Slashdot Mirror
Cuba Switching to Linux
Tony Montana writes "According to several news sites the government of Cuba is dumping Windows in favour of Linux. Cuba's director of information technology, Roberto del Puerto, says that Cuba already has approximately 1500 computers running on Linux, and is working towards replacing Windows on all state owned computers."
I'm assuming that all Cuban installations of Windows are pirate copies anyway, because it's illegal for US companies to sell to Cuba (very stiff penalties).
All we need is another multi billion dollar company with a reason to lobby for invading Cuba...
Just because I can imagine doing a hippopotamus, doesn't mean I'd like to do it.
That they got from where? China or North Korea? You think we wouldn't notice it coming in? Did they built a tunnel under the ocean from the Pacific over to Cuba?
Give me a break.
Cuba switch to a real democracy and they will be all set.
How does the government having sole control over an industry make it any less of a monopoly?
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
My thought exactly. And, if you RTFA (very short, all three of them) you'll find the following: "Del Puerto said his office was working on a legal framework that would allow the replacement of the Windows system". I wonder which legal framework is that? In a country that has the dictator with the longest time in office in the whole world, how much of a "legal framework" is needed, anyhow?
(BTW, congrats to you, twelfth comment and the first non-stupid, non-redundant one).
But that is the "great" thing about the GPL and similar OSS licenses. Its free to anyone dispite ideological differences. If it wasn't, a F/OSS advocating developer could bar me from using their software because I also use non-Free software. A staunch pro-life developer of a scheduling package could bar an abotion clinic from using their software. If something is going to be free, it needs to be free, not "kinda-free, only when you agree with us"
Free MacMini
It's up to Cuban copyright law to decide whether you should have to pay Microsoft to use copies of their software.
Even if they can, Cuba has loved linux for a while - obviously, even if they can they don't want to depend from USA technology. Infomed, for one (the national healtcare information sharing or whatever you english people call it) is based in linux at least
Microsoft obviously also has distributors outside the United States, and it's perfectly legal for them to sell to Cuba.
Or even Microsoft Canada. We don't buy into the isolationist argument up here, and we don't get our knickers bent out of shape trying to "prove" that communism doesn't work but undermining Cuba at every opportunity.
Yep, that "stability", it's a wonderful thing. Especially when it's maintained by imprisoning librarians.
But oh, I forgot, this is slashdot, where the US is a horrible fascist dicatorship and Cuba is a magical wonderland of sharing and human kindness.
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.
Actually they have quite a positive image in most countries of the world other than the US. Given that they've been US embargoed for several decades and yet still can offer some of the best healthcare and social services in the Caribbean says alot to their efficiency. Castro and the communist government aren't a walk in the park (e.g. human rights abuses, limited democractic rights for population, dictatorial powers) but its not nearly as bad as portrayed in the American media.
Linux is a good deal for Cuba, as they can't legally buy Windows given the US embargo...actually they can't buy most software under the circumstances. Also, their currency weakness doesn't allow them to trade for services very well. Given that Linux will make the every-day person's life more productive I can't see anyone reasonably opposing Linux adoption in Cuba...the government won't benefit from this directly.
John Maynard Keynes: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?"
What worries me is importing what is made in cuba into the US.
What happens when cuban sysadmins start submitting patches into linux? is this not then code that is a product of cuba? that would be Illegal to bring into the USA.
which then comes into a linux used in the USA?
This worries me, as then microsoft could use this as a legal loophole to prohibit the use of Linux in the USA.
That would be a big boon for them as then they would have no competition.
Think about it. How ridiculous does it sound. Or not?
Isnt that *the* major factor whenever a major corporation switches, or is looking to switch? Isnt that the main factor that is always pushed for switching from closed source to opensource here on slashdot? It isnt just the communists that want to freeload, everyone does.
Intellectual property doubly so.
Right. And that's why there's no shortage of people willing to risk death to escape from Cuba?
Unfortunately, that's bollocks. If Cuban law states that "you need not ask permission or pay anything before using software written by someone else" then it is no longer up to Microsoft. Not in Cuba anyway.
Remember, rights are not universal; they're granted at the discretion of the country in question, however much we might wish it otherwise.
For the love of God, please learn to spell "ridiculous"!!!
You could add the US to the top of that list, pal.
What's worse: a country openly proclaiming communism, or one that espouses freedom -- all the while attempting to deny it's own citizens the right to freely travel and increasing surveillance in the name of "fighting terror". Oh, and not to mention all of the "detainees" held in Gitmo. These folks, while probably a bad lot, are being held without being charged with a crime, denied access to legal representation, and in some cases have had thier HUMAN RIGHTS violated. This is the kind of shit that I used to bring up about Cuba and China.
God save the US. God Damn the current US regime.
They've been legally buying it from Microsoft Canada. Theoretically MS Canada is a separate trade entity from MS in the USA.
You did know that Canada is Cuba's biggest trading partner, right? Yay Helms-Burton law. Really effective....
If you believe everything you read, you'd better not read. - Japanese proverb
I think you'll find they are wanting to use it as it is 'free' as in 'not produced by a company in the country that has maintained a remarkably schizophrenic attitude to Cuba, attempted numerous coups and asassination attempts against the leader and is currently forcing the general populace to live below the poverty line by punitive trade embargoes all based on misplaced ideology' :).
even with a geek number system, it was zero before he posted...unless we were giving the comments numbers rather than counting, making his comment number 0.
"Remember, rights are not universal; they're granted at the discretion of the country in question, however much we might wish it otherwise."
That's not true in the US. You have inalienable rights. The government does not grant you rights, they can only restrict your natural rights when there is a need. The constitution defines the power of government to restrict your rights.
how many people will make a comment about communism and linux
Communism makes some people see red (:-), so leave it out.
More relevant here is that Linux and open source in general is about cooperation and collaboration without an enemy, whereas sociopolitical systems usually have an enemy within and always have an enemy without. Our collaborative community has no real similarity to any of that, despite the political FUD occasionally dished out by the vested interests that we're treading on.
So yeah, we'll get some negative political mud thrown at us, but who cares. It's just the death throes of the old cathedral dinosaurs on their way out.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
You're must be joking. I've been to Cuba too and I found it a horribly backward country suffering under a terrible and corrupt dictatorship.
The country is full of murals saying how wonderful they are and how they defeated the US. The people are piss poor and you see disabled people walking around on improvised crutches made out of branches. Everything is a lie in Cuba...
If only the US would understand it's their embargo that's keeping Fidel in the saddle.
I remember our local left-of-center rag going on about American profligate use of energy, pointing to color TVs as offenders, how black and white TVs use much less energy and are preferred in . . . Cuba. Never mind that modern solid-state color TVs use about as much electricity as an average light bulb and that Cuba's energy conservation kick may have more to do with their economics rather than Uncle Fidel being friends with Amory Lovins.
I would put the love of Linux in the same category. Sure, it is great that someone economizes by not paying a tithe to Microsoft, but bragging about Cuba switching to Linux is kind of like saying, "Linux, the choice of a third-world failing Communist dictatorship with an aging nutcase leader."
Oh, and about the response that Cuba is the victim of the U.S. trade embargo -- I believe just about everyone else in the world trades with Cuba and visits Cuba.
It is ironic that the real communists want to use GNU/Linux because it is free as in beer.
I just went back through the three articles cited in the story, and I didn't see any mention as to why Cuba was going through the conversion to Linux. Where did you get your information?
Other than the "free as in beer" reason, these possibilities occur to me:
I also question your use of the word "ironic" in this context, but I'll leave discussion of english metallurgy to slashdot's esteemed group of grammar nazis.
I look forward to the day when people stop letting themselves be consumed with hatred.
It does. Now if we could just get people to understand that the word "communism" doesn't mean what they think it means.
You should probably do some research before posting:
Only a slashdotter could turn Cuba into beacon of freedom, and the US as the one with "misplaced ideology" But getting a +5 insightful? Now THAT caught me by surprise.
-- "of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong." --Dennis Miller
I agree. Assuming Cuba is paying for Windows (possibly from Microsoft Canada?) out of necessity, it's better to support a company that isn't based in the U.S. -- for philisophical reasons.
However, that leads to the next big question -- which distro will Cuba use... or will they roll their own?
There are a few Spanish-language distros available to choose from that aren't owned by large American companies.
If they do choose to role their own, what copyright law exists to make sure that they don't fork it off and close the source themselves? If for economic reasons, they're only interested in free beer, this is a risk.
--- Dan
Two points:
First, there's an issue of degree. There are far more ordinary people in Cuban prisons, who would not be imprisoned in any free country. This imprisonment doesn't require national-level exceptions to normal rules of due process, it's a routine thing. That's not the case with Jose Padilla.
Second, I wasn't defending the US, I was pointing out that Cuba is still a very repressive place, and those who want to pretend that everything's cool and its problems should just be accepted with a wink are themselves collaborating in the repression of the Cuban people.
How could you forget this is slashdot? every other comment is fanaticism.
I try to only read linux articles but I still can't avoid every thread being made into why the USA is evil.
-- "of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong." --Dennis Miller
Its funny listening to Americans comment on a country that the vast majority have never been to. Not to mention countries that they are not free to visit should they want to.
Not being American, and therefor being FREE to go where I please, I can tell you that a rum and COKE is not hard to come by. Funny, I thought Coke was an American company?
Looks like the US has a much larger problem with Coke smuggling than they thought.
Haven't any of you sheeple figured it out yet, it is only illegal if you are not a giant corporation. If you have 30 employees and you trade with Cuba, look out, those Southern redneck senators will hunt you down like dogs. If you employ 30,000 employees, and pay of the douchbags on the hill, you can do as you please.
The US policies against Cuba are bad for Cuba, but great for the rest of the world. It has left a Carribean island with great weather, great beaches, great cigars, affordable accomodations and best of all, NO Americans. It's like vacation heaven. Besides, none of you would like it there. Really.
Amnesty International is hardly an American lapdog of an organization. Just because you don't like the USA, don't delude yourself into thinking that any enemy of the USA is righteous and noble.
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.
currently forcing the general populace to live below the poverty line by punitive trade embargoes all based on misplaced ideology
And you say nothing of a megalomaniac Marxist king of sorts who runs a feudal state and who has been practicing economic voodoo for 40 years, and you blame the US for Cuba's poverty? Who is the real schizophrenic.
an ill wind that blows no good
I think you'll find they are wanting to use it as it is 'free' as in 'not produced by a company in the country that has maintained a remarkably schizophrenic attitude to Cuba, attempted numerous coups and asassination attempts against the leader and is currently forcing the general populace to live below the poverty line by punitive trade embargoes all based on misplaced ideology' :).
I've never understood this line of reasoning that the US embargo on Cuba causes them to live in poverty. It is only the US that won't trade with Cuba. China, Russia, The EU and most of the world have no restrictions on trade with Cuba. You can buy Cuban cigars anywhere outside the US and travel from outside the US to Cuba is largely unfettered.
First, there's an issue of degree. There are far more ordinary people in Cuban prisons, who would not be imprisoned in any free country.
Perhaps. They jail political dissidents. We jail pot smokers. Thus, the US has the highest imprisonment rate in the world. (Or very close- we don't know North Korea's) Cuba's not even in the top ten.
Second, I wasn't defending the US, I was pointing out that Cuba is still a very repressive place, and those who want to pretend that everything's cool and its problems should just be accepted with a wink are themselves collaborating in the repression of the Cuban people.
I'd be one of the last to defend Cuba- it's a wreck of a country due to a meglomanical dictator. The world will be a better place when Castro is worm food.
But other countries simply don't see Cuba with anywhere near the level of hatred in the US. They see us pointing fingers at Cuba's repressive practices while we're busy keeping people in legal limbo forever in our own tiny slice of Cuba.
If we had cleaner hands other countries might be more willing to listen to us about Cuba.
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
North Korea does also.
Don't forget China, they also have a parliament and a constitution.
What about Iraq under Saddam? Yep, parliament and constitution.
What about Eastern Germany? Yep, parliament and constitution.
And the list goes on and on and on...
Your point was?
Seriously, having a parliament and a constitution doesn't mean anything unless there is democracy and rule of law.
I'm really wondering what intelligent people modded parent up...
President who cannot be voted out of office == dictator
America is pretty much the only country not trading with Cuba directly. In spite of that, millions in US currency flow into Cuba every month through indirect routes, including the sizable Cuban population who fled to the US for love of freedom. Overall, Cuba has a national GDP of $33.92 billion, which gives them a far better per-capita than most other countries with similar poverty levels.
The reality simply is that Cuba is run by a corrupt and incompetant military dictator whose only prior qualification was being a spoiled rich kid and lawyer. The complete mismanagement of the economy by his everlasting regime led to scarcity, and the spoils system inherent in any communist regime has led to a disparity whereby most Cubans live in abject poverty, but the priveledged few live in opulant comfort.
Cuba is not even a good example of how a communist ought to be run, but it is an excellent example of how communist governments eventually are run.
Speaking from a third party country, Britain, if you think that the US holds the moral highground over Cuba, you are sadly mistaken. For example, if my company were to trade with Cuba, maybe to import Havana cigars, then the US, who is not party to the trade, and supposedly believes in free trade has a law whereby they can apply sanctions to my company. The way America has bullied Cuba for years, simply because they disagree with it's political system is appaling. During the cold war it was understandable, especially the missile crisis. But this many years after the cold war has ended it is ridiculous.
How can this possibly be marked as 'interesting'? It is an open secret that Microsoft (or frankly any other software vendor) would rather have people use their software illegally than use a competitors software. This is true even if they would never admit it.
While this may be a net-zero cash flow move for Microsoft, there is a possibility that this may influence another Latin American country to follow suit, possibly one from which that Microsoft might actually get cash out of.
My guess is that there will be no official comment out of Microsoft.
Cuba doesn't have trade embargoes with the entire world, does it? Why doesn't it profit from the trade it engages in with Mexico and Canada? BECAUSE IT'S A DICTATORSHIP! Neither capital, labor, nor information flow freely, or even semi-freely. Central planning is what keeps North Korea starving, and Zimbabwe on the brink of starvation.
Your bias is showing. He didn't say anything about it being a beacon of freedom, he simply said their main concern might not be cost, but that the alternative is produced by a nation who never misses a chance to re-state that Cuba is its enemy.
And the implied suggestion, that the USA's policy towards Cuba is stupid, well, I'd like to see you argue otherwise.
From where do people get the numbers to judge Cuba's healthcare success? That's right, from the Cuban government. Russia also was tops in the world in tractor manufacturing, to hear them tell it.
I've been sick in Cuba. I'd rather be sick in Cuba than in the UK. The UK *imports* health-care professionals; Cuba *exports* them (eg. to South Africa, that evil crypto-Communist state). I've not heard any health-care statistics from the Cuban government, merely contrasted treatments, doctors' bedside manners, etc. Cuba sucks in many ways, but healthcare truly isn't one of them... although one Cuban doctor apologised, explaining that since I was a tourist I couldn't have access to certain treatments that were reserved for Cuban taxpayers. Bloody commies.
(Worth mentioning that my - self-inflicted - medical condition was cronic toothache brought on by organically-reared meat fed largely on the surplus sugar crop. Hmmm, sweet, organic bacon!)
This is where the serious fun begins.
If the copies are illegal (...)
I suspect the copies are 100% legal. By Cuban law. Is there any other that matters in this case? I somehow doubt Cuba has signed any international copyright agreements.
Nobody in Cuba should be able to run Windows Update.
What about foreigners who has actually paid for it?
There are plenty of military dictatorships in the world.
The US doesn't maintain crippling economic embargos against most of them.
If you think the US attitude towards Cuba is *anything* other than a relic of the Cold War and the political consequence of the relatively large power wielded by exiles in the arena of Florida politics, you are sadly mistaken. And the sad truth is, Cuba does have the high ground in this.
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
Well, if the US hadn't interfered with all sorts of trade embargoes, particularly after the cold war, then it would be much clearer who's to blame for the poverty in Cuba, eh?
I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
I completely agree. I am one of those lucky amaericans who HAVE been to Cuba (in 2001). While there I kept thinking to myself
"This is a beautiful country with very nice people...I dread the day that americans invade and ruin a perfectly good thing."
For every nice american travelling, there are at least 3 that act like asses and are ignorant of the culture they are visiting.
Look, however much governments (US or otherwise) wish to pretend that their foreign policy is based on morality, it isn't. OK? Foreign policy is solely about protecting your national interests : in terms of finance and security, and the sooner you recognise that, the more sense you'll make of it.
It's not about good guys vs bad guys, and it's especially not about democracy vs. dictatorship. A dictator friendly to US interests (the House of Saud, for instance) is always going to treated more favourably than an unfriendly democrat (say, the President of France, or "Old Europe" as we like to call ourselves).
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
Funny, I think the same thing when I see someone with a Bush/Cheney bumpersticker.
It's not an "open secret", it's stated policy.
As a canadian, you are full of sh!t...ROYALLY!
First off, I find it amusing that you wrote the word "sh!t" with an explanation point, as if to try to be polite, yet wrote "FUCKING" in capital letters only 7 words later... but I digress.
OH WAIT! I forgot, you watch our state-run(commie) TV,CBC...so naturally everything is the badbad amerikkans fault, right?
Almost every nation in the world, democratic or otherwise, has a federally opeated broadcaster (The United States being the notable exception; though the United States is also violently capitalist in nature, so that explains that). This isn't communist at all. Either way, I'm doubting your Canadianism; things aren't "state-run" in Canada, they're "crown controlled".
Semantics aside, the word your feeble mind is probably grasping at is "socialist". Of course, "socialism" and "communism" aren't synonyms, despite how many conservative fear-mungerers on Fox News have tried convince you otherwise.
Of course, you may just be parroting the old conservative half-truth that the media is "liberal", in which case you'd be a sheep who isn't really sure what the word "liberal" means, either.
At any rate, the last time I saw the CBC indite the Americans for something morally questionable was .... oh wait.... never. So regardless of what you think about the CBC you don't really have a point at all, do you?
bash-3.00$ uname -a
SunOS panda 5.10 Generic sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-2
I am no way a cuba fanboy of any kind..
Well, that's a good thing.. Oh no, wait.. I sense a "but" coming. This is how people who dislike the US argue about injustice in the world. "I'm no fan of the 9/11 hijackers, BUT..", followed by a litany of US crimes, real and imagined.
Dude : The discussion we're having right now is about Cuba's human rights record. Bringing your anti-US bias into the discussion is completely off-topic and has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Castro's Cuba violates people's basic human rights on an ongoing basis.
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.
We don't buy into the isolationist argument up here, and we don't get our knickers bent out of shape trying to "prove" that communism doesn't work but undermining Cuba at every opportunity.
And Cuba doesn't point Nuclear Missles at you either.
Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
How is a third world dictatorship, where you can't surf the internet without explicit permission from the government, switching to Linux supposed to bring good attention to Linux? Shouldn't this be something that Linux advocates try to downplay?
Next Up: The government of Sudan has endorced Linux - "We wouldn't be able to carry out our genocide of non-muslims without it! We have 3,000,000 corpses to attest to the efficiency of open source software!".
Also in News: The president of NAMBLA announces the growth of Linux use amoung child pornographers. "Windows just isn't secure enough to download kiddie porn without worrying about some police force exploiting a Windows flaw to catch us. Linux is the only OS for hardcore child-porn fanatics!"
Yeah, great... Just when Linux and Open Source software is starting to get good publicity from the press, Linux "Advocates" are now trying to link Linux to totalitarian regimes. With friends like these, who needs enemies!
If you think this phenomenon is unique to United States citizens, you are sadly mistaken.
Interesting comments. I always thought the trade sanctions against Cuba were put in place because of the seizure of US companies/assets by Castro during the takeover.
Wow, you've really bought the anti-communist propaganda hook, line, and sinker, haven't you? First, Communism says nothing about private ownership of things. Just the means of production. Work incentive? What's that? Oh, right, "Everyone is a greedy lazy bastard who cares nothing about anyone but themselves and must be bribed into working with a big juicy carrot." Guess what? Most people care more about fairness, justice, and reciprocity than about pure selfish interest. People are motivated to work by many things. Don't try to write about Marx's ideal when you obviously haven't read anything he's written. Nothing in communism precludes rewarding excellence or withholding rewards for non-production, it just means that everyone is taken care of to a basic standard. The grandparent poster's comparison is very valid. The Russians practiced real communism for all of about two years right after the revolution, then the bastard monopolist capitalists took control and changed everything but the name. Read some history, and stop drinking the corporatist kool-aid, there's something funny in it.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
The Saudi's are still appalling violators of human rights, and the latest Amnesty International reports suggest they're not about to change. The difference between American treatment of Saudi Arabia and Cuba is based on two things
i) Cuba is near, and the spectre of a communist boogeyman still plays well with the US electorate.
ii) Access to one of the world's largest reserves of oil is of more strategic importance than access to the world's best cigars.
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
I think the 46 years of blockade, economic warfare, and *military attacks* put paid to that debt a while ago, myself.
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
You can have that money right after you give the Native American's their land back.
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
I don't know about the GP, but I personally can see how ownership is an artificial construct. Why does this land belong to me, other than the fact that it is currently in my possession and I have a piece of paper that says so?
Ownership is a legalism that has no meaning without the appropriate laws. It's not really a privilege so much as the government created the institution of ownership in the forging of the social contract that makes the government legitimate.
Haec merda tauri est. Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
don't start that bs again.
Just because it's the only recent example of one people taking over a land that was inhabited by another people means nothing. It's the only one in recent history that people can, for some reason, blame the USA for and get away with it.
If we had examples of other countries like the people of britian BEFORE the "britians" formed a country people would decry them as well, but since it's so long ago no one even cares. And that's my attitude about the natives... myself haveing a LOT of my own ancestory with them.
The fact of the matter is, every people before the land they occupied became a country/territory as we see it today, was simply "owned" by someone else before them. Wars, countries uniting and dissolving were and will always be a fact of history.
Now quit the rant about the Native Americans. They had their chance and time to rule over this continent... now it is ours for the next thousand years or so.
Interesting. When I was at school in Britain, every morning we said a prayer to God. In America I believe your kids pledge allegance to the flag of the United States of America. Now you might just accept that as a normal thing, but from this side of the pond that looks rather like like "brainwashing starting in kindergarten."
The way America has bullied Cuba for years, simply because they disagree with it's political system is appaling.
But keep in mind, America also disagrees with China's political system, and look how much business we do with them. It's not about politics, it's that the only thing worth importing from Cuba is the cigars. Without China, we wouldn't have most of the products that support our digital lifestyles.
Yeah, and we're DEFINITELY not brainwashed at all here in the US. Just keep saying that to yourself.
It's amazing how folks can moralize about Cuba and completely ignore US-sponsored atrocities everywhere else in Latin America. Who are you going to blame Haiti on? How do you justify our attempts to oust a thice-elected leader in Venezuela? Constant invasions of Guatemala, Nicaragua, Panama etc etc etc?
The fact is, the US is an aggressive, militant empire that has it's boot on the neck of thousands of poor people across latin america. Castro may be an oppressive dictator, but he can't come close to matching the kind of bloodthirsty domination the US has wreaked.
And don't get me started about the anti-Castro terrorists in Miami. Castro is a drop in the bucket, but here in the brainwashed US he's "worse than hitler".
Well I'm glad you conceited snobs enjoy the embargo while the people of Cuba suffer because of it. The embargo severely cripples the Cuban economy, but hey, let's keep those people in poverty just so a few snobs like yourself can vacation on the Island free of American influences.
Perhaps you're not aware that not only can the USA not trade with Cuba under the embargo, but any international vessel that trades with Cuba cannot trade with the USA on that same trip. So if you are trading anything, you will aim most of your travels to the USA, because the Cuban imports/exports will not add anythign appreciable.
You may love keeping the embargo intact so you can take small vacations there like the conceited snob you are, but Cubans have alot of difficulty buying everyday necessities such as medicines, light bulbs, automobile parts, etc because of it.
You may love great beaches and cigars, which explains your reasons for going. When I (a US citizen) went we brought tens of thousands of dollars worth of medicines that US hospitals were disposing because they were just past their expiration date (but still good for all intents and purposes). The hospitals we visited were extremely gracious for this, medicines are really in short supply there because of the embargo.
You may like not dealing with Americans travelling in your little vacation paradise, but most cities are poorly lit, with only every 3 or 4 streetlights on. I thought at first this was to save electricity, but it's because they have a very short supply of light bulbs they can get through the embargo.
You may love the antique cars still driving around (with ridiculous amounts of air pollution), but Cubans have tough times getting automobile parts through the embargo. That's why they still have many old cars from before the embargo was placed. They have tough times not only buying new cars but even replacement parts for old cars. But hey, let's keep them in this state just so you can go and visit this quaint island.
It's funny how you dislike Americans so much, yet you're in reality far worse than the average American you despise so much.
And in arguing that, you accept that Castro and his revolutionaries had a right to take the American owned land in Cuba away from the US. Lets face it he had far more justification, what him actually being Cuban and all.
You are right about having political murals around the country.
You don't like improvised crutches, but then you should be against the embargo so they can get proper medicines and other health-care items.
You are also right that the embargo works to Fidel's advantage, in that the tighter the US squeezes the more Fidel can rally the people.
But you are wrong if you claim it's Fidel keeping the people poor, for the resources they have and the limited trading they can do with other countries, Cuba is a far more advanced nation than other similar countries.
And the other thing is that everybody is equally poor - same access to education, health care, food, etc. Unlike nearly every other Latin American country, where the rich are super rich elites and the poor live in total abject poverty.
Lenin referred to these people as "useful idiots".
No he didn't.
When a centralized authority assumes control of the resource, they own it.
So the board of directors actually own companies, not the shareholders?
Actually, that appears to no longer be the reason for the embargoes. It is all about keeping in power... Think about it, how many Cubans have fled to the US, because they hated Castro? A sizeable number, I think there are about a million of Cuban origin there, and they all want to keep on punishing Castro with these sanctions. They will vote for whoever is most against Cuba. Now where exactly are they? Well, they couldn't have gone far, so what is the closest state to Cuba... why, Florida! Now can anyone name a state where a million undecided voters really, REALLY matters?
To answer your biggest question:
No. Not surprised at all. I 'helped' a friend write a political science thesis on Cuba. Although you've reasonably well turned the clock back to 1934, you've come off as shallow because you haven't examined Cuban history very deeply. The Jones Costigan Act was meant to re-pay the costs of the Spanish-American War of 1898 in which the USA invaded Cuba and rid the Cubans of their Spanish overlords.
By linking their economy intimately to that of the USA, the Cubans were buying their ongoing protection as well. Throughout the first half of the 20th century there were real or at least perceived threats from foreign European powers. Placating the neighborhood bully is a relatively common method of insuring your own safety.
By the 50s, this system was becoming old. The Batista regime was becoming to arrogant, brutal and corrupt to recieve sympathy from the USA and the sugar producing states were developing. The Everglades was partially drained in the early fifties, producing wonderful sugar cane acreage.
Cuba was ripe for revolution and the US was unwilling to prevent it.
But for you to say, "Before 1959, Keynesian economics were more advanced in Cuba than in the United States." just shows the shallowness of your comprehension. Cuba was paying off an international debt and as a commodity producing nation had everything to benefit from stability in the commodity price. By throwing wide open the production, the revolutionary government obliterated that stability and forced their own nation into an economic tailspin which could only be rescued by joining the Soviet bloc. Soviet oil supported the Cuban economy for over 30 years, the Cuban people only managed to trade one master for another via revolution.
Fidel, as a true socialist, deserves respect, but his economic background was in no way Keynesian.
As usual the academic left tends to approach Cuba from an ideological standpoint without paying any attention to reality.
So long and thanks for all the fish . . . !!!
all you have to say when it comes to the US and South America is UFCO, and say it over and over.
Do the actions of the U.S. against Chile in 1970 justify the means used by Castro against his own people since before that time (1959) up till this day?
Are you saying that you tolerate or even support the curbing of basic freedoms and human rights in Cuba because those things are necessary?
Are you saying that Castro is justified in ignoring the rights in the constitution he himself had rewritten (i.e. Varela petition with 10000 signatures was ignored and the leaders imprisoned)?
Are you saying that some dictatorships are justifiable because keeping a single leader in power for 46 years is the only way for smaller countries to defend their interests?
Please use your press freedoms to denounce U.S. mistakes if you want, but please don't use them to help a loathsome government justify denying them to its own people. Such things are unnecessary and unjustifiable, and none of us should be supporting the curbing of basic freedoms anywhere, and much less for 46 years.
Go back and take a look at the last few presidential elections and not how often Florida was a close state that could make or break a close election - and how many Cubans live in Florida. The reason we still have an embargo on Cuba is because nobody wants to take a chance of alienating these voters and losing an election because of it. It's got nothing to do with communism (which even most Republicans no longer see as a threat.)
Kind of makes you think - if the Clinton administration had taken a more cynical tack in the Elliot Gonzales case, Gore might well have carried Florida in 2000, seeing as he only lost it by 300 votes or so.
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
There are no 100% "good" or "bad" countries. That is, there are good and bad people and policies everywhere you go.
Some bad apples resulted in living, breathing, bleeding human beings being brutalized at Guantanamo. Bad. Same thing happens every day in (US) prisons. Bad. Some tin-pot 3rd-world dictator kills hundreds of thousands (Idi Amin, for example). Bad. The "leader of the free world" (*cough*), kills tens of thousands of civilians in a campaign against Iraq. Bad.
Get it? Bad is bad. Whether you subscribe to moral relativism or absolutism, you can't get around that the US has dealt out quite a bit of "bad" in its 230-ish years on the global map.
You are citing statistics which coincide with the end of the cold war, not just a change in the sanctions regime. Sanctions, as usual, have not accomplished the task, at some point, force will be necessary. :)
I'm not going to accuse you of lying, because I think doing so is pretty amateurish. You have misrepresented the cause of your statistics.
It could very easily be attributable to the lack of support provided by the USSR, not the sanctions.
This is the typical leftist unthinking outrage, of course, so I wouldn't expect facts to stop you.
I think that there is a general understanding even here in the US that the sanctions on Cuba are both counterproductive and implimented in such a way as to hurt the generally innocent Cuban civillians. I think that most Americans would favor more trade with Cuba. The problem instead however is that the ages of the past seem to lie like a nightmare on the present, and what was once a cold-war imperial policy (the Cold War was an imperial chess game between two cultural and political empires, IMO).
See here is the problem: During the Cold War, the US implimented a policy of helping Cubans who didn't much like Castro immigrate to the US, where they now make up an indispensible voting block on one of the most important states (Florida). In doing so, we have essentially imported Castro's oppoisition to the US, where they are now a formitable force. Sort of a tail wagging the dog....
So now, anyone with presidential aspirations cannot afford to alienate this group. So while we can pursue free trade with China (which seems to be helping to force them to transform their economy to more of a market one), it is politically impossible to do this with Cuba.
Furthermore, lets look at this idea of placating evil. I have only a few names to mention: Joseph Stalin, Saddam Hussein, Manuel Noriega, Ho Chi Minh.... Each of these people have either been close US allies or CIA operatives. With friends like these, who needs enemies? Just like the Germanic tribes and the Romans, only former allies can beat the world's largest superpower. We saw that with Vietnam, and we may be seeing that today with Iraq.
Today, things are probably a little better, but we still see issues with the regimes of countries like Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Russia in terms of systematic oppression of their peoples. Yet these are still our current allies. China was left off the list because I don't think that they are really being seen as an ally at the moment. So I ask again, with friends like these who needs enemies?
Interestingly if oyu look at Africa, those countries which during the cold war associated themselves with the USSR are now further in their transition to democracy than those dictatorships that the US propped up. Sometimes I think that we are our own worst enemy in these regards.
Our embargo of Cuba is an anacronism, and a relic of days gone by which has unfortunately institutionalized itself. Free trade is the one weapon we could use with impunity against Castro and which his government could not withstand. Yet it is off the table because it is seen as placating him.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
He is one of the most articulate politicians of the last century. You may fully disagree with him, but you can't challenge much his consistency.
He is educated and cultivated, when he talks to friends he prefers to talk about literature, poetry and movies than about politics. He would put to shame most other world politicians on a debate or discussion, and very often does when given a chance.
His ideology may be unrealistic but it is not irrational. Christianity is also irrational but follows a dogma. In general nobody calls the pope nuts for this reason.
The failure to encourage Cuba to become a democracy has a lot to do with the underestimation of the capacity of Fidel Castro as a politician.
Cuba would perhaps be a democratic country today if successive US goverments would have treated Fidel Castro as the able politician he is and offered him a dignified way out of his isolationism.
The US have done so with far worst dictators.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
The UK forgave the US. Why can't the US forgive Cuba?
I make a reasonable middle-class wage by going to work and not spamming blogs with scams.
And the only reason the Russians agreed? Because the US had nukes in Turkey pointing at Moscow. This is before ICBMs, so nukes had quite short ranges. Putting nukes on Cuba LEVELLED the playing field, as it was the first time Russia had the capability to get a nuke onto US soil without using vunerable (interceptable) bombers.
And when it ended (thank JFK for that, stayed calm while others wanted to start WW3 then and there with a first-strike), the USA agreed to with draw it's missles from Turkey. A very powerful propaganda campaign then kicked into the make sure the US public didn't find out about the Turkey aspect, thus blaming Russia for the whole thing and making themselves look like the victors.
So, in your own words, who's the "fascist foothold". I suggest you look up fascism in the dictionary. It likely says "see current US administration". Here's dictionary.com's take:
"Dictator" is a funny one, as it's not one person. The US is ruled by the arms and oil industries, bush is just the public front-end. Take away the "dictator" from the definition and the US is practically the dictionary definion of it. If you speak out against it, you are "with the terrorists" or "un-American". The idea of this itself is so unAmerican it would be laughable if it wasn't for the fact that your nation is willing to kill thousands of people every single year for it's own benefit.
There is no way that the US can EVER claim moral superiourity over Cuba. And keeping this bullshit ongoing for so many years is almost fucking childish!!
" You need to get your facts straight. You are saddling the people of america with the actions of CIA operatives during the fight against communism."
You sit back and let them do it. Heck you even vote the people in. You don't get off the hook that easy.
After reading some of the comments, I couldn't help creating an account and posting this. Images can say a lot more than words. Visit www.therealcuba.com I'm cuban and it really hurts too see someone defending such cruel system (most of them not even know the truth about the country and everything its people - including my familiy and friends- go through each day)
Uh, I can safely say the Cuban authorities *didn't* clean up the areas likely to be visited by foreign dignitaries, for the simple reason that much of what I saw was - how to put this politely? - a shit-hole. The shops were unstocked, the roads were badly in need of a resurfacing, and the cars varied between the "stretch-Zils" (take two decrepit Soviet cars, vut in two, weld together), modern Japanese imports that wouldn't survive their first service (lack of parts), the stereotypical 1950's Detroit classic held together with duct-tape and love, etc. As a patient, the healthcare, however, was excellent.
Cuba is *not* the Soviet Union, anymore than the UK is the USA, or Canada is Mexico. Similarities in ideologies do not translate into identical economies, legal systems, etc.
On the subject of foreign dignatries visiting, the G8 leaders will be visiting Scotland in July. Exactly how much of the real Scotland do you think they'll see? How many protesters will they see? My guess is very little and very few.
This is where the serious fun begins.
The topic of this article is Cuba. The OP posted some uninformed puffery about Cuba's stability. I pointed out that Castro maintains this stability by imprisoning librarians.
You show up, and rattle off a list of US "crimes", having absolutely NOTHING to do with the discussion. This is why it's impossible to talk to leftists about human rights. No matter what wrongness is being perpetrated in the world, you simply must bring the topic back to the US, your root of all evil.
(Note: Some twat made became my foe, or made me a foe, or something, because of this discussion! Hello twat! Don't bother replying, unless you can somehow undo the -6 mod my foes automatically get.)
I don't much blame them. You haven't made any kind of argument beyond rattling off boring rehashed Chomsky-esque propaganda, Nazi references and all. You're off topic and it's pointless to argue with you.
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.