them away because they're slow and start pissing me off.
I also reply below your current threshold.
Why would you buy a prefab machine with windows knowing that you didn't want it in the first place? If I buy a car and don't like the rims, I don't ask the manufacturer or dealer for a refund. Don't buy from that vendor. No one put a gun to your head. This is stupid.
As the article mentions, Windows' licensing agreement explicitly entitles you to a refund from the manufacturer.
Hope that helps.
So the guy buys this laptop. However, at this point in time he hasn't accepted the Microsoft EULA for the operating system. This EULA specifically states: "YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE PRODUCT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL OR USE THE PRODUCT; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND."
If he hasn't agreed, he can return it for a full refund. If no-one is willing to give him a refund then Microsoft is in breach of its own license.
OT: if MS has breached its requirements to a person, is that person then justified in breaching his/her requirements? For example, the one about not decompiling. Just a thought.
For the love of God, please learn to spell "ridiculous"!!!
I purchased a dell 300m laptop 18 months back with the intent of running linux on it. I called Dell support, and explained that I wanted a refund on windows. This perplexed the poor lady at the indian call center, and we haggled for better than half an hour. In the end, they declined to refund me the full retail value for XP home, but ended up refunding me $75 and told me to keep the restore CD as they were "worthless". Fair enough I thought.
here
Seriously, you get your Unix kernel, CLI shell, X server, terrific hardware-software integration (check out the sleep feature), etc.
Admittedly, Apple needs to bundle more popular productivity applications.
--
"Extra Anus Kills Four-Legged Chick" -- Headline
Consumer laptops? No. At least to my knowledge, Dell only supports corporate *nix.
"Dell does not officially support running Linux on Dell laptops."
Here.
"It is the stillest words which bring the storm. Thoughts that come with doves' footsteps guide the world."
the same question can be asked of Apple
:)
When Apple has ~95% of the personal computer market, then it will be the same question. As it is, it isn't.
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
Actually, I believe they are shipped from the manufacturer that way, in many cases. At least it's my understanding that my late-nineties dell was pre-imaged at the hard drive manufacturer's place.
Yeah, not an easy world for those trying to do linux on laptops, but since you mention HP, I'll relate my happy-ending story...
I have the HP zx5000... ordered it knowing I could make full use of the Windows side of it (yes, I do DO Windows, .... sigh). And hopeful I might make inroads by creating a successful dual boot with linux and hopefully get the wireless working without having to resort to an external pcmcia card to do so.
Used Mandrake 10.1, and used the partition re-size out of the box (from Mandrake install), and the entire install went without a hitch! Sweet!
I DID have to purchase a proprietary driver for the wireless... but I was willing to pay $19 for that (from Linuxant).
I LOVE this machine!
And, for the record, out of the box, Mandrake 10.1 recognized and configured and took full advantage of the 1920x1200 resolution screen. It's great!
They aren't - the Nintendo 64 shipped with no games AND no menu system - you HAD to have a cartridge to do anything with it.
-insert a witty something-
I work in Gateway customer service so here's the official policy on this (and it was hard enough to find when I got hired and was curious so it'll probably be a bitch if you call and get one of the largely incompetent people who work there).
You cannot buy a computer without Windows on it. We simply will not do it. The way the ordering system is set up we cannot get it to go through no matter how sympathetic we are. Likewise if you purchase the system Gateway has determined that you agreed to the license the moment you power on the system. If you decide not to accept the license they will only accept the return of the software if you return the entire system (this being true of any pre-installed software that you want to return).
In other words don't buy Gateway. Then again, even if you aren't interested in the refund don't buy Gateway. They sell crap and their customer service (employees, polcies, turn-around times, etc.) are crap. While I wouldn't have bought one before I started working there I sure as hell wouldn't now.
$200? ROFL. You think Dell would be selling $450 computers if that was the case? Please don't be stupid. A single XP Pro OEM license goes for about $40 or so - a bit less if you are Dell/IBM/Gateway/HP.
what kind of nuked cd-roms have you been chewing on?
i do one-off custom builds, five or so a month of desktops with windows on it. this is my current cost for single oem copies (averaged from three vendors):
Windows 2000 Professional $153
Windows XP Home $94
Windows XP Professional $148
absolutely no price breaks on dsp 3 packs. those are exactly 3x the single price.
most other small var's are paying about the same, if they're buying their software through "official" channels.
those kinds of prices are why the little guy has no chance in hell of competing with mass-produced product like hp, dell, gateway, etc.
btw, the cheapest legitimate, properly packaged and sold copy (of xp pro oem) listed on pricewatch is about $130 plus freight from the cheapest company i'd actually do business with (and have numerous times for other items i cant get from my regular vendors).
you cannot tell me dell doesn't get a break from microsoft if they (dell) bundles the latest windows with virtually everything they sell.. just like they get insane deals from intel for using intel processors only. anytime dell's "looking" at amd chips is probably the time their contract with intel is up for renewal.
Yes. It's expensive.
You need to take the computer out of the line, out of the protective carrier that it's in (either the box, or just some foam protection), plug it in, turn it on, wait for it to boot, then get to a command prompt, then run fdisk, then discover that windows doesn't let you run fdisk on the active partition, and so on. Or... perhaps have that floppy around for the one in 10,000 chance that someone doesnt want windows.
THEN... add onto that the overhead of having a customisation channel for this kind of thing.
THEN... add on the additional cost of not being able to simply use the 'number of computers shipped' as the amount of computers installed with windows. You need to either track that number separately, or have two tracking systems. It may well be that MS insists on the payback being the 'number of stickers installed' on the computers... will they accept a used sticket back as a non-install?
THEN... triple all the costs... generally, a business plays 2.5 to 3 times the employee's salary to actually hire the imployee, due to taxes, liability insurance, accounting procedures, and so on.
So, yes, an additional $100 for that kind of customisation is NOT unreasonable. Welcome to the world of mass-production. You want a cheap laptop? This is the price you have to pay for that.
They have a category for vendors that sell laptops (and desktops too) without an OS installed.
Too lazy to create a sig...
So, why don't you buy a Linux-only laptop then?
...
Terrasoft Solutions sell Linux-only laptops, desktops and servers using Fedora Core 2 based YDL.
http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/
They specialise in PPC only, so if you insist on an x86 powered machine then you'd have to find another such shop. I am confident there must be companies just like Terrasoft who specialise in x86 based Linux pre-installed gear.
In fact, a quick google search for "linux preinstalled laptops" shows the this very interesting site as first hit
http://mcelrath.org/laptops.html
according to that site, there are plenty of options for people interested in x86 based Linux-only laptops.
the macintosh asterisk mailing list http://www.astm
Then download Feature Tool from Hitachi to turn it off http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/download.htm
I bought a laptop late last year. One of the things I was considering was asking for a refund for windows. However, on opening the cardboard box, I found that the laptop was enclosed in shrinkwrap with a bright yellow sticker attached. The sticker said something to the effect of "This product is sold with Windows, if you don't want Windows, then please return the whole thing unopened. Refunds will not be given for just the software, and by opening the packet you agree to this."