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Congress to Revisit the Patriot Act
BlakeCaldwell writes "CNet is reporting that both the House and Senate are planning to review the 16 portions of the Patriot Act that are set to expire at the end of the year, several dealing with computer and Internet surveillance. They're trying to avoid the criticism they received after rushing this bill through in 2001 by holding hearings to review the bill's worth. FTA: 'One hearing disclosed police invoked the Patriot Act 108 times in a 22-month period when surreptitiously entering and searching a home or office without notifying the owner.'"
None of us can deny the fact they put an expiration date on this law. This feature was great forsight and will allow us to (more easily) modify or delete the Patriot Act.
So if the people really do hate the Patriot Act it will be known when it gets modified/deleted.
I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
Thank you for posting this. Most people don't get past a knee jerk reaction and bother to look at what is really in Patriot beyond the FUD.
Usage Note: Irregardless is a word that many mistakenly believe to be correct usage in formal style, when in fact it is used chiefly in nonstandard speech or casual writing. Coined in the United States in the early 20th century, it has met with a blizzard of condemnation for being an improper yoking of irrespective and regardless and for the logical absurdity of combining the negative ir- prefix and -less suffix in a single term. Although one might reasonably argue that it is no different from words with redundant affixes like debone and unravel, it has been considered a blunder for decades and will probably continue to be so.
Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
~Z
9-11 stemmed from an intelligence community that had been left to rot for a decade, not from lack of domestic laws to deal with terrorists. It's pretty much been confirmed that there was damn little intelligence left in a good many Western nations' intelligence agencies. The Patriot Act was a kneejerk bit of legislation that a pack of panicky lawmakers signed up for (many of which weren't exactly clued in to what it even said). Do you really think you should be electing and paying lawmakers to pass legislation in this manner?
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
I view this as mere huff & puff. Any items that are not renewed, or are softened, will reappear in the coming months or years as riders on "necessary" bills that will be approved unanimously. These "new" provisions will not have expiration dates, and will not be so widely discussed & lambasted in the public/mainstream media.
What I can blame Bush II and his cabinet cronies for was letting the immediate threat of an attack slip through their hands. I can also blame him (and Tony Blair across the pond) for forcing their intelligence communities to spit out answers on Iraq that they wanted to hear.
If the argument for invading Iraq was sufficiently compelling (and we were dealing with one evil S.O.B. in Saddam Hussein) then why were all those intelligence agencies forced to spread the fertilizer? Now maybe in a century or so historians will go "Yeah, getting rid of the Baathist regime was a good move", and maybe it will spread democracy to the far reaches of the planet, but the fact remains that Bush and his crew bullshitted their way into a war using an intelligence community that had been asleep and ignoring the signs of an imminent attack.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
.. this is all due to be replace with the more concise:
Section 1.0 -- Government good, citizen bad.
Starsucks
While it has its problems, it is not 100% bad.
Ummm.... which part of it is not bad? OK, here's an easier question, which part of it would have stopped the 9/11 attacks?
We definitly need something in place
We have something in place, it's called the Constitution. What we need is for the law enforcement and intelligence communities to do their JOB within the restrictions laid out by the Constitution for protection of our freedoms. If this requires more funding and more people that's fine, lets give it to them, but let's not circumvent our freedoms just to make someone's job a little easier.
Find coupons in Greeley
Who are they trying to kid here? They pushed that Reael ID thing though last night and it was headlines on CNN and Fox News this morning. I'm not sure who said this, but I saw a saying that I think fits right in here:
"Only a Government afraid of its citizens tries to control them."
I'm not a troll, but I play one on Slashdot.
Not everyone was happy at first. It was just that the president had made a charming speech about being for us or against us. Even the Democrats were so scared of backlash that they just saddled on up and stood in the nice big family picture.
The time for intelligent and conscientiousness opposition is at moments such as these. What we saw was a bunch of politicians rushing to pass a law that many of them had little idea of. It was a irrational action.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
I guess Democrats must be looking beyond trying to get Kerry elected now, and thinking about how they're going to justify the post-911 decisions they made.
You can't "protect us from terrorists." It isn't possible. Ever.
The tenth anniversary of the Oklahoma City Bombing just passed. A single white man used diesel fuel and fertilizer, two of the most common things in America, to blow up a building.
You just *cannot* stop that, you cannot prevent it, you cannot catch such a person ahead except through extraordinary luck. A neighbour has to notice what the guy is making in his shed.
Terrorism is like murder. It's so easy, there's no point trying to catch murderers and terrorists before their first offense. All you can do is try to reduce the factors that motivate the crime and punish the perpetrators after, should they survive.
None of these powers will protect you. Even if every man woman and child in America were tracked by GPS twenty four hours a day, you would still have nutjobs buying the ordinary chemicals to build bombs and then exploding them, or stealing girls from shopping malls, or whatever. Hell, you'd have more, because everyone would be so crazy from being watched all the time.
America needs to heal its society, not crush all opposition.
Check the voting record, the democrats supported it by an overwhelming majority as well. This will not be a campaign issue for Republicans.
Max Cleland.
The Republicans destroyed that dude because he only went so far as to delay the passage of the Patriot Act originally. Cleland, due to losing 3 limbs in Vietnam(not due to heroics, but from dropping a grenade and trying to pick it up instead of kick it away, like you are trained to do) was considered untouchable and a lock for re-election to the Senate.
No one in Congress is going to become the next Max Cleland, just for your precious Civil Rights, so get used to it. Congress is made up of people who do nothing but protect themselves for their next election, and nothing, I repeat, NOTHING for you.
Most modern westerner politicians are so childish and have such stupid ways of setting their opinions it's quite scary they're the ones with the power...
And there are so damn few alternatives...
"The way we can tell it's C# instead of Haskell is because it's nine lines instead of two." -- wadler
Interesting...full story can be found here.
Odd how just when the Patriot Act comes up for review, a small plane flying off course happens by to remind us all that we must FEAR and OBEY...
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
It's not clear from your post whether you mean that the upcoming review of the Patriot Act signals a change or whether something else leads you to think that. In any case, you're 180 degrees off target.
The Republicans are hoping to find someone who will continue after President Bush because he's coming to the end of his final term. Grass root Republican still like him. By and large the leadership is not ashamed of their post-9/11 decisions, despite all the revisionist finger pointing going on in Washington.
If anything, the leadership is looking for someone who is more dynamic and smooth, and able to carry off centrism - sort of a right-wing Bill Clinton. I don't think that kind of person would be a successful candidate for them, but that's what they want.
To your other point: before 9/11/2001, none of us thought for a minute that something like that could happen here. Terroism happened in Europe and the Middle East, not here. We were trained by a century of domestic peace and foreign wars to believe that our oceans and good character would protect us.
We were all in shock, and that includes those in government. Can you imagine feeling responsible for 9/11? You could tell yourself everything I just said above, but still there would be the self-doubt asking whether you should have planned better.
The Patriot Act needs tweaking, obviously, where it violates the Fourth Amendment. But a lot of what's in it - such as allowing domestic and overseas law enforcement to share notes - can help defend our liberty without infringing it.
sigs, as if you care.
"Most people don't get past a knee jerk reaction and bother to look at what is really in Patriot beyond the FUD."
And this is just the summary of items scheduled to be repealed automatically. Some of the items that are NOT in the "sunset" clause are equally onerous.
Like the combination of Sections 201 and 805 which creates a net so ridiculously broad that every self-claimed conservative American should be jumping all over it as the gateway to a potential police state.
But no, instead many of these "conservatives" bend over like sheep under the false shiny label of "patriotism".
To which I would remind them all of the following:
"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." -James Madison
2. The Congress is accountable to NO ONE. It makes laws (if you have forgotten it).
3. The Press is controlled by Campaign Funders. See point 1 for clarification
4. Ultimately, it will 1984 in reality. Only this time we won't even know we can't talk about 1984.
The people are happy if they get Gas at less than 2.00 a Gallon. They are happy if NBA playoffs gets going. They are happy when the tax refund check arrives faster and larger. They are happy to sell their souls if it will give them a discount at Stop & Shop, Walmart, etc.
We are the People.
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
I hope that was sarcasm, or a troll attempt...but i'll bite anyways.
"If you're not doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to worry about" right?
We're moving ever closer to a surveillance state, where everything you do is watched 24/7 to make sure you aren't a "spy" or "terrorist". This is just one step closer. I mean seriously, look at all the rhetoric about "preventing terror" and "getting terrorists before they get us". What does that mean? Arresting, convicting, imprisoning people BEFORE they commit a crime. Is that how we want America to work? A country where everyone is watched on the suspicion that they "might" be up to no good? The gov't already has everyone looking over their shoulder and examining their neighbors to see if they "might" be a "spy" or a "terrorist". PATRIOT has already been abused by law enforcement officials. Do you honestly trust that they will behave themselves with RealID?
"But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong" - Dennis Miller
The ACLU is on record AGAINST an individual's right to bear arms. They claim to support a "collective right" which means we can arm the national guard.
What? Me? Sig?
Aren't you the cynic?
I am pretty sure the president gets voted into office because of the votes of the People. I am pretty sure a corporation doesn't get a vote. Maybe they can buy them ad-time, but thats about it.
As I recall we have a system "Checks and Balances" that lets the president veto congressional laws, and lets the supreme court name laws unconstitutional. That makes Congress accountable. Not to mention that if my senator wants my vote he better play ball with me and others like me. Will he go 100% my way - no, that is impossible to say. The only person on this planet who goes 100% my way is me...and sometimes that doesnt even happen.
I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
...is a happy citizen.
Congratulations on letting the B's of today turn your country into Oceania.
Thank you for posting this. Most people don't get past a knee jerk reaction and bother to look at what is really in Patriot beyond the FUD.
Man. We must be reading two different sets of provisions....because this shit makes my knees jerk all over the damn place. Roving wiretaps? Changing FISA so that they can have purposes other than foreign surveillence? Allowing secret searches of innocent third-parties, and threatening them with prison if they tell anyone?Are you fucking crazy!?
Given a choice between free speech and free beer, most people will take the beer.
Funny, yet insightful. But you see, they've already passed the bill that allows them to do whatever the hell they want without judicial review and as such have no need for the Patriot Act which can now be discarded.
Thanks to the recent bill that included Real ID, the head of the Department of Homeland Security can enact whatever measures they feel are necessary to fight the "war on terror" (however they choose to define it). Congressmen can say in campaign ads that they protected our liberties by striking down the unpopular Patriot Act all the while making governmental powers boundless.
Having laws on the books that are susceptible to congressional and judicial review (and public outrage) is so passe these days. The new hotness is secret provisions that are illegal for citizens to see. Mission accomplished. Tell me again who the greatest threat to our way of life is?
A lot of arguments about the PATRIOT Act (which I do think desperately needs radical revision) are very light on facts.
A good example is the article here. "One hearing disclosed police invoked the Patriot Act 108 times in a 22-month period" would be a much more useful piece of information if we got a chance to see whether the cases in question did, in fact, involve terrorism.
I mean, if nearly all 108 of them regarded rifling through the files of nut-jobs planning on poisoning the NYC water supply or shutting down nuclear plant cooling systems in California, I would take that as compelling evidence that something very much like the PATRIOT Act (with a little tweaking to improve safeguards of personal rights) is probably a Good Thing to have in place.
On the other hand, if many of the cases were simply run-of-the-mill crime suspects, and law enforcement officers used PATRIOT clauses as a work-around to unconstitutionally search their premises, I would say it's time to riot in the streets.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
When you consider that western countries enjoy a very high quality of life compared to other countries, its easy to make the argument that people live 'well enough' to not have to care about whether Foo or Bar is running the country.
From other vantage points, Kerry and Bush would basically do the same things, only with different ways of justifying it to their voter base. (Same here in Canada, etc.)
Mind you, I'm not suggesting that the system isn't currently broken; rather simply that not enough shit has hit the fan yet for people to be forced into caring.
Its the old adage where you don't really care why your neighbours are being arrested until they come for you. Same principle. Enough people are enjoying worry free lives (save for the material worry we create to substitute for real worries such as where is my next meal coming from) such that we just havn't hit a critical mass of folks who think we need a substantial change.
"Old man yells at systemd"
Section 209 -- Permits the seizure of voicemail messages under a warrant.
Why was this ever enacted? Doesn't current law allow it even without the USA PATRIOT act? Isn't anything allowed to be searched and seized with a warrant? And things in storage already have a lower protection under law than things in transit (anyone know why?).
Redundant law is a bad thing.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
I recommend reading the actual sections since most of the "summaries" of the sections that I have seen are translations, usually leaning to one way or another.
Not pointing any fingers here, just recommending you read the actual text yourself. A lot of folks went ballistic over the massive new erosion of our rights when those rights were aleady in jeopardy if you were a drug dealer or traficker. They've simply extended the power they already to terrorism suspects.
Karma means nothing to me, so suck it...
For instance, "terrorism" was recently extended to include a meth lab in Virginia. Bad? sure. Terrorism? not hardly. Prosecutors will use anything available - they're forced to do so.
I forget what 8 was for.
The "Patriot" Act has more to do with Despotism than Patriotism. Powers that the Act give are more in line what dictators would want than what a so called "free and democratic" society would strive for.
With a few more Republicans in Congress since the one that created and passed the Act, who owe their offices to the Republican machine that funded and organized their campaigns, why should they change any of the Act that they all like so much?
Yep, those Republicans are definitely to blame for this one. Those Democrats fought tooth and nail to prevent it from being passed.
Isn't it possible that the Democrats generally oppose the Patriot Act today, and the Republicans generally support it today, because they're playing the political game and trying to drum up support from the far-extreme parts of their parties, rather than examining the law to see whether the provision really is a good or a bad idea?
Let's be honest- Every day, in local papers around the US- there are letters talking about what "my friend the soldier says."
I prefer primary sources- Also- On the ground? Does that mean he is never in a helicopter or vehicle, but always directly on the ground? That is one of the most obnoxious media hip phrases out there.
Here is a tip- when someone tells you they were in the service, just ask what their MOS was. A lot will give you name, but then ask for the number (and some have letters too)... liars won't know.
How does a hearsay comment, likely made up, get modded as a 5?
To add my voice to all the others...
I have never served, but I as a defense contractor, I work with the Army all the time.
Without exception, they have been among the most clueful, intelligent, and thoughtful people that I have ever met.
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
You clearly never served....
A,there are tons of smart people in the military...
B, there are soldiers getting shot at every day, not foxhole to foxhole, but many times you will have mortars hitting near you all day.
C, Have you ever seen any of the acronyns we are forced to use?
D, I am tired of all these experts who have never served. My neighbor has pro war stickers all over his truck- he talks all the time about how great it is what we do... And how he never served (he is 20 something) but he would go if "he had to." I just have to shake my head.... If what you know about Iraq and war ingereral and the military in general comes from the media and bad movies, then what you know is wrong... Until you serve, please don't tell us about soldiers vocabulary. You clearly subscribe to the Michael Moore School of thought that says soldiers are idiots, and the lowest class. Michael Moore is a fat loser. I have even heard some DIs yell some huge words....
You're kidding yourself. What do you think would happen to any senator that attempted a filibuster right after 9/11 over a bill that's supposed to protect americans?
If law enforcement had really stopped 108 nefarious terrorist plots, you can be sure we would be hearing about it nonstop. Because that's the surest way for the government to silence its critics - point out the threat. In reality, they've had to invent fictitious threats, like Iraq's WMD.
But you're still missing the key point here - even if all 108 cases were suspected terrorists nutjobs, that still can't justify unconstitutional searches, because they're just suspected. There's nothing to stop you from becoming a "suspected" terrorist too.
Liberty cannot survive in a system where there are two classes of people: normal people with rights, and terrorists. Rights exist specifically to protect people accused to heinous things.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." - Lord Acton
I mean, if nearly all 108 of them regarded rifling through the files of nut-jobs planning on poisoning the NYC water supply or shutting down nuclear plant cooling systems in California, I would take that as compelling evidence that something very much like the PATRIOT Act (with a little tweaking to improve safeguards of personal rights) is probably a Good Thing to have in place.
.whom I've slept with."
.nothing.
There are a few relevant questions here.
First off, it isn't enough to know that all 108 were nutjobs. What was the relevance of the PATRIOT Act to their survielence? The answer might well be none, in which case the act only serves to remove civil liberties from the innocent while adding nothing to the legitimate investigation of criminal activity.
Another, and more troublesome question is, how do you know they were actually nutjobs if there has been no judicial review, no legal representation, no finding of fact and no trial? No public record whatsoever.
"Did all of these people turn out to be nutjobs?"
"Ummmm, Yeah, they did. That's the ticket. Just ask my wife, Morgan Fairchild. .
Is this not the very problem with secret "law enforcement" activity?
Remember that law enforcement itself is even responsible for defining what "suspicion" and "terrorist" activity are. Afghanistan makes heroin. You are "suspected" of selling heroin. Therefore you are suspected of being a terrorist.
See how easy it is?
And the last question is, what if the 109th person isn't a nutjob at all, it's you, what will you say?
And the answer to that is. .
KFG
I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. -- James Madison
The history of liberty is a history of limitations of government power, not the increase of it. -- Woodrow Wilson
The true danger is when liberty is nibbled away, for expedience, and by parts. -- Edmund Burke
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. --- Benjamin Franklin
Yes, these quotes are repeated constantly... but they need to be.
Developers: We can use your help.
On august 6th 2001 PDB( Presidential Daily Breefing) With the heading of 'Bin Laden determined to attack inside United States.'
What does the president do?
Well nothing.
A month before 9/11 Moussaoui (Supposed 20th hijacker) is arrested by the FBI on immigration charges but was drawn to the attention of FBI when he wanted to learn to fly 747's on the flight simmulators.
What does the FBI do?
Well nothing because Counterterrorism officials at F.B.I. headquarters were aware of Mr. Moussaoui's case, partly because they had evaluated and rejected requests by agents in Minnesota to examine Mr. Moussaoui's computer. Law enforcement officials said FBI counterterrorism analysts discussed the case in at least two secure conference calls that included their counterparts at the CIA. They also consulted with the NSA, which eavesdrops on communications around the world.
Well based on these two points alone one could say see thats why we need Patriot Act, to protect us from future atacks!
Well if you look deeper into these one can also say that even with out Patriot Act We knew enough and FBI Director Could have authorized the search of his computer. Which in turn would have shed more light on 9/11.
And Maybe Just Maybe Prevented it from happening!
But could it be, that perhaps with preasure from above(the white house) They did not want to prevent 9/11 for they were the ones that planed the whole thing where they can in turn achive what Communist Stallinist had all along from days after the WWII and that is a Police State and total control over us, the slaves of the Ruling Elite.
Those that think no way man you are full of shit our gov. is here to protect us!!!
I tell you this look look into how the Vietnam war got started.
Look into The Operation Northwood documents
And tell me if Democrats or Republicans are the right choice for the USA.
Now I am not an expert on the politcs and netiher is any of us geeks on /. but from reading http://www.wsws.org/ I have come to terms that both Democrats and Republicans (The Ruling Elite) is thinking only of their big bussiness intrests and not for us the slaves of the system which was after all was built on our backs.
Jefferson once said that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
But Vigilance is dead.
If you criticize, you are labeled as a deviate, or automatically induced into a two-of system for classification. Either liberal, or conservative. But I'm a humanitarian, who belives in peace, and cooperation, and doing no harm.
Where's my politician? Where is my free country? And most of all, where are my brothers and sisters? The problem is peaceful people are usually peaceful because they're more intelligent. And we've yet to begin intellectual discrimination. But fact of the matter is if people with no brains weren't allowed to vote, we wouldn't be run by tyrants who believe in enforcing policy through the use of an iron fist. Fuck Bush and all reptiles who believe in him. Yeah yeah, mod me down for believing that intelligent people solve problems without the use of force. You're so used to slashing resistance that any deviate will cause your reptile brain to summon all the feelings of inadequacy that being lost in a human world is all about.
If you are going to bring Hitler into it, at least know your facts. The Patriot act has zero in common with the Enabling Act which basically allowed Hitler to pass laws directly just by signing something without the Reichstag.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
If your client is a terrorist with fanatical followers who are willing to die to kill his enemies, and you violate a judge's gag order to say that your client wouldn't mind if some of his friends blew some people up?
Do you think mob bosses pass along concrete orders to their hitmen? No, they say "You know, I wouldn't be too upset if Jimmy the Squealer took a bullet to the head." To say that Lynne Stewart shouldn't have realized that people could possibly be killed because of what she said is ludicrous.
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.
Must be much worse than 25%. You're more at risk from the average criminal while walking around in Washington DC than you are from enemy gunshots in Iraq. Though I admit I don't know how many friendly shootings there are.