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OpenOffice 2.0 Criticized on Use of Java
karvind writes "Yahoo is running a story on how OpenOffice 2.0 Faces Opposition over Its Use of Java. According the article: "The problem, according to some free software voices, is that OO.o relies too much on Sun Microsystems Inc.'s proprietary Java programming language in an open-source project. In particular, free software advocates are objecting to the use of Sun specific Java code for such OO.o 2.0 features as the new, Microsoft Access-like database management program, Base and Writer's (OO.o's word processor) document wizards." Linus Torvalds also moved to an open-source solution for software configuration management system."
It's here, it's (basically) free. Why not use it?
Also, who is Linus Trolvalds?
Hey ASSHOLES, the current Java source code can be downloaded here, and the latest development version can be downloaded here. And if that's not enough for you, your precious Kaffe, gcj, GNU Classpath, and other "Open Source" projects are working on reimplementing the JVM. I don't particularly care if you like Java or not, but I've had enough of this bullshit about Java being open or not. It's a God damn language/platform with thousands of successful Open Source projects under it, and has been opened up six ways to sunday. Comparing the issue to Linus's predicament is disingenuous at best, is not outright dishonest!
Not to mention that OpenOffice is Sun's baby. They PAID MONEY FOR IT. (I know that's a foreign concept here, since the entire fraking world is supposed to be FREE for the fraking taking.) If you don't like the direction OpenOffice has taken, then go play with KOffice. Oh wait, you alreay pissed them off too. Is there anyone you people won't make an enemy of in your Quixotic quests of stupidity?
Apologies for the abrasiveness of this post, but crap like this deserves it. You've been given a gift and all you can do is look it in the mouth.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Its a programming language... As long as the code is open source, then why not use it?
At a future point in time, there could very well be complete open source java implementations. But even if there aren't, the code is still open source.
You can mod your friends, you can mod your nose, but you can't mod your friend's nose.
Let's try and keep this discussion focused on Sun, Java, and OO.org, but not the Bitkeeper flamewar, mmmkay?
If someone could explain how this relates to OO.o's use of Java, I'd appreciate it :P Otherwise I'll just assume the submitter is trying to be a little more sensational about things.
Java works, and works well. However, I can see the point about OpenOffice being totally *free.* However, Since OpenOffice is essentially StarOffice, which, if I am not mistaken, comes from SUN, why not use it?
I'm not a troll, but I play one on Slashdot.
The objections seem to be emanating from rms.
While some OO.o supporters claim that the opposition is primarily the result of misinformed free-software zealots, Microsoft, or astroturfing (the use of paid shills to create the impression of a popular movement) by OO.o opponents, there does seem to be some concrete opposition to OO.o by the free software community.
The most visible evidence of that is that the FSF (Free Software Foundation) is "is looking for volunteers to maintain a version of OpenOffice that doesn't require a non-free Java platform."
Volunteers to lead this project are requested to contact the FSF's founder, Richard M. Stallman
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
Stupid, stupid, stupid...Free Software people will keep grumbling as long as we aren't building everything from a completely "Free as in Free-as-long-as-you-play-by-OUR-rules" standpoint. And what the hell is that about Linus, he rolled his own solution because he needed to do more than any of the available FOSS solutions could, but what bearing that has on OOo is beyond me....
This is nonsense, there are some reasons, most highly contentious, not to rely heavily on Java but this argument isn't one of them...
Idiots!
Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree. -Martin Luther
Sun buys StarOffice, and spins up a free version of it for the "community." They decide to use some of their own technology (Java) in this program. So what?
Sun controls OpenOffice/StarOffice, and Sun controls Java. Both have been opened more than your typical commercial holding. What's the problem?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
well, assuming that Java _does_ run everywhere, which of course, we know it doesn't. Or doesn't run _well_... like on HP-UX.
But anyway...
What better language should they pick? VB? csh? Perl? Python? Mono? Java has relatively point-n-click installers for many popular OSes, has a remarkable amount of functionality, and will smooth their development wrinkles because of its universality. Remember, this is a desktop app, it needs to largely 'just work' from an installation perspective, you don't want Joe Windows User going to ActiveState and getting some Perl package, or needing some cygwin-esque environment to run Python or something else.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
--- You are in a little twisty maze of comments, all different.
All I know is that OO keeps getting better and faster, that it isn't costly like MS office, doesn't have a closed file format like MS office and that it has cross-platform versions. Sounds like the right stuff to me.
Believe it or not, but OO2 relying so heavily on Java is a problem, as Java is not free software.
Now all the name calling that is currently going on here will not change this simple fact and all this "I don't give a f*** as long as it works" won't change the fact that java not being free software poses a problem.
Look for example at Debian, or Fedora, or Ubuntu, they all ship without Java because of licensing problems. Having one of the most important apps for desktop linux rely heavily on Java sure poses a problem for these distributions and their users.
That said, I get the feeling that something good will eventually come off this situation, as said distributions (and especiall RedHat) are now working even harder on providing a true free Java environment and make OO2 run with it.
As someone who prefers free software and someone who runs linux on non-x86 (ppc, therefor no current Java + firefox plugin available) I can only welcome this development.
Maybe they think that OOo 2.0 will get released too soon and would prefer to wait a few years for the developers to port, and test the code.
There's HypersonicSQL, that would have to be removed from its dev team, forked, and ported to a non java language. Then all of the code that uses it. I'm sure there's lots of other stuff.
So, we could add a year or more to the release and get the exact same features with the same performance, the same license (OOo license), and more bugs.
Yes, we could wait and get nothing except binaries that were made from source that was written in a language that has a different license.
Or maybe the crybabies, who think this is such a big deal, could take the open source java source code and port it too some other language (C#?) of their choosing and thank the original developers for devoting their time. I notice that Richard Stallman is calling for volunteers instead of just doing it. Typical.
Bill Gates has got to love this. The open source community builds a product to compete against his products. Then instead of unifying to make the project better, they split up to make a competing copy of the competing product. And this is over a language that there are open source tools to deal with.
Or, we could all give a word of thanks to the developers who dedicated so much time so that we all may benefit. Even MSOffice users will benefit as MS improves their product and lowers their prices to cope with new competition.
----- If communism is a system where the government owns business, what do you call a system where business owns govern
Since all responses so far have been very reasonable ("if you think it is a problem, do your own version then and don't bash Sun"), I predict the trolls will try to change the discussion to "I hate Java and it sucks compared to my favourite language X", or "Java vs Mono", with inflammatory posts.
Don't take the bait.
Being bitter is drinking poison and hoping someone else will die
We need the ability to moderate the articles themselves. Myself, I'd give the article a -1, Redundant (covered before, as you mention), -1, Troll (for trying to get people unnecessarily spun up), and -1, Flamebait (for name dropping Linus in a conversation that has nothing to do with him).
Rule #1 -- Politics always trumps technology.
-- from the article --
Still others have suggested that instead of using an open-source Java, these components be rewritten in an entirely different language such as Ruby or Python.
However, some programmers have just gone ahead and found fixes for OO.o, which enables it to run with GCJ.
Caolán McNamara, a programmer with Red Hat who specializes in word processing, has created one such set of fixes.
A source at Sun said, "OO.o 2 works OK with GCJ" and that "Red Hat has been tremendously helpful in the effort to make that so, filing bug reports etc."
In addition, while OO.o will run without a JVM (Java Virtual Machine), it will use one if it's available, and its performance has been found to be much better if Sun's 5.0 JVM is used.
But, as Scott Carr, OO.o's quality assurance project co-lead pointed out, "OO.o will run perfectly well without any JVM, but if there is a JVM then it has to do checks to make sure what features are supported in the JVM as well as run various functions. These are only run in the presence of a JVM."
-- end FTA --
So... if there is a JVM, [something] runs better/faster than if there wasn't. For starters, the app works without Java. Secondly, it's been fixed to compile with an open-source Java compiler. Thirdly, what kind of code runs this way? The article didn't specify.
How odd.
Regardless, this is still a big deal about nothing, as per usual.
-Rob
Marriage doesn't have to suck!
I'd use Python. Java is slow too, slower in practice since it makes much less use of native code. Why is the user base a problem? I've always found the standard library very well documented and have yet to have a consistency problem, but if those problems are there it's probably because the library is a lot bigger than in most languages, you'd normally end up getting external libraries to do the same thing which would, in all probability, be inconsistent with the standard library and underdocumented.
I am trolling
Hé des ABRUTIS, le code source courant de Java peuvent être téléchargés ici [ sun.com ], et la dernière version de développement peut être téléchargée ici [ java.net ]. Et si ce n'est pas assez pour vous, votre Kaffe précieux [ kaffe.org ], gcj [ gnu.org ], GNU Classpath [ gnu.org ], et d'autres projets "de source ouverte" travaillent à reimplementing le JVM. Je ne m'inquiète pas en particulier si vous aimez Java ou pas, mais j'ai eu assez de cette connerie au sujet de Java étant ouvert ou pas. C'est un rien language/platform de Dieu avec des milliers de projets ouverts réussis de source sous lui, et a été ouvert six manières au dimanche. Comparer l'issue à la situation fâcheuse de Linus est insincère au mieux, n'est pas malhonnête pure! Pour ne pas mentionner qu'OpenOffice est le bébé du soleil. Ils ONT PAYÉ L'CArgent LUI. (je sais qui est un concept étranger ici, puisque le monde fraking entier est censé être LIBRE pour la prise fraking.) Si vous n'aimez pas la direction OpenOffice a pris, alors va jeu avec KOffice. Attente d'Oh, vous alreay pissé leur au loin aussi. Y a-t-il n'importe qui que vous peuplez ne ferez pas un ennemi de à vos recherches de Quixotic de stupidité? Les excuses pour l'abrasif de ce poteau, mais le crap comme ceci le méritent. Vous avez été donnés un cadeau et tout que vous pouvez faire doit le regarder dans la bouche.
Not Java. Fork Open Office. Write the whole thing in Lisp if you wish. If yours is the better deal, the world will beat a path to your door.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
my issue with java is not so much java/opensource/gpl..., but rather speed/memory/footprint.
Open office is already huge and somewhat slow. Java will only make this worse.
I remember when Mozilla was feature rich (kitchen sink), slow and huge. I stuck with old Netscape4 until Phoenix/Firebird/Firefox came fixed the Mozilla problems.
After OO2 is released, probably someone will fork it, replacing all the java, and call it FireOffice, then OpenOffice will adopt the changes.
2. RTFA, the major problem is that they're using undocumented sun-only features, almost as if they're deliberately breaking it on Kaffe etc.
Since everyone has access to the OO sources, nothing can stop Kaffe, Apache J2SE, GNU Classpath or any other project to implement these "proprietary" features, as they are called from the source code.
It is most unlikely that sun would actually take legal action for the "unauthorised" use of these non-standard API extensions required for OO support, since they would then really be making dicks of themselves.
"Oooh, does that mean we get to kick some puffy white mad zionist butt?"
So, if I'm running RedHat, which started building its own JVM, OOo won't run properly.
I don't see anywhere in the article that indicates they're using undocumented internal com.sun.* classes. The problem seems to be that some key functionality in OpenOffice is implemented with Java, and that Java itself is not free. Also, it adds a requirement that any platform that runs OpenOffice must have a compatible implementation on Java.
That also means that, if OpenOffice is coded to the Java spec (which it should be), then they shouldn't feel responsible for making the code run with Kaffe, GCJ, Harmony, or any other non-spec Java environment.
On the other hand, if they coded it to spec, then OO shouldn't preclude the use of a different Java environment. If Kaffe, etc. were up to spec, it wouldn't be an issue. (I have no problems with these implementation, they all admit to various places where they don't fully implement the Java spec).
This is a purely political/religious/philosphical issue, not a technical one. The objection to Java is because Java itself isn't free, not that OpenOffice is tied to a particular implementation of Java.
Why does slashdot insist on posting such obvious trolls? This whole article and slashdot story should be modded -99 TROLL! The submitter obviously was hoping to start a flame war with the OSS free-software *coughstallmancough* zealots and the people who know better currently have the highest modded posts on this forum. There is no Java trap. As long as Java's source lays out in the open people will implement their own JVMs and compilers and the world will move on. If Sun goes down the drain then well, I guess by gosh those OSS zealots that are whining need to get their act together to implement all of those open sourced "hidden features."
.Net has a long ways to catch up. Can't we find better things to argue over? That Java is even open sourced says multitudes about the effect of Free Software.
With the world all going to hell, you'd think that people could find better things to argue about. Java is obviously a well used toolbox in the open source and to say that it will have negative consequences is truly sad. Why do people use Java even though people bitch and moan about how slow and slow it is and how it lacks certain primitives (and it does), it is because it just works on nearly any operating system. When you only want to devote the time to develop for one platform, but at the same time allow just about anyone with a computer to run your code, what are you going to use?
Azureus, Slimserver's MP3 player, a bunch of emulators, and a whole slew of other projects that can be found on Sourceforge, amongst other places, were all built on Java.
Who knows, Java may live up to its promises as a platform for embedded devices one day. Given how many Universities teach Java right from the start and how many teachers are right now telling people that Java is likely to be the next big language, I wouldn't exactly say that Java is going anywhere anytime soon. Microsoft is now wishing they had come up with a similar idea and
Next troll/story please!
zosxavius photography
C++ because we all know that more buffer overflows and random craziness is what OpenOffice needs to compete with Microsoft Office?
Given that such a huge page of OOo is already written in C++, adding a bit of Java into the mix doesn't make much of a difference in terms of reliability.
It does make a difference in terms of introducing a dependency on a 50M install and a proprietary runtime that exists on only a limited range of platforms.
So seriously, of all of the major language choices, which would be better?
C++ plus a scripting language. C++ is and will always be primarily a C++-based implementation.
I do agree that getting rid of C++ would be nice, but adding a few percent of Java code to OOo is not going to accomplish that.
Python which is slow, has a much smaller user base and far less consistent and well-documented standard library?
Python's not that slow to begin with, and there are a number of things you can do to speed it up (e.g. Psyco).
I also take issue with the smaller user base - firstly, why is that a big deal, and secondly, are you sure it's true? Python's been around longer and has big names using it like Google too.
Lastly, have you ever actually used Python? Even if the rest of what you say is true, it is more than compensated for by the fact that you are way more productive in Python than Java. 50 line programs get cut down to 5 line programs. You don't have to bother writing things like getFoo() and setFoo() most of the time.
As long as whoever is complaining takes the necessary steps to provide a different solution I guess they have a right to speak up their minds. Of course they should understand that the Open Office developers are still FREE to do as they wish.
diegoT
What you and many others fail to understand is that Java the trademark might be owned by Sun, but Java the language LONG AGO went into the hands of the community - namly the Java Community Process. Java is really controlled by a LOT of companies now including IBM. Do you think IBM is really going to care if Sun withdraws into a shell? They would move forward with Java regardless, and they have a whole VM to back up such an action.
Java already has a community. It's up to Sun to try and mesh the two communities but if you just pretend Java = Sun then you will never understand the results of anything that happens, as the reality is far more complex.
Personally I'd like to see the focus be on catching up GCJ with the standards, and having a first-class Open Source Free VM. Then this whole debate is moot.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
If GCJ could be improved to the point that it supports the newer Java specs well, and OO can use it as a base - then this whole issue goes away.
So you can try to convince a company to change policy, a group of developers to take a whole different approach to the project that would delay things by a year, or simply FIX THE PROBLEM. It used to be that people actually wanted to fix problems instead of bitching for the sake of it.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Python which is slow, has a much smaller user base and far less consistent and well-documented standard library?
Python which is not all that slow next to Java, is nowhere near as big a resource hog as Java, is completely Free, and is a standard part of most distros already.
Besides, just haw fast does a document wizard or access like interface need to be? It'll spend most of it's time waiting for user input anyway.
As it stands, I'd rather skip the wizards and access to avoid the dependancy on Java. Does anyone know if there's a proper config option for that or is it a hack and slash? If the latter, I* guess bI won't be upgrading for a good while.
The JVM is a specification that may be implemented on different platforms as people are so inclined.
"Opening Java" will do nothing to address the problem of missing JVMs directly because the fundamental issue is one of demand. If you really need a JVM for your favorite toy OS, then start a project to build one.
So anyone who does not go 100% his way has to be undermined, even if thier motives are not hostile. So sun decides that being nicer with thier code will be profitable in the long run. What do they get? The RMS torch and pitchfork gang telling them what functions they can use or else!
Ok, so the idea that people should be free to deal with software in the manner in which they choose is a cool idea. What about the idea that someone should be free to deal with the product of thier labor (be it, widgets or prose or code) in the way that they choose? In the RMS "all or nothing model" the two are incompatible, anything I create belongs to the world and not to me. My mind must be the source of free labor, to keep any ideas to myself would violate what RMS claims as his rights.Who gets to decide how I distribute what I work to create, me or Stallman? The two claimed "rights" are in conflict.
It seems a lot of progress has been made in getting commericial interests to consider and sometimes even participate in open source. But it doesn't help when supposed leaders of the community insist on ralling behind a worldview that is incompatible with commercial software existing at all.Free Mac Mini Yeah, it's
Python vs Java Python starts up faster and uses less memory. It is also more portable.
The example I like of how Sun does not really control Java anymore is generics. If Sun could do what it liked we would have had generics in 1.4, but there was wrangling and so it was delayed.
Does Sun get members on all the major comittes? Yes. They have a certain degree of guranteed participation. But that does not equal control, as one member cannot overrule a whole panel.
Basically there are a lot of big, powerful players around Java now and all of them have a say. Java hs the most "real" standards body I've seen because I as an individual can see a lot more of what is going on and even have some influence if I care deeply about a JSR.
For better or for worse Java really is steered by a lot of people now, whcih means it's not as nimble but also means better stability for the platform.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The Pentiums OO.o runs on is also patented, and obscured by trade secrets - not to mention circuitry too tiny to examine without sophisticated equipment. Until Pentium microcode is OSS, we must not use it.
--
make install -not war
No, you're the one who needs to get a grip.
Free Software isn't about taking down Microsoft and other big corporations. I don't use FreeBSD because I want to "stick it to the man." Free software is about being able to use software unencumbered by licensing restrictions. And what do you mean that nerds have no vision? Richard Stallman, Linus Torvalds, the BSD developers, and hundreds of other nerds have the vision of creating completely free software for everyone. Yes, we still have some things to work on (like that Swedish thesaurus and spell checker that you mentioned), but it's getting there.
Nobody in the "real world" (boy I hate that phrase; I'll change it to "non-geek world") cares about Debian and Fedora shipping Java because the non-geek world uses Mac OS X and Windows. The last thing on the average Mac user's or Windows user's mind is the licensing of Java; it either comes with their computer or it is a quick download away. But Linux and BSD users are in a different realm, the "surreal world" as you probably call it, and they aren't generally going to put up with the licensing. Besides, Sun Java isn't available for many platforms. What if I'm using NetBSD on an Alpha machine? Too bad, I can't use Sun Java even if I wanted to.
The point is, free software isn't about "sticking it to the man." It is about using unencumbered software. If you have a problem with this, you can always return to your Mac or Windows box, along with your Java. Nobody's stopping you from using that, and nobody's stopping geeks like myself from forking OpenOffice.
The source of a language isn't the compiler's code, it's the language specification.
If a language's structure is openly defined, then anyone can build a compiler for it. That *IS* the definition of an open-source compiler!
If OO.o doesn't work well with GCJ because the compiler fails to fully (and efficiently) implement the language standard, the it's the fault of the compiler, not the language.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban