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Putting The RPG Back Into MMORPG

Posted by Zonk on from the that'd-be-nice dept.

Garthilk writes "In the last two weeks since E3 I've read at least three gushing reviews about an upcoming game by Simutronics, called Hero's Journey. MMORPG.com gave it their E3 best of show award. CorpNews said it blew their pants off. IGN even had a good interview with the CEO of Simutronics. Warcry even goes so far as to say that it will turn gaming world upside down. The question still lingers though, can a company who has focused on text based roleplaying games cut it in the graphical world?" From the MMORPG.com article: "In a year full of big budget, big company titles, Hero's Journey offered graphics on par with all the major players and an extremely exciting look at their game play. E3 2005 marked a show where several high profile games were touting very similar features (state based combat), and in swept Hero's Journey with their innovative group combat, highly cinematic missions, interactive environments and hands down the best character creation ever put into an MMORPG."

69 comments

  1. Old vaporware seeing new light? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hero's Journey is vaporware from almost 6 years ago. I wonder if it will finally be developed?

    1. Re:Old vaporware seeing new light? by Trespass · · Score: 2, Interesting

      While this is the old name, this is a totally new game.

    2. Re:Old vaporware seeing new light? by CeramicNuts · · Score: 2, Insightful

      HJ screenshots from '99: http://web.archive.org/web/20010501094458/hjvault. ign.com/screenshots/terrain/

    3. Re:Old vaporware seeing new light? by nsxdavid · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yup, it is a totally new game. We started over. And we spent three years working on nothing but tools and design for the looming battle we intended to wage against medeocrity in MMORPGs. If nothing else, I hope we give the genre a much needed shove forward....

      --
      David Whatley
    4. Re:Old vaporware seeing new light? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Those screenies are WAY out of date.

      Try the http://www.play.net/hj/ site directly for screenshots that aren't 6 years old.

      That was a totaly different game than what it is now.

      Royce

    5. Re:Old vaporware seeing new light? by poolmeister · · Score: 1

      Wow!

      Does it run in WINE?

      :D

      --
      CN=poolmeister.OU=lurkers.CN=slashdot
    6. Re:Old vaporware seeing new light? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a 10 year veteran of GemStone... about time!

      My question is, are we likely to see GM and Staff involvement in HJ as we've come to see in GemStone and DragonRealms?

      By that I mean live NPC merchants and other big events, long-running quests with staff participation, RP awards, etc?

    7. Re:Old vaporware seeing new light? by nsxdavid · · Score: 1

      Yes, that is our intention. We expec tot have long-runnning quests with staff participation, RP awards and NPC merchants. Now, because of scale, we may have to adjust our approach. But, personally, I want to bring as much of that over to the graphical side as possible. Maybe even more so... we'll see.

      --
      David Whatley
  2. Role or Roll playing? by subl33t · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It sounds ambitious but I would really like to know how the method of character progression actually differs from any mmorpg already out there.
    Can the GMs award extra experience for clever solutions? Can they award a character extra experience for behaving as a particular character (priest, druid, etc) should? Can they subtract experience for a player acting out of character?
    Until/unless that happens the "R" in computer RPGs will stand for "roll".

    1. Re:Role or Roll playing? by kamawell · · Score: 1, Insightful

      1. Any reward or penalty system has to be administered in a regulated fashion or else a game's fee paying subscribers will call foul. 2. Any regulated reward or penalty system will be analysed, broken down and details posted on every HJ fan site and forum. 3. Role playing goes out the window as in all MMORPGs (dedicated RPG servers apart) as people do whatever it takes to climb the ladder. Be a real geek - get a stack of rule books and a pound of dice if you want to roleplay.

    2. Re:Role or Roll playing? by The+Kow · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Purists will never be happy, I guess. You don't need a GM giving you cookies to make it a "true" rpg. Especially when all quests are instanced, you can progress through things in your own manner, interjecting additional content as you see fit. You are still forced at some point to come back to the game design, but that's the tradeoff of a game that you, and everyone like you, can play with all of your friends.

      --
      Moo
    3. Re:Role or Roll playing? by Daysdivinity · · Score: 1

      I am a player of Simutronics's (Maker of Hero's Journey) MUD Gemstone IV. In my experience the GMs do reward you for "good role-playing". It can be for something as simple as staying in character or becoming involved in a GM run storyline (quest). These awards increase the rate at which you gain experience for a finite amount of time. They have always been fairly liberal with these role-playing awards but I've never heard of a player being penalized for being OOC other than a trip to the consultation lounge for a warning. I do however, have concerns regarding the large influx of players that have no concept of "staying in character" or have names like joekiller34. It will be interesting to see how Simutronics handles this, especially considering they've been dealing with a well-established player base that generally already knows the rules.

    4. Re:Role or Roll playing? by HarvardAce · · Score: 1
      I do however, have concerns regarding the large influx of players that have no concept of "staying in character" or have names like joekiller34.

      I also played Gemstone IV (and Gemstone III before it). The GMs were very good at recognizing good roleplaying, and I never heard any complaints about GM favoritism or anything along those lines. I also share your concern -- when Gemstone III was linked up with the Zone, they offered a free trial which drastically increased the number of players for a few months -- during these times, the RP got pretty bad at times, but soon the "1337" newbs left and things settled back down. My guess is that they got tired of the slow advancement and the lack of graphics.

      --
      Note to self: Stop putting jokes in my insightful comments so I can get something other than +1 Funny!
    5. Re:Role or Roll playing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Simutronic GMS have always been able to add exp based on good roleplaying and clever in charecter actin. Ive been a customer for about 12 years and have had many "RPG" awards.

  3. A sure sign a character isn't in his proper role.. by TheSHAD0W · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Leeeeeroyyyyyyyyyy Jhhhenkhinsszzzzzz!!!"

  4. Of course a text-based company can. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you've been doing text-based games here and now in the 21st century- then it's fairly obvious you're probably focusing ONLY on the core mechanics of what makes a *game* fun. That's unique and a skill in and of itself.

    3D engines OTOH, judging by the amount of shovelware on Gamespot these days, seem to be pretty much a dime a dozen.

  5. Text based company in a graphical world by MrResistor · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I would think they'd have an advantage. After all, a text based game can't get by on pretty graphics, it has to actually be a great game.

    IANAGame Programmer, but it seems like it would be a lot easier to slap some pretty front end on an existing good game than to create a good game to go with your pretty graphics.

    --
    Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
    1. Re:Text based company in a graphical world by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Read the fucking articles.

      They're not "slapping a GUI" on any MUD. They've spent 3 years developing a toolkit for their GMs to readily edit and update the world.

      My only complaint with their graphics engine is the lack of dramatic shadows. The terrain looks great, but the models look flat and boring.

    2. Re:Text based company in a graphical world by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it really that hard to understand what the parent poster was getting at?

      What he's trying to say is that they most likely approached this as "We're a roleplaying company working on a game engine to satisfy our needs" instead of a "Game engine company looking for a storyline to produce a game".

      Implying that it's better for consumers that they are the former rather then the latter.

    3. Re:Text based company in a graphical world by MrBigInThePants · · Score: 1

      I am a programmer, but not a game programmer.

      I have often wondered (and commented on slashdot on occasion) at why 3D MMOGs had not taken a leaf from the books of those for whom gameplay is, quite literally everything.
      The articles list features (e.g. the roleplaying GM) that I remember seeing 5 years ago in a MUD. I am sure they were around longer than that though.
      While this example us a lot fo work to implement, most other neat features of MUDs are a trivial extension to make 3D.
      One has to wonder why EQ and Co. dropped the ball on this and opted for roll-playing instead of roleplaying?

      I originally assumed the MUD features of today would be the gameplay of MMOG of tomorrow, and look forward to it. Sadly, the industry has decided to pretty much ignore this area while scrambling to "me too".

      During the SWG (Star Wars Galaxies) fiasco, the implementers actually admitted (when asked) that almost no one on the team had any experience with MUDS. (only two had looked, but not much)
      I wonder if they had done a bit of research in this area, even just on the SW MUDS, things at SWG would have been different??

      I truly hope these guys pull off the 3D side without the bugs of most MMOGS. As far as I can see, they have more than enough experience with the gameplay.

      At the very least, the me too from the likes of Sony will be a lot better for it...

    4. Re:Text based company in a graphical world by MrBigInThePants · · Score: 1

      PS: Added the "me too"s before reading the interview.

      AKA: it was me talking, not the parrot...

    5. Re:Text based company in a graphical world by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, adding a frontend to a good game isn't at all easy. It's easier to start the code from scratch. Look at nethack, most players prefer text mode (me included), because graphical front ends either show very little of the screen, or the graphics are so lacking in detail you might as well use text mode. you have to program the game with a 3D front end, if that's what you want, or else you'll lose a lot of details on the way (there are more complicated problems than just this, if you think about it). Oh, and IAAGP.

    6. Re:Text based company in a graphical world by MrResistor · · Score: 1

      Good point.

      But, the design is the hard part. If you already have the design for a good game, scrapping your existing code to start from scratch with a graphical environment shouldn't be that big of a deal.

      --
      Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
    7. Re:Text based company in a graphical world by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The *interface* is part of the design, usually a big one. Again, think of nethack, the only way to make a 3D nethack that looks good (and the 3D helps more than it bothers), would be get a screen measured in feet.
      Heck, not only the looks, just think about key response and such, many good (and bad) games are notorious for they feel of the controls.
      Then, there is art, which is a lot less important in this regard, if you have halo with crappy models and sound, the gameplay doesn't change much, if at all. And art is very expensive (don't get me started on artists...). Same AC as before (sorry, but I don't think names should matter, Carmack's posts deserve +5, but he'd get +5 even if he became a hot grits troll).

    8. Re:Text based company in a graphical world by Jaeph · · Score: 1

      That's like saying photography is easy, but writing the article is hard. Both are forms of communication, and both take real effort to do right.

      -Jeff

      --
      Please learn the difference between a dissenting opinion and a troll before you moderate.
    9. Re:Text based company in a graphical world by MrResistor · · Score: 1

      I didn't say graphics were easy, but it doesn't take much time at a game store to figure out that graphics are obviously easier than coming up with a good use for them.

      --
      Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
  6. In game actors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've always liked the thought that GM's or other employees could take the reigns of NPC's and offer a fun challenge to the player base.

    World of Warcraft did this when the beta ended and everyone loved it. They took hold of some demons and stormed major towns leaving massive devastation in their wakes. I know alot of players would complain and threaten to quit if it happened now (because it would disrupt their happy lives), but I would love another shot at those GM's to defend Stormwind City against them.

    I know Matrix Online does this as well, I'm not sure how that system works and how powerful the GM's are allowed to be.

    I say bring on more games where the player base isn't allowed to just settle down and keep hold of the same expectations about the world they're in.

    1. Re:In game actors by OglinTatas · · Score: 1

      That would actually be a really cool thing. That yellow GM/server text could spam (well, not quite spam, perhaps a little less) all /3 (defense) channels stating that an oracle has revealed doom will fall on stormwind at such and such an hour (say, 8pm on a saturday, sometime when you can reasonably expect a large portion of the server's population to be able to play) so all the L60s can form raid parties and wait to defend their beloved city from the devastation they know will surely come. That would be awesome. Too bad Blizzard doesn't read slashdot at -1. Oh, yeah, and too bad stormwind isn't my beloved city, I play horde on bronzebeard. I hope stormwind burns. (But I'm sure GMs could pick any major city to trounce.)

      --
      More music, fewer hits
  7. Re:A sure sign a character isn't in his proper rol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    "At least I have chicken."

    'WoW - Leeroy's Attack'

    Never played WoW but that's funny.

  8. The Website...in case you needed it. by Marc_Hawke · · Score: 2, Informative

    http://www.play.net/hj/

    --
    --Welcome to the Realm of the Hawke--
  9. Re:A sure sign a character isn't in his proper rol by Neeze · · Score: 1

    It was only a matter of time before this appeared... Sigh.

    --
    I hate Pod 6!
  10. Screenshots Here: by Trespass · · Score: 3, Informative

    http://www.play.net/hj/gallery/

    1. Re:Screenshots Here: by Kwil · · Score: 1

      Heh.
      Is it just me or does providing a link to screen shots of a game where what's being touted is the game play strike a bit of "missing the point"

      --

      That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze

  11. REWARD by eviltypeguy · · Score: 1

    REWARD

    Missing:

    One slightly worn pair of pants, last seen near CorpNews crew at E3.

    Return to the nearest half-naked person matching a CorpNews crew description...

  12. The problem is the "masses" of "massive" by snorklewacker · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You can put all the thought and effort into writing intricate story, drama, and atmosphere into a world, make it as immersive as you can, fantastic or authentic, put life into your NPC's with detail, background, motivations, and aspirations, and create a world to enchant the player ...

    And he will have to share it with thousands of people who use the letter "u" as a pronoun.

    --
    I am no longer wasting my time with slashdot
    1. Re:The problem is the "masses" of "massive" by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      Heh, not to mention the effect of group thinking. When you have a group of people the intelligence of the group is not determined by the smartest person in the group, it's determined by the dumbest. For example, in a recent MxO event players persisted in firing at a "boss", even though it was clear that bullets had no effect, for hours. It actually took the intervention of the live team for players to figure out that certain items dropped by mobs which spawned from the boss could be used as weapons against it. Even then they continued to fire at it. Then, when you think that the intelligence of the group couldn't possibly get any lower, people started to /dance next to the boss and stripped down and ran naked between its legs. Oh yeah, the hell is definitely other players.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    2. Re:The problem is the "masses" of "massive" by WWWWolf · · Score: 1

      Yeah, as everyone knows, MMORPGs are fun until someone else logs in =)

      However, I think actual roleplaying would be possible in MMORPGs if it was just more encouraged. Make clear where OOC chatter belongs, and such.

      As for "u", well, just tell people that you're supposed to properly spell things and make moderators carry big sticks.

      I've seen both things getting done, though they were all in small servers (role-playing stuff working wonderfully in NWN, chat monitoring and spelling policy working wonderfully in lotgd.net) - the problem with MMORPGs would be the need for a lot more staff than these small places needed to make this happen.

    3. Re:The problem is the "masses" of "massive" by bitkari · · Score: 1

      So true!

      The best online RPG experiences I've had have been by and large lacking the "massive".

      Even impromptu Neverwinter Nights matches between strangers have garnered a better experience than the most elaborate WoW guild raid. Invariably, the desire for that next lvlup or that sack'o'lewt drives MMORPG players to abandon the game in favour of the dull strive for precious things, like so many lab rats flicking switches.

      If you really want to make a MMORPG awesome, make it great to play without any gold, xp, levels or Great Capes of Wanton Flourish.

    4. Re:The problem is the "masses" of "massive" by OglinTatas · · Score: 1

      Roleplaying is possible even among massive populations of kiddie "hardcore" gamers. You just have to be patient, get into a lot of different groups. Note how you interact with them. Put the lamerz who use terms like 14m3Rz (or who act like jerks*) on your ignore list, put the mature players who play a character well on your list of friends. If there is a guild with a lot of your online friends in it, join that one, or start one with those on your friends list. Once you join or start your guild, remember to keep inviting new people to your group so you can add them to your friends or ignore list.

      *some people really are just jerks, but be patient will low level characters who are not playing well, such as a tank who can't tank, or the mage who AoEs a bunch of mobs 2 levels up, or the healer who's always at the front of the fray. They may either be new to the game, or the genre, and you have the opportunity to gently set them straight, or they may be playing an unfamiliar alt, and are otherwise a decent roll player--so judge accordingly.

      --
      More music, fewer hits
    5. Re:The problem is the "masses" of "massive" by Justinian+II · · Score: 1

      Simutronics (and I, actually, since I used to be a GM for them) already have experience with this. When Gemstone and Dragonrealms were pretty much exclusively on GEnie, a "big crowd" would have been 50 people in the game at once. Then AOL joined. BOOM, all of a sudden you had thousands of clueless, insane, and downright antisocial newbies wandering around screwing everything up. The GEnie players were still paying BY THE HOUR (and were thus mostly adults) while AOL newbies were kids on flate rate plans paid for by mommy and daddy. God, how we hated the the little bastards. Hated. HATED. Ahem, sorry.

      Anyway, Simutronics handled that transition about as well as could be expected. This transition will be on the same order of magnitude one expects

      Incidentally, a "GM" in a Simutronics game is not like a GM in Everquest who does customer support, etc. GMs in Simutronics game did that... but also created the game world, the combat systems, the magic systems, and everything else. Oh, and most of us were VOLUNTEERS who were paid essentially diddly squat for 30-90 hour weeks. Yes, Simutronics games at least used to be created in large part by volunteers. I don't know how it is handled now.

  13. Yes, gameplay is everything by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

    I suspect you'll be proved right. I've played many games with flashy graphics and sound effects and given up halfway through. The best games, invariably, are those that require real strategy and/or provide real plot development.

    Graphics and sound effects can make or break a game with that kind of gameplay, but nothing can make a game without it.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  14. Clever solutions... by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 1

    Can the GMs award extra experience for clever solutions?

    You mean like this?

  15. Realism vs. Fun..ism by RaisinBread · · Score: 2, Interesting

    From one review:

    "For example, you may dress as a pirate, a knight in shining armor or any other of the amazing combinations they offer. The frilly pirate shirt will act just as well as the armor for protection. Obviously, this sacrifices realism, but it ensures that players get to look how they want and still effectively play the game."

    Somehow I think this thinking is a little flawed, especially if there is any sort of PVP... which isn't always 'fun.' For example, I want to look like a kick-butt world-owning mega warrior when I'm really a level nothing mage. Real is sometimes better, especially when real = believable.

    On the other hand, it really stinks to build up your super awesome frilly-pirate-shirt wearing character, only to have him permantly eliminated by the first baddie he happens to fall into. (which is probably more real)

    I think that the storytelling abilities text-based players have will aid this company but their who-cares-what-it-looks-like attitude probably comes from the same place.

    There's got to be a better balance, at least for me...

    1. Re:Realism vs. Fun..ism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think that "who-cares-what-it-looks-like attitude" accurately captures the attitude.

      I think "we-care-what-you-want-to-look-like-and-don't-want -an-army-of-dress-alike-drones-running-around" might better describe the intent behind this design.

    2. Re:Realism vs. Fun..ism by simu-melissa · · Score: 1

      That's exactly right -- the intent is to preserve the feel of a fantasy hero. We don't play games to experience real life, after all. We get plenty of that in the real world. In terms of PvP, you'll be able to assess another player's capabilities through alternate means other than appearance of armor.

    3. Re:Realism vs. Fun..ism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you want PvP or Carebear PvP? Todays crop of PvP is just carebear crap. You can tell peoples level before you ever enter the fight. I like the idea of not knowing for sure what you are about to go up against in a PvP setting. Zena kicked butt wearing nothing more than a leather thong! You think she should have had on full plate gear instead?

  16. You can when you charge upwards of $50/month by Original+Buddha · · Score: 1

    No that wasn't a typo. I believe the base price is around $10/month, Premium $25/month and the Platinum service is $49.95. At that price you're pretty much guaranteed that you'll only be playing with mature adults and having played Dragon Realms for a few years with an ex girlfriend it was really rare to encounter a problem that actually required a GM.

    http://www.play.net/dr/platinum/

    1. Re:You can when you charge upwards of $50/month by Justinian+II · · Score: 1

      Hah! I remember Gemstone III at $6/hour. $25/hour during prime time (daytime). Yes, $25/hour. No, I didn't play during prime time. But other people did/ Mumble. Kids today with their "$50 a month is too high!". You should have seen some of the bills people used to rack up in Simutronics games. $600/month would be considered average.

  17. What's so innovative? by timford · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Maybe I'm missing something... what is so revolutionary and innovative about this game? What I've read about it offers almost no details about what makes the game so special. Instead all we get is the same vague promises spewed whenever ANY new MMORPG comes out. Amazing character creation, intriguing quests and adventures, wonderful GM-run NPC events, etc. Haven't we all heard it all before? I want some details before I buy into the usual hype.

    1. Re:What's so innovative? by Nimrook · · Score: 1

      If you want to know what this game is going to be like then go to play.net and sign up for a free 30 day trial of either Gemstone or Dragonrealms. Basically this game is going to be a graphics based version of the formentioned games. Simtronics has won gaming awards in the past including Computer Gaming World's online game of the year so they do know how to put a great game together. My personal experience with their MUD's tells me that this game will be much better than any other MMORPG out there. When they say they're going to put the emphasis on "roleplaying" I believe them because they have a history of that with their current games. What you may not have heard is that there will be several different types of servers. If you are heavy in to roleplaying and you want to make sure that everyone else in your server is too then you can go to a RPG server. No matter how hard they try to keep everyone in character all the time, they know that isn't possible so for those that do want to play this game without the emphasis on roleplaying, there will be out of character servers. If you don't want PvP then you can chose a non-PvP server. I think what is going to set this game apart from the others is the heavy involvement of the game masters. The GM's will be involved with so much within the game that it will blow your mind. They will be adding content to the game all the time and if I read it correctly then they'll be able to do so without any need to buy expansion disks. Also, the best thing about their MUD's is the fact that the GM's are always running storylines, i.e. controlling bosses and other creatures, etc. A lot of the story is based on the actual interaction between the GM controlled characters and the player characters. I don't know how much of that is going to be included in HJ but it wouldn't surprise me to see GM's randomly creating enemy armies and invading friendly towns every now and then just for the heck of it. I can understand how someone who hasn't played any of their games can be skeptical of this but as someone that has played their games, I can assure you that once this game comes out, your skepticism will be put to rest. Simtronics isn't the new kid on the block just talking a good game. They're one of the originators of online gameplay and they have a long history of getting it right.

    2. Re:What's so innovative? by Nimrook · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry about that big wall of text. I messed up and submitted it as an HTML format instead of a plain old text format.

  18. Maybe... by Durinthal · · Score: 1

    I'm a long-time player of another of Simu's games (6 years in DragonRealms), and I think that they have a good chance if they don't alienate their customers (one example: thieves in DR have seen, at most, two significant developments in the past three years).

    Subscription costs on-par with other MMOs would be a good start (for those unaware: in their current games it's $15/mo for a single character slot [there's only one server], $3/mo per extra character slot, or 10 slots for "premium" accounts which are $35/mo and include other minor benefits)

    They can stream in content updates, including completely new systems, and have great live events at times. If they can carry everything that made DragonRealms fun into this new game, they have a chance.

  19. Re:A sure sign a character isn't in his proper rol by passthecrackpipe · · Score: 1

    come on Leroy - stop complaining - after all you only have yourself to blame.....

    --
    People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.
  20. Wake Me Up... by Shihar · · Score: 1, Troll

    ...when someone figures out what that R stands for in RPG.

    I'm sorry, but this doesn't sound even a little bit innovative. Perhaps I am a slow reader, but where in that entire article did it mention a new idea that isn't just a refinement of an old one? As far as I can see, this is just World of Warcraft part 2. Great, so they have refined the boring MMORPG formula a little more and have made that same shitty gameplay more refined. If you strip down the cosmetics, the game is same boring shit that we have dealt with since Everquest. It is a leveling / group semi-turn based combat game. Yawn.

    You know that cool part in that cyberpunk book when they are playing that RPG on their computer? Yeah... just wake me up when we get there. Or, at the very least, wake me up when someone grows enough balls to and break the mold a little.

    As far as MMORPGs are concerned, we are living in the world of Wolfenstien 3D. One guy got it right, now roughly a thousand other companies have pig piled on with their own game set in different settings with marginally improving graphics and marginally refined game play. What the gutless MMORPG makers seem to not realize is that I am waiting four player Doom death match.

    Wake me up when an MMORPG makers grows a spine. Until then, someone else can sit around and count the failures.

    1. Re:Wake Me Up... by Nimrook · · Score: 1

      They've released maybe 10% of what's going to be in the game, if that. If you've read the interviews they really don't want to reveal everything all at once. The game is still in development and probably won't come out until sometime next year. If they told you everything now then your interest would be gone by the time the game came out. Now isn't the right time to release all the "good stuff" about the game. They'll wait until closer to the release date to really "hype the game up."

      If you've ever played any of Simtronics's current games then you'd already know that this is going to be a great game. But for those that haven't, and are only accustomed to the current MMORPG's, then you really have no idea of how great this game is going to be. Simu is one of the innovaters in "Roleplaying" games and they've won gaming awards before so they really do know how to put together a true "roleplaying" game. They aren't the new kid on the block just talking a great game. They have a history of success.

    2. Re:Wake Me Up... by Shihar · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      HJ has not expressed some great new concept that is going to set it apart from all the other MMORPGs not because they are good company and don't want to hype. They have not done it because they don't have it. They will merrily tell you about the generic crap and promise it will be better (see interview), but they are certainly not holding back some great grand new style of gameplay that will set it apart from everyone else. Will there be features they unveil? Absolutely. Will some of those features maybe even be seen for the first time in HJ? I don't doubt it. Is this going to be some revolution in gameplay? Hell no. Simtronics is out to cash in. They are not aiming for a nitch market or taking a bigger risk then they already have.

      I could certainly be wrong, but I sure as hell wont waste my time getting excited about a game that has offered nothing more then the promise of generic MMORPG gameplay further refined and their name. The fan boys can drool in anticipation before they see any proof that this game has any substance. I'll just be a crotchety old bastard and smugly wait to say I told you so.

    3. Re:Wake Me Up... by Nimrook · · Score: 1

      Simu wouldn't even waste their time with this game if it wasn't going to be innovative. They were going to release a game with this same title a few years ago but scrapped the plan and started over because they knew it wouldn't work. Now they've come back with something that they know will be innovative. If Simu wanted to "cash in" as you say, then they would have done so a few years ago when there weren't so many MMORPG's out there. This project has been in the works for 3 years now. It isn't something they just threw together overnight. What they're trying to do is take everything that's made their MUD's successful and incorporate that into a MMORPG along with some never before seen stuff. Even their old stuff is better than what's in most MMORPG's. I've had my good share of MMORPG experiences and none of the games that I've played have come close giving me the enjoyment that Gemstone has. Who knows. This might not be the best game in the genre but I guarentee that it will be one of the best. It won't be like a lot of the crap you see out there now.

      If you expect this to be like Final Fantasy or Everquest or WoW then you will be greatly mistaken. Simu has a long history, 18 years in fact, of getting it right. They wouldn't be around this long if they hadn't.

    4. Re:Wake Me Up... by Shihar · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I hate to burst your bubble, but as a long time MUD player I know the record. I want to see Gemstone 3 with graphics roughly about as badly as I want to see someone make a sequal to Everquest... oh ... shit.

      Maybe you and I were playing different games here, but I am pretty damned sure that their MUDs had the same hack and slash game play as nearly every other MUD out there. MUDs were not the holy grail of gaming. There were some great ones that turned the boring hack and slash crap on its head. ArmageddonMUD and Harshlands come to mind. Gemstone doesn't. The only thing that made their MUDs special was the fact that they got them on AOL instead of forcing people to go through Telnet, as a result, they had a massive (compartivly) population. That is the only thing that made those MUDs unique.

      "What they're trying to do is take everything that's made their MUD's successful..."

      Everything that made their MUD's successful? You mean they putting it on AOL?

      "...and incorporate that into a MMORPG along with some never before seen stuff."

      So they are going to incorporated their generic hack and slash MUD gameplay and some never before seen "stuff" (whatever "stuff" might mean) to make the most kick ass MMORPG ever. Right. Out of the block they have not bothered to show how they are going to do more interesting in terms of gameplay then the generic crap already out there. Infact, in the interview they go ahead and tell how they are going to have all that shitty generic gameplay but BETTER! Great.

      MMORPG are going through terrible stagnation. We have the ability hool up a few thousand people into the same massive world, and what has been done with this power? We make friggin' glorified Diablo clones. Someone poke me a developer grows a pair and tries something innovative and original.

    5. Re:Wake Me Up... by Nimrook · · Score: 1

      Have you read about the awards they got for their showing at E3? MMORPG's best in show. GamersInfo.net's Editor's Choice award. Not to mention great reviews by several other sites after seeing the game at E3. That stuff doesn't happen by accident and it doesn't happen if the game isn't any good. Maybe the best review that I've seen so far is at http://www.corpnews.com/node/36.

      I'm guessing that you've had a bad experience with MMORPG's. Hey, it happens. There isn't a perfect game out there and there will be always someone that isn't satisfied. I doubt that there's a game out there that has 100% customer satisfaction. All I can say from my experience with Simtronics games that when someone has a problem they do listen. They obviously won't take care of every complaint because some you just can't take care of. You can't please everyone all of the time. If they change one thing to make one person happy then someone else will be upset. That's just the way that it is.

      So while you may not like what you've seen about HJ, that doesn't mean that everyone else feels the same way. It's not just the fanboys that are excited about this, lot's of other people are excited as well, including plenty of people that were skeptical at first. Just based on what I've seen and read about this game, I feel like it's already better than most of the MMORPG's out there.

      Why don't you tell us what you like and don't like about current MMORPG's and what you'd like to see in future games. What are you playing right now? You've been critical of HJ but I don't think I've heard you mention what you WOULD like to see.

    6. Re:Wake Me Up... by Shihar · · Score: 1

      Apparently we are arguing the same thing. I have read all the reviews. I see a refined traditional MMORPG. You read the reviews and see a refined traditional MMORPG. The difference between you and me, is that I see another game obsessed with tactical combat and levels as squandering the potential of dragging together a few thousand people into an online world.

      Think of your wet dream game far into the future with full VR suits. Is it a game where you log in, go to a dungeon, and hunt down NPCs for experience and loot? If it is, great. The future is here for you. You have just described the fundamental gameplay of every single MMORPG with the possible exception of UO.

      I on the other hand picture a living and breathing game world where you don't arbitrarily go out and hunt things down for l00t and experience. Maybe you do go and hunt things down, but it isn't in some static dungeon. Maybe a horde of undead move in and slowly work their way torwards your home city. Instead of respawning they kill and convert other NPCs on their way towards your city to join the army. If you kill one, it doesn't respawn. When you launch a raid, you actually launch a true raid. You sneak into one of their camps, kill a few, then run like hell before they mount gather the forces to crush you. When they get to the city walls, they lay siege. If the people of the city fail to defend the city, it gets burned to the ground and the army moves on bigger and more powerful. Hell, it might very well end up where in this little fantasy game you can actually loose. The game world might be entirely overrun with undead and all pockets of resistance are crushed, and the game gets reset.

      My point? These games are dead static dungeons. Even the most dynamic MMORPGs to date could barely be called dynamic, and they sure as hell couldn't be called living and breathing worlds. The story lines are pathetic and preplanned. The ability of players to actually shape the world is limited to creating a story that involves a bunch of high levels fighting into a zone and killing a boss monster.

      MMORPGs need to grow up and grow some balls. The Diablo gameplay is getting boring. Someone needs to make an effort to break out of this mold, not recast it with improvements. HJ by all accounts is traditional MMORPG with cool new features. The key word is 'features'. Nothing fundamental has changed.

      So, yes, HJ might very well be the best MMORPG ever created. It might be the most fun one out there, but with the current crop of gutless MMORPGs, that isn't saying much.

    7. Re:Wake Me Up... by Nimrook · · Score: 1

      I hear what you're saying. Some of what you're talking about does occur in Gemstone. They run live event storylines and sometimes a town(Wheinemer's Landing or however you spell it, comes to mind) will get burned down. The player characters will join together sometimes with a GM controlled NPC, to take out the leader of the evil forces. And when that leader is dead, he's dead for good. It used to be that there was permadeath in Gemstone for player characters. I don't remember why exactly they got rid of that, probably because it wasn't that popular. They even ran a storyline where player characters debated eachother to see which one of them would become mayor of the Landing. I don't remember exactly how it ended, I just know that a GM controlled NPC came in and killed them all and none of them became mayor. There are also player run stores now.

      So there are a lot of events that you're referring to in their text based games. It's my understanding, and I could be wrong, but I believe that their goal is to do that in Hero's Journey too. Probably not to the extent that it happens in their text based games but certainly there will be live events in HJ. Of course there will be standard quests. If there is one complaint about live events it's that not everyone gets to fully participate in them and that leads to people feeling left out. It happens in their text based games where the players are more concerned with role play than just hack and slash, so if it happens there then it will happen in a graphics game where you have more hack and slash players than role players. Having standard quests allows everyone to say, "Hey, I was the one that destroyed that bridge and prevented the enemy army from crossing over and raiding our city." Is that unrealistic? Sure but this isn't a reality game, it's a fantasy game.

      And just remember. There are a lot of companies that didn't get their MMOPRG's right the first time. WoW was popular when it came out but it still wasn't that great of a game. Guild Wars is their second attempt at an MMORPG and it's much better than WoW. FFXI sucks IMO and I'm not sure what SE's next one, Front Mission Online, is going to be like, but I gotta believe that it's going to be better than FFXI. It sure can't be any worse. I think Simtronics should be given a lot of credit for turning out this type of effort in their first attempt. And with the tools that they're using to make this game, they'll be able to add and update stuff on the fly. No need to create an expansion. Their tools should also allow them to do what other MMORPG's can't, or won't, which is burn down villages and stuff like that.

      Unfortunately I don't expect it to be exactly the type of game that you are hoping for. I feel like we're in the minority when it comes to what all we want. The fact is that most players of these graphics games are kids that are just into hack and slash and that's who these companies target when they make these games. Gemstone has maybe 4-5000 people in their lone server while there are millions of people in the graphics RPG's. If there were more people like us then I think the population in text based games would be higher.

      If Hero's Journey can attract enough "role players" then maybe the game will end up being what we would like it to be. But my guess is that there will still be plenty of hack and slash players so Simu will want to take the "lets make it something for everyone" type of game. What I'm hoping for is that the GM's will focus most of their attention on the role playing servers and that way those servers can be the "living, breathing" worlds that we'd like to see and the other servers can be the hack and slash servers that those players want to see.

  21. Or maybe not.... by Liquidrage · · Score: 0

    The difference between Hero's Journey and any other modern MMO is in Simutronics' most prized possessions: its GMs. Given a powerful suite of tools, these creative geniuses are given license to alter the game world in any way they choose to tell a tale.

    OK, so the difference is a promise to use GM's to make dynamic content and events? Like I haven't heard that before.

    It's all fun and games till the GM takes control of a level 12 troll to attack some lowbie village where the lowbies would love to band together to fight back. Oh, but then some level 50 dude running through the area sees it and nukes it hoping it has phat lewts.

    Or they spawn some massive event and half the people complain because it totally screwed up their xp'ing for the night.

    I don't know the full details. Hell, I couldn't find the full details. But I'm not giddy over promises of GM's doing great things. Every game promises that and yet you can barely even find a GM to help with a show-stopping bug let along hope one has the free time to be the wonderfull DM-esque content creator.

    1. Re:Or maybe not.... by Nimrook · · Score: 1

      Only Simtronics has a history of coming through with their promises. If you've played any of their current games then you would know this but you haven't so you really aren't speaking with any knowledge. I am. Simtronics has won several online gaming awards and it's because of their great GM interaction that they have. Simu isn't making promises, they're stating fact. Trust me, I know. I've played their flagship game Gemstone and their GM interaction is unmatched in any MMORPG out there. When this game comes out, every skeptic will be pleasantly surprised with how well the GM interaction in this game is.

    2. Re:Or maybe not.... by Liquidrage · · Score: 1

      Everyone is "different". Everyone has a justification.
      No one has done it yet.

      Obviously you aren't speaking with any knowledge of MMORPGs. Don't tell me you are. You aren't. You might have played a ton of 'em. You might have been a DM for some piddly-esque crap mud. I don't care.

      It isn't that they wouldn't want to. It's that these things cost money. These things create issues themselves. These things take resources.

      Every fucking MMORPG that has come out has promised this shit and failed. And your little "you don't know what you're talking about" routine coupled with the "this time it's different" can go take a flying leap. Call me a troll, call me mean, call me ignorant. It still doesn't change the fact that every MMORPG has promised this crap and not delivered. And the way this story is done is not making out Hero's Journey to be another little Gemstone. Their past isn't going to help them come through on this promise any more then Mythic's did.

      If I had a nickle for every person that used that same line you're using for an MMORPG that didn't deliver this exact promise, I'd have well over a dollar by now.

  22. Permadeath by OglinTatas · · Score: 1

    from the gamespy article: "As an end result of such heavy focus on interactive storytelling, the player becomes attached to his or her character like never before--they'll want to keep exploring the constantly changing, continually evolving world and keep forging their character's unique story."

    This would be a perfect opportunity to implement a permadeath, which for some reason people keep demanding as an essential element in a good online RPG.

    Personally, I'm of the opinion that the permadeath hardcore gamers always have the option to delete their own characters, and they should just leave the rest of us alone.

    --
    More music, fewer hits
  23. Video of the E3 Hero's Journey Demo by navarredr · · Score: 1

    Hero's Journey Video I played Simutronics' DragonRealms for 8+ years and have since played most every major MMORPG to date. DragonRealms still holds the the crown for the best, most immersive, fun game I have ever played. This game has the potential to be the best mmorpg ever. I can't wait to play. If not for their high (too high) monthly charges for their existing games, I would still be playing.

  24. Looks great, except... by robson · · Score: 1

    ...why resort to the same D&D-style fantasy world again? In a packed market, it seems to me the last thing you'd want is to feature the same setting as the most popular MMOs out there.

    I see some nice steampunky elements in their screenshots... I wish they'd run with that rather than resorting to the same old elves and druids and rogues and blech.

    1. Re:Looks great, except... by Nimrook · · Score: 1

      Because that is Simu's trademark. If you know anything about Simu then you would know that they've been around since 1987. One of their games, Gemstone, was the game they launched with at that time. The world of Elanthia, the world that Hero's Journey is based in, is the same world used in Gemstone. That's what they've gone with for a long time and that's what's made them successful. Everyone wants to talk about Dungeons and Dragons but Simu and Gemstone were just as big in pioneering online gameplay, at least when it comes to RPGs. They've chosen to go with the traditional fantasy world because that's what they've been doing for 18 years now. They aren't copycats. They're the people that others are copying off of.

  25. Am I too late to post on this? by Cryshal · · Score: 1

    How many of you posters have read the most recent interview about Hero's Journey on RPG Vault? I'm just wondering if you would have the same views then.