OpenBSD Hackathon Approaching

BsdFreakZoid writes "OpenBSD developers from all over the world get together once a year at their annual 'hackathon'. This year's hackathon is about to start with around 60 developers, taking place in Calgary, Alberta in Canada from May 21st through May 28th. KernelTrap has spoken with a number of OpenBSD developers about this year's and past hackathons. OpenBSD creator Theo de Raadt is quoted saying, "a few hackathons ago we had a slogan of 'shut up and hack', this is because hackathons are not conferences. People don't come to chit-chat, but to do what projects do. Some other projects hold discussion meetings, I would call those talkathons. We don't discuss, we do." Past OpenBSD hackathons have seen the introduction of SMP support, support for the amd64 architecture, and many other significant advances. What big advance will come out of the 2005 hackathon is yet to be seen."

Comments

Suvivor: Calgary

[Anonymous Coward]

"we have a barbecue at Theo's at the beginning of the hackathon, to get to know the new people." [...] "we go out for food or coffee in small groups."

...and at the end of the day they vote someone off the island.

Re:Suvivor: Calgary

[shis-ka-bob]

This is a meeting of BSD Gurus in Calgary. You get voted off the mountaintop.

Re:Suvivor: Calgary

[DrEldarion]

Oh? I wasn't aware that Calgary was an island nowadays. ;)

Re:Suvivor: Calgary

[Anonymous Coward]

More like you get voted out of the urban sprawl.

Too bad tidal waves couldn't get that far inland and get rid of the blight on the landscape which is Calgary.

Re:Suvivor: Calgary

[bluGill]

It isn't, it however located on an island. Most commonly the island is called "America", and it is generally divided into two parts: "North America", and "South America".

Re:Suvivor: Calgary

[Pollardito]

that part of the event is apparently called the Eatathon, it's followed closely by the Stand-In-Line -for-the-Restroomathon

Re:Suvivor: Calgary

[Shanep]

It isn't, it however located on an island. Most commonly the island is called "America", and it is generally divided into two parts: "North America", and "South America".

I was tought at school, that an island, is an expanse of land surrounded by water which contains no more than one country. If it does contain more than one country, then it is a continent and not considered an island.

Australia is the largest island in the World by this definition. However since it is so large, it is considered to be a continent itself and so Greenland gets the title of Worlds largest island. North and South America are continents.

I will always think of my island home (Australia) as being an island though.

Re:Suvivor: Calgary

[Shanep]

I will always think of my island home (Australia) as being an island though.

In addition to this, I consider the change from Australia being an island, to being a continent to be wrong. The powers that be were wrong to do that and the World was wrong to accept it.

An island implies isolation. Australia is the largest country to be completely isolated by water and thus it is an island.

PS, with George W Bush at the helm of the USA, I feel a large part of North America is quickly becoming incontinent. ie, it is randomly and uncontrollably shitting and pissing on the rest of the World.

Re:Suvivor: Calgary

[grimdonkey]

Not quite true. You may want to check out this island which contains exactly 2 countries.

Re:Suvivor: Calgary

[bluGill]

Is Pluto a planet? There are larger asteroids that have more 'normal' orbits. Is Australia a continent? How about Antarctica (which doesn't contain any countries)? What about tiny land masses with two countries.

Everyone has an intuitive definition of Continent and island. Those definitions ALL fail somewhere.

Re:Suvivor: Calgary

[ArbitraryConstant]

*looks out window*

We're in the mountains?

*squints*

Well, I can see some mountains. They look pretty far away though.

No discussion?

[Bender_]

I have no idea about this, but I presume that the aim of meeting to code is meant to improve cooperation, right? Is this a pure "Extreme programming" session, or will there be some planning? Otherwhise it sounds like fun.

Re:No discussion?

[Arbin]

Perhaps if you read the article, this snippet might have answered your question:

"normally, we have to sit down and write a long explanation email in order to communicate, and people are in different timezones, so the feedback is often less than fast. Being able to go directly up to somebody and perhaps even work together on a task in real-time, is a big plus."

....

"The reduction in distance and time augments the dialog between developers working in related areas, and some new projects can even spontaneously emerge on their own."

As always, RTFA

Re:No discussion?

[molnarcs]

Have your read the article? ;) That's one of the questions it answers very clearly:

I was curious to understand more about what happens at the OpenBSD hackathons, and if there is a goal or focus behind each one. Henning Brauer laughed and explained, "there is no focus for the hackathons. I mean, get real, you can't work on a single thing with over 50 (over 60 this time) developers." Peter Valchev added, "there is no specific focus for any of the events, everyone gets together and works on whatever they want to. Really it all works out by itself, because the developers know what's important to work on - it's not something they need to be told."

This is a really nice interview - and shows that openbsd is a nicely managed distribution... I mean there is a strong sense of community among their developers, and social events like these serve to enchance that sense. This was funny:

Bob Beck, who is responsible for making the barbecue happen, notes, "the barbeque has become sort of a tradition, We host it at Theo's house, normally with whatever meat I've managed to bag the previous hunting season. Normally it's moose and/or deer marinated kebabs with raisin rice pilaf. The recipe is recorded for posterity in any openbsd distribution in /usr/share/games/recipes, in hackathon proportions."

Re:No discussion?

[part_of_you]

No, it's because when 2 people get together, they have more of a tendancy to talk/brag about what they have done. This makes it hard to get things done in a timely manner.

Re:No discussion?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anybody know what port contains the recipe?

Re:No discussion?

[Bloke down the pub]

In Soviet Russia, recipe contains port!!! But only if they can't find any vodka.

Re:No discussion?

[dadragon]

Er.. the grandparent sais that it's in any openbsd installation, in /usr/share/games.

Re:No discussion?

[eric76]

/usr/share/games/fortune/recipes

Hackathon Moose (or other Ex-Magnificent-Forest-Creature) Barbecue

30 cups oil
15 cups Soy sauce
5 cups Worcestershire Sauce
40 tsp dry mustard
20 tsp black pepper
10 cups lemon juice
10 cups white vinegar
80 cloves crushed garlic

about 75 pounds of boneless meat (moose, deer, elk, beef - try chicken
too). For reference this is roughly an entire large dressed (Alberta
size) whitetail deer, with some moose and beef thrown in for good
measure. I've never tried finding enough chickens for a hackathon.

Mix all of the above together, and marinate meat for a few hours
before grilling. dribble marinade over meat while grilling. Also
works well with vegetables on the grill, or meat and vegetable
kebabs. The above proportions will require about 50 bell peppers and
25 large onions to make decent kebabs (for a large family meal, divide
everything by about 20, and leave out the drunk Germans providing the
ambience while you grill)
%
Hackathon Raisin Rice

10 cups rice
5 Onions, chopped fine
10 cloves garlic, crushed
Butter
2.5 cups raisins
2.5 tsp oregano
22 cups water
40 chicken bouillon cubes (or equivalent - you want to make double
strength chicken stock - chicken-in-a-mug
works well made double strength).

Saute Rice, onion and garlic in a little butter until slightly brown.
I manage this in the (large) pot(s) necessary by throwing together
the onion, garlic, and butter to brown up, then faking it a bit with
the dry rice thrown in while threatening kitchen interlopers with
sharp instruments if they come in to ask how it's going.
Dissolve bouillon in water, add along with remaining ingredients.
Cook until rice is done. (for more intimate proportions, divide down
to an appropriate amount of rice for your occasion).

Re:No discussion?

[Anonymous Coward]

I myself prefer a freshly slaughtered and dressed young human. Once you remove the head, entrails, hands and feet, the rest of the flesh of a human child is actually quite sweet and delicate. If you live in Calgary, you can get children easily from the local indian reserve if you know who to ask. I recommend females, because they are cheaper and the meat is usually of higher quality.

Re:No discussion?

[Shanep]

openbsd is a nicely managed distribution

OpenBSD is not a "distribution" if you are using the term as it would be used with respect to Linux "distributions". Linux distro's package other peoples software and tailor it, whereas BSD developers "take ownership" of all the software that falls under their releases and maintain it all as a whole.

This might sound like a minor difference, however use a bunch of Linux distros and then use OpenBSD and you might, like I and many others have, notice the very clean and integrated system which results. Linux distros always seem rough around the edges by comparison. Even the likes of SuSE or Debian.

No offence intended however to the Linux camp. Their work is highly admirable and their acheivements impressive. I just notice this distinction as being due to the fundamental mindset of responsibility extending to all parts of BSD systems versus the responsibility of tailoring the packaging of distinct components.

OpenBSD, stands out to me by far, as the cleanest system. I don't feel I can use the word "integrated" with OpenBSD because the whole is so complete that it feels as if there was nothing to integrate to begin with. As if the system were created completely from the ground up with a lot of foresight to do things correctly.

Re:No discussion?

[Anonymous Coward]

This might sound like a minor difference, however use a bunch of Linux distros and then use OpenBSD and you might, like I and many others have, notice the very clean and integrated system which results. Linux distros always seem rough around the edges by comparison. Even the likes of SuSE or Debian.

I disagree. Debian especially is very focussed on quality, and each package having a very good ratio of maintainers.

The free BSDs are almost as distro-like as something like Debian, in that they write and maintain a small core set of software, and then package, test, and include 3rd party (free) software with changes to config management and packaging to fit their system, and often a few of their own changes to the code.

With this basic idea, there is no difference between Linux distros and BSDs.

When you get to specifics, BSDs include their own kernel and libc, while Linuxes include the Linux kernel and glibc. There is still a great deal of 3rd party code used in BSDs needed to even *build* the system, let alone have any functionality.

What's more, most Debian people who package eg. the kernel are actually kernel developers as well who work on the upstream kernel. So it's not like a huge difference there.

So no offence to you or the OpenBSD camp, but your percieved differences in the "fundamental mindset of responsibility" probably don't really apply to a Linux like Debian.

As for "cleanliness" or "intergrated", I'm not really aware of any accepted objective definition so in that case I'm sure you do feel that OpenBSD is the cleanest, but I think other people would have valid arguments why it isn't (BTW. what do you mean by cleanliness?)

Re:No discussion?

[Shanep]

(BTW. what do you mean by cleanliness?)

File structure efficiently laid out without extraneous crap. Man pages succinct and complete. Default configuration files with comments specific for OpenBSD. man "any filename" usually brings up a man page for that file.

I disagree. Debian especially is very focussed on quality, and each package having a very good ratio of maintainers.

I agree that Debian is focused on quality. I used it for years (Potato) while also using OpenBSD. Debian is certainly the cleanest of the Linux distros I have used. But I did not find it to be as clean as OpenBSD.

The free BSDs are almost as distro-like as something like Debian, in that they write and maintain a small core set of software, and then package, test, and include 3rd party (free) software with changes to config management and packaging to fit their system, and often a few of their own changes to the code.

I don't agree with this, with regard to OpenBSD. All the software installed with the default install, is permanently maintained by OpenBSD developers. Including such software as Apache. When improvements to Apache are made outside of OpenBSD, the OpenBSD developers review changes and back port them into the OpenBSD Apache if they are deemed worthy (I realise Debian back ports).

Contrast this to Linux distros which bolt Apache on as it is with config changes to suit their distro.

As far as 3rd party software goes, yes they have packages of 3rd party software which remains largely unchanged. However there is a point where they have to stop. They can't maintain and develop everything in-house. But as far as the OS goes, (kernel, libraries, file structure, man pages, installer, boot loader, Apache, OpenSSH, X, ftpd, ntpd, etc etc) they do and they do it all as a whole. A lot of work goes into the packages though and they usually ship with almost ALL of them working without any problems.

With this basic idea, there is no difference between Linux distros and BSDs.

All of the software installed in a default install of OpenBSD, is maintained by OpenBSD developers as a tightly knit group. There is a huge difference between that and Linux where developers of various software work together largely independantly of the other groups and then communicate when it comes time to tie it all together, but not necessarily cooperate. Consider that those various groups also don't always agree and go their own way with some fundamental aspects. I see Linux distros and BSD development as being very different and to me it shows when I use them.

Have you spent much time in various Linux distros and BSD's?

There is still a great deal of 3rd party code used in BSDs needed to even *build* the system, let alone have any functionality.

The point with BSD, is that when external code comes in, it is maintained from that point internally. That code does not keep getting imported each time it changes externally just because that happens. This avoids problems being crept in. It only gets imported if deemed worthy. New code does not very often get imported anyway and when it does, external changes are usually re-implemented rather than being imported as is. This is what I am refering to when I say, "take ownership".

What's more, most Debian people who package eg. the kernel are actually kernel developers as well who work on the upstream kernel. So it's not like a huge difference there.

I would not doubt this. However, in OpenBSD, the developers don't just maintain the kernel and libraries, they maintain all of the software that gets installed by default. They even maintain and modify gcc and X. As far as the kernel goes, it is specifically developed for OpenBSD as a whole, not a much larger community outside of OpenBSD. They can focus on their system as a whole when developing their kernel as a result of this. Not take into consideration every other user outside of their system. This all makes for an absolutely

Re:No discussion?

[Anonymous Coward]

File structure efficiently laid out without extraneous crap. Man pages succinct and complete. Default configuration files with comments specific for OpenBSD. man "any filename" usually brings up a man page for that file.

Well. Then you make a *really* big (and subjective) claim that OpenBSD is the cleanest. I guess it is just your gut feeling so I won't press you for any research / statistics.

I don't agree with this, with regard to OpenBSD. All the software installed with the default install, is permanently maintained by OpenBSD developers. Including such software as Apache.

Not it is not maintained, it is called packaged. That they might have a few patches of their own isn't at all unusual - even if they are leet security fixes.

Contrast this to Linux distros which bolt Apache on as it is with config changes to suit their distro.

"Bolt Apache on" isn't very descriptive. That could be applied to the OpenBSD process too.

As far as 3rd party software goes, yes they have packages of 3rd party software which remains largely unchanged. However there is a point where they have to stop. They can't maintain and develop everything in-house. But as far as the OS goes, (kernel, libraries, file structure, man pages, installer, boot loader, Apache, OpenSSH, X, ftpd, ntpd, etc etc)

Sorry, no. OpenBSD does not maintain X, they do not maintain Apache. That is an insulting and slighting to the developers who do maintain those packages.

they do and they do it all as a whole. A lot of work goes into the packages though and they usually ship with almost ALL of them working without any problems.

Linux distros also put a lot of work into packaging and testing things as a whole.

All of the software installed in a default install of OpenBSD, is maintained by OpenBSD developers as a tightly knit group. [...]

Nope.

The point with BSD, is that when external code comes in, it is maintained from that point internally. That code does not keep getting imported each time it changes externally just because that happens. This avoids problems being crept in. It only gets imported if deemed worthy.

This is exactly how all Linux distros that I know of work (maybe with the exception of Gentoo but I don't have any experience with that).

New code does not very often get imported anyway and when it does, external changes are usually re-implemented rather than being imported as is.

No they aren't.

I would not doubt this. However, in OpenBSD, the developers don't just maintain the kernel and libraries, they maintain all of the software that gets installed by default. [...]

No they don't.

No I beleive they do apply, however Debian is not the best Linux distro to illustrate my points. I used it because it is indeed the closest to BSD that I have used.

Well there are plenty of crap, half assed BSD "distros" around too. Doesn't mean I say BSD is crap.

With OpenBSD, the whole system, as delivered, is maintained and developed. [...]

Not quite.

Re:No discussion?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope. No they aren't. No they don't. Not quite.

Wow, how could anyone stand up against such impressive reasoning and argument?

Re:No discussion?

[Anonymous Coward]

The argument was given to refute the first time the assumption was put forward. These just follow logically.

The type of person to try to stand up to such resoning and arguments would definitely at least have to have an elementry grasp of the English language, and would have also had to have actually read the arguments in the first place.

Have a nice day, troll.

Re:No discussion?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not it is not maintained, it is called packaged. That they might have a few patches of their own isn't at all unusual - even if they are leet security fixes.

Are you kidding? The diff between vanilla apache and OpenBSD's version is in the order of tens of thousands of lines. It's a fork, not a couple of trivial patches like you want to make it appear. I assume the rest of your post is uninformed as that gem.

Re:No discussion?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, no. OpenBSD does not maintain X, they do not maintain Apache. That is an insulting and slighting to the developers who do maintain those packages.

They maintain Apache. The Apache developers insulted and slighted the community by becoming non-free.

Re:No discussion?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe Apache. Depends whether they still pull from upstream of have become the highest point in the stream. I don't follow it closely enough to know.

X? I don't think so. gcc? No.

Re:No discussion?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you kidding? The diff between vanilla apache and OpenBSD's version is in the order of tens of thousands of lines. It's a fork, not a couple of trivial patches like you want to make it appear.

Maybe their apache package has some substantial changes, so perhaps it is a fork. That's nothing like all the base software. X? gcc? I don't think so.

I assume the rest of your post is uninformed as that gem.

Oh that's too bad you couldn't refute any of my other points. Still, you did a really good job in singling out and attacking a less significant part of my argument.

Re:No discussion?

[Shanep]

I don't follow it closely enough to know.

It shows. As does your arrogance. I've been using OpenBSD for 6 years and Linux for 8 years. I have been following OpenBSD very closely.

X? I don't think so. gcc? No.

Such strong statements for someone who does not follow it closely enough.

Xfree forked.

x11 - Houses OpenBSD's adaptation of the XFree86-3 software project. xf4 - Houses OpenBSD's adaptation of the XFree86-4 software project.

gcc is worked on within OpenBSD's source tree and part of their work enabled an mvme88k port.

A few choice quotes from here.

FB: Another license war has started and it seems worse than before. Does OpenBSD really want to fork XFree starting from the last 4.4.0-RC2?
ME: Yes.

And I'm one of the guys who works on gcc and binutils on a continuing basis.

Anil took it one step further and introduced an extension attribute to gcc: bounded, that can tie two function parameters, so that you can say, "Here is the buffer and the corresponding size, try to check that it fits."

With a few small changes to gcc, and with declaring that read is such a function, gcc is now able to detect erroneous code, such as:

ME: ProPolice is a gcc extension developed by Hiroaki Etoh, from IBM, based on older concepts such as StackGuard. ProPolice makes several advances compared to StackGuard:

Hiroaki is also an OpenBSD developer, by the way.

Integrating ProPolice in OpenBSD has been hard work. ProPolice has found tons of bugs in various programs that shipped with the system. It's also been the first real-scale test of ProPolice itself. With a lot of hard work from Hiroaki Etoh and Miod Vallat (and Peter Valchev and Christian Weisgerber...). ProPolice itself modifies gcc a wee little bit. But, like most programs of its size, gcc itself is buggy, partly due to its gigantic design that is not quite sane in places. In a typical release of gcc, you don't see the bugs, because the corresponding code paths are never taken. Add ProPolice, and suddenly you're sending gcc through some dark venues that have seen less attention, and all of a sudden you are fixing actual, genuine bugs in gcc.

Not it is not maintained, it is called packaged. That they might have a few patches of their own isn't at all unusual - even if they are leet security fixes.

They have made major changes to Apache and as evidenced here and here, they forked it and are taking care of their own branch. Much as they have done for years before the Apache license change. Bundling some software up into a package might be what some Linux distros do, but not OpenBSD with Apache.

"Bolt Apache on" isn't very descriptive. That could be applied to the OpenBSD process too.

There is no way it can be applied to OpenBSD. They have made major changes over the years to the Apache they provide.

Sorry, no. OpenBSD does not maintain X, they do not maintain Apache. That is an insulting and slighting to the developers who do maintain those packages.

I was not saying OpenBSD developers maintain THE xfree and Apache code bases. It should have been obvious from my English that I was referring to the xfree and Apache which they release as part of their base OS. Thier changes do make it back to parent projects though from time to time.

Linux distros

Re:No discussion?

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at the date on that. They use xorg. It couldn't have been a serious fork of xfree86, because that project alone is probably larger than their entire codebase they develop (note, not "package").

And that's great some OpenBSD developers do a little work on gcc. In no stretch does that mean openbsd maintains their own gcc fork.

Apache - yeah OK they may have made quite significant changes here. I guess you can call it forked now I think they no longer pull from upstream (or do they?).

And finally, the main thing I take exception to is your statement:

"The point with BSD, is that when external code comes in, it is maintained from that point internally. That code does not keep getting imported each time it changes externally just because that happens. This avoids problems being crept in. It only gets imported if deemed worthy. New code does not very often get imported anyway and when it does, external changes are usually re-implemented rather than being imported as is. This is what I am refering to when I say, "take ownership"."

This strongly implies that they don't generally pull from upstream, and they do maintain their own forks. This is plain hogwash.

Re:No discussion?

[ArbitraryConstant]

"I disagree. Debian especially is very focussed on quality, and each package having a very good ratio of maintainers."

I use Debian-testing as a desktop system, I agree with your statement, but Debian has plenty of its own problems. For example, the stable release schedule is pretty tragic.

Conversely, 3.7 is the first OpenBSD release in years that broke the 6-month cycle, and it's less than 3 weeks late. It's been years since there was a Debian-stable release, and after the new one is released Real Soon Now there's no reason to believe the subsequent one will be relased any sooner.

"The free BSDs are almost as distro-like as something like Debian, in that they write and maintain a small core set of software, and then package, test, and include 3rd party (free) software with changes to config management and packaging to fit their system, and often a few of their own changes to the code."

That's not correct. Most of the OpenBSD userspace is maintained directly by the OpenBSD team. They have ports to make it convenient to install 3rd party software, but the base system is mostly privately maintained software.

Re:big development for this year ...

[Anonymous Coward]

especially after his stunt at bsdcan

Details?

Donations

[almeida]

If you like OpenBSD or OpenSSH, now might be a good time to donate a little bit to the project. Donations help pay for stuff like this hackathon. Considering buying a CD, t-shirt, or just giving some cash. This can be done at the orders page. They also accept hardware donations.

Re:Donations

[myspys]

I tried donating some hardware (only some U160 SCSI disks, but nevertheless). I emailed the coordinator for my country at that time (Sweden), no reply.

And as far as I can remember (although, don't take my word for it!), I emailed Theo as well. No reply, although that's more understandable ;)

Re:Donations

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, donate!

Re:Donations

[Dr. Smeegee]

That is unusual! I donated a couple of things (a 3com card with onboard encryption and a broadcast card) and was always answered promptly. Keep trying! These guys love getting new toys!

Re:Donations

[Anonymous Coward]

Their old hardware is better than my new hardware!

Re:big development for this year ...

[Uruk]

i'm moving everything away from freebsd

Wait...lemme get this straight.

Now, admittedly, I'm ignorant of who PHK is, or what exactly this person has done to annoy you.

But you're going to switch operating systems because of a single person? A troll, even?

I didn't realize that trolls had gotten that powerful. Perhaps there is some magical property to hot grits that I had not realized.

Shut up and hack

[kevin_conaway]

Is there any sort of communication or direction of what features people are supposed to be hacking (working) on? Or is it everyone just shows up and develops what they feel like. As a software developer, the latter scares me a bit.

I guess you can't argue with results though.

Re:Shut up and hack

[Nimrangul]

Gaging from past hackathons, ideas are usually thrown around between developers when they arrive and come up with things they want to do, then do them while there.

It isn't that there is no talking, they do go out drinking and hiking and talk while doing so - it's just that they should have a general idea of what they want to do before they head to Calgary anyways.

They're there for seven days and are given a good chance to plan out what they're doing ahead of time, so although new ideas do pop up there, it's not like it's total chaos.

Things like the rewrite of dhcpd came out of those kinds of discussions.

Re:Shut up and hack

[Cat_Byte]

it's not like it's total chaos.

Thats it. I'm cancelling my flight.

Big development will be the adoption of PGKSRC

[Anonymous Coward]

Again, the BIG development for OpenBSD 3.8 would be a rework of the ports/package system. It will include the pkgsrc to avoid downtime due to the following recomendations:

"Before upgrading, some users choose to remove all packages, and installing new versions after upgrade. If your platform is one of those that switched to gcc3 (macppc, i386), you SHOULD probably do this.

To quickly remove all packages from your system:

pkg_delete -q /var/db/pkg/*

After the upgrade, install the new versions of these applications."

Can you imagine doing this every time you upgrade to a new version? Do that on your desktop OS every 6 months and you will understand how painful this is.

References:
http://www.pkgsrc.org/
http://openbsd.org/faq/upgrade37.html

Re:Big development will be the adoption of PGKSRC

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah, wow.
"pkg_delete * && pkg_add *"

oh no, my fingers are bleeding.

Re:Big development will be the adoption of PGKSRC

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah that is easy enough, but you are stuck if there are configuration changes among different versions. openldap and dansguardian (not in ports anyways) come to mind.

what is the dowmtime accounted for pkg_delete * && pkg_add *?

I bet that that is unacceptable for some environments!

Just a thought!

Re:Big development will be the adoption of PGKSRC

[Anonymous Coward]

ha ha.... I tried Windows.

no Thanks.

Re:big development for this year ...

[molnarcs]

Oh no, not that kind of trolling again about PHK and others. MODS????

Re:big development for this year ...

[Anonymous Coward]

obviously you don't know who phk is. as in one of the core freebsd developers. if that's what you'd count as troll, then yeah, i'd say he's pretty powerful.

great events

[guildsolutions]

These things are really good... They can show serious flaws and direct programers in the areas needed to develop.. Microsoft should take note of these and have them weekly, if not daily :-)

Re:great events

[Anonymous Coward]

Mmm ... They are not hacking in the common misconseption of the word as in trying to break into BSD systems. They are creating something new and insightful like SMP or A64x support.

Re:great events

[Anonymous Coward]

? Not sure if you're serious - this is afterall how MS does things http://www.cs.unibo.it/~cianca/wwwpages/ids/lettur e/Cusumano.pdf

Re:great events

[Anonymous Coward]

They do, they're called bug bashes. You have to stop what you're doing for the day and participate.

Re:BSD

[Hinhule]

But it will soon be.

Welcome ot Hack(andSlash)atron 2005 suckers! MWAHAHAHHA

-Bill

Re:BSD

[guildsolutions]

Considering Darwin is most likely BSD, its far from dead. Probably the basis of the most significantly well designed OS yet to hit the market for personal computing. (OS X)

Adaptec?

[Dogun]

I can't help but wonder if adaptec ever got their act together and sent the reference materials the OpenBSD guys wanted.

Anyone know what the outcome of that fiasco was?

Re:Adaptec?

[Nimrangul]

I can sum it up in three points I think:

aac was disabled, it is no longer supported by GENERIC (and thus OpenBSD).

Adaptec says they'll have their SDK out some time soon, which is still not what the OpenBSD people were asking for.

Scott Long thinks OpenBSD developers and users are a bunch of fuckers.

Re:Adaptec?

[btarval]

"Anyone know what the outcome of [the Adaptec] fiasco was?"

Yes. The hackathon after this one will be held on-site at Adaptec.

Alas, Adaptec doesn't know this yet. ;)

Re:Adaptec?

[molnarcs]

Where do you get that idea from? (I'm referring to Scott Long's opinion). For one thing, Scott Long is quick to put down trolls who try to foster the myth of some kind of politics taking place between the various BSDs.

There really are very few political forces that shape things between the BSD's, whereas the amount of cooperation is actually quite strong and pleasant. Hyping up the politics myth only does a disservice to everyone.

Why do you have to do exactly the thing ScottL speaks about there?

Re:Adaptec?

[Nimrangul]

Scott's reaction to OpenBSD's call for it's users and other concerned Adaptec customers to voice their opinion about documentation is the major basis for my comment.

He said that what Theo was doing was wrong and that the closed source CLI he made was perfectly fine - that things like Theo's little crusade hurt all BSDs further hopes of companies cooperating with them.

The shouting and the threats and all the other tripe reflect poorly on everyone, whether you choose to see it or not, and _that's_ what I oppose in Theo, not his passion for openness.

--Scott Long, ex-Adaptec worker and FreeBSD developer

He thinks they're asses for following an ass - that a bunch of users who own Adaptec hardware asking that developers of an operating system they use be given documentation instead of just using some SDK that may happen in the future or using a closed couse CLI that they don't want and doesn't do everything they want.

In the end, a good quote, sourced through Rob Payne, to apply to Theo:

"I am a free prince and have as much authority to make war on the whole world as he who has a hundred sail of ships and an army of a hundred thousand men in the field. And this my conscience tells me; that there is no arguing with such sniveling puppies who allow superiors to kick them about the deck at pleasure, and pin their faith upon the pimp of a parson, a squab who neither practices nor believes what he puts upon the chuckle-headed fools he preaches to."

--Black Sam Bellamy, pirate captain of the Whydah

Re:Adaptec?

[Anonymous Coward]

"I am a free developer and have as much authority to make war on the whole world as he who has a monopoly and an army of a hundred thousand lawyers. And this my conscience tells me; that there is no arguing with such sniveling wimps that let those with power kick them about as they wish, and put their faith in the sellout whore, a man who neither practices nor believes what he tells the nuckle-brained fools he preaches to." --Theo de Raadt, pirate captain of the Open C, about Scott Long

Re:Adaptec?

[molnarcs]

I don't see in any way Scott's comment implying that OpenBSD's devs are a bunch of fuckers. Also, he seems to agree with the points Theo makes and criticizes his style - that is nowhere near to what your original post implies. Actually, I don't agree with Scott's criticism here - I don't have anything agains Theo's style in this instance, but I can see that there might be valid arguments against the way he presented his case. However, I disagree with calling names and blowing the issue out of proportions - or "hyping up the myth" of tensions between various BSD projects. There are occasional tensions, yes, but I very much doubt that ScottL thinks of Open's devs as a bunch of idiots. Implying that he does will do a great disservice to all of us.

Re:Adaptec?

[Anonymous Coward]

Scott Long thinks OpenBSD developers and users are a bunch of fuckers.

I am an OpenBSD user and I am a fucker. My girlfriend is happy for it. Many times per day. She is a fucker too, but she prefers OS X.

Re:big development for this year ...

[guildsolutions]

Isnt microsoft a troll? Practically the entire world runs microshaft... Again I say microsoft needs to hold these hacking conventions daily, maybee then they could finally release a OS with a limited number of bugs and security problems. If they did this, the major security problems would be addressed up front and without thousands of people being affected by there greed and stupidity.

Re:BSD

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a holy half-dead who's seen the underverse.

sorry, that was the worse line

Re:BSD

[dhbiker]

while Darwin may be based heavily on BSD, are they actually contributing anything back?

If not then the fact that OS X is based on it is something of a moot point

Re:big development for this year ...

[Bill Wong]

Speaking for myself, I switched to DragonFlyBSD because of one person - Matt Dillon.

I must assume it works the other way around too.

Re:BSD

[guildsolutions]

Even if they dont contribute anything back, I am sure that Apple would keep the core foundation of it alive, and not let it die. Who knows, apple may contribute back. I do not know that they dont, or do.

Calgary?

[BioCS.Nerd]

Calgary? Isn't that the strip club capitol of Canada? How do they expect geeks to hack when there's readily available naked women geeks can see for the first time? ;) In all seriousness, good luck! May your coding be swift, and may your debugger bless you.

Re:Calgary?

[Anonymous Coward]

You may want to consider Montreal. I don't much care for the place (even the smoked meat and bagels are overrated) but on that one front...

Re:Calgary?

[Anonymous Coward]

That would be St-Catherine Street in Montreal...

Re:Calgary?

[go-nix.ca]

No, Windsor, ON is the strip club capital of Canada.
More strip clubs per capita than any other city.

Re:Calgary?

[BioCS.Nerd]

Coincidentally, Windsor is also my home town. You'd think I'd know that, but then again when one of the strip clubs advertisements is, "50 Beautiful Girls, and One Ugly One", I tend to steer clear.

Milk forever!

Re:Calgary?

[Anonymous Coward]

How do they expect geeks to hack when there's readily available naked women geeks can see for the first time?

Ah, now see you are equating "geeks seeing naked women for the first time" with "BSD geeks", when in fact, the geeks who don't get laid are "linux geeks". "Geek" is the genus and "Linux/BSD" are the species. Not all geeks are loosers. Just the linux geeks.

Re:Be warned: Calgary has the worst strip bars

[SnarfQuest]

So, how much money did you lose before giving up?

Location Information?

[Erioll]

Admittedly, I didn't look REALLY hard, but I couldn't find any location information about this event on the openBSD site itself, or even linked from the article.

So for somebody that's organizing it, can you post a link to the information about the event itself? Things like locations, dates, times, etc? I live in Calgary, so hey, might check it out just for fun. But it's kind of hard to do that when you have no idea beyond "a hotel downtown".

Re:Location Information?

[chris88]

Unless you're invited, they really don't want you to come.

Re:Location Information?

[nickname_unique]

I think they don't want people there hanging around "just for fun". If you would be invited you would know the location. Apperantely you are not. Me neither ;)

Re:Location Information?

[downbad]

It's by invitation only.

Re:Location Information?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well... I'm not hackaton people want tons of outside people showing up. But, having said that, downtown calgary is not that large...

Re:Location Information?

[Anonymous Coward]

its for that reason exactly ... so little weiners like you don't show up ...

Re:Location Information?

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's a private little get together, then why do we care? Really. It's like giving a shit where Paris Hilton is getting high. We just don't give a fuck if we aren't part of the party. Theo may be involved with a somewhat more secure variant of BSD but his personal level of asshattedness pretty much tells me to stay the fuck away. He's way too much of a child in his behavior.

Re:big development for this year ...

[Fweeky]

"geom sucks anyhow"

I keep hearing this from.. certain directions, but I'm yet to see an actual explanation as to why GEOM sucks more than the ad-hoc mess it replaces. GEOM's given us better RAID support, the ability to export block devices across networks, disk encryption, better support for multiple partition formats and disk layouts, and a rational layered approach which allows for pretty much arbitary nesting of any of the above to suit whatever you want to do, not to mention a nice, well documented API for developing your own classes. Frankly I was kind of shocked to find this wasn't already the case.

So come on Mr Uid Half A. Million Eighty Six Thousand And Very Odd, earn your 30% Insightful moderation and enlighten us all.

Here's an idea

[ninja_assault_kitten]

Maybe they can hack Theos mind to support a personality.

Re:Here's an idea

[Anonymous Coward]

why would they do that when they can just suck eachothers dicks?

Re:Here's an idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they can hack Theos mind to support a personality.

Theo has lots of personality. It might be in your face, but if you can't handle someone who speaks truthfully, then go back to living in la la land and masturbating to the underwear section of the Walmart catalog.

Theo gets shit done. What the fuck does diplomacy achieve if it just gets in the way of what is right?

Re:Here's an idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Please stop jocking deraadt's nuts. He sucks as a software engineer, and he's a dick as a person.

Tickets available at TicketMaster

[ccbutler]

oof!

There will be at least ONE public discussion

[rbrander]

Theo and some of his visitors over the years have been very generous about speaking at meetings of the Calgary Unix Users Group.

This year, we cap off our best month in history, in which we have Richard M. Stallman speaking on May 18 at the University Science Theatres (seats 500). Less than a week later, Theo and the entire 50-ish turnout for the Hackathon, invited to the John Dutton Theatre of the main downtown library (seats 400), on May 24th.

The topic is PF, the packet filter; and the scheduled speaker, Ryan McBride - but the rest of the PF team will be there for question & answer. And with the entire Hackathon invited, the topic could wander a bit.

If you can make it, look for details at our web site:

http://www.cuug.ab.ca/

Roy Brander, P.Eng.
Chair, Calgary Unix Users Group

Re:There will be at least ONE public discussion

[dorfsmay]

Oh Gee Roy !!

The guy's on holiday, and not only does he read slashdot, but he takes the time to put a word in for CUUG.

Thanks Roy.

Calgary as hackathon venue

[WebCowboy]

Calgary? Isn't that the strip club capitol of Canada?

I can tell you as a native Calgarian that Calgary is far from being the strip club capitol of Canada. The reason probably has to do with the fact that active members of the OpenBSD community live here more than anything else--that and the fact Calgary is a very well-connected city (among the most-wired cities in North America and maybe the best in Canada along with maybe Ottawa and Vancouver).

A little OT but maybe interesting to some:

Although Calgary and Alberta is not nearly as red-neck/socially conservative as people outside the province often make it out to be, Calgary (and indeed all the prarie provinces) have quite a puritan heritage--for example, Alberta was led by a premier nicknamed "Bible Bill" Aberhart for many years, and in Calgary from prohibition well into the 60s men and women couldn't be in mixed company in any venue that served alcohol (in later days--1950's the city relaxed laws allowing establishments to serve alcohol to both genders in the same room during the Exhibition and Stampede).

Things have changed a lot since then, but Calgary still doesn't have that big an appetite for strip clubs considering the size of the city. If post-hacking peeler-shows is what they were after I think they would pick a venue somewhere in Quebec--it seems that province embraced more socially liberal attitudes than anywhere else in Canada, except for a few interesting exceptions (in terms of equality for women it was opposite--Alberta and the praries were ahead of the game there and Quebec was the last province in Canada with universal sufferage).

Maybe that is why Ottawa is known for it's Linux activity--it is both a high-tech city AND is closer to the stripper-action as it sits on the Ontario-Quebec border.

Re:Calgary as hackathon venue

[|<amikaze]

I'm from Saskatchewan, where you're not allowed to serve liquor and have naked women in the same building. When I went to Calgary for an IEEE trip, I have to say I was quite quite impressed by the French Maid. The atmosphere was great, the girls were great, and we all around had an awesome time.

Quiet!

[CypherXero]

"a few hackathons ago we had a slogan of 'shut up and hack', this is because hackathons are not conferences. People don't come to chit-chat, but to do what projects do. Some other projects hold discussion meetings, I would call those talkathons. We don't discuss, we do."

Alright...zip it! Zip it! Ziiiiiip! Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury...E-zip-it A When a problem comes along, you must zip it! Zip it good! Would you like a suckle on my Zipple?

Re:big development for this year ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking for myself, I switched to GoatseBSD because of one person - Matt Damon.

SMP and AMD64 support

[NetBSDality]

It's worth noting these two features were imported almost wholesale from NetBSD.

Perhaps "portathon" would be a better name. :-)

Re:SMP and AMD64 support

[LurkerXXX]

Here is a clue for you. The BSD's borrow heavily from each other. That's a good thing. Where do you think FreeBSD got pf, OpenSSH, etc?

Re:SMP and AMD64 support

[jericho4.0]

Here's a clue for you; A guy with the nick "NetBSDality", who knows where that code came from, probably is pretty familiar with how the BSDs work.

Re:SMP and AMD64 support

[LurkerXXX]

You would think so, but apparently not if he doesn't realize NetBSD takes a lot for Free and OpenBSD as well. Having a nick with an OS name in it doesn't mean he's not an idiot.

Re:SMP and AMD64 support

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you too stupid to know the Time Cube [timecube.com]? Dumbass!

Ha ha ha!

Much crazy talk reminiscient of religion, scientology or even Nazi propaganda, blah, blah, blah, etc, etc, etc... but then... © 1997-2004 - www.TimeCube.com

Ha ha! That cracks me up! There really are too many people in this World who probably should be cared for in institutions, but are not.

Re:big development for this year ...

[DashEvil]

GEOM is a FreeBSD 5.x advancement. It is therefore necessary for FreeBSD trolls (who want to make people believe that FreeBSD is going in the absolutely wrong direction) to claim that anything new in FreeBSD 5.x sucks.

Such as GEOM, which I personally find to be great.

Re:big development for this year ...

[MPHellwig]

Well count me in too, but not just because of Matt but more because of the way things went in FBSD5.
Not that this means that it 5 is bad, it's more like not my choice of doing things.

UltraSPARC III/IV support!!!

[ChaosMt]

Pretty please!!! Ya ya - I know. Sun is being stupid about releasing the details. I just have this secret fantasy about setting up a 64 cpu OBSD system on one of the SunFire 25k's I set up. Chip support is the first step. The second step is getting one of those 25ks all to myself -- so I can setup access for the developers of course!

Re:UltraSPARC III/IV support!!!

[cnettel]

Imagine a Beowulf cluster of those.

Re:UltraSPARC III/IV support!!!

[ArbitraryConstant]

OpenBSD's kernel is biglock. Works fine on systems with a limited number of CPUs, but I don't imagine it would do very well on a 64-way system.

Re:UltraSPARC III/IV support!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I just have this secret fantasy about setting up a 64 cpu OBSD system on one of the SunFire 25k's I set up.

Dude, I love OpenBSD and enjoy NetBSD and FreeBSD very much. However, seriously, if you have a 64 CPU Sun system and want to make the most of it, Solaris is your best bet. NetBSD might give Solaris a kick in the guts on a single CPU system and FreeBSD might soon give Solaris a kick in the guts on dual's and quad's. But 64 CPU's? Forget it! Partitioning those into virtual servers with something other than Sun software? Forget it!

Please mr Theo de Raadt

[Anonymous Coward]

Convince the Linux Kernel team to do exacly the same.
Tell them to do a Hackathon too...

Requiem for the FUD

[Anonymous Coward]

// Please *don't* mod this up. It has already been done! Thx

... facts are facts. ;)

FreeBSD:
FreeBSD, Stealth-Growth Open Source Project (Jun 2004)
"FreeBSD has dramatically increased its market penetration over the last year."
Nearly 2.5 Million Active Sites running FreeBSD (Jun 2004)
"[FreeBSD] has secured a strong foothold with the hosting community and continues to grow, gaining over a million hostnames and half a million active sites since July 2003."
What's New in the FreeBSD Network Stack (Sep 2004)
"FreeBSD can now route 1Mpps on a 2.8GHz Xeon whilst Linux can't do much more than 100kpps."

NetBSD:
NetBSD, for When Portability and Stability Matter (Oct 2004)
NetBSD sets Internet2 Land Speed World Record (May 2004)
NetBSD again sets Internet2 Land Speed World Record (Sep 2004)

OpenBSD:
OpenBSD Widens Its Scope (Nov 2004)
Review: OpenBSD 3.6 shows steady improvement (Nov 2004)
OpenSSH (OpenBSD subproject) has become a de facto Internet standard.

*BSD in general:
Deep study: The world's safest computing environment (Nov 2004)
"The world's safest and most secure 24/7 online computing environment - operating system plus applications - is proving to be the Open Source platform of BSD (Berkeley Software Distribution) and the Mac OS X based on Darwin."
BSD Success Stories (O'Reilly, 2004) (pdf) ~ from Onlamp BSD DevCenter
"The BSDs - FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, Darwin, and others - have earned a reputation for stability, security, performance, and ease of administration."
..and last but not least, we have the cutest mascot as well - undisputedly. ;)

--
Being able to read *other people's* source code is a nice thing, not a 'fundamental freedom'.

Re:Requiem for the FUD

[Anonymous Coward]

Sources report: nobody's listening, and nobody cares.

Re:big development for this year ...

[quantum bit]

Does that mean we'll eventually start seeing 'newbus sucks' trolls? ;-)

Re:No discussion? games or game?

[Anonymous Coward]

Shouldn't it be in /usr/share/game/recipes
since they are cooking bagged game?

No offense intended...

[Anonymous Coward]

...but somehow I strongly suspect this is an invitation only event. They probably wouldn't get much work done, if they also have to entertain scores of unknown strangers, who just want to rub shoulders with 'the pros'.

Re:big development for this year ...

[essdodson]

he's really a detriment to freebsd. i used to be a big freebsd fan, but because of the stupid bullshit he pulls every year, i'm moving everything away from freebsd (to openbsd). especially after his stunt at bsdcan

Yes, because Theo is much easier to get along with.

They're working, but they will speak in public

[dorfsmay]

As other people have pointed out it is by invitation only (they will be spending their time coding), BUT, some of them will talk for the Calgary UNIX Users Group. Check our web site for more details.

Disclaimer: I am very involved with CUUG (current President)

Re:They're working, but they will speak in public

[Erioll]

Thanks for the info. From the article, it had a slightly different "tone", so I wasn't sure.

As for the two events mentioned on the CUUG site, sounds interesting... =)

Re:They're working, but they will speak in public

[Anonymous Coward]

You may want to note .. Theo & co. do have a tendency to tip a few at the Ship & Anchor on 17th ... I wouldn't be surprised if a few of the out-of-towners make their annual appearance at some point ...

Re:big development for this year ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't have mod points today but you're a +1 funny in my heart.

Re:big development for this year ...

[DrSkwid]

all this is old hat to plan9 users, these things have been in the plan9 for 15 years

we write user level file systems that just mount into your namespace when you feel like it

want to see what's in a tar

fs/tarfs -m /n/filename filename.tar

ls /n/filename

how about a zip

fs/zipfs -m /n/azip somezip.zip && cat /n/azip/file.nfo

or

cat yesterday.tar.bz2 | bunzip2 | fs/tarfs -m /n/yesterday

diff /usr/skwid/ /n/yesterday/

and when you close that shell window they will all be gone but the tars remain

ah, such bliss

Re:Shut up and hack?!

[Telent]

Hmm.

Theo: created OpenBSD, an OS with one remote hole in the default install in seven years.

You: post on Slashdot.

Yeah, I know who's an idiot here...

Geekathons

[Doc Ruby]

That kind of dismissal of hackers talking socially is why Linux is much more popular than OpenBSD.

Re:Geekathons

[Anonymous Coward]

I suggest rewriting OpenBSD in Ruby. This will increase the conversational aspect-oriented covariant.

Re:big development for this year ...

[Nimrangul]

How is it trolling when the man went to an OpenBSD talk at BSDCan about their recent wireless work only to tell them all that what they were doing was illegal and immoral as far as he was concerned?

Reports say that despite being told that that was not how OpenBSD developers view the situation he was unwilling to shut up about it until he was eventually told off by the crowd, which wanted to ask actual questions of Reyk.

Not only that, but Paul-Henning has been comparing OpenBSD developers to terrorists. Hardly a troll, more of an astute observation of one of several disgruntled FreeBSD developers making asses of themselves. The man went there trolling.

Trolling

[Anonymous Coward]

I think I have read the same comments from you in numerous places on Undeadly. Why not stop trolling and give up donating the hardware or stop whining and email some people in OBSD to try again. . .???

Trolling Redux

[Anonymous Coward]

A link to one of your other trolling attempts???

Scott Long is a troll.

[Some Random Username]

Read the openbsd misc mailing list archives. Scott posted to websites denouncing openbsd's efforts to open up documentation for adaptec controllers because he used to work there. He also lied and said that this kind of thing doesn't help and makes openbsd look bad, despite it proving effective repeatedly in the past, and all three BSDs benefiting from it.

While there's not that much political "forces" between the BSDs, freebsd developers publicly trying to prevent openbsd developers from improving their OS, and lying about the situation is one of the few cases. See PHKs recent trolling at BSDcan for another example.

Re:Scott Long is a troll.

[liamjfoy]

Can you link me to the recent 'trolling'?

Not quite.

[Some Random Username]

The SMP support certainly borrowed from netbsd, but there's significant differences in the kernels after all these years, and its not a matter of just "importing wholesale".

Pf would have been a nice example of what's been accomplished at a hackathon, and something that both freebsd and netbsd have borrowed from openbsd. Code sharing is a good thing, quit acting like a tard.

Re:Not quite.

[Anonymous Coward]

Pf would have been a nice example of what's been accomplished at a hackathon

But was it? I was under the impression that Daniel Hartmeier did it on his own and it had since been accepted and then worked on at hackathons.

Re:Not quite.

[Anonymous Coward]

So what you are saying is that that all the features in pf where made by him? Go troll somewhere else.
Every project begins by somebody starting it.

Don't worry, the retarded mods will save you.

[Some Random Username]

It would be just awful if someone pointing out that PHK is an abnoxious troll (not just on line, in real life even) that makes freebsd developers spend more time saying "PHK is talking out his ass, he does't represent us" than coding.

Because any time someone points out something you don't like, they must be a troll, right? Good thing so many slashtards feel that way and will dutifully mod the guy down as a troll.

Not everyone is stupid though.

[Some Random Username]

See, if you have 60 developers who never talk and don't have anything in common, then your bullshit commitee attitude is required just to get anything done. But if you have 60 developers who all understand and agree with a clear set of goals, then they don't have to waste time blathering and bickering about how to do what. They can just start doing it, go "hey check this out", and have other people help.

Work on "fixing" the TCP implementation? Or PR?

[tyagiUK]

After Theo's latest public outburst on the IETF's TCP Maintenance list (http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tcpm/curren t/msg01233.html), there are a few things that could be addressed at the Hackathon.

RMS talk

[ArbitraryConstant]

What, no mention of the RMS talk on the 18th? :)

OpenSSH

[ArbitraryConstant]

Who doesn't have OpenSSH?

Re:big development for this year ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Everybody who has followed the BSD development for some time knows that both phk@ and des@ are a pair of arrogant assholes who have costed FreeBSD several talented developers. Too bad for them. These days I advocate OpenBSD for firewalls and NetBSD for anything else. FreeBSD 5.x blows, and it's party phk's fault.

Re:big development for this year ...

[molnarcs]

The question is: is your account of the events as trustworthy as your summary of ScottL's words? In your reading, ScottL called open's devs a bunch of fuckers, whereas he merely criticized Theo's style. Now I don't agree with ScottL's criticism - he should have told (I assume he didn't) of a better way of getting Adaptec to cooperate, instead of just saying that Theo's is wrong. But given your (mis)representation of ScottL's point, you don't expect me to take your word on PHK's actions on its face value, do you?

Re:big development for this year ...

[Nimrangul]

No, I said he thinks of OpenBSD users and developers as a bunch of fuckers - there is a difference.

I could call someone a whiney fucker or simply think of them as such and tell them they are an overly demanding person which needs to learn the proper form in discussions.

To me those two things are equals, though one a more crude manner of description.

Your gross overreaction over what are these days rather common words seem odd to me.

Anyways, feel free to view things as you will, I really don't mind - but do try not to dismiss one person being an ass because you don't like it when someone calls them one in language you would prefer not read.

Re:Shut up and hack?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Spoken like someone who has never contributed a line of code worth a shit.

Developer speaks out: "What Killed FreeBSD"

[Anonymous Coward]

The End of FreeBSD

[ed. note: in the following text, former FreeBSD developer Mike Smith gives his reasons for abandoning FreeBSD]

When I stood for election to the FreeBSD core team nearly two years ago, many of you will recall that it was after a long series of debates during which I maintained that too much organisation, too many rules and too much formality would be a bad thing for the project.

Today, as I read the latest discussions on the future of the FreeBSD project, I see the same problem; a few new faces and many of the old going over the same tired arguments and suggesting variations on the same worthless schemes. Frankly I'm sick of it.

FreeBSD used to be fun. It used to be about doing things the right way. It used to be something that you could sink your teeth into when the mundane chores of programming for a living got you down. It was something cool and exciting; a way to spend your spare time on an endeavour you loved that was at the same time wholesome and worthwhile.

It's not anymore. It's about bylaws and committees and reports and milestones, telling others what to do and doing what you're told. It's about who can rant the longest or shout the loudest or mislead the most people into a bloc in order to legitimise doing what they think is best. Individuals notwithstanding, the project as a whole has lost track of where it's going, and has instead become obsessed with process and mechanics.

So I'm leaving core. I don't want to feel like I should be "doing something" about a project that has lost interest in having something done for it. I don't have the energy to fight what has clearly become a losing battle; I have a life to live and a job to keep, and I won't achieve any of the goals I personally consider worthwhile if I remain obligated to care for the project.

Discussion

I'm sure that I've offended some people already; I'm sure that by the time I'm done here, I'll have offended more. If you feel a need to play to the crowd in your replies rather than make a sincere effort to address the problems I'm discussing here, please do us the courtesy of playing your politics openly.

From a technical perspective, the project faces a set of challenges that significantly outstrips our ability to deliver. Some of the resources that we need to address these challenges are tied up in the fruitless metadiscussions that have raged since we made the mistake of electing officers. Others have left in disgust, or been driven out by the culture of abuse and distraction that has grown up since then. More may well remain available to recruitment, but while the project is busy infighting our chances for successful outreach are sorely diminished.

There's no simple solution to this. For the project to move forward, one or the other of the warring philosophies must win out; either the project returns to its laid-back roots and gets on with the work, or it transforms into a super-organised engineering project and executes a brilliant plan to deliver what, ultimately, we all know we want.

Whatever path is chosen, whatever balance is struck, the choosing and the striking are the important parts. The current indecision and endless conflict are incompatible with any sort of progress.

Trying to dissect the above is far beyond the scope of any parting shot, no matter how distended. All I can really ask of you all is to let go of the minutiae for a moment and take a look at the big picture. What is the ultimate goal here? How can we get there with as little overhead as possible? How would you like to be treated by your fellow travellers?

Shouts

To the Slashdot "BSD is dying" crowd - big deal. Death is part of the cycle; take a look at your soft, pallid bodies and consider that right this very moment, parts of you are dying. See? It's not so bad.

To the bulk of the FreeBSD committerbase and the developer community at large - keep your eyes on the

Re:big development for this year ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Only from true troll who literally lived under some rock for a number of last years...

Re:Shut up and hack?!

[Vegeta99]

You don't see OpenBSD winning any awards for number of installations, do ya?

Didn't think so.

Re:Shut up and hack?!

[Nimrangul]

You don't see OpenBSD having a goal of massive market penetration, do ya?

Didn't think so.

Re:big development for this year ...

[conteXXt]

I just don't get this.

Theo is just fine to get along with.

Do and Theo not get along?

Re:big development for this year ...

[molnarcs]

Your gross overreaction over what are these days rather common words seem odd to me.

And then:

Anyways, feel free to view things as you will, I really don't mind - but do try not to dismiss one person being an ass...

Now who is overreacting? Ironically, my whole point was that you are overreacting some of the things some of the FreeBSD developers said ;)

Re:Current list of OpenBSD supported platforms

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a list for the 3.7 release.
It is an homage to Linux distros that claim they can't have 6 month-release cycles, even though they don't hack on network stack or kernel, just package stuff for userland, and don't complain when corporations insert binary drivers in the linux kernel.

You have a very warped idea of how Linux distros do QA compared with how OpenBSD works.

You also don't seem to understand the basics of enterprise software release cycles.

Also, you don't realise that many Linux developers are employed / work for the major distros (RedHat, SUSE, Debian, probably others), so yes they do "hack on the network stack or kernel".

You also are misguided with your idea of how contributions are made to the Linux kernel.

Finally, the list of supported "architectures" has a case of the NetBSD dick-size syndrome where they count up obscure platform architectures rather than processor ISAs.

For example, the Linux kernel supports the following distinct i386 platforms:
pc, elan, voyager, numaq, summit, sgi visws, es7000

The following ia64 platforms:
dig, zx1, sn2, ski, sn-sim

The following ARM platforms:
Cirrus-CL-PS7500FE
CLPS711x/EP721x-ba sed
Co-EBSA285
EBSA-110
Epxa10db
FootBridge
I ntegrator
IOP3xx-based
IXP4xx-based
IXP2400/280 0-based
LinkUp-L7200
PXA2xx-based
RiscPC
SA110 0-based
Samsung S3C2410
Shark
Sharp LH7A40X
TI OMAP
Versatile
IMX
Hynix-HMS720x-based

etc etc.

The reason they aren't counted as "ports" is because they usually consist of little more than bootstrapping code, low level chipset and bus bringup and configuration, and maybe a platform specific driver or two.

lame

[Anonymous Coward]

The words nobody cares come to mind.

Who cares about BSD anyway ? It's a humorless, dull OS, that lacks performance and is difficult to use for administrators.

Only the true sad bastards would even consider using it, I guess most people install it just to brag, and then rarely boot it.

Re:big development for this year ...

[Nimrangul]

And mine here was that you are viewing the word fucker in a different way than I am, you think of it as something more significant than jackass or git.

It's no overreaction on my part, I assure you, Scott was making a royal cock of himself on the mailing lists and forums (OSNews) talking about how wrong OpenBSD was and how this was ruining it for everyone else.

You were instantly dismissing points made because you don't appear to like potty language.

Re:Shut up and hack?!

[Telent]

You don't see OpenBSD winning any awards for number of installations, do ya?

That's about as good a rebuttal as saying, "You don't see Telent winning any awards for cow tipping, do ya?"

Excellence in cow tipping has never been my goal in life. Market penetration has never been OpenBSD's.

(I'll even be nice and not suggest that you'd be qualified to judge a cow-tipping contest, though it pains me sorely.)

Not really.

[Some Random Username]

It was real life trolling, not online trolling that is linkable. PHK went to BSDCan, and during an openbsd presentation on their wireless card support, started trying to claim they are doing something illegal by using reverse engineered code in their free drivers, and saying they should be happy with binary only freebsd drivers.

Here's a link to Theo forwarding PHKs email about trolling at BSDCan to the openbsd list though:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=openbsd-misc&m=111 619770429208&w=2

Re:Not really.

[liamjfoy]

I was just curious, cheers.

Here's another idea

[EnderWiggin99]

Ask the GP if he voted for GWB last 'election.' That might just quiet him.

Re:BSD

[ninboy]

they don't have to, thats the whole difference about BSD

Re:BSD

[ArbitraryConstant]

" while Darwin may be based heavily on BSD, are they actually contributing anything back?"

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

KHTML is huge, and the Apple changes are huge. They've simply forked the Safari version from the KDE version because there's too many changes happening too quickly to keep the two in sync. Their contributions back are in a form that is largely useless to KDE (a big blob, with no way to tell what a change fixes and no way to tell what it depends on).

OTOH, they submit reasonable patches back to FreeBSD, as their changes are relatively small, and are generally in response to specific bugs rather than large changes in functionality. In these situations, a patch that is accepted upstream is one more patch that you don't have to maintain yourself, so even though the BSD license doesn't force them to release the code they do it anyway.

Re:Shut up and hack?!

[ArbitraryConstant]

"You don't see OpenBSD winning any awards for number of installations, do ya?"

OpenBSD, no. It's a niche OS. It doesn't surprise me that firewall machines are outnumbered by other machines. That doesn't say anything about the quality of OpenBSD code.

The fact that PF (written at a hackathon) has displaced IPF and IPFW as the BSD firewall of choice speaks to the quality of OpenBSD code.

The fact that OpenSSH is by far the dominant SSH implementation speaks to the quality of OpenBSD code. 90% of all SSH servers are OpenSSH, and a good chunk of the rest are re-branded OpenSSH servers.

Re:Shut up and hack?!

[Vegeta99]

You would be correct about PF and OpenSSH. I use FreeBSD on my desktop. (but not here. Stuck with WinXP.)

But PF and OpenSSH were /started/ at a hackathon and are now open projects and open for much discussion. My point in my original post was not taken in the right way. I meant to say that if Theo wants everyone to just code and not discuss their methods, then he'll end up with a million different implementations of something each with its own set of problems.

I do, however, retract most of my statement. OpenBSD IS a niche OS, and won't be winning any awards for user penetration. The hackathons DO start good projects, too, but that's all they will do, start them. If the community isn't involved, these projects will not be as good as they could be.

Re:Shut up and hack?!

[ArbitraryConstant]

"But PF and OpenSSH were /started/ at a hackathon and are now open projects and open for much discussion. My point in my original post was not taken in the right way. I meant to say that if Theo wants everyone to just code and not discuss their methods, then he'll end up with a million different implementations of something each with its own set of problems."

As I understand it, they've already worked out how things are going to go well before anyone steps on a plane. They've done most of the design work.

As I interpret the "shut up and hack" quote, they mean by the time everyone arrives in Calgary it's time to implement what they've discussed, not rehash design decisions that have been talked to death.

Re:Shut up and hack?!

[Vegeta99]

Then I stand corrected.

I read the quote and fired off, didn't RTFA. Must've been a bad day at work...