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Is Obtaining a Windows Refund Still Difficult?
Bubblehead asks: "A few years ago, everybody was talking about returning their copy of Windows to receive a refund. I plan on buying a Laptop shortly, and most manufacturers still insist on shipping it with some version of Windows. I was wondering what the state of the affairs is - there isn't that much information on the net. The most prominent piece of information is this 2003 Linux Journal Report outlining how the author had to go to small claims court to receive a refund. Any experiences - especially with vendors that do not offer an alternative?"
How much of a refund would you get? I am guessing that you can not get
the amount MS changes if you buy XP off the shelf. Do they try and
determine just what that vendor paid for it or would they try and
determine how much of the cost of the machine is represented by the OS
installed on it. That is, the difference between a machine sold with
XP installed and the same machine shipped with linux or no OS at all,
for example.
--greg Vulcan quiescent... Q: What machine shutdown with this message?
He tried to return a copy of XP that he purchased at his campus bookstore. First the bookstore refused the return. Then Microsoft refused. So he sold it on eBay. eBay took down the auction, but then later allowed it. Microsoft countered by suing him, and trying to take his 2002 Escort as damages. Good story. I won't ruin the ending.
--H
About seven years ago I too was looking for a laptop and I wanted one without Windows on it. I won't divulge the vendor's name. After a frustrating attempt to explain my "customization" with the service rep, i.e., a "nude" laptop, he transferred me to his manager.... He at first declined to agree to sell me one, but after a moment, and a pause he AGREED... another pause, then he said, "But we'll have to charge you an extra $100 for it." (I am NOT making this up!) Kind of gives you a relative feel for what value (or negative value) Windows added to that laptop, n'est-ce pas?
To the post's question, I am in the similar situation of wanting a new laptop... Have found several that are very close to everything I want and need in a laptop, but ALL come with XP Pro -- which I'm assuming adds $100 to $200 to the cost of the machine and I intend to use the machine for linux ONLY.... and I'm not willing this time to ring one up for MS.
Heh. The last time I asked whether it was possible to buy a laptop without a pre-installed operating system, I was told that selling one could expose the company to litigation. The reason: knowingly selling a non-functional product.
The owls are not what they seem
Are you really entitled to a refund? Can you take apart any product and return the parts that you don't want? There are plenty of hardware devices (computer and otherwise) that would retain some functionality if you removed part of the system, but do you have the right to pick and choose what you feel you need, and return those that you don't, do you?
To use the (slightly flawed) car analogy, can I return the spare tire because I don't feel I need it and ask for $50 back? The car works just fine without it, just like a PC works just fine without windows. To use a hardware/software analogy, can I buy a Cisco product that uses some IOS features I don't need, then tell Cisco I will simply remove the features and expect them to write me a check for "returning" them?
My sig is blank, I typed this by hand.
The server is already slow, so here it is:
Getting a Windows Refund in California Small Claims Court
By Steve Oualline on Tue, 2003-07-29 23:00.
Thanks to good records and a Small Claims judge, Steve Oualline got a $199 refund for his unused copy of Microsoft Windows XP. One Linux user's story shows how to establish a good refund case.
Getting a Microsoft Windows refund from a manufacturer is seldom easy to do. In this article, I describe some techniques you can use to get your refund, including how to deal with the manufacturers (and all their excuses) and going to small claims court.
The first step to getting a refund is to ask for one. In most every case, you immediately hit a wall of stupidity and evasion when you do this. Dealing with this part properly is important, though, because you are building a record for the court case that may follow. Your job is to be as reasonable as possible and to make them look as dumb, inflexible and unreasonable as possible.
It's important to know what excuses the manufactures will come up with and how to counter them.
Excuse: You aren't entitled to a refund.
Answer: Then why did the software come with a license that said I was. Isn't the license a binding contract?
Excuse: Contact Microsoft about the refund.
Answer: The license said contact the manufacturer. That's you. Why should I contact Microsoft when they said to contact you?
Excuse: The software comes bundled with the hardware and can't be separated.
Answer: Then why did you give me a license that said they could?
Excuse: We'll give you a refund, but not for the retail price.
Answer: I paid retail for the computer and the software.
Excuse: The software is only worth $10.
Answer: Okay. Send me the check.
Although this doesn't look like it, you've won a major victory with these words--that check is written evidence of the fact that the manufacturer owes you a refund. If you go to court, you don't have to establish that the company owes you something. All you have to do is establish the amount.
But before you do that, you should follow up with the company. There are several ways of doing this.
Follow up #1: I got your check for $10. You say Windows XP costs only $10, so I'd like to buy 100 copies please. To whom do I make out the check for $1000?
You won't sell me Windows XP for $10? I'll have to pay $199 for it? Then that means the check you sent me is too low. Please send me a check for the full amount.
Follow up #2: I got your check for $10. But your $10 price is far lower that the retail price of Windows XP ($199). Because of the vast difference in the amounts, I'm going to have to ask you for a copy of your purchase contract with Microsoft so I can verify the price.
You can't verify the price. Well, I can only find one documented price and that's $199. You'll have to pay that amount or document your price.
One company tried this excuse with me. When I asked for documentation, the customer service representative said, "I don't have access to price information".
"Then how did you come up with the $10 price figure?"
"I just know it's the right amount."
"So what you are really doing is guessing. Well, my guess is the software is worth $1,000,000. Tell you what, let's split the difference. Send me a check for $500,005."
Excuse: We'll give you a refund but that applies to only Microsoft Windows, not the other bundled software.
Answer: No problem. Please provide me with a copy of all the other software on another disk so I can install it under Linux using the Wine program.
In all of these cases, follow up the phone conversation with a written letter describing what was said and why you're unhappy with it. Remember you are creating a record for the judge.
At some point in this process you'll either get your r
You can order the parts, generic casing and all the fun stuff if you really want too.
Our local shop used to build them... until they went defunct.
"You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
Go ahead. Buy whatever you want, pre-installed. Then, wipe the drive, return the CD's, and take a tax write-off on the software expense. Surely MS wouldn't want to obstruct justice by refusing to deal with your CPA/Accountant, nor would they want to reveal the true cost of the software?
C|N>K
OK ok. I haven't read the EULA, but I am sure at the end of the three thousand words (or whatever), It says [paraphrasing] that if you don't agree, send it back for a refund.
If you think about it, how else could it be a binding contract?
I'm not a lawyer though, and anything is possible.
Move along... there is no sig here.
Last summer my wife bought a Toshiba notebook. It came with Windows XP Home and the manufacturer refused to send a real install cd. (Even with a new copy of Windows, though, the system was still cheaper than the other notebooks she looked at with comparable specs; this one cost US$1k, at which point IBM notebooks are barely getting started.) When she opened the bok, a sticker on the shrinkwrap said:
So, yeah, Toshiba won't let you return the operating system by itself.
This is just a thought (and I could be wrong here), but I think the apple situation is a bit different. Because the OS is by the same company that made the machine, they can simply claim that when you bought the machine, the OS was just an added bonus they threw in for free. You could try to get the machine without the OS, but you'd only be removing the free bonus.
This is supported by the fact that frequently, it you buy a machine within a month of an OS update, Apple will sometimes let you send in a voucher for the new OS for free (happened with my G5)
The problem is that you didn't purchase the software. Dell (or whatever OEM) did and included it in THEIR product to sell to you. The software has no line item value on your invoice.
If you want to return the software, you have to return the item you bought, ie the computer.
Suppose you bought a digital camera, and it came with a memory card. You go to return the memory card to best buy (where you bought the camera), but they won't accept it because they didn't sell you a memory card. They sold you a camera.
If you need web hosting, you could do worse than here
Microsoft's license is the only thing that allows you to use their software at all
You know, I don't believe that's true. I believe many people accept it as truth, but I'm not sure why.
What allows you to use the software is the fact that you paid money for a product. Copyright exists to protect the artist's (or in this case, developer's) work. My using their software doesn't damage that at all. I am not violating the spirit of copyright by using it (the claim that you are making a copy because the bytes end up on your HD and RAM is deceptive and shows a lack of integrity rarely found outside of the legal profession).
The idea that someone can force you to agree to terms after they have taken your money is ludicrous.
You can look at it this way:
1) You buy a Mac, get the OS with it.
2) You like the OS and like to upgrade. Well, the $129 is really just the upgrade price to the OS you already got with the Mac.
Think about it. There is no other computer you can install the Mac OS on anymore (I don't mean emulators) and every Mac comes with Mac OS. What is a $129 box for the next Mac OS other then an upgrade?
Not to mention, I was certainly entertained by the story and the information given was interesting. I think that's worth something right there.
I used to work at Gateway too. Until eMachines took over and decided that about four fifths of the company was not necessary.
Here's my understanding of the situation. Before Microsoft's big legal case with half the states in the country, they could make manufacturers sign an agreement that they wouldn't sell systems with any other OS. But that was ruled anticompetitive and is no longer allowed. But that doesn't prevent MS from including a clause in their agreements with manufacturers that says they can't sell a system with no OS, because that isn't preventing the installation of a competitors product.
At one point there was talk of selling systems with Linux but I think that was shot down because they figured they shouldn't sell systems with an operating system that the tech support people were not able to offer support on.
Gateway used to make quality products. Now that eMachines has taken them over, you are just getting eMachines systems with Gateway printed on them instead.
Oh, one more thing. I never got told real numbers, but at one point I was told that a copy of Windows XP Home was the second most expensive component in a Gateway system, second only to the processors. Microsoft gets more for Windows than Intel gets for the motherboard.
Yeah but it feels good to tell a major corporation to go fuck themselves after screwing you over. Especially when a judge sends the letter on your behalf. For some people (myself included), thats far more important than money.
Well, of course. MS has a bunch of them they obtained dirt cheap.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
... don't like the mess, then they could stop offering the refunds when one does not agree to the EULA.
But they will not do it because then they would fall foul of legislation in most places that forbids to tie in sales of one product (computer) only if you buy another (Windows).
The offer of the refund is not from the goodness of their hearts. Making almost imposible for consumers to get something they are entitled to is immoral and your criticism of people trying to get what is rightly theirs is ridiculous and preposterous.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.