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Free Software on a Cheap Computer
Shell writes "Is this the solution to free software on a cheap computer? NetBSD and Yellow Dog Linux have both begun to support the Mac Mini. This article from IBM looks at open source operating system options on this new contender in the embedded PowerPC platform space." From the article: "This article looks at the current state of Linux and NetBSD support on the Mini. If you need all the hardware and options fully supported, these open source options won't do it for you ... yet. But, if all you need is a stable kernel, a C compiler, and network support, the code is high-quality and the price is unbeatable." This is part two in the series. Part One was covered a while back.
Is it possible to get a mini without the apple OS?
If you can't, then whats the point? You've already paid for an OS....
Especially when all of these things ... as well as full hardware support comes with the f*cking computer!.
Ever hear of installing the Developer Tools on your Installation CD?
No offense, I'm a big *BSD supporter, but this article's summary is rediculous.
To my knowledge and confirmed by TFA, no distro of Linux or BSD (well, apaprt from OSX) supports Airport cards (either version)
They lay the blame at Broadcom's door for keeping the spec a secret, but lots of manufacturer's don't publish specs but still end up being supported, either through reverse-engineering or emulation + non-native-driver
Can any informed person comment on why this is taking so long?
I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
FTA:
"Current releases of Yellow Dog, as well as of Debian and Gentoo (both of which run on the Mini), are stable enough for use."
What's wrong with the Debian running on the Mini platform? Is there any reason Ubuntu couldn't run, too?
--
make install -not war
Doesn't the Mac Mini come with a stable kernel, a C compiler, and network support, all implemented in "high quality code" at the right price? And, OS X comes with excellent support for Java, in contrast to the last time I experimented with Linux on PPC (about a year ago) and found that there was no up-to-date JVM or SDK. (But perhaps I missed something.)
It comes with the Case, MB, and Hard drive.
Then add a monitor = $100
Video Card = $40
Peripherals = $40
CPU = $40
Now THAT'S a cheap computer. If you're looking to save money, why buy a Mac?
Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
You fail to mention that this system is listed at nearly double that price, and the link shows you how to go through rebate hell to get a deal. And the deal expires tonight.
I'd figure they'd at least ship with some sort of crippled version of OSX.
With the full version, even.
OFFTOPIC RESPONSE TO OFFTOPICNESS BEGINS
I mean, that big aluminum G5 "mini" tower (mini? wtf?)
mini, because a full tower is taller.
Man was he ever pissed off when he found out he can't display a movie fullscreen on his nearly two thousand dollar monitor.
Then he should try mplayer or VLC, or shell out for Quicktime Pro.
-mkb
Computers have been getting cheaper and cheaper. I'm mainly citing PCs, since Macs have always one-upped PCs in price and advertising. Sure, cute little machines are nice.
My point: two years ago I put together a 1.8ghz machine with 512 megs of RAM, decent video card, decent hard-drive, for 300 dollars. No OS included. Toss in some FreeBSD and I'm up and runnning for 300 bucks. So, again, someone please tell me how a 500 dollar computer is news these days? Just because it's a Mac? Just because Joe-sixpack can pick one up and doesn't need to know how to assemble parts? If so, why assume he would give a hoot about NetBSD or Linux?
Man was he ever pissed off when he found out he can't display a movie fullscreen on his nearly two thousand dollar monitor.
Huh? Does it not have hardware scaling? I thought G5 came with a radeon. With almost any accelerating videocard, the CPU is not involved when scaling, which means same performance windowed/fullscreen.
Or is your friend trying to play 1080p/i movie or possibly at obscene framerates.
In that case I demand to know where you got the video.
badness 10000
One possible point---you don't want to pay again, every 12 months or so. Another---you don't want to pay for apps, which can be way more expensive than the cost of the OS anyhow. A third---you want some of the things that are better than in OS X, such as modern X font rendering or Mozilla Firefox. A fourth---you want to be able to repair and upgrade your operating system; better yet, to have those fixes and changes integrated so that everyone can use them. A fifth---you're afraid of vendor lock-in, and want to make sure that your OS and apps are supported into the future. Shall I go on?
I think if I was willing to pay 1.5--2x for Mac hardware, I'd just run OS X. But some folks just like Apple hardware. I don't think the folks who choose to run a free OS on this hardware are insane: they have many viable reasons.
..and some people don't like the archaic x86 platform.
PowerPC is a nice platform.
No DVD player in the Dell, nor FireWire, nor a modem, nor a stack of bundled software, nor 90 days of free telephone support. Nor is it small, or silent. Laptop technology, which is what the Mini uses, is more expensive.
Just because the Dell costs less doesn't mean the Mac Mini isn't cheap, especially since the box contains more in less space.
I don't get why these articles always seem to push some one-off distribution that someone has scrounged together for their particular architecture. With Debian/Ubuntu, Gentoo or whatever, you get the same basic OS you use everywhere else, modulo a few tools that are specific to that architecture. That makes your life easier, so you can spend more time on interesting things, be it watching movies, kernel hacking or whatever...
http://www.welton.it/davidw/
how about the fact that 300 dollar computers do not come with firewire, dvd drives, cd writers, modems, and all the good software that comes with OS X,
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
RAM, CD-R, sound card, speakers. They're pretty essential these days. But at that point, you're approaching what it would cost to get a cheap-o Dell...
Who doesn't like free music?
if you are reffering to quicktime, yes, they charge for fullscreen
They just charge for the menu item:
tell application "QuickTime Player"
enter full screen display 1
set the scale of movie 1 to screen
play movie 1
end tell
$500 is not cheap for a mac mini CPU box.
$200 would be cheap and about the right price point for a mac mini type box.
The grandparent's point is perfectly valid. Fry's sells Great Quality brand generic PCs for $180-250. I've bought several of them to run Linux on, and they've worked just fine. The price doesn't include a monitor, but that's not an issue if you already have one.
It boggles my mind that people are still referring to a $500 computer as cheap. That hasn't been a good price since at least five years ago.
Find free books.
That page is talking nonsense. I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's not the way to show it. 32mb of 256mb ram is not a huge difference. Having two separate optical drives is BETTER, it means you can copy discs on the fly. Add in the price for the separate cd burner, it's less than the monitor and keyboard/mouse, so the dell still comes out over $100 cheaper. If you're really worried about the ram, stick a 128mb stick in the dell as well, then the dell has three times the advantage, and it's going to be what, $30-50 for that ram stick? Ignoring the fact that you can't buy a 32mb stick for a reasonable price, the extra video ram in the mini is only worth about $10 more. $334+10+53 for the cd burner means it's still $100+ cheaper. The only other advantage is in software, but you can get all of that free off the internet. The article makes a big fuss about no antivirus, but getting a free scanner is easy as that. If the OS's limitations are a big problem, who cares when you can get a full OS better than either of them for the time it takes you to download, or $5. (Mepis from cheeplinux or similar)
I am trolling
If you can't, then whats the point? You've already paid for an OS
When making decisions about your future actions, you should not take into consideration what you have already spent. That's a sunk cost, and it can only serve to bias your decision. Rather, you should be considering, from where you stand right now, what your best options are for the future. This is why companies will spend millions on building a new facility, only to abandon it one month before completion. They do this because they figure that they will wind up losing more by continuing to dump time and effort into the facility, so what's the point?
If you get more usability, security, performance, or what have you, out of Linux than you do out of MacOS X, then it does not matter whether or not you have already paid for MacOS X. That has nothing to do with what operating system you should be using from this point forward.
An unjust law is no law at all. - St. Augustine
A little over 3 years using OS X as my Unix platform. The only problems I have encountered so far:
1. The MySQL library for CPAN does not install automagically, but the procedure was figured out long ago and is accessible to anyone that knows how to GIS.
2. Apache2 was much harder for me to setup, but I also had trouble in freeBSD so the fault is obviously mine.
Except for those two things, everything else is great.
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder
One of the reasons I go to slashdot is the sheer power of people fixing annoying problems with 1-10 lines of text.
This post will likely be modded redundant, but I just need to shoot my mouth off for a bit.
I don't see why anyone buying a Mini would want to do this. It's completely insane to "fix" something that works fine by replacing it with stuff that almost works.
It's like buying a new car, running really smoothly, a great piece of equipment - and the first thing you do is replace the engine with one that works less well, and after that replacing the seats with banana crates.
I enjoy large posteriors and I cannot prevaricate.
The whole premise of the article is: An embedded view of the Mac Mini
So for $499 you get an entire solution as an embedded computer; developer tools, OS, and hardware.
For your $98+$40+$40 (case, mb, hard drive, video card, and CPU), where are your developer tools, OS, ram, and SIZE?
Can you place your $178 (+ram, OS, development tools), inside a car? A backpack? A handheld?
The point of the embedded development system is that you can use your tools and hardware from your development environment and transfer it into production. IE, an embedded PowerPC.
Where is the LOW POWER embedded Pentium 4 or embedded Athlon? Your proposed solution would be to develop on a $200 Intel PC for a $80 PowerPC solution.
The Mac mini proposed solution would be to develop on a $499 PowerPC for the same $80 PowerPC solution.
Your idea works great... if you're developing for the XBox. For all the other PowerPC devices (like say the TiVo, or maybe the GameCube, or the future PS3, Revolution, or XBox2), it seems kind of backward.
GPL Deconstructed
Then again, can someone remind me why the UNIX under OSX is not good enough?
Because it wasn't compiled and installed from scratch, obviously.
Also, it's too easy to set up and use, and there's not enough hacking to get apps installed.
I meant the CD/RW drive in the Dell cannot handle DVD's. In the Apple there is a CD/RW+DVD combo. Sorry for being unclear.
What neck of the woods do you live in? As far as I know, the majority of Internet access still occurs through dial-up, so I don't agree with your assertion that modems are hardly used anymore. Nor have I heard of any ISP that includes a modem with a dial-up account.
In any case, you seem to be arguing that the Dell costs less, with which I was not disagreeing. What I disagreed with is that the Mac mini is not cheap. In fact I think it's very cheap for what you get. That it may not be what some (or maybe even most) people want doesn't change that.
.. IBM has a vested interest in encouraging interest among Linux developers for their PPC architecture.
If there's anything to the rumours, we'll be seeing Linux PPC desktops/laptops sometime soon. Wonder if they'll use their Thinkpad offshore, or the Taiwanese company already making the Mac Mini's, FoxConn http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20050114A7040.html
On topic I'd be interested to know if Apple has any exclusionary rights over the market for PPC desktop machines. I'd sure buy a PPC laptop if it came without the sugared fruit..
I have to agree with many of the other posters here about the selling point for most Mac hardware is OS X. Don't get me wrong, I like linux and its great for a lot of purposes, but on my laptop, I just want everything to function properly without having to think of it. If I can get a system that does that using a Unix core, then I'm interested right there. My iBook is a nice piece of hardware, but it isn't really anything special. What is special is OS X. I can't really say that any other operating system can match it when you evaluate it as a whole. If it wasn't for OS X, I'd probably have a Windows laptop and just left Linux to run my server.
SIGFAULT
First off, this web site is always listing PC's from Dell with those kinds of prices. Sure, the rebates and deals will end tonight, but another one always follows. Rebate hell? I think not. Rebates are childlishly simple. I have done quite a few, and rebates that will get back about $400? Sign me UP! It is a shame BestBuy customers can't quite grasp the concept... http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/02/061723 4&tid=187&tid=98&tid=126
The point is now Apple has bypassed 2 major choke points with the mac: price and size. A lot of people have wanted to try out a Mac of their own, but they were either too expensive to bother or they didn't want the iMac with it's built-in monitor taking up even more room on their desk. Now with the Mini they can get a Mac for $500 USD (base configuration) and it's small enough to put anywhere on (or under) your desk.
Now, for the non-geeks: not everyone is tech savvy enough to know
a) about mini-itx or Via low-voltage CPUs
b) how to build a machine
c) install and use Linux
Mac's "just work." Someone with no PC experience can just plug the thing in and get it working. The same can't be said about Linux.
Now, as for buying a Mini just to turn it into a Linux box... that's another debate all together.
Debian runs fine on the Mac Mini. Then you can move across all software and scripts from whatever other Debian platforms you've got ... and they just work.
People need to remember that the first article in the series was talking about using the Mini as an embedded development platform. Mac OS X is hardly an embedded OS, so being able to replace it with a more customizable system (i.e., Linux, NetBSD) is a plus, especially if you can make use of the hardware provided in the sexy little package.
Putting a crippled Linux/BSD on a Mini when you have OS X installed is silly: except for the sheer studliness of it go out and buy a cheap x86 box to get your Linux fix.
I'm currently agonizing over the decision to build a Mini-ITX or buy a ready made MiniMac. I'm probably going to do the Mini-ITX. However,...
Unfortunately Mini-ITX is not cost effective. One has to specifically want either an extremely small, or extremely quiet computer and be willing to pay the admission price. The MiniMac offers both at a very good price (comparitively).
In order to compete with MiniMac, a Mini-ITX box would have an MII-12000 MoBo ($200+ US) plus a small box like one of the Casetronic Travla's (~$150), low profile memory (~$80), a slim optical drive (~$80+), and a notebook hard drive (the only cost effective peripheral ~$70). Total cost, ~%570. The Mini-ITX would have user service-ability, Compact Flash + PC-Card, and better connectivity. But the G4-based MiniMac would blow the doors off the C3 Nehemiah-based Mini-ITX box.
Until Mini-ITX components come down in price, the MiniMac might be the more cost effective solution.
But only in the very small, very quiet computer market. As others in this forum have already pointed out, one can build a faster X86 box for less money. If one doesn't care about small and quiet, that's the way to go.
You may not need crossover -- straight ethernet will do, as the Mac's NIC will "cross" the connection if it senses it needs to.
MacOS X which has 64-bit support. Besides what does it matter since the Mac Mini uses a 32bit processor...
Click here or a puppy gets stomped!
In the almost inevitable situation where you'll want to add a third computer - say, a friend drops by with a laptop - you can just plug it in to the switch and start using it. If you've used crossover cables, though, you'll find yourself in a mad dash to the store for the same switch plus the straight cables to replace your now-useless crossover.
I understand that Macs can automatically sense which sort of cable you're using. If that's true, then at least start off with a straight cable so that you can still use it when you eventually upgrade to a switched network.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Want free software? What's wrong with the following:? form_cat=309
Gentoo for OS X: http://www.metadistribution.org/macos/
Darwin Ports: http://darwinports.opendarwin.org/
Fink: http://fink.sourceforge.net/
Freshmeat: http://osx.freshmeat.net/
Sourceforge: http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/trove_list.php
I need clarification. Are we discussing Open Source Software or Open Source GUIs?
Mac OS X has an open source kernel, a closed source GUI, OSX specific frameworks and some apple specific drivers. I don't see what the problem is. They have to have something extra to entice people to buy their OS. Fortunately, they support open standards and document their APIs very well. I consider "open standards to be far more important that open source software. as the former help to prevent vendor lock in while the latter does not necessarily do that. What good is it to have open source software if it does not support interoperability?
Running Linux or FreeBSD on a mini will gain you nothing for software availability and you will lose WiFi support so I really don't see what is the point to not run OSX.
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
Who wants to run Linux or BSD Unix on a Mac Mini? People buy a Mac Mini to be a cheap low-end Mac. They actually want to run OSX.
If they wanted to run Linux or BSD Unix, they could buy one of those el cheapo $300USD or lower PC Clone systems. In fact, this is something that Linspire counts on, selling their el cheapo Linspire based systems at Wal-Mart, etc.
The day you find people running Linux or BSD Unix on a Mac Mini, will be the day that Apple sells the Mac Mini sans the OS. The Chicago Cubs have a better chance of winning the World's Series, than people have of Apple selling Mac Minis without an OS.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
Anyone remember The OpenPPC Project? This was something Ralph Giles and I started a few years ago, to follow up on a PPC-based reference board designed by IBM. Unfortunately a parts problem prevented it from ever being produced commercially, despite creation of a commercial company (Pop Computers) to manage the process.
Anyway... while the Apple Mini/OSX solution isn't the same thing philosophically, I'm fairly content that it solves most of the problems for which that project was created: It's Unix, it's cheap, it's PPC.
What it *isn't* is open-source in any real way. As someone who's now more influenced by practical than ideological concerns these days, I'm content.
Tom Geller
That's a sunk cost, and it can only serve to bias your decision. Rather, you should be considering, from where you stand right now, what your best options are for the future.
If you get more usability, security, performance, or what have you, out of Linux than you do out of MacOS X, then it does not matter whether or not you have already paid for MacOS X.
This is true, but the article title implied that the reason for installing Linux was that it was free. If that means free as in beer, then it's a specious argument, precisely because the cost of OS X has already been paid: you cannot save money by installing Linux.
Indeed, if your time has monetary value, as everyone does, then taking the time to install Linux in fact adds cost.
I stole this sig from someone cleverer than me.
So what, MacOS is a decent OS. Who cares? It only runs on Macs anyways. The great thing about Linux and other open systems is that they aren't platform dependant.
You know, some people actually LIKE Linux systems, and they prefer to use them on whatever the hardware of the day is, be it a G5 or an Opteron or an Itanium. At the end of the day, you're still using your trusted and open OS, which you'll more then likely be able to run on the next system out the door by whatever company.
Don't you get it? Vendor lock-in sucks, I don't care if it IS the proverbial underdog that's doing it.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
The iBook is legendarily unreliable. My friend's iBook (nicknamed "iBork") has had to be sent back to apple for repairs no less than 3 times...
apple faced class action lawsuits over the iBook fiascos.
I'd seriously reconsider recommending an iBook to anyone. Just because it didn't happen to you doesn't mean it won't to the person you recommend it to. And statistically speaking, the ibook is very prone to failure compared to other laptops.
A powerbook is probably ok though.
Ditto. In both senses - that is, been there done that, and "use the program `ditto' to do it".
`ditto' is the program the Mac developers wrote instead of tweaking all the UNIX utilities to work with their dual-forked filesystem. Never, ever, ever use `cp' on MacOS/X - only `ditto'.
Guess what isn't mentioned in the `cp' man page?
Contempt without investigation has a name: ignorance. Grandma's and graphic designers use Macs. Real nerds use Linux.
/ 1818256&tid=156&tid=3&tid=218
Pot. Kettle. Black. You just proved your ignorance.
"Ben Gutierrez writes "Paul Graham has posted a new essay on the Return of the Mac which begins with: 'All the best hackers I know are gradually switching to Macs.' Tim O'Reilly said some similar things in Watching Alpha Geeks. From the article: "My friend Robert said his whole research group at MIT recently bought themselves Powerbooks. These guys are not the graphic designers and grandmas who were buying Macs at Apple's low point in the mid 1990s. They're about as hardcore OS hackers as you can get.""
http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/29
If you want to, you can always hit the terminal, or even boot up to a console on the mac. Not sure why you'd want to, but the ability is there.
1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcf
Not sure why you'd want to
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