Slashdot Mirror
Education Qualifications for a Network Admin?
Volkov137 asks: "As I ponder where to go after high school for a future job in Network Administration, I have a couple of choices. Either go to a University and get a 4-year bachelors degree in Computer Networking and Administration, or go to a 2-year trade school that will be much more focused on what I need to know. Is the University really worth paying for, and will it mean anything more in today's IT world? Also, how important are certifications (Network+, Cisco, Linux+, etc) when entering this job market?"
I understand that Univ education is expensive but it is worth it. Studying in a univ broadens your outlook in a big way. You can handle competition better because you are amongst intelligent people and you do a lot of networking not to forget the hot chics!! :) A univ is a better developing ground for your overall personality.
I have a better idea.
Jump right in somewhere that is willing to hire you. Work hard, establish a good chunk of resume material from that company and then move onward if necessary after a couple years. Nothing beats real world experience and I've found that people who learned what they know through their own passion and desire (and real world implementation) tend to be far more enthusiastic and adaptable and quick to learn new concepts and skills and frameworks than people who just sat in a chair at a university or trade school for a handful of years, learning soon to be outdated material from professors or instructors who rarely implement their own knowledge in a real environment.
Not to mention, things in the real work environment are rarely anything like what you've learned in school and you'll have to be broken of your old habits.
Also, don't forget that the older you get, the harder it is to go to school.
"My girlfriend's got sodium laureth sulfate hair."
I'm currently in a 4-year program at UIUC. For 95% of the things a network admin needs to do, a two year trade school is sufficient. But you learn a lot of useful skills, and learn how things work on a lower level, in a university. For example, in the networking lab class we write our own TCP/IP stack from scratch, so we really understand how things work better. Or in our OS design class we write a software RAID 0+1 driver module for linux. A university degree also makes it a lot easier to get your first job in today's competitive job market.
It depends what you want to do . . ,then the trade school may be far more benifical.
.
If your more intrested in the Theory and constructing networks, then the university would be more you thing
However if your more intrested in running systems and their upkeep and maintenance
As for Certs , unfortunatly they have become a nesecity in our day and age
A little bit of paper saying your qualified to do A:B:C:D etc are what many employers look at when selecting candidates to interview , but choose carefully. Some really are total fluff whilst others will give you a really solid grounding in a system.
The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
Unless you plan on administering really large networks, you really don't need school to wire an RJ-45 jack or configure a router. These are things, if you have a technical mind, that you can learn fairly easily from a book.
On the other hand, large networks are where the real fun is. I'd say which schooling to get depends on your long-term goals. There is a lot of theory involved in network design (including a lot of math). A technical program will skip over most of this, which you will regret if you want to do the really important stuff. If you're just looking for a 9-5 and actual implementation, or just smaller networks, you'll probably find the technical program more to your liking.
Be relentless!
The problem is that it's difficult to find truly credible technical schools (unless you want to spend as much or more than you would have spent on a university education in the first place). A lot of them present themselves one way to the public and to the government accrediting agencies, but are little more than mills on the inside. Prepare to be bored to death.
Then again, if you can find a place that's both affordable and respected, go for it. But you're still just going to be learning things that you could learn faster and grasp better if you were doing it in the real world for a living.
As far as the university stuff goes - in this day and age, there's no point in specializing. Take a path of "general education" in school. It will simply make you a more rounded person, though it won't really directly apply to any one career choice. However, with that you can then establish your footing in whatever chosen career you might have at one time or another by taking additional specialized classes later on.
I'm a bit biased, as I've made a relatively successful career without any formal education to speak of. I'm one of those guys who simply loves technology, educated himself, worked his way into a position with a great company and learned everything necessary while I was there. I wouldn't trade it for sitting in a classroom with a text book and some guy lecturing me about network topologies and file systems who himself hasn't had a real tech job in a decade.
Open the classified's section of your local paper and look for a decent job. Notice how many, many jobs require a B.A./B.S. That is the reality. You can't really plan on securing one job and keeping it forever. You also can't really guarantee (in most cases) that you will always be doing the type of work you planned. You need to be flexible.
The content - the specific details - that you learn in school may or may not be applicable in 5-10 years. However, your ability to retrain yourself and gain new skills will always apply when you are motivated. Make sure you education is flexible enough to serve you long-term.
The University will waste your time and money with classes that have no bearing on your job. The University usually focuses on theory and generalizations of concepts with some specifics. Universities are more interested in creating a well rounded educated employee. But, employers don't care if you took Western Civ. They want to know if you can fix their network. Having said that, you do need to understand network theory. Learning how to run a MS based network is different from actually knowing how networks in general operate. This is knowledge that you can pick up through books.
If you KNOW that network admin is what you want, then got to the trade school. They will teach you alot of information that will be very useful in the job market and a lot of their classes will be hands on with networks. If you aren't positive, the course is only two years. When you get out you can try another major. In the mean time you have a degree of some type. This will at least help you get some money rolling in while you decide what you want to do. Never underestimate the need to pay your car note, rent, electric bill and cable.
Going the experience route won't get you anywhere. Very few people are willing to hire someone with no prior experience in networking. Even if a company does hire you, they aren't going to teach you diddly squat. They will expect you to learn on your own, which is great if you can pick it up quickly. If you have problems understanding some concepts they won't be nurturing. They will just fire you.
You get great life experiences at college. You have bragging rights that you are a college graduate. College graduates make more money than non-college graduates. You get the proper instruction that you need from very smart professors. You have a whole network of faculty and student members who you can bring your questions to. You can work part time or volunteer and gain work experience AND a college degree. Go get your 4 year degree, it will pay for itself hundreds of times over in the long run.
The only problem is that CCs vary a lot in what they offer, and you might have to look pretty far afield to find one with that suits your needs. I took some IT courses once at College of Marin in Novato (very well taught, but too Microsoft-centric) and discovered that some of my classmates were coming from as far away as San Leandro. A serious commute!
Good thing I am 16 now :)
However, be wary of "engineering technology" type degrees. Typically, you'll be wasting your time and money. If you're going to go to college, go for the gold and get a real degree: math, physics, computer science, engineering, etc. These are a lot more impressive than a trade school diploma with B.S. on it. That said, work while in school. Nothing is more worthless than a degree without work experience. There is a delicate balance to strike. Getting a trade school type degree is a quick and easy way to start out but might hamper your future advancement as upper level jobs are almost certain to require a four year degree.
"Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman
If you just want to be a network admin, there's really little need for any X-year degree, although if you take it seriously, it can help you develop critical writing, reading and analytical skills nessecary to be successful in the business world. For configuring routers and plugging cables together, a 4 year Bachelor's degree would quite simply be overkill. And you might even find out you'd rather be doing something else instead of Network Administration.
The benefits of the degree here is mostly a worst case scenario. Imagine if Dell, Intel and Cisco got their shit together and realized they could offer their business clients a shitload of value by making a secure and quickly configurable networking system, complete with wireless and other staff reducing technologies. All they'd need is one guy on staff to handle the purchasing and manage the hiring of a few local punks from the local high school to run a few wires to access points over the summer. Now the company wins, the manager might lose a bit of self-importance as his staff and budget is being cut, but the two year degree guy is SOL. I suppose he can go back for another two year degree, although its usually far harder to go back the second time, either because of family or a fodness for material goods and car repairs.
Right now, you're the local high school punk. If you find and study for one or two certs, you should be able to pick up some work. I've seen ads for A+ people in the classifieds, and you can use that income to pick up something serious. As much as I dislike vendor certifications, it is my understanding that Cisco is really respected within IT departments (compared to say, microsoft certs). Long term outlook isn't much better than a two year degree, espcially something like ITT or DeVry. Remember that these places have shareholders; giving accurate but negative advice on the future outlook would hurt enrollment and share price, subsequently. If you're lucky, you make your way to department manager. Otherwise, I hear nursing's always in demand.
The four year degree offers flexibility. Sure, they'll throw a lot of crap at you, and so much of it that very little actually applies to any particular of today's jobs, but you'll also be prepared for far more than just network administration. Furthermore, you're also that much more prepared and likely to be accepted into an MBA program, which often becomes a prerequisite for promotion in the kinds of large networking environments that would need someone with a degree full time.
In summary, a four year degree lends you flexibility, and the two year degree locks you into a career path you may not be happy with five years from now. It's a tragic fact of life that the most important career choices are made now, when you're least informed and capable of making them. As Paul Graham said, stick with the choices that expand future choices, rather than limit them.
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
I'm 35 years old and have been working with computers for over 23 of those years. I made the choice to not get a degree in Computer Science. Even though I've had a good career as a Sys Admin and independant consultant, I think my decision to not get a 4 year degree was one of the worst I've made.
I got a 2 year diploma as an electronics technician, which at the time was a good paying job. Tell me, how many jobs are out there for board-level electronics repair today? Network administration will go the same way. Oh sure there'll be some jobs out there, but not necessarily 10 years from now.
Get your degree. It's a small amount of time, and even if you decide to not stick with computers, having that degree opens the doors to everything else.
Ruby on Rails Screencast
Your post doesn't present any usable advice. You can't get a job in a field without experience and you can't get experience without a job. So how does one get into the field? They either start at the very bottom and hope to one day work their way up to where they want to be; or they get some type of education in the subject.
I am tired of people saying that all you need is "to know what you are doing." But these people never explain how they "know what they are doing." Experience counts in any profession, so that is a non-starter. Sort of like saying that you need to wear clothes for your interview. It is frivulous advice. If people want to actually give useful advice, explain how one goes about learning what they need to know. But simply saying that all you need is to "know what you are doing" is so simplistic and won't help anyone.
B.S. Pick a school with a co-op if you must have experience. Also, at least from my school, very few end up in the same field as their major. I'm going for CE/EE but it already looks like I might be heading towards Materials at my job. After that, who knows.
I know that at my school (www.ketttering.edu) we do have practical skills, job experience, and the theory. There are several other schools just like Kettering. I recommend one if you are worried about experience.
You can't get a job in a field without experience and you can't get experience without a job. So how does one get into the field?
Any quality school system in the US at least offers students an internship program with various local businesses. Where I went to school, internships weren't only available, they were mandatory for graduation. Apparently, having a quality school system is rare, or I wouldn't have gotten what is essentially a "but I didn't have a quality high school education, you insensitive clod!" post in response.
I am tired of people saying that all you need is "to know what you are doing." But these people never explain how they "know what they are doing." Experience counts in any profession, so that is a non-starter.Well, you could go the clueless route and not know what you're doing going in, but don't be surprised if you get job barely above minimum wage at the end of a gridlocked Silicon Forest commute to assemble printers at Tektronix...
Help us build a better map!
I don't think I have the grades for Kettering (3.1 GPA [has decreased over high school] and a 26 ACT) or the money for a private school. I do know a couple people who are going there next year.
If you want to get into Kettering, call up admissions and talk to them. Then submit an app. Your GPA should be fine. That ACT is actually average I think. I had a lower GPA but a higher ACT when I got in. I don't think that really matters a whole lot though. Call up admissions and talk with them about it. You'll get in, because they are a business and a profitable one at that. i.e. they don't turn down money, especially since enrollment is dropping.
/.ers are KU.
As far as money goes, you can and will get financial aid. Even that GPA qualifies you for $3,500 a year I believe. It's not much compared to the whole cost of tuiton, but every little bit helps. After you are accepted though (assuming you apply and want to go there), getting on the ball, and finding a job is a big thing. The sooner you have any extra money and employment, the easier the loans come. And after your freshman term, you are a very poor, single 18 year old that the govt will decide needs lots of money since you will invariably be living on your own at work.
I think that if Kettering is something you're interesting in, you should go for it. We have rolling admission, which means you could apply for Winter 2006 and start in January. I actually did this since I found a job about a week before I was to start. It turned out to be a great move.
Anyway, if you have any questions, drop me a line. My email is adam4300@kettering.edu. We need more
I have always put off learning Linux, because I've just been under the mindset that Windows is easier, why bother? But, now I can really see where it can help me out. Now all I have to do is find a spare computer to run a Linux distro with.
The person said all you need is a HS Diploma and to know your stuff. You have introduced education into a conversation that excluded education. You say that "you could go the clueless route and not know what you are doing." I am not the one advocating that, that is what the message I was replying to was advocating. I am not the one say you don't need education, the other person is. I basically agree with everything you said and have since the beginning.
One of the problems with Kettering I see, is that they really don't have any clear outline of classes I should take to get into the field, unlike Michigan Tech or Ferris State, which offer 4-year programs in Computer Networking. Do you recommend a certain path at Kettering?
The problem is, no one wants to accept a 16 year old kid into their internship program, for the same reason they don't want a 5 year old running around in an antique shop. I have taken an A+ cert class in high school (and passed the test) and I am currently taking a Cisco class as well. The teacher has real world experience that he shares with us, and it sounds interesting to me, considering I am like everyone else on /., a geek. I sit on a computer all day, browsing through tech forums, giving people advice with their problems. I learn something new everyday.
But yes, I do read several Tech Journals, and subscribe to 3 Tech RSS feeds and keep up to date. I just do it in addition to gather knowledge. Getting real world experience is tough at my age. I have sent out 3 applications for an internship, all turned down. Maybe in a couple years.
Why bother learning lots of theory, higher math, abstract concepts and higher level thinking skills that you will never need?
Answer: Because he may want to do something else later in his life. A 4 year degree may not solve everything and land you the cushy job or whatever, but it will give you a more diverse background.
||:|::
Of course, I'm still working toward going back to school for CS. There are a lot of interesting things to do in IT, but IMHO none as interesting as computer science.
Call me a troll if you need but....
after many years of working with people who have not gone to college and those who have, a software engineer or a system administrator that goes to college always has the advantage.
From the 80's of blowing away today's equivilent of heald graduates, to the boom and outsourcing of today where there is no way in Hell India can create 200,000 skilled computer people all from colleges that are as good as ours overnight.
I've been though it all. I've been kicking ass for 23 years. I'm still learning. I'm still reinventing myself. People still feel I have more than enough to contribute.
People who truly go to a 4 year school and learn logic, mathmatics, the algorithms, concepts of multiple computer languages, how to build a compiler, how to create a database. The difference between database and data base, so their, errr... there. This is important. You will use it all, if you are lucky.
A 2 year school teaches just how and what. A college teaches you all 5, what, when where, why and how. When you know why, you can keep learning. If you only know what, your always behind waiting for the next guy to tell you! In this market, you have to reinvent yourself every 3-4 years.
So if a 2 year school gets you working sooner, then go for it. Then do not be disappointed when some "college puke" takes your next job from you.
Now if you want to take the 8 years to earn a degree part time, more power to you. I had to finish school part time. It is truly hard.
Take a path of "general education" in school.
Your advice, while common, isn't really feasible in today's schools. It is no longer possible to get a truly useful, truly "general" education without spending eight years in undergrad. Unless you're independently wealthy, or completely aimless, you wouldn't want to do that.
Even then, you'd need to have a total fuckoff as an advisor. The University's goal is to crank out as many future contributors as possible. They don't want to let people hang around taking up slots for incoming students, even though your money is as green as theirs.
Especially in the hard sciences, any halfway decent program will expect you to eat, sleep, and breathe whatever it is they're teaching. By the time you're a Junior, you'll be practically living in your major's department. High schools are even becoming more specialized.
The entire system is geared towards giving you a very specialized education that will be useful for about ten years. After that, you'll have to come back for more. Can you see how this would be advantageous to a University?
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
Leaving high school, I was certain I wanted to do something with computers... but who knew what? I went to a largish university with a good undergraduste CS program. It was only during the course of those four years that I realized that systems administration and network engineering were what I really wanted to do. Meanwhile, many of my peers had changed major once or several times. My point is that it's unlikely that what you want now is what you'll want later. Keep your options open.
In the other direction, I can point to quite a few sysadmins and network engineers with degrees in engineering, chemistry, physics, medieval literature or technical writing. The world changes fast enough that learning how to think systematically, solve new problems and recognize old problems in new guises is more important than the domain of technical knowledge you eventually build.
As far as computer networking, I'd say the closest would be Comp Sci with a minor in Business. That would let you take all of the available networking courses, plus give you a soild background in management. I'd also tell you that very, very few universities are going to teach you what you need to be a good admin, if that's what you are in fact looking for with computer networking.
From experience as a consultant and a small-time admin, I'd tell you that the best way to learn networking is hands on, building up a website and network yourself.
This is because univerisities, as a rule, stress the ability to find solutions and ways to think about problems, rather than "this is your problem, here is what to do". In that sense, a tech school would be what you are looking for, but keep in mind that as technology changes, your ability to change with it is what makes you valuable.
Also, about getting into the field, I'd recommend taking a co-op with a company that will let you handle networking. I know that various government agencies and research labs hire co-ops from Kettering as admins, and if that is what you want to do, it would be a good thing. What better way to enter into the field than to be in the field? The nice thing about this, is, in addition to the experience and the money, you know if that's what you really want to do. If not, there's still time to change your degree and your co-op.
That degree is pretty much crap. They are going to teach you about computers, networks, administration, etc. without any Computer Science or Engineering, or anything on the business side either (good to know what your boss or boss's boss is talking about). Get a degree that actually teaches you about the hardware and/or software.
I have never met anyone who went to university and regretted it later. I have met quite a few people who did not go to university and do regret that.
--- These are not words: wierd, genious, rediculous
Yes, real work experience (and good references, and good social networking) are what finally land you the job that you want.
Unfortunately, lack of a degree is what gets your resume pitched without having been looked at. (and I say that from experience, in having to sort through stacks of resumes).
Resumes are more than just a piece of paper to say that you know something (which you probably don't, give today's educational systems) -- it's a piece of paper that says that you stuck with something for 4 years that was hard work, and mind numbingly boring at times. (or 7 years, in my brother's case).
If your mind isn't in the right frame of mind for school yet, then take a year off -- but don't put it off too long, or you'll never go back, 'till it's too late, and your mind isn't as receptive to new knowledge (or able to deal with the long hours). Some employers will fund your education -- although, this might not be the best time to go into the military. [well, you can play the odds on what the situation will be in 4 years]
If you're going to work during college, try to find the jobs where they need warm bodies, like computer operator (you sit and babysit the machines overnight, incase something goes wrong). You can get some homework done, while getting paid to be there all night. And on those nights that you don't have homework, you play video games. The pay's not great, but when you can fit in 30hrs at $7/hr, because you're getting your homework done, it's better than 20hrs at $12/hr, and not getting your work done.
University jobs are also good, because they're convenient. (every hour not spent in transit is an hour you could be doing homework, getting paid, or sleeping).
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
VMWare has a 30 day trial for their basic product, made everlasting with a serial number.
It will let you just virtualise the computer. Much easier than installing on a new PC (And lets you install yoour distro straight from the ISO).