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Supreme Court Allows Direct Shipment of Wine

jrrl writes "For a while now, ordering wine (of the alcoholic variety, not the almost 0.9 variety) online has been a somewhat dicey proposition in some states. But today, the Supreme Court overturned state laws that disallowed direct shipment of wine from out of state. Their reasoning is that the states' 'authority to regulate the sale of alcohol within their borders' under the 21st Amendment does not supersede 'the Constitution's ban on state discrimination against interstate commerce.' States could still disallow all direct shipments, but at least they have to be evenhanded now."

80 of 448 comments (clear)

  1. Yeah, yeah, yeah... by Chordonblue · · Score: 5, Funny

    Anyone else glance at the title and think: What the hell would a state have to do with non-emulation?

    --
    "...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
    1. Re:Yeah, yeah, yeah... by ZosX · · Score: 5, Funny

      Didn't you get the memo?

      WINE == Wine Is Not an Emulator.

    2. Re:Yeah, yeah, yeah... by darkonc · · Score: 4, Funny
      What the hell would a state have to do with non-emulation?

      Yeah, It took a few seconds to realize 'they're talking about wetware here, not software.'

      --
      Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
    3. Re:Yeah, yeah, yeah... by onemorechip · · Score: 2, Informative
      Correction: Wine is not an instruction-set emulator. It does, however, emulate Windows system calls. That's why it's also called Windows Emulator.

      The Wine developers and fanbase have downplayed the use of "Windows Emulator" in favor of what is now the more common acronym expansion, to avoid confusion by those who think the use of the word "emulator" is confined to CPU emulators. It isn't true, however.

      --
      But, I wanted socialized health insurance!
    4. Re:Yeah, yeah, yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Most societies (even unimportant ones, like Australia) take more than 5 years to collapse, so don't relax, yet.

  2. Commerce Clause by geomon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The rationale for getting rid of this holdover from alcohol prohibition is the Commerce Clause and the discriminatory application of the laws. It is about time that the government allows me to make adult decisions for myself.

    Michigan isn't satisfied and is proposing banning all over-the-net wine orders on the flimsy reasoning that kids will be able to buy booze without government control.

    When you have a weak argument, tell them you are legislating "to save the children".

    --
    "Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
    1. Re:Commerce Clause by drmerope · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually the result of this ruling is that states must ban all--regardless of origin--direct to consumer sales if they block them at all.

      The supreme court merely ruled that states could not treat intra-state state sales differently from out of state sales.

      The ruling preserves state control over this issue as long as the policy doesn't discriminate against out of state sellers.

      see: http://www.professorbainbridge.com/2005/05/supreme _court_s.html

    2. Re:Commerce Clause by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 5, Informative
      I'm not sure you've understood the ruling. There is indeed a "holdover from alcohol prohibition" written into the amendment that repealed it that allows States to regulate the sale and "importation" of alcohol, and that right of the States hasn't been repealed here. (Nor does the Supreme Court have the power to render one part of the Constitution "unconstitutional". Well, there's one case where it does, but this isn't it.) What the Supremes did here was to interpret the Commerce Clause to forbid States from regulating imported alcohol (from out-of-State) any differently than they do locally produced alcohol.

      It's fundamental to the way the US economic system was set up that the States are prohibited from acting in a protective manner over their industries with regard to other States. You can't charge a tarriff, for example, when you import cars into California from Detroit. What a State can do is regulate the way something is sold within its borders. It seems to me Section 2 of the 21st Amendment was put there to overcome objections from those States that wanted to remain dry after Prohibition was repealed for everyone else. I think the Supremes are holding them to this. States are still allowed to prohibit mail-order booze -- but they must prohibit all of it, not allow it from in-state producers and not those from out-of-state. Many of these laws (IIRC) were frankly written to protect local wine producers. That ain't allowed.

      I agree that Michigan's desired ban seems silly. But if that's what they want, they can have it. The idea that people have the right and responsibility to mostly regulate their own local affairs as they see fit is basic to our federal system. That's why we have a federal government and not a national government. (It's been acting more like the latter than the former lately. That's no reason to wish it could when we want it to -- to, say, force Michigan to allow Internet wine sales -- and similtaneously wish it wouldn't when we don't -- in, for example, the way some "homeland security" issues are being handled.)

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    3. Re:Commerce Clause by chihowa · · Score: 4, Funny
      Posting anonymously since I do a lot of business with WSWA types.

      Ahhh, but we were one step ahead of you. We've completed the trace and the leg breaking is on its way. That'll teach you to post comments on Slashdot disparaging the WSWA. Bwahahahahaha

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    4. Re:Commerce Clause by Deadstick · · Score: 4, Interesting
      It has nothing to do with making decisions for you, and everything to do with collecting money. California has loads of small wineries that market their goods online. If you're a distributor in, say, Ohio, you could distribute their product, but for the small number of cases they ship, it wouldn't be worth the effort -- it's much more efficient to distribute wine that comes in trainloads. But every case the indies ship to Ohio is a case you don't sell -- so it's in your interest to stop those cases at the Indiana line. And it's in the state's interest too, because liquor taxes are big and it's difficult to collect them on online sales.

      There's an analogous situation here in Colorado: you can't buy a bottle of liquor on Sunday. The state isn't banning it to save your soul; you're welcome to drink your way to perdition in a bar. The reason? Sunday closing is much more harmful to total by-the-drink sales than it is to total package sales, and business overhead is substantially higher for a 7-day store than for a 6-day store. So bars stay open on Sunday, liquor stores close, and they're both happy. Every attempt to repeal the Sunday-closing law is shot down by the liquor business.

      Same deal on cars, by the way...you can't buy a car on Sunday, and John Elway Toyota wouldn't have it any other way.

      rj

    5. Re:Commerce Clause by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Actually there is quite a bit that can be done against a rogue court, it just requires a bit of testicular fortitude. The Supreme Court has no enforcement arm whatsoever, and relies completely on voluntary compliance with its orders. If an order is so out of line that it obviously shouldn't be obeyed, and enough people agree to ignore it, it can be ignored.

      This has been done before -- but I think the last time was by Andrew Jackson. It worked out OK for him. His face is still worth $20, after all.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    6. Re:Commerce Clause by Skjellifetti · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Supreme Court has no enforcement arm whatsoever, and relies completely on voluntary compliance with its orders.

      The Court can fine the bejesus out of you if you don't comply. I vaguely remember that the Judge who decreed that Nixon had to hand over the Watergate tapes was asked what he would do if Nixon refused. The judge replied that he would fine him enough to essentially bankrupt him.

      Not sure why the courts didn't do that in the Jackson case. Maybe because the case involved the State of Georgia stealing land from the Cherokee and nobody, including the courts, really cared.

    7. Re:Commerce Clause by meadowsp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Shouldn't it be up to the businessman rather than the government as to when he can open his shop? That seems a lot more free and market orientated than what you're saying happens in colorado.

  3. The Geek/Wine Interface Is Now Complete by ScentCone · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Actually, if you live in Maryland (or many of the other impacted states), this is a long overdue, worthy development. I'm just waiting for the state to cut its own nose off, and ban the shipment of wine including that of the (marginal) local wineries.

    Never the less, I expect that those of us that build e-commerce web sites will have a few hundred brand new - if slightly tipsy - customers. With the patchwork shipping problem gone, many of the smaller operations will now consider it worth getting into the game. Thank you, Supreme Court, for doing the right thing on this. Cheers!

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    1. Re:The Geek/Wine Interface Is Now Complete by dzoey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It shouldn't effect Maryland much at all. Maryland is already pretty evenhanded about distribution of wine. You can't have wine shipped to you from in or out of state already. Shipments within a county are not mail order, but delivery.

      Maryland (including Mont. County) can continue to set up whatever restrictions on wine sales it desires as long as it applies to all wine evenly.

      --
      -- Everything is wonderful until you know something about it.
  4. Lets Drink! Opps. Sorry, was that your SISTER? by Saeed+al-Sahaf · · Score: 3, Interesting
    In Oregon, where I come from, this is great news that wine drinkers will understand. This is a big win for QUALITY small wine makers, but really will not make that much difference to the E and G crowd.

    But consider this: It is a big loss for "states rights", because it says that states have no right to control interstate commerce that passes through their borders.

    --
    "Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
    1. Re:Lets Drink! Opps. Sorry, was that your SISTER? by John+Seminal · · Score: 5, Insightful
      But consider this: It is a big loss for "states rights", because it says that states have no right to control interstate commerce that passes through their borders.

      States never, ever had the right to regulate interstate commerce. That power is reserved for congress.

      The reason why is when we had the Articles of Confederation, every state regulated commerce, and it was a clusterfuck. It was like dealing with foriegn nations, all with their own tarrifs and trade policies.

      This law has nothing to do with state rights, because it was never a state rights issue.

      --

      Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."

    2. Re:Lets Drink! Opps. Sorry, was that your SISTER? by geomon · · Score: 2, Informative

      But consider this: It is a big loss for "states rights", because it says that states have no right to control interstate commerce that passes through their borders.

      The states can still regulate the sale of alcohol within their borders.

      They are just prohibited from applying the law in a manner that is discriminatory to out-of-state vendors.

      --
      "Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
    3. Re:Lets Drink! Opps. Sorry, was that your SISTER? by Seumas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't get why it even matters. I mean, why should wine be any different than computer equipment, condoms, flowers or pepperidge farms gift baskets? Why should any of them be restricted (or for that matter, why shouldn't ALL of them be restricted).

    4. Re:Lets Drink! Opps. Sorry, was that your SISTER? by ScentCone · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I don't get why it even matters. I mean, why should wine be any different than computer equipment, condoms, flowers or pepperidge farms gift baskets? Why should any of them be restricted (or for that matter, why shouldn't ALL of them be restricted).

      It doesn't matter, and that's the point that the Supreme Court just hammered home. The real essence of this is that a state can do a lot of things to regulate what (and how) things can be sold in their state, but they can't do so in a way that discriminates against people in other states (people, in this case, being winemakers selling across the border). So, you can let everyone sell wine, or no one. But the patchwork of crazy regulations was definately restricting commerce in an asymmetrical (and unconstitutional) way.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    5. Re:Lets Drink! Opps. Sorry, was that your SISTER? by Phocas · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Because, unlike the other products you list, the Constitution specifically granted the states the power to regulate alcohol sales as part of the amendment that repealed prohibition. Hence the Supreme Court had to decide if this superceded the Commerce Clause that reserves to Congress the power to regulate interstate commerce. The Supreme Court said it didn't, which means states (on this issue at least) have to treat alcohol like other products, i.e. no discrimination against out of state producers.

    6. Re:Lets Drink! Opps. Sorry, was that your SISTER? by keytoe · · Score: 2

      And I can only hope that this continues to include beer as well.

      The stigma of 'shitty American beer' could be brought low in short order if people had access to some of the fine brews coming out of Washington and Oregon. Some of the best spirits come from small, passionate producers, and eliminating the mass distribution requirement only encourages good product. We've got some of the best hops and brewers in the world around here, and nobody but the locals know it.

      Oh shit, I've said too much. Don't come here - it sucks.

      /me opens Terminal Gravity IPA and laughs at the Budweiser fools

  5. So what? by poopdeville · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm not trying to troll here, I just don't see how this is nerdy, relevant, or important at all. Sure, this is good for interstate commerce, but the federal government has had a strong record of opening that up anyway. All I can see happening because of this is teen lushes in Pennsylvania getting wasted on Napa Valley wine without their parents knowing.

    Please, if you're more insightful than me, explain what the "broader" issue is.

    --
    After all, I am strangely colored.
    1. Re:So what? by SB5 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Teen lushes in Pennsylvania have no trouble finding liquor or beer. They did a survey or something to find out where kids got their alcohol, most of it came from parents or friends. Which just goes to show that parents or friends approve of kids of certain ages drinking. And frankly kids usually don't even like wine, and you can get alcohol shipped via mail.

      My Dad's friend actually had 2 cases of wine sent to my Aunt's house while we were on vacation there because it was easier and cheaper since you couldn't get it from the state store, even by ordering it.

      The law only seems to affect larger orders, unlike what kids order, kids don't go and order 12 bottles of wine. And if they want one bottle of wine, they could buy it off e-bay or some crap. Shipping 1 bottle is not a real problem because who would want to complain about one bottle being shipped, its like stopping someone for going just 1 mph over the amount a police officer can stop you at, its being a dick and a nitpick.

      --
      If what you are reading sounds funny, or sarcastic, lame, or stupid
      it is because it is supposed to be. just laugh
    2. Re:So what? by sugar+and+acid · · Score: 2, Informative

      No actually what it says is that Pennsylvania can't stop delivery of wine from californian distributers or wineries if it lets pennsylvanian distributers or wineries deliver wine. Pennsylvania can outright ban all home delivery of wine, local or from across the country but it can't favor local wine merchants and producers. They can "protect the children" that way if they wish to legislate it.

      Now why is it on slashdot? I guess one of the editors likes wine.

      I like it because it provides the opportunity to get small volume wines easily from the US and around the world. US wines direct from the winery, and imported wines from small importing and distribution businesses that now don't need large distribution networks to reach the whole nation.

    3. Re:So what? by xlv · · Score: 4, Insightful

      but what I want to know is why would people buy wine over the internet?
      Let's see: you've been on a trip to Napa Valley and went to a small vineyard there and bought a few bottles of a wine you enjoyed. Now back home, you'd like to get more of the same wine but can't find it at a retailer locally.

      BTW, I don't really understand your comments: does the coffee taste the same everywhere (Mc Donalds, local Mom&Pop, Starbucks)? Is a burger from McDonalds the same as a burger from a fancy restaurant? I agree that some places are overrated but quality is something you have to pay for (not overpay though...)

    4. Re:So what? by Urox · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Most people I know who are wine geeks are also food geeks: they are very palate oriented, love trying new tastes and new combinations. And wine is just another vector of exploration.

      Starbucks is crap. Most coffee drinkers will agree on that they burn their beans. I wouldn't say music is easily comparable in good or bad for one genre or another.

      Wine: there are some really crap wines out there. The only people who drink them are drinking it to get drunk. I didn't drink wine regularly until two years ago because I valued my brain cells over the poor quality of wines that I came across. I still don't like dry wines. But give me a nice ice wine or port and I'm quite happy. In fact, I spent last year's vacation in Portugal to explore ports. There are many things which make up a wine which aren't even present in the cheap crap: fruitiness (whether it tastes like bing cherries or apricots or pear even), acid, tannin, and how these are balanced. A lot of wines I try out are a little too high in acid to be drunk alone, but apply that acid to a pairing with cheese and it's the perfect compliment.

      But back to your question of why would people buy wine over the internet: because their favorite wine is X miles away and they don't want to travel for it. There are really good wines that are sold a three hours drive away from me and I buy them over the internet because shipping is cheaper than the gas it would cost me to get up there and back. There are wines 400 miles away from me and in a different state and it would be great if I could get that specific wine that I like over the internet rather than have to travel there or order through a wine club with a heavy mark up.

      And good wine isn't necessarily expensive either. I've found incredible ice wines at $20 where the average price goes for $60.

      Life's too short for crap wine, killing brain cells with crap wine, and periods of time you don't remember because you were drunk off your ass (and excuses to act that way in the first place).

      I'd have to know your niche to be able to make a comparison to explain. I'd say it is why a particular distro of linux is favored more than others.. and why all distros of linux are above and beyond your vending machine windows box.

      Dong ma?

      --
      "Would you rather have a playstation addicted dork wearing a star wars t-shirt?"
  6. Wheres Elliot? by stimpleton · · Score: 3, Funny

    Is there a thriving business driving wooden barrells of wine over state borders in the USA? With the old trucks, and stetson hats and tommy guns?

    Does the book keeper come along too?

    OK, so my visualisation is a little close to the rediculous, but where I come from, nuclear weapons might get you in trouble.

    But a bottle of 1986 Shiraz?

    --

    In post Patriot Act America, the library books scan you.
  7. Wow that caught me off guard by CSMastermind · · Score: 3, Funny

    I was so expecting to see an article about a Windows Emulator...I'm offically a hopeless nerd. Heh anyway...

    My parents own a bar in Ohio. You know you'd be surprised the amount of laws there still are about these kind of things. I'm happy to see that these steps are being taken but really it makes one wonder about the state of interstate commerce.

  8. Get it right, it is the constitution by John+Seminal · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Their reasoning is that the states' 'authority to regulate the sale of alcohol within their borders' under the 21st Amendment does not supersede 'the Constitution's ban on state discrimination against interstate commerce

    That is plain wrong.

    The constitution grants congress the power to regulate interstate commerce.

    A law regulating internet sale of alcohol will originate in congress. They might give some of the regulatory rights to states. Then it would be legal.

    --

    Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."

    1. Re:Get it right, it is the constitution by sydney094 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, no... they were right. Aside from the fact that they are the Supreme Court, the issue was various states' laws about the interstate sale of alcohol. It didn't have a thing to do the with Internet per se... even if the Internet will be the major vehicle for such sales. Those laws allowed for intrastate sales, but not those from out of state. Only Congress has the power to regulate interstate commerce (not the states), as such those laws were ruled to be discriminatory and protectionist.

      And since we live in a country where things are legal unless they are made illegal by a law, when the law is overturned, those sales are now legal.

      --
      "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research." - Einstein
    2. Re:Get it right, it is the constitution by Petrox · · Score: 4, Informative
      Actually, the question was about the interpretation of the 21st amendment to the Constitution, which repealed the 18th amendment and thereby ended Prohibition.

      Section 2 of the 21 amendment allows states to regulate the interstate commerce of wine to some extent (the extent of which was at issue today):

      2. The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited.

      The question then is not whether states can regulate the importation of wine, but the extent of the states' power to declare which importation is "in violation of the laws thereof." The Supreme Court held today that this was intended to reflect the intent of the framers of this amendment that the normal dormant commerce clause analysis was to apply, that is, states can't discriminate against the products of other states but may generally regulate interstate commerce if done without discrimination and for a valid purpose (here, provided by the 21st amendment itself).

      IAAL.

      --
      sig my booty, check my website
  9. Maybe... by mattmentecky · · Score: 2

    Maybe its the snarkish nature of me, but minus the Internet part....doesnt this seem like a court case that should have been decided in the...oh say, 1800s?

  10. Re:Whew... by Robotech_Master · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Because it's about your right to order wine over the Internet. One o' them new-fangled Internet thing-a-majigs that the evil nasty gummint doesn't understand.

    --
    Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
  11. Re:Whew... by superpulpsicle · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The alcohol business has a serious branding issue far worst than the computing industry. It's completely driven by marketing.

    Small wine/beer companies have zero chance to compete against the likes of Budweiser, Busch, Coors and other lousy products meshed with superior marketing.

    I cannot tell you the list of wine/beer that I highly prefer, that I will never see in any restaurant. Why? Cause they'd rather stock 300 bottles of Budlight that they can sell.

  12. Justices Vote Was Surprising by Black-Man · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Kennedy, Scalia, Souter, Ginsberg and Breyer... what a majority.

    John Paul Stevens and Clarence Thomas against!?! When was the last time they were on the same side of the fence?

    Maybe this court isn't as political as some seem to believe.

    1. Re:Justices Vote Was Surprising by drmerope · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This is still a very usual split, but overall, the political nature of the court is exaggerated. When I last saw stats (several years ago), any pairwise comparison of the justices found them in agreement at least 60% of the time.

      That said, this particular 5-4 split has not happened in the past ten years

      However, within 5-4 decisions, Stevens and Thomas agree about 16 percent of the time.

      Scalia was clearly the swing-vote on this case

      "Although Scalia is no fan of the dormant commerce clause, he has written that: ... I will, on stare decisis grounds, enforce a self executing "negative" Commerce Clause in two situations: (1) against a state law that facially discriminates against interstate commerce, and (2) against a state law that is indistinguishable from a type of law previously held unconstitutional by this Court.

      Since the state laws in question here demonstrably fell into the former category, and we can infer that Scalia was not persuaded by Thomas' account of the 21st amendment, stare decisis required him to vote to strike down these laws." (http://www.professorbainbridge.com/2005/05/suprem e_court_s.html)

  13. Why this is on Slashdot by Scareduck · · Score: 4, Insightful

    1) It is a significant advance for common sense application of the Constitution. The states were clearly trying to help out whatever local businesses they had that would benefit from importation restrictions, and the Supremes saw through it. Hooray! 2) It is a blow to the idiocy of state-imposed taxes on Internet retail sales. The constitution is pretty clear that states don't get to post import duties on things brought in from other states. However, the states have been trying to squeak past this one for years. Maybe with this decision to lean on, it'll be another argument to prod the Supremes in future legal actions to reject a sales tax on cross-border transactions.

    --

    Dog is my co-pilot.

  14. Gun control? by SerialHistorian · · Score: 3, Insightful

    the constitution's "ban on state discrimination against interstate commerce.'" Interesting. Does that mean that gun control laws that ban interstate sale of firearms or requires exchange only by licensed dealers are also unconstitutional?

    --

    --
    Vote for your hopes, not for your fears - Vote Third Party

    1. Re:Gun control? by ryturner · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, those restrictions are federal laws. Individual states can't put those types of restrictions on commerce.

    2. Re:Gun control? by damiangerous · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, the laws regulating intersate firearms sales and shipments are Federal.

  15. Re:slashdot, news for lawyers? by John+Seminal · · Score: 3, Interesting
    i know, i hate adequacy and appropriateness trolls as much as the next

    but seriously, this story is pretty far off the mark of slashdot's focus, no?

    am i missing something?

    Every IT person I know is also a wine nut. I guess programming and drinking large quantities of wine go hand in hand.

    Edit that... Drinking large quantities of cheap wine that you convince everyone is better than the expensive wine. I had one buddy who went crazy over Chilean wines. He kept claiming their $8 dollar a bottle reds were better than most $30 dollar a bottle reds here in the states.

    Then again, I guess to read his code you would have to be drunk. It is the cypher.

    --

    Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."

  16. Texas also prohibited shipments from out-of-state by ptbarnett · · Score: 3, Interesting
    But, a bill was just enacted and signed by the governor on 5/9 (and effective immediately) to change that:

    SB 877

    Reading the text of the enacted bill:

    Enrolled version

    It looks like shipping direct to consumers from in-state wineries was also illegal, so perhaps the Supreme Court decision wouldn't have changed anything.

  17. So what? by Radio+Shack+Robot · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why does this stuff matter to nerds?

    --

    Beep. Boop. Beep. You have questions. I have answers and your home address.
  18. It's the basic dilemma of democracy by ShatteredDream · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Thomas' dissent was about respecting the laws that congress had already established, the written letter of the constitution and the "protecting minors" angle that the states supposedly had. Beside the obvious fact that protecting minors was never a factor in this regulatory area, Thomas does indirectly invoke a good question. Where does too much freedom become a problem?

    I happen to believe that morality means nothing when not imposed from within. Law and order can only accomplish so much and history has shown that the states that care about peace and that leave the matters of personal morality like sex and drug use to the church to deal with are the states that have the most peace. That's why some of us believe that the state's goal should be to maximize freedom to the highest extent without undermining law and order, even if many of the people don't want it.

    For libertarians, this makes sense. Why not be able to have both unfettered school prayer AND legal drug use by adults? Isn't society better off when the individual is free and the government has a few defined tasks that it specializes on rather than becoming some monstrosity that has 50 bazillion departments that regulate everything from littering to education to the hair cut a toy poodle can have on sunday? Sometimes what the people want isn't moral or legal as it infringes on the rights of others without cause.

    There was no good reason to keep people from being able to buy wine from other states directly. Part of the goal of the establishment of the federal government was to turn the states into a free trade zone. That's why the federal government has the exclusive authority to regulate interestate commerce. The "will of the people" had to bow to the law, and sometimes doing that actually makes the people freer than they may want to admit.

    Part of the reason we have a constitution is that our founders did not believe that the will of the people often should be followed... and for good reason. It was the will of most whites for much of our history to keep blacks down. It was the will of most Germans to elect Hitler. Go down the line and you'll see that good men and women backed by good laws, not a democratic process, have carried the day for freedom and justice.

  19. Re:yay by ScentCone · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Its obviously more important than things like..say..not letting completely unrelated 'riders' along on bills for something like..you know..helping our troops to survive in a battlefield environment.

    Ah, the old "government can only do one thing at a time" and "the citizenry can only think about one thing at a time" argument. Regardless, this was in front of the Supreme Court because it was brought there by people who wanted to see it resolved. If you think you can make a lucid case for congress not welding multiple topics into single bills/acts... have fun! That will never happen without an amendment, and that won't happen because it would completely paralyze the legislative process. Many bills, by definition and out of practical necessity, address several, dozens, or hundreds of "issues" at once. Constitutional language that would split the hairs on what is or is not a separate (enough) issue would be nearly impossible.

    How about just voting for people that will carry on in a way more to your liking? And how about pursuading more people to do the same? That beats the hell out of during the legislative process into an unworkable stream of micro-incremental bits and pieces.

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  20. You Could Probably Make that Argument... by Greyfox · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If they're STATE laws. A federal law to that effect would stand, since the federal government is the one that gets to regulate interstate trade.

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  21. Wish it helped me more in Maryland by [ByteMe] · · Score: 4, Informative

    This ruling might be good news for some folks in the long term, but in the short term at least it doesn't help folks in Maryland (and from what I can tell most other states). The existing state laws here don't contradict the USSC requirements.

    Useful links:
    Wine Institute pages on interstate wine shipping:
    http://www.wineinstitute.org/shipwine/

    US Wine shipping laws, state-by-state, from Wine Institute data
    http://wi.shipcompliant.com/Home.aspx

    Status of Maryland state laws is that individual wineries have to pay a $10 annual license fee, and that only allows them to ship wines that aren't otherwise available locally, and then they still have to use the three-tier system (so they have to ship to a distributor/wholesaler who then ships to a retailer near me).

    That's a pretty painful process, and it's not obvious that it produces a useful result. (If the wine is sold anywhere in the state, then it's not eligible for this shipping method AFAICT, even if there's nowhere within an hour's drive that stocks the wine...)

    Needless to say, it's more likely that I'd have such a wine shipped to a friend in a nearby state, or just find a store in DC/VA with a better selection where I can actually buy that wine. But that doesn't address things like "wine of the month" clubs which might be nice but which simply can't comply with Maryland restrictions.

  22. try 1930 something by Nf1nk · · Score: 2, Informative

    This case settles a conflict between the interstate commerece clause and the 21st amendment Passed February 20, 1933.
    Section 2.

    The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited.

    well that alows states to regulate the transport of booze in their borders, but many states NY in particular were using this to bolster local wineries at the expense of out of state whineries

    --
    I used to have a cool sig, back when I cared
  23. The Baptists will be/get pissed. by MonkeyBoyo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Baptists (non drinkers) have been a major force behind attempted legislation to force all alcohol to be sold from local retail outlets. They claim it is so underage kids can't order their own wine and drift into a life of sin. But who really thinks that a parent would not notice credit charge bills or large packages delivered to home.

    The real reason is to keep other adult Baptists from secrectly drinking. Right now, most "wet Baptists" have to drive 100 miles to buy their hooch at liquor store where it is unlikely someone will recognize them. UPS delivery will make it much easier to be secrectly wet.

    "If you go fishing with a Baptist, make sure there is at least 2 of them" (e.g. if there is only one then he will drink all of your beer).

    1. Re:The Baptists will be/get pissed. by TheTomcat · · Score: 5, Funny

      "If you go fishing with a Baptist, make sure there is at least 2 of them" (e.g. if there is only one then he will drink all of your beer).

      What's the difference between a Baptist and a Catholic?
      The Catholic will say "hi" to you in the liquor store.

      (I grew up going to a Baptist church...)

      S

    2. Re:The Baptists will be/get pissed. by Mithrandir3791 · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's not all Baptists. I'm a Baptist and I won't hesitate to tell you that there is nothing wrong with drinking. It's getting drunk that the Bible warns against. In his first letter to Timothy, Paul even tells Timothy that he should drink occasionally for health reasons (1 Tim. 5:23). And then there was the whole turning water into wine thing (John 2:1-10). The Bible clearly views alcohol as something that should be enjoyed, as long as it's in moderation.

      --
      Iesus Christus magnus est.
  24. This explicitly DOESN'T legalize it everywhere. by Kelmenson · · Score: 3, Informative
    The article even says this, although most seem to be overlooking it.

    ``If a state chooses to allow direct shipment of wine, it must do so on evenhanded terms,'' Justice Anthony M. Kennedy wrote for the court in Washington.
    and
    The decision leaves open the possibility that state legislatures can revamp their laws to ban both in-state and out- of-state direct shipments.
    Simply a state must apply the same laws to wineries out of state as it does in state. But if in state wineries can't do it, out of state ones can be blocked as well.
  25. Re:Save the fuckin' children, for chirsts sake! by geomon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    LOL, this is a health issue.

    Then why involve the government in the equation?

    Gasoline is a central nervous system depressant that can cause liver damage due to naturally occuring benzene that is expensive to remove.

    Do you propose that children should be kept more than 15 meters from a gasoline pump? Kids are exposed to gasoline vapors while their parents are fueling their vehicles.

    How about spray paint? Care to legislate the use of that material?

    The fact is governmental attempts to control the or abuse of substances is expensive and bound to fail. You can argue that the damage done to individuals from substance abuse is a burden to society, while I can counter-point that the money spent to arrest, adjudicate, and incarcerate someone would be better spent on treatment.

    Goverments are not good nannies.

    --
    "Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
  26. About time America by microbrewer · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This is great news for me seeing that was partly involved in the setting up of a online beer company whos main sales outlet is the internet and who have a Custom Label web app so you can create your own labels to put on the bottles .

    The company is called Brewtopia and the beer is called Blowfly based in Sydney, Australia and they offer shares for signing up as member on the website and for refering friends .They also give you a share in the company for ordering the beer online and ship it via courier to your house only if you live in Australia of course.

    Recently they annouced they are preparing a IPO to list on the Australian Stock Exchange.

    http://www.blowfly.com.au/ if you want to join up ,

    Now I live in the US Blowfly Beer has been unavailble in the US partly due to the law of commerce across state lines

    Great News for small wineries and microbrewers in the US and maybe even Australia .

  27. Re:Save the fuckin' children, for chirsts sake! by Aeiri · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What the hell kind of bank do you know of that gives credit cards to minors? You can't even get a checking account until you're an adult.

    Prepaid credit cards are sold to people over 16, I believe. Same with checking accounts.

    The legal age in this country is 18, so yes, they are minors.

  28. Please support your argument with real facts by Prien715 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I happen to believe that morality means nothing when not imposed from within.

    OK. Agreed.

    Why not be able to have both unfettered school prayer AND legal drug use by adults?

    We have legal school prayer. The only issue is whether an authority acting in government capacity can lead it or not. But of course, that's not "morality being imposed". That's only the government telling you how to pray. Completely different.

    Isn't society better off when the individual is free and the government has a few defined tasks that it specializes on rather than becoming some monstrosity that has 50 bazillion departments that regulate everything from littering to education to the hair cut a toy poodle can have on sunday?

    Where's the poodle part? Not aware of that. The government has evolved to be big. How would you know how large it should be? Oh that's right, you're making practical decisions based on idealogical principles! How silly of me! We don't need any evidence that it could work in a modern society! Count me in!

    It was the will of most whites for much of our history to keep blacks down.

    For the first ones, it really depends on how you define "most". In 1861 (over 100 years ago, thus further than over half our history ago), a man was elected president from a new party founded on the basis of abolishing slavery. He recieved most of the popular vote. Most of the founding fathers were against slavery in principle, but saw no way out of it (many freed their slaves after their death).

    It was the will of most Germans to elect Hitler.

    Hitler never got the majority of the popular vote so I fail to see how that's most. His high was somewhere around 1/3. In fact, if the laws written in the Weimar constitution were actually followed, Hitler would've never had vast sweeping powers. But Hitler decided he didn't need a big government making laws and abolished the government by fiat He could do it himself! I guess you and he do have something in common!

    (As a caveat, disolving the representitive body in England caused a civil war a few hundred years ago. The Germans had no such response in the 1930's, so maybe I'll give you popular acquiescence, but no doubt caused by popular fear).

    Seriously, I enjoy your principles, but where you go with it and how you derive it are simply ranting. If I want sensationalism, I'll watch Jerry Springer.

    --
    -- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
  29. Doesn't anyone care about safety? by lheal · · Score: 4, Funny

    Youth should be taught safe drinking. They should learn to know their limits, and what alcohol can do to them.

    After all, they're going to drink, so let's make sure they do it properly.

    It's time for a drinker's license, just as there are driver's licenses and hunting licenses. You should have to pass a test (with both written and practical components), or you shouldn't get to drink.

    In the absence of a drinker's license, kids will learn their drinking skills from peers and young adults, often those with the worst drinking skills. Bartenders, while often highly trained professionals, seldom have the time to instruct young novice drinkers on the finer points such as:

    • which drinks can get you hammered quickest
    • proper chugging technique
    • how to fake being drunk to avoid awkward social circumstances
    • how to fake being sober to avoid awkward legal circumstances
    • how to select the proper drink regimen to avoid blowing chunks
    • the proper use of "beer goggles", and how to act in the morning when they no longer work

    Until we properly attend to the needs of our youth, we won't be sure of the kind of society we'll become. The future of drinking, and our civilization built on its mighty foundation, is too important to be left to random chance.

    --
    Raise your children as if you were teaching them to raise your grandchildren, because you are.
  30. Re:yay by WarmBoota · · Score: 2, Insightful

    One can argue that software engineering is a flawed enough system without using it as a model for unrelated activities, but I think that a requirements gathering process would be useful in the legislative process in the U.S.A.

    Each bill should have a well-defined purpose and anything that doesn't deal with that purpose should be eliminated. There must be other means of compromise in the Congress besides the practice of lumping unrelated issues into budget approvals and omnibus acts.

    When I purchase a sandwich at a deli, I don't expect to have to pay for aluminum siding, so why does a bill about funding for troops in Iraq have to have unfunded federal mandates on driver's licenses?

    The biggest problem here is that states have lost their sovreignty in the pursuit of federal funding.

    --
    90% of everything is crap. Also, crap is relative.
  31. Re:Whew... by pyite · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Small wine/beer companies have zero chance to compete against the likes of Budweiser, Busch, Coors and other lousy products meshed with superior marketing.

    Bull. It's a completely different market. The bread and butter of the microbrew market is not people that normally buy 30 packs for a Friday night. That said, all the big beer companies in the US have seen lower sales, partially due to the more discerning share of the market getting a clue (or yuppies wanting to be cooler, you decide). I know many bars/restaurants where I can get microbrews on tap... one small place in my town has 50+ on any given night.

    --

    "Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman

  32. Re:yay by cetialphav · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Each bill should have a well-defined purpose and anything that doesn't deal with that purpose should be eliminated. There must be other means of compromise in the Congress besides the practice of lumping unrelated issues into budget approvals and omnibus acts.

    The problem with this is most bills could never be passed because the consituency for many problems isn't large enough to push the bill through. (I guess some would argue that that would be a good thing, but I am not one of them.) For example, a typical bill related to agriculture only affects states with large farming industries, but there are plenty of people who couldn't care less. So to bring other groups on board, you have to add additional benefits to the bill. This is what happens when you have to get 535 people to come to an agreement on something.

  33. Re:Save the fuckin' children, for chirsts sake! by cetialphav · · Score: 3, Insightful

    All a kid needs to do is buy a credit card, they will sell them to anyone. Then they go on-line, and order wine.

    I just can't imagine many 15 year olds out there buying 20 dollar bottles of wine to get drunk on. Wouldn't they just get a 18+ friend to buy some cheap beer for them? It has been a while, but that is what always happened when I was in high school. Besides, the current law in many states allow internet sales of wine within the state so the kids could already do this; they just can't order a California Chardonnay. I am very disappointed that there are 4 Supreme Court justices that bought this lame "save the children" argument and dissented on this.

  34. Re:Save the fuckin' children, for chirsts sake! by Skippy_kangaroo · · Score: 2, Interesting
    You seem to presume that the only thing a government can do in response to substance abuse is to make it illegal. In fact you suggest that treatment could be a better use of funds. Well, why don't you put two and two together and wonder if the government has any reason to be involved in treatment and harm-minimisation strategies.

    Consider some of the examples of Australian responses to problems with petrol sniffing or chroming. These seem to be directly related to your examples of spray paint and gasoline. Yes, people are considering restrictions on gasoline and spray paint as a way of dealing with the problems of substance abuse.

    Governments may not be good nannies but they are a damn side better than most people at taking care of themselves.

  35. Re:Whew... by d-rock · · Score: 2, Informative

    Come out to Denver some time. I believe we have more microbreweries per capita than anywhere else in the US, as well as The Great American Beer Festival (http://www.beertown.org/events/gabf/index.htm).

    Derek

    --
    Don't Panic...
  36. Want to blow your mind...go read liquor laws by Hangtime · · Score: 4, Informative

    When I was investigating a start-up, I began to read about all the different liquor laws across the country. Quite frankly, its insane. Here in Texas, certain beverage sizes are restricted to an uncommon size and wholesalers control the entire market. Alcohol producers cannot send product directly to stores it MUST BY LAW go through a distributor then sent on to your local store. Literally there are warehouses where all they do is unload the truck and reload another right there. Thank the Texas legislature and a whole lot of campaign contributions for that one.

    If your really interested in learning more about the situation and how crazy it gets you can read this great article from the Houston Press (Houston's Counter Culture Weekly Magazine) here

    http://www.houstonpress.com/issues/2005-04-07/news /news.html

  37. In a related story... by bensafrickingenius · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Michigan's Governor Granholm has a bill awaiting her signature that would allow motorists to transport an opened but recorked bottle of wine from the restaurant where it was purchased and partially consumed to the buyer's home. This is kind of a no brainer -- "hmmm, I just paid $120 for this bottle, and we only had one glass. Chug the rest and drive home sloshed, or leave it on the table for the bus boy to drink?" (It's currnetly illegal to have an open container (even a re-sealed open container) in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, at least here in Michigan).

    --
    I am not left-handed, either!
  38. Re:WOOT!!! by Darth_brooks · · Score: 3, Funny

    Does your 16-year old have his very own, unmonitored by you, credit card / debit card? Last time I checked, not many internet retailers took cash. The supreme court knocked down rules that prohibited interstate commerce. yay supreme court

    Besides your kid should have to sit around in front of a quik-e-mart and ask passersby to buy for him like the rest of us god fearing americans! Back in my day we didn't have the internet! we had creepy guys, older brothers, and bums with state ID's! and we had to have them buy is cheap wine in the snow, uphill, both ways! AND WE LIKED IT!

    --
    There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
  39. Re:Save the fuckin' children, for chirsts sake! by Black+Art · · Score: 4, Insightful

    LOL, this is a health issue. We don't want kids getting drunk and turning into alcoholics. Most banks and currency exchanges sell credit cards. All a kid needs to do is buy a credit card, they will sell them to anyone. Then they go on-line, and order wine. A few days later, they recieve a shipment at their front door. Find some house where the parents work late, and can collect the wine and go drinking.

    Since when did kids have to order expensive wine over the net to get drunk? It is not a problem. Kids do not have that good of taste, nor are they willing to spend that kind of money when they don't have to. They will get ripped on anything at hand, including American beer. They are not going to buy mail order wine to do that.

    This idea that this is to "save the children" is incredibly bogus. The real reason is to protect the in-state wine distributors from any competition.

    Anyone who uses the excuse that something is to "save the children", it almost never is. There is always some other agenda in play. Most people are too clueless to see it, however.

    --
    "Trademarks are the heraldry of the new feudalism."
  40. Now I get it by buddha42 · · Score: 2, Informative

    I was wondering why Amazon.com bought Wine.com two weeks ago. Looks like that investmet will pay off nicely now.

  41. Re:Save the fuckin' children, for chirsts sake! by nacturation · · Score: 5, Funny

    LOL, this is a health issue. We don't want kids getting drunk and turning into alcoholics.

    Yeah, I can just picture it now:

    Billy: "Hey Bobby, wanna get drunk?"

    Bobby: "Sure, Billy! But where are we going to get some alcohol? Sure we can fight in Iraq and kill people, but we need to be 21 to be allowed permission to drink certain beverages."

    Billy: "Well, lucky for me I managed to get a credit card without them knowing I'm underage."

    Bobby: "Cool! But won't stores check your ID?"

    Billy: "Aha! You forgot about the internet. Tons of shops willing to sell you cases of wine."

    Bobby: "Oh man, this is going to be great. Let's google for some wine sites."

    Billy: "Okay, here's a good one. Lots of stuff in stock. How about a 2003 Pinot Noir?"

    Bobby: "Naw, I heard that's a bad year. Now a 2004 Shiraz is just what the doctor ordered!"

    Billy: "You fool! Only sissies drink Shiraz, and 2004 is much too recent to fully develop the subtle hints of oak that a good Shiraz requires. I say we go for a medium-bodied Cabernet Sauvignon, say... 2002 late season."

    Bobby: "But all they have from 2002 is the leftover wines. Don't you read Wine Spectator? And those ones are decidedly missing out on the fruity overtones and smooth finish."

    Billy: "Good point. Hm... how about something from the Napa Valley, I hear their 2001 Merlots are spectacular."

    Bobby: "Excellent choice... so, want a case of it?"

    Billy: "Yeah, might as well. We'll have some good leftovers for all those chicks we'll invite over! [chuckle]"

    Bobby: "Okay, I'm just checking out... now standard shipping is 5-7 days, but for an extra $21.95, we can have two-day shipping fully insured."

    Billy: "Do they do overnight?"

    Bobby: "Apparently none of the couriers will take overnight shipments because it's so fragile."

    Billy: "Okay, let's do the two-day shipping."

    Bobby: "Done. Order has been placed, here's the confirmation number for UPS. Man, Wednesday night is going to be rocking!"

    Billy: "Yeah man... I can't wait..."

    Bobby: [stares at monitor blankly]

    Billy: "So..."

    Bobby: "Uh..."

    Billy: "Hey, wanna sniff some glue? Then maybe neck a little?"

    Bobby: "Sure, I'll go get the stuff!"

    --
    Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
  42. Re:Save the children, for chirsts sake! by hanshotfirst · · Score: 2, Interesting
    How about spray paint? Care to legislate the use of that material?

    Here in Ohio I believe you can get carded to buy spray paint. I'm pretty sure they cut off spray paint sales for minors to reduce vandalism. Don't know for sure - I was already past 18 when it was in the works.

    --
    Why, oh why, didn't I take the Blue Pill?
  43. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Funny

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  44. Re:Save the fuckin' children, for chirsts sake! by centralizati0n · · Score: 3, Informative

    With a cosigner on the account, you can own and use a VISA card online. I would know, as I'm a 15 year old with a VISA card that's linked to my checking account.

  45. Re:Save the fuckin' children, for chirsts sake! by raehl · · Score: 3, Funny

    while I can counter-point that the money spent to arrest, adjudicate, and incarcerate someone would be better spent on treatment.

    And I can argue that that money would be better spent on one bullet and a tax rebate.

    Why is society obliged to provide a safety net for drug use? Don't use drugs. If you do use drugs to the point that you become a burden to society, that's your problem.

    We should do what the brits did with Australia. Let's create a Drug Treatment Reservaton by walling off a few thousand acres of Wyoming and suspending minimum wage laws within that area. If you get arrested and need drug treatment, we slap one of those electronic monitors on your leg and send you to the reservation. We'll let you back out after 2 years. Either you'll figure out how to survive without bothering productive members of society or you'll die.

    Let's put drug addicts to work!

  46. Re:Maryland? Or, Montgomery County? by ScentCone · · Score: 2, Informative

    I live in Montgomery County, which, indeed, feels like a Mafia-owned town when it comes to wine sales. It's incredible that my trips to Virginia (where my data center is) double as opportunities to get real wine at real prices, but make me a felon as I drive back to my house. From what I can tell, this will make all of that moot (as long as I'm willing to pay freight to my door - I don't know that this will help with TJs!). About. Freaking. Time.

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  47. Re:Save the fuckin' children, for chirsts sake! by Skye16 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That's just the law. Pretty much everyone on campus drinks, and drinks often, regardless of age.

    The downside is when the state police and state liquor control board show up at a party and everyone bolts like they're on fire. In fact, my senior year, PLCB raided a frat party. People started jumping off the third story balcony to get away. There were crazy broken/sprained legs that day. But, I guess a broken bone or torn ACL is a small price to pay for a clean record...provided you can stagger away after you land.

    Still one of the funnier sights I ever saw. It was like the building was on fire, or a bunch of lemmings scurrying off a cliff in a big long line. Craziness.

    I posit the notion that PLCB raids cause more harm to the health of minors than alcohol. Stopping a college student from drinking is like stopping a college student from fucking. It isn't going to happen any time soon, if ever.

  48. Give more credit to the Institute for Justice by stry_cat · · Score: 2, Informative

    It was IJ's lawers who made it possible to take this case to the SCOTUS and to win the case.

    http://ij.org/economic_liberty/ny_wine/5_16_05pr.h tml

  49. Re:Err wine? by hubie · · Score: 2, Informative
    Not quite correct. The recent studies being referred to have to do with alcohol. It seems that a serving of alcohol a day (whether it be in the form of wine, beer, etc.) seems to be good for certain things (the heart, and the brain). About a decade ago there was this big red wine craze, which led some to think that it is something to do with the tannins in the grape (and hence Welch's Purple Grape Juice, as Larry King will tell you), but it seems to be just the alcohol. People who consumed a drink a day seem to do better with regard to some things than people who do not drink; however, people who drink much more than this do not do better than the moderate drinkers, and they of course suffer other maladies that moderate or abstinate drinkers do not.

    The argument for red/purple grape juice has to do with the higher antioxidant levels apparently present, but you can get higher levels in artichokes, beans, and other things. Lycopene is another buzz topic, so if you want lots of that eat tomatoes and watermelon.

    Basically the best health advice has always been to take things in moderation, and to eat healthy and exercise. I find it amazing the power of will millions of people have to stick to crazy diets and programs when all they need to do is adhere to the above advice.

  50. Re:Save the fuckin' children, for chirsts sake! by DaoudaW · · Score: 2, Informative

    Goverments are not good nannies.

    What's your alternative?

    Granted governments are imperfect, but look at the record. You use the example of gasoline and paint. What is no longer in either of these? Lead! It wasn't enlightened self-interest which took the lead out saving millions of kids from brain-damage.

    Or take the case of auto accidents. For decades Detroit couldn't sell safe cars. Few manufacturers tried and they failed. But 10s of thousands of people were being killed every year. So "Nanny" had to step in. The results were immediate and today with many more cars on the road, we have fewer deaths than we did in the '60s.

    Examples are numerous. Sure some people are still going to try to win a Darwin Award, but don't blame the government just because it can't ensure the safety of every citizen. Remember, dead people have no rights.

  51. Re:Save the fuckin' children, for chirsts sake! by tricorn · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Adding lead was a cheaper way to bring up the octane rating of the gas. They weren't "saving money" by not adding the lead, then charging more. It actually did cost them more to produce the gasoline without the lead.

    The problem with lead, and the reason it is a valid governmental purpose to regulate it, is that it is pervasive - you buy cheap gas and I suffer the consequences - I pay for expensive gas and it doesn't benefit me unless almost everyone else does the same thing.