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Revisionist History in Age of Empires

The fact that Microsoft Game Studios picked and chose from the past in order to make Age of Empires fun is understandable. While recognizing that, the Wonderland Blog brings up the (dubiously laudable but) important role Age of Empires has in educating young people. Alice asks if such a game, helpful to the teaching of the young, should futz with the past the way it does. The Guardian Blog follows up on her commentary by discussing the game and the issue in the context of Serious Games. From the article: "With the snowballing of interest in Serious Games and governmental support for the development of games in the classroom, should this be an issue that is seriously debated in development houses?"

22 of 93 comments (clear)

  1. Historical Accuracy by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The only time they should take these things into consideration is if the title is being developed as an Educational/"Edutainment" program. Otherwise, gameplay should trump fact. Everybody knows that the Great Pyramid didn't actually give the Egyptians a free granary in each of their cities, right?

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    1. Re:Historical Accuracy by jessecurry · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If there were some sort of certification that games could receive showing that they had historical accuracy I think that it might be a way to increase sales.
      If I were purchasing a game for my child and could choose between Warcraft or Age of Empires and saw that Age of Empires contained historically accurate content, then I would probably go with AoE. Now, if AoE had horrible game play then I would have to choose Warcraft being that the game's primary purpose is entertainment, but when choosing between two titles that are supposedly equal the one that would educate as well as entertain would win out.

      --
      Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know. ~Lao Tzu
    2. Re:Historical Accuracy by fm6 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      You're right, the obligation of game designers is to good play, not historical accuracy. But game players have an obligation to understand that it's just a game, and they shouldn't rely on it for historical education. Unfortunately, lots of gamers are less critical than that. Such as Orson Scott Card, who claims to have achieved great historical insight from playing Civilization, the game that invented the discovery-cascade model used in Age of Empires and Rise of Nations. Which is one reason I no longer bother with his books.

      My favorite "discovery" is the Existentialism upgrade in Rise of Nations, which rather than changing anybody sense of self, just causes a nation's economic and military efficiency to go up slightly. One wonders what Sartre would make of that!

    3. Re:Historical Accuracy by Mike+Hawk · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The key to Civ3 is picking the Babylonians and going for world domination by building religious buldings and wonders and taking over cities by spreading your culture mixed with smaller local skirmishes to crush dissenters as necessary. But thats just the game though. Nothing like real life at all.

    4. Re:Historical Accuracy by dr.badass · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Unfortunately, lots of gamers are less critical than that. Such as Orson Scott Card, who claims to have achieved great historical insight from playing Civilization

      There is a difference between insight and knowledge.

      It's entirely possible to learn some general ideas about the growth and development and fall of civilizations by playing a game. You may not get very deep insights, but you're not likely to get those in school, either, and we require kids to play that game.

      I don't know exactly what he's claimed, but I know that I learned more from Civilization II's built-in Civopedia, which had tons of historical information, than I did in history class. More importantly, CivII got me much more interested in history than any class.

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  2. For the love of all things holy by SiliconJesus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Its a game people.

    G A M E

    Say it with me now. Its for the purpose of having FUN, not learning. If I wanted to learn I'd crack open a book and read or something. If I want to kill off Native Americans the old fashoned way with a musket, then I play a game.

    Jesus effing christ on a stick. Get your blue state heads out of your collective asses and HAVE FUN instead of insisting that everyone tries to conform to your concept of "HOW THINGS SHOULD BE."

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    1. Re:For the love of all things holy by Shadow+Wrought · · Score: 4, Funny

      Now son, if I've told you once, I've told you a thousand times; playing Ages of Empire is going to distort your understanding of history and the world. Now go play Grand Theft Auto or Extreme Beach Volleyball so I don't have to worry about your perspectives of reality getting distorted.

      --
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  3. What?! by Short+Circuit · · Score: 2, Funny

    You mean to tell me the Byzantines and the Hittites didn't regularly encounter each other in battle?

  4. Incidentally... by Otter · · Score: 3, Informative
    Apparently, the Native Americans are not so much a peoples to be exploited and killed off with pox-infected blankets...

    Actually, the smallpox-infected blankets story is now held to be a myth. If it happened at all, it certainly was not a recurring practice.

    That doesn't invalidate the larger criticism*, obviously, but it's striking how often the people who hand out lectures on distinguishing between myth and "fact" almost always have some rather glaring problems with their own "facts".

    1. Re:Incidentally... by Momoru · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Also once the Aztecs were conquered in Mexico, they occasionally joined forces with the Spanish and helped fight other native tribes in the present day southwest US. I think it's funny how revisionists have ALREADY rewritten history to make it appear that all Native American tribes were simply sitting around smoking peace pipes before the evil europeans came in and slaughtered them. A large amount of Native tribes fought each other in wars for centuries, and when the first Explorers set foot in present day Florida, Louisiana, New Mexico, and Mexico, they were greeted with hostilities. It just so happened that the Europeans had better weapons and superior numbers in most cases.

  5. Hippo-crate by NanoGator · · Score: 3, Funny

    " important role Age of Empires has in education young people."

    Ah yes, AoE has really embiggened our vocabulary hasn't it?

    --
    "Derp de derp."
    1. Re:Hippo-crate by Shadow+Wrought · · Score: 3, Funny
      Ah yes, AoE has really embiggened our vocabulary hasn't it?

      A cromulent observation if ever there was one.

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      If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
  6. In the age of blogging by SunFan · · Score: 3, Interesting


    I'm sure someone will provide an analysis of the game comparing it's story to accepted historical theory. Blogging isn't just for geeks, you know.

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  7. Didn't this happen? by KDR_11k · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I mean, didn't Cortez use some tribe to assist them defeat the Azteks? So since the concept of using natives to further your goals existed in reality, why not have it available in a game without restrictions? The economic system in the AoE titles isn't close to realistic either but I see nobody complain that it teaches children gold grows on the surface or something.

    --
    Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    1. Re:Didn't this happen? by aelbric · · Score: 2, Funny

      I am pretty sure the Aztecwere defeated by Cortez and an Alliance with other native peoples. The Azteks, however, were defeated due to bad aesthetic design and poor market research.

      --
      nos laetus epulor qui would domito nos
  8. AOE3 more accurate than the reviewer's view of his by jbs0902 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The reviewer's problem seems that AoE3 doesn't go along with the revisionist history supported by the reviewers.

    From TFA
    'The crux is that the Native Americans in AoE III "are not so much a peoples to be exploited and killed off with pox-infected blankets as they are partners in your war against the other countries," according to Kotaku.'

    So, the reviewer has the racist view that Native Americans are weak social incompetents whose only purpose is to be exploited and killed. To the reviewr's Native Americans are not fully realized human being (capable of both selfishness and charity, both good and evil) but instead the reviers complains that they are not seen only as victims.

    When in reality (not the reviewer's politically correct fantasy) the Indians were a number of unallied and often mutually antagonist tribes/countries that frequently allied with the Europeans. For example, the Anti-Aztec Indians that allied with the Spanish in order to topple their Aztec masters. These Indians did this, not solely for the Spaniards benefit (although the Spanish did benefit) but because these Indians hated their Aztec rulers.

    Another example, would be the French and English Indian allies during the French-Indian War. Once again various Indian tribes and mercenaries sided with either the French or English in the hopes of increasing their (the Indians) wellbeing and domination over an opposing Indian tribe.

    Did the Europeans do bad things to the Indians? Yes, both as individual settlers and as organized acts of imperialism. But they also acted in a way roughly (it is hard to tell without the game being published yet) in accordance with AOE3's portrayal. The Europeans took the Indians on as allies when needed or convenient.

    It is revisionist to re-write the history of the Native Americans to exclude their acts of savagery and genocide, leaving them only as objects of pity, too incompetent to fend for themselves or produce noble achievements. This revisionism which denies the Native Americans their true history and their ability & potential to share in the both the horrors and grandeurs of basic human nature is racist.

    The review's problem seems to be that AOE3 does not exclude the self-interested actions in favour of the reviewer's political point of view. The reviewer's view of history is more revisionist than AOE3s.

  9. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Funny

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  10. Idoits by PapaBoojum · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "With the snowballing of interest in Serious Games and governmental support for the development of games in the classroom, should this be an issue that is seriously debated in development houses?"

    NO.

    Not with a game that is CLEARLY designed and marketed as ENTERTAINMENT.

    If a child's primary source of learning history and historical content if a freakin' computer game, that child is already hopelessly borked.

    Who ARE these IDIOTS who demand or even suggest that the entertainment industry shoulder the burden for rearing everyone's children?

    1. Re:Idoits by nelsonal · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'd be surprised if anyone here of a certain age didn't learn more about pirates and 15th century politics from Sid Meier's Pirates than any other source. Certainly we played it to have fun, but after a few games you learned why Drake chose a Pinace over a Galleon when raiding.

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  11. Age of Empires II tutorial campaign... by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 2, Funny

    I *was* a little disconcerted to learn that William Wallace *won* the battle of Falkirk...

    Chris Mattern

  12. Why stop at AoE? by wallykeyster · · Score: 2, Funny

    I suggest we bring Doom to task for their abuse of the known laws of physics in building a game around an interdimensional portal on Mars. Also, Madden 2004 allowed me to trade Randy Moss to the Cincinatti Bengals and win the Super Bowl, yet we know this didn't happen. This is a friggin' outrage!

    When are we going to wake up and realize that everyone else must do a better job of raising my children?

  13. Lies? by Stargoat · · Score: 3, Insightful
    This is revisionist history. Revisionist history has been necessary in some cases, but let's not pretend like smallpox in blankets was everywhere, or even anything but a single isolated incident.

    Instead, think about how the British allied with the Sikhs against the French. Or the French with the Hurons against the British Colonists (French and Indian War). Or Nelson attacking the French with help from local native Central Americans. Or Cortes taking advantage of the cruelty of the Aztecs to create a series of alliances with the local natives. Or the British allying with the Egyptians and using Indian troops against Muslim holymen in the Sudan. Or T.E. Lawrence with the Bedouin fighting the Turks.

    No, that has been the pattern of history. Despite what modern day opponents of Colonial History may say, the West has historically used ambitious natives in their money making schemes. Africans enslaved Africans, not Europeans. Chinese sold Opium to Chinese, not the British. Indians fought against the Afghans under British leadership.

    Quite frankly, this sort of history as being presented in the article is erroneous to the point of being deliberate. Is there an agenda here, or is this just some deluded fool?

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