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Britons Frustrated by DRM

Posted by timothy on from the hence-the-inhibitions dept.

thesp writes "The BBC is reporting that UK music lovers are 'frustrated' with DRM restrictions and pricing of online music purchases. The confusion over file formats and player compatibility are being compounded with the desire to 'own' rather than 'license' an album or track, leading to widespread concern. This debate has recently been the province only of the technologists and the media companies, with the consumer being regarded as unaware and unwitting. Is this a sign that this picture is changing, with consumers begining to realise and leverage their own market power?"

33 of 565 comments (clear)

  1. Finally, but will it do anything? by strider44 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Don't the RIAA have a virtual monopoly on music, and so can't they place restrictions at will?

    I think that it's good that people are listening, but without competition, somewhere else to go to to get the music that you want, why would the music industry do anything?

    1. Re:Finally, but will it do anything? by FidelCatsro · · Score: 2, Interesting

      To be honest worst comes to worst the UK could do without RIAA , As the UK and well the whole of europe has alot of bands signed to labels outside the RIAA.

      Another think though , i would dearly love this to come up in the european court as they have a tendancy to rule in favour of the people , If it hapens that the european court rules that it is unlawfull then it will begin to spread over the member states .

      When it has spread to all the member states then the practice will extend beyond the member states to non member states , at which point there is an extremly large import export market which would flow to you guys in the USA , Australlie , Canada , New zeland etc.

      When this hapens , people will stop buying the DRM crap localy and pay for the imported stuff that they can do as they please with.

      Thus the snowball continues to roll and hopefull that would be the end of DRM in music (hopefully a side-effect would be removing it from software and Films)

      Well we can but dream

      --
      The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
    2. Re:Finally, but will it do anything? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      didn't France recently do this?

      No. A recent judgement involving consumer watchdog associations said:
      - companies have the right to put protections on their CDs
      - consumers who experience problems reading these CDs are entitled a refund.
      Now, circumventing encryption is still authorised in Europe. The problem would be a DMCA-like bill at the European level (such as EUCD).

  2. DRM not helping by antonpiatek · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I rarely download music, most of my friends buy CD's so they can do what they like with the music.

    Some of my friends do download, but i can't think of any that download any drm'd music. They stick to sites such as audiolunchbox.com and alloffmp3.com and get drm-free mp3 files.

    The only thing that bothers me is that if i want to listen to my flatmates cd, i will want to put it on my ipod for a while. He uses media player to rip his music, so it wont play on my ipod.

    If music companies sat down and thought about what they are doing, they would realise that they are competing against the mp3 player market, because if they dont sell something that plays on most mp3 players, then people wont buy it!

    1. Re:DRM not helping by zakezuke · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The only thing that bothers me is that if i want to listen to my flatmates cd, i will want to put it on my ipod for a while. He uses media player to rip his music, so it wont play on my ipod.

      Then don't buy an ipod. I don't have an ipod, but I thought ipod did .mp3, or unless your saying your flatmate rips music to .wma format, in which case you should convince them to rip in .mp3 and avoid all that DRM crap and have the benefit of being able to burn discs that play in most DVD players. Parodon my ipod ignorance on this issue.

      I personally am holding out for a portable music player that reads .mp3 on DVD media. It's what my DVD player understands, it's what my PC understands, and the media is a heck of a lot cheaper than flash memory solutions.

      If music companies sat down and thought about what they are doing, they would realise that they are competing against the mp3 player market, because if they dont sell something that plays on most mp3 players, then people wont buy it!

      That's just it. They are not interested in selling you what you want, only what they want to sell. Vinyl, 8 track, cassette, CD, SACD/DVD-A, Microsoft audio CD(whatever that's called), it's in the industry's best interest to create short term standards so you buy the same thing over and over again.

      --
      There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
  3. Ownership by smokeslikeapoet · · Score: 4, Interesting

    While I understand I don't own a copyright. I do think that if I buy a cd/dvd/download that I should have the right to copy/play/replay the media for my own personal use. Unless of course I agreed in advance that my use would be limited (video rental, pay-per-view). If I want to make a copy of my cd/dvd/download and convert it to any format that I deem necessary to enjoy the content then that is my right! I am claiming it as my right. It doesn't really matter at all what any law says. You can take my ipod out of my cold dead hands because I bought the freaking CDs!!!

  4. DRM Alternative by Luke+Psywalker · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There is a DRM alternative in the way of an inaudible signature key inside a waveform. You can use the files as you see fit, however if they are found on a P2P network you will get busted because they will have your details from when you purchased the track. You can even burn the audio file, rip it, re-encode it and the signature will still be there.

    1. Re:DRM Alternative by Ckwop · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This won't work. Say each download has a different inaudible signature key inside the waveform. All I have to do is download it twice and compare the two files. I then set an bits to zero that are different in the two files.

      There's a very high chance that i've totally destroyed the signature key by doing this.

      Simon.

    2. Re:DRM Alternative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      And what if your mp3 player is stolen ? Would the RIAA prosecute you ? Would all vendors put you on a blacklist for something you are not responsible for ?
      I don't want DRM, but I don't want to be filed as well.

    3. Re:DRM Alternative by @madeus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If (as it seems to me the original poster was suggesting) you take two files that are the same (from different sources, e.g. one from you, one from someone else), and diff them then you will be able to remove the wartermarking that uniquely identifies you as the owner.

      You could even build the ability to have this wartermarking removed automatically by P2P software (even without having to transfer the entire file to a given user at any point, e.g. just by comparing info of various random segments of the file), if you were that way inclined.

      If someone did use the same identifier for multiple users, then they can't trace it down to a specific user, so even if they are left in, those bits are effectively worthless.

  5. Re:consumers voicing their opinion? by Dr.Opveter · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Well, for some consumers anyway. I stopped buying audio CD's a number of years ago, trying to show what i thought about the price/quality of CD's.
    I haven't tried to purchase any music online yet but i will not buy any less than CD quality DRM files at high prices.
    I mean if i can buy a full album cd package for a couple of bucks more than the DRM download version i would not even consider it a worthwile effort. It works for single tracks, but for people who want the whole album it doesn't make sense.

    --
    Sample this!
  6. Who would have thought by Groo+Wanderer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Once again, the mainstream media catches up to my rants. Sigh.
    http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=16999
    For each of the people pissed off by DRM, they will warn off dozens of others, and the music industry will soon find themselves in a world of hurt. Oh wait, they are already there.

    When you piss off your customers with draconian measures designed to suck money out of their wallets at your whim, they stop buying. Duh. The correct answer to this dillema is not to turn the knob up to 11, but to turn it down, or better yet off. The music industry can't seem to grasp this concept.

    Maybe it is me, am I missing something? Has the whole strategy of 'make them hate us more than the Nazis' ever lead to greater profits?

    -Charlie

  7. Cory Doctorow was right by Kartoch · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Remember me the speech of Cory Doctorow given to Microsoft's Research Group.:

    Here's what I'm here to convince you of:
    1. That DRM systems don't work
    2. That DRM systems are bad for society
    3. That DRM systems are bad for business
    4. That DRM systems are bad for artists
    5. That DRM is a bad business-move for MSFT
    --
    Ceci n'est pas une signature.
  8. Nyeah, Told You So by turgid · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Most of us here could see this happening. I really despair at mass media, the general public and big companies. No one listens.

    So people are annoyed that they can't transfer the files they've paid for, the sound quality isn't that good and sometimes they've paid for something that didn't download properly so they paid to download it again?

    More fool them: the consumers and the companies.

    I'll stick to buying CDs (but not the Copy Protected ones) by bands I like and going to live shows.

    The fundamental problem here is that the music industry wants to get rich off of simplistic, mass-produced music, i.e. the stuff that appeals to young kids with no money.

    If they want a healthy, sustainable and profitable business they need to downsize and focus on producing a quality product.

    --
    Stick Men
  9. Major Rant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I posted this in my blog a hour or so ago, it goes off topic toward the end.

    I won't be buying a significant amount of new music anytime soon. $15 for a CD is simply too much, and with high-speed Internet access there's no need to do so. Why should I pay for a $15 CD if I only want a song or two off it? There was (is?) a store that offered custom-burned CDs, but that was likely stopped by the music industry.

    The music industry simply won't change in response to Internet piracy. They still act as it's 1990 and there is no alternate way to get music.

    The simplest way to fight piracy is to lower the prices on downloadable music, to say 25 cents per song. This would replace the music industy's model of high priced / low sales with a low priced / high sales model. This would cause most of the downloaders of free music to switch to online stores, but it won't move everyone over.

    The second step, which is required to get the advanced users into it, would be to stop using "Digital Restrictions Management." Fortunately, at such a low price per song, the volume would cover any loses to piracy while allowing any song to work with any device. I can't imagine the same numbers of these advanced users sharing music when it would be easier to download them at the low price of 25 cents.

    Download sites should also increase the bitrate (quality) of the legal tracks online. Offering lossy formats doesn't provide a superior product. When I have the choice of two files online, I download the higher-quality one.

    The last step is to offer "bootlegs" and "unreleased" tracks, which is an issue seldom addressed. There's a great version of Led Zeppelin's "No Quarter" that runs more than 10 minutes, but due to a very minor analog distortion that I didn't notice until a trained musician pointed it out to me, is not available for purchase anywhere. I'm a Zep fan and I would gladly pay for a CD of live and unreleased Zeppelin songs even if they weren't perfect in the ears of Jimmy Page. I imagine there's countless other examples of songs that aren't available any other way than "illegal" downloading.

    The copyright system needs to be reformed, since copyright is:

    " To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;" - US Constitution (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/a rticle01/)

    I can't say music is a "useful art", nor is it a science. Copyright isn't for securing a permanant income stream for the author and his descentdants and corporations. (paraphrased from another /. poster)

    For example, Disney's Steamboat Willy (a percursor to Mickey Mouse) is from the 1920s, and will never be "publick domain" in my lifetime thanks to the amazing power of corporations in our government. If one was a lawmaker and wanted to reform these laws, I'm sure ABC's (owned by Disney) stations and reports would take a bit more of a negative view of that lawmaker.

    The movie industry is also worried about piracy, and since many movie studios are in corporations that also own music labels, they're not taking this issue lightly. It shouldn't be as big of an issue, as not nearly as many people expect to download free movies online.

    The movie/tv industry needs to move now to take advantage of the Internet rather than viewing it as inherently evil. Don't wait until the masses discover downloading movies!

    A full movie usually fits on a single DVD, and is between 2-4GB. If a site offered movies for 10 a piece I'd download some of them, provided there is no DRM involved.

    Let's take any TV show, say "South Park" for example which is already out on DVD. There's countless ways to get it illegally online, which I prefer to do rather than watch it on TV and it's constant commercial interuptions.

    There's no reason why a movie or show can't be released online after it's original primary airing. This woul

  10. Re:it was bound to happen by mustrum_ridcully · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Mind you Apple are being taken to the European Court because they prevent UK downloaders from using the French and German iTunes sites and getting cheaper downloads.

    For those of you who don't know the EUs single market prohibits this, a person from one EU must be able to buy something from another EU state as if they were living there - no discrimination can be made on grounds of nationality - thereby ensuring the free movement of goods.

  11. Cory Doctorow (Speaking to MSFT about DRM) by putko · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Cory Doctorow (Speaking to MSFT about DRM)

    ... I speak from experience. Because I buy a new Powerbook every ten months, and because I always order the new models the day they're announced, I get a lot of lemons from Apple. That means that I hit Apple's three-iTunes-authorized-computers limit pretty early on and found myself unable to play the hundreds of dollars' worth of iTunes songs I'd bought because one of my authorized machines was a lemon that Apple had broken up for parts, one was in the shop getting fixed by Apple, and one was my mom's computer, 3,000 miles away in Toronto.

    If I had been a less good customer for Apple's hardware, I would have been fine. If I had been a less enthusiastic evangelist for Apple's products -- if I hadn't shown my mom how iTunes Music Store worked -- I would have been fine. If I hadn't bought so much iTunes music that burning it to CD and re-ripping it and re-keying all my metadata was too daunting a task to consider, I would have been fine.

    As it was Apple rewarded my trust, evangelism and out-of-control spending by treating me like a crook and locking me out of my own music, at a time when my Powerbook was in the shop -- i.e., at a time when I was hardly disposed to feel charitable to Apple.

    I'm an edge case here, but I'm a *leading edge* case.     If Apple succeeds in its business plans, it will only be a matter of time until even average customers have upgraded enough hardware and bought enough music to end up where I am.

    --
    http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_s tone_your_children/dt21_18a.html
  12. Quelle suprise... by TractorBarry · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well I live in England and am technically British (another story) and I for one will have nothing whatsoever to do with digital restrictions management.

    If it's DRM crippled I'm simply not buying it. If it's region code crippled I'm not buying it. If I can't use it the way I want to I'm not interested. Ner nerny ner ner.

    Sadly however most people couldn't care less, don't actually understand the issues, and will just buy whatever crap's dangled in front of their noses. "ooh look at it, it's so SHINY". Then I get to say "told you so" and laugh at them whilst they curse loudly and smash their shiny new toys to bits after it's lost their entire music/photo collection :)

    Ho hum c'est la vie.

    --
    Sky subscribers are morons. They pay to be advertised at !
  13. Re:A good thing, too by ajs318 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    You get a surprising number of 'fair-use' privileges
    Fair Use is a right, not a privilege. Copyright is a privilege; the "right" bit is just Doublespeak.
    --
    Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
  14. Re:it was bound to happen by xtracto · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Halleluya! But I think thats not 100%, I live in UK and before arriving here I thought I would find cheaper CD's than in my country (I am from Mexico), to my surprise, while in MX the CD's (European Metal) where like $15 USD each one, here in UK they are at GBP 15 (darn pund symbol =oP), and in Spain, France and other EU countries they are cheaper (13 Euros)... that really pisses me off!

    But, I think that is because Britons do not care about the price of things, when I come from a country where a $1 peso (like $.1 USD) rebate, is always welcomed!,

    Darn, I have even seen people leaving .40 GBP (pences) in the chocolate vending machines!! it seems they put the pound and they dont like the change. I make the conversion and think "oh my god, it is $8.0 MXP!!! I can buy a chocolate with that =oD)

    --
    Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
  15. Licencing is GOOD by Crass+Spektakel · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Licensing is good as long as it is 90% or more cheaper than buying! Would you lifetime-licence your favourite CD for 1,5 instead of buying it for 15? Well, I would. Would you pay 0,5 Cent for listening once to your favourite CD instead of buying it for 15? Well, I would.

    Until then... well, not for me, kids. I am not stupid enough to licence a CD for 30 when I can get the original for 15. I won't pay per listen a whooping 15 when I can get the Original for 15.

    --
    "Life is short and in most cases it ends with death." Sir Sinclair
  16. Replacing media by CyrusSukhia · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So now that content is licensed the content, who do i contact to have my media replaced when it gets ruined? Certainly I shouldn't have to pay the full retail price for a new CD since I already have the license...

  17. Re:it was bound to happen by mikael · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That's why the manufacturing companies refer to the UK as "Treasure Island". Because the UK is an island, there is a financial disincentive for people to go into neighbouring countries and buy cheaper products there.

    The only time such behaviour is profitable is when the taxes are high enough to offset the cost of transportation; in particular alcohol and tobacco products.

    --
    Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
  18. AllofMP3: not if you're 80 or older by rvw · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I just tried to register with allofmp3.com. Because I just wanted to see what they offer, I used a fake name. Then I had to enter my age. I entered 100. I was quite surprised to see that it didn't work: "more correctly input your age", was the message I got.

    I tried 90, then 80, and got accepted at 70. At first I thought it was really smart russian hacking (being able to correct me lying about my age), but as they only got to just within the 100% error margin, it couldn't be thát smart.

    Although I expect not many people will be excluded by this marketing technique, I'm surprised they even check for this.

  19. Fool me once, shame on you... by sdo1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ... fool me twice, shame on me.

    I bought and downloaded some .wmv baseball game footage from MLB.com (last year's playoff games). They even advertised that I could "burn it to CD!". This is the first time I've bought anything like that, so I'm figuring "Great! I'll be able to make a VCD of it.". Wrong. The things are so heavily DRM'd that even the fast-forward buttons are disabled.

    Oh, and yes, I can burn the files to CD... as data. But I can't do a damn thing with them. I still need to be at my internet enabled PC so it can check for authorization any time I want to watch them.

    I figured I'd give iTunes a try having read that their DRM isn't nearly as draconian. Well, it's basically the same issues though not to the same extent. And the sound quality sucks.

    Fooled me twice... shame on me.

    I hope the media companies hear this loud and clear... I will GLADLY buy high-quality un-DRM'd content. Let me repeat that... GLADLY. That means lossless compression for audio and DVD quality for video. They need to figure out their distribution model. I find it hard to believe that manufacturing discs and paying for shipping and retail overhead is a better cost model than allowing download. But for now, I will continue to buy CDs and DVDs because I can then rip the content and have the high-quality un-DRM'd files that I'm looking for. OR, they could increase their profit margin by allowing the same thing as a data transfer.

    -S

    --
    --- What parts of "shall make no law", "shall not be infringed", and "shall not be violated" don't you understand?
  20. Re:A good thing, too by Doctor_Jest · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I for one would rather Apple have more leverage in this with regard to their negotiations with the tyrannical RIAA. If they did, you'd see considerably less restriction on the music, if any at all. Remember, Apple isn't the one pushing the DRM, the RIAA is. Apple couldn't care less if the music got shared by some people. Attractive pricing, a good model (iTunes/iPod fit like a glove), and an ever-growing catalog of music (including independent and niche artists) are what is driving Apple's success. The DRM is a lead weight that keeps it from becoming even more huge, thanks to the RIAA.

    In the case of the Apple DRM, It's at least easy, if not slightly convenient, to remove the DRM if you had to, but that's really not the point I suppose. This whole "copy protected" music idea has done nothing that it was intended to do, except inconvenience those of us who don't use P2P to get our music.

    I am glad I can put the tunes on my iPod and iPod Shuffle, and I am glad I can burn copies for my archive and my road mixes. If the store were to close tomorrow, I have an advantage over other online music purchasers.... I get to keep my music. They don't. THANKS, RIAA! :)

    I can't understand how anyone would allow themselves to be subjected to MUSIC RENTAL. It's got to be the DUMBEST idea since Divx. (the dvd "rental" model.)

    As for crippled CD's, I've gotten two so far. Both of them from record labels that I would consider non-mainstream. I won't buy any more of their records. Period. If they consider that to be a "loss to piracy", they can get bent. It's a loss because my stereo (my macintosh) won't play the music. Sell me a broken product, and you won't have me as a customer very long. I don't give second chances.

    --
    It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
  21. Tell me about it... by turgid · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Darn, I have even seen people leaving .40 GBP (pences) in the chocolate vending machines!! it seems they put the pound and they dont like the change. I make the conversion and think "oh my god, it is $8.0 MXP!!! I can buy a chocolate with that =oD)

    There's a lot of snobbery here in the UK (not just England). If people drop their change on the ground, they often won't pick it up for fear of appearing cheap.

    People here often go out of their way to buy the most expensive stuff they can because they think it must be better or to show everyone else just how rich and discerning they are.

    Like you, I've often had many free snacks from vending machines because people have walked off and left their change. I've also almost managed to fund a night out from picking up the odd pund here and there off the floor...

    I've had many useful computer parts from the local rubbish dump.

    I'm not a miserable, stingy Scottish git for nothing :-)

    --
    Stick Men
  22. "Inaudible" watermarks by tepples · · Score: 2, Interesting

    you might get rid of the watermark but you will make so much nasty "twinkle" in the resulting mp3 that nobody will care you are sharing it.

    And who's to say that the watermarking process itself won't create a nasty "twinkle" in golden ears?

  23. People need to wake up by hyc · · Score: 2, Interesting

    As I wrote in my journal http://yro.slashdot.org/~hyc/journal/85312

    the real point here is that music has to belong to individual people, not big corporations. The RIAA isn't doing anybody any favors; most of the new artists that get signed by labels get screwed by contract terms that whittle all their sales earnings down to less than 1/100th of a percent of the gross, while the record companies take the rest. The only way to fix this situation is for artists to remain independent and market/distribute their music on their own. Anybody can set up a web site and put up copies of their music for sale/download. With the Internet today, you don't need the RIAA.

    --
    -- *My* journal is more interesting than *yours*...
  24. The case of the disappearing music by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
    I explained in my blog a few weeks ago why I won't buy DRM'd media.

    The RIAA often whines about how hard it is to compete with free. They've got a point, but they're going about it all wrong. If they offered the ability to legitimately purchase something comparable in quality to what's being shared online, I think customers would gladly pay for it. I know I would. But instead, they offer music that is chained to an extremely limited number of computers, is artificially incompatible with your MP3 player, and that you likely won't be able to listen to at all in five years.

    Note to RIAA: You are losing business specifically because of DRM. Allow your customers to purchase non-DRM-encrusted music online--That's how to keep honest people honest.
  25. The case of the disappearing music by yeremein · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm always surprised that articles about DRM seldom if ever mention the fact that all DRM'd content is in effect printed on disappearing ink.

    If you remember to back up your licenses (provided your DRM lets you do that in the first place), you can take your music and ebooks with you to your new computer. But you can't do that indefinitely. Microsoft, for example, only lets you do it twice. After that, all your paid-for content is simply gone.

    I wrote about this in some detail on my blog last week.

  26. Re:Obscure music and ridiculous prices by krouic · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In a free market, a comptetitor would be able to offer a single track, rather than the complete CD, at a more suitable price for me.

    However, the copyright laws grant the entertainment industry a (almost) permanent monopoly on their product.

    Hence the "core terms of a free market" do not apply here.

  27. My wife noticed this a while ago. by edunbar93 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Some time ago, I bought my wife a Sony Network Walkman(TM). It was exactly what she wanted, a portable MP3 player that could hold all her CDs, and it can even be used as a network hard drive to back up all the photos and artwork she creates on the computer.

    About a month later she joined one of the music sites available in Canada. Try as she might, she couldn't copy the songs she downloaded onto her mp3 player and get them to play, even after talking to the site's tech support. She closed her account and tried to get her money back.

    Then she said "Fuck that then. I'm going to steal the music instead. At least I know it will work."
    (Of course, stealing the music in Canada is legal thanks to our current tax on such things as MP3 players and blank CDs and DVDs)

    --
    "No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert