Magnitudes more people play WoW than Everquest. EQ was a fringe element to most people, but WoW has real relevance to a lot of folks, because so many "normal people" play it. By that, I mean people whose social settings don't revolve a great deal around the people they play games with (definitely not including myself in that one, eh?)
I must be thinking of the other convention center in Louisville (wtf?).
Anyway, I guess you missed the point where I said it was a great place because there was generally a lot of space, which is far more important to this sort of event than the nightlife. If we're talking about a different location, which I find bizarre but whatever, then all bets are off.
I also think you missed the demographic of these events. Bar/club hopping is great, but a lot of people at this thing are probably going ot be 18-21, or in clans/teams that have players who are 18-21. Museums? Theatres? Urm... we're on the same page here, right?
Louisville, Kentucky has been the home to the Million Man Lan for several years running, and the facilities at their convention center are huge. It seems like an odd place, but having been to both the MML and to events in the midst of San Francisco, it's a lot easier to handle parking, lodging, and space issues in rural areas like KY, so it's not a bad choice. Just hope nobody gets wanderlust and wants to go exploring, because there's not a whole lot to see outside of the convention center.
Except that one of the most succesful raiding guilds in the game, Elitist Jerks, came almost entirely from Something Awful. Many other guilds were together from other games, and many were formed by groups of friends. You can't disassociate that easily - most guilds are together for reasons that aren't related to WoW.
I had this brilliant rant in my head before I sat down to post a comment, and then I come here to find out you stole it from me. Jerk!:(
Ultimately I think this is a bunch of sniveling hand-wringing. To borrow from the article:
Judging the true extent of this impact is tricky, especially when none of the publishers contacted were willing to name specific titles being affected. (emphasis added)
Gosh, you mean they're having a hard-time quantifying this (phantom) effect?
The following from a Sony spokesman:
However, if it continues to grow, it could potentially starve us of the funds necessary for research and development, and therefore, developers will be less willing to take a risk on new and genre-diversifying titles. It's this creative diversity that makes the games industry so popular, and without sustained funding from new software sales, this could be at risk.
Somebody may have failed either economics or basic literacy, because what I'm getting from this is that Sony thinks it is entitled to its place in the market, and that if they fail to produce quality products, that it's the consumer's problem, not their own. Did someone else get a better look at that spin, or am I dead-on here?
For that matter, I'm not sure they don't have the whole relationship backwards anyway - if game sales are suffering, what are the chances that it's because we don't really want to buy Petting Zoo Tycoon, or whatever the next insipid sequel is? The music industry already tried the "Blame your Customer", and even got the DMCA passed to make it easier, but that effort eventually failed. Go ahead, Acme Video Game Company, use that as your company line next time your sales plummet. It might even work for a couple of quarters. I guess we'll see what happens after that, though.
Let me save people some time and sum up a few common replies to this story:
1) "Haha, people on the Internet can't spell. This has nothing to do with the story, but it's funny. Haha. +1 funny please? Thanks!"
2) "Clearly any decision that can seperate people based on where they're from is racist. I do not play WoW, and I do not understand the mechanics of a multi-player game."
3) "You need to work in a group in order to accomplish goals in WoW. You also do not want to spend 2-3 hours in a dungeon working for an item that only drops 10% of the time, only to have some gold farmer ninja-loot the item, which is an all-too-common occurrence. This is not racism, it is not xenophobia, it is not anti-culturalism. This is something between common sense and saving yourself a boatload of time. People play this video game to have fun, not to practice for their eventual jobs in the Peace Corps."
This mouse is geared towards hardcore FPS gamers, and it has features that a hardcore FPS gamer would presumably like/appreciate, like a design that isn't supposed to hurt your wrist after several consecutive hours of gaming (helps avoid later carpal tunnel too, supposedly), and a design that lets you easily tweak your sensitivity to "just right" - which is something you have to do often at tournaments, when you're playing on a different machine every time. The variable weights are not unique to this mouse, but having it is better than not. Again, it's not supposed to necessarily make you better, it's supposed to make it easier to play longer and more to your own liking. I don't see why people have this much trouble understanding it.
It never fails to astound me just how little paladins seem to recognize that their strength lies in the fact that they are a healer who is virtually impossible to kill. Being that I play a priest, the relevance of this combination of strengths is pretty goddamn distinct, but whatever. As long as paladins are on "the other team", I'll enjoy the fruits of their misguided mental labors.
Yes, all designers are game players, but all game players are not designers.
And designers are at their best when they think in terms of someone who plays a game. Regardless of who this Bill of Rights speaks to (and if it's truly only relevant from third party devs to publishers - why is it here? For that matter, it would seem a poor job by Slashdot to not be more verbose about such an essential caveat), if a designer doesn't like to play games, they will make a poor designer. If there were no correlation between the requirements of proper game design and the players of the game itself, then this would not hold true.
I disagree with the statement that "Game Designers should be considered the foremost authority on their craft."
I think the foremost authority on good game design lies in the hands of the people who play it. Like it or not, game designers aren't being paid to make art, they're being paid to make entertainment. If they make art in the process, sobeit, and that's great (people, including myself, appreciate these things), but I'm not paying them to make some elegant design, or the best graphics engine ever, or performance-hog special effects, or voice acting from Alec Baldwin. I'm paying them to make a game that is fun. I'd like Civilization 4 just as much without Leonard Nimoy (or someone who sounds just like him) reading the Civopedia entries in-game.
I try to dress nicely, though jeans and t-shirts qualifies. Still, this article smacks of ulterior motives.
Of course, those few of you who have decided to jerk your knee in my direction as a software person who *does* occasionally dress up, can go **** yourselves.
The only thing that does bother me is when somebody smells, but that can often have less to do with your clothes and more with your grooming tendencies.
Of course, minivans are generally safer than SUVs, too, and still use less gas. People buy SUVs because they *feel* safer, not because they *are* safer.
Good for you, and welcome to the minority, but frankly I don't think anyone really cares. If the system and company in question (Blizzard) had no credibility, nobody else would do it either. Your unilateral refusal to ever provide a CC# for a "free trial" is nothing more than the opposite side of the spectrum from someone else's unfettered willingness to provide a CC# for a "free trial" at every porn site they bump up against.
We are NOT full to capacity, please feel free to participate.
irc.freenode.net #interdictor
There are several sub-channels, such as #interdictor-chat for discussion/dialogue, #interdictor-scanner for a transcript of the radio scanner, etc.
We are also trying to track any news and information we can find to provide a summarized glimpse of the events as they happen. We're avoiding things that are already available through major news outlets, but any first-hand accounts, independent news sources, eye-witness information, international news, etc. (anything you couldn't find through, say, Fox News or MSNBC), please don't hesitate to help out.
I've played WoW for a long time, so bear with me on this. I think companies like IGE that support gold/item-farming actually enhance the overall community.
When in-demand goods are controlled by the hardcore players - the people who have the most invested in the game's community, the prices can easily fluctuate based on who wants whatever item. If I am one of only 3 people on a server who can craft an item, anyone in my guild can generally get the item at cost, but people in guilds I'm not particularly fond of might have to pay a very large premium. IGE benefits the casual gamer; aside from offering gold to everyone at the same cost, they are never subject to the fluctuations of in-game politicking.
Anyone who's played an MMO knows that they are a harvesting ground for tempest-in-a-teacup drama bombs. These result in rapidly shifting allegiances, favors and favorites, and unpredictable shifts in power. If the economy were solely in the hands of these same people who can't figure out who they're inviting to their tea party from one week to the next, it would be very exclusionary to the casual gamer, who hasn't the time, desire, or immersion required to get involved or heavily invested in any specific quasi-faction.
While hardcore players like myself tend to get frustrated that these newbie players can get this stuff with nothing more than a quick jaunt over to ebay, I don't generally realize that I'm not paying money for these items I have. World of Warcraft, at least, has several items that can only be obtained through raiding; a 40-man adventure into the Molten Core, or a trip to kill Onyxia. You can't buy these items because they bind to the character that loots them.
Most adults my age, give or take, have played video games, or decided early on they don't like them. Your parents? Well, I don't know your parents, and I'm sorry. I suspect if you got them playing something like Katamari Damacy, they would become familiar with the idea of moving around in 3D, and would have a far easier time learning their next 3D game. These games have progressively more difficult (or more easy, depending which way you walk the spectrum) gameplay modes that put increasingly less pressure on the individual to acclimate themselves to the movement and controls - use them. Katamari Damacy is a ridiculously easy game to pass, but if you really want to unlock things, it gets very challenging.
Who says you have to "move up" to Doom 3, anyway? Doom 3 isn't marketed towards your dad, it wasn't MADE for your dad. Are you suggesting every game should be playable by your dad, right out of the box? I've played 3D games for *years*. I spent the better part of the last 10 years playing them competitively, including competition in high-profile LAN tournaments like Quakecon, but if you stick me in front of a Flight Sim, I'm a drooling idiot. Not every game is going to be perfect for every gamer, and I'm sorry, but if you dad doesn't like the "duck and crawl" aspect of Doom 3, he's probably not going to like the absurdly fast-paced twitch-oriented gameplay required to progress at the higher levels, either.
Maybe fast-paced FPS games aren't your dad's style, but that's not the fault of the industry. Show him some of the great puzzle games out there. Show him the Sims, or the Sims Online.
As far as MMOs being concepts you're supposed to know, and reflexes you're supposed to have - How? Seriously, how? Sure, things like strength, agility, intelligence, the 'character' building blocks, tend to have similarities from game to game, but you don't have to have spent a long time playing video games that strength makes you strong. You don't need a 3-day course to teach you that 'hit points represent your health, and the lower they go, the closer you are to death'.
You can't blame genres for your dad not liking them. You can blame yourself for expecting him to like them, maybe. Or you can just accept that you tried to introduce him to advanced games without going through any of the easier ones that I've mentioned about 3 times now.
If you absolutely insist on forcing your round dad into the square FPS genre, then maybe you should try something like Giants: Citizen Kabuto. It's an older game, but it starts out at a very slow pace. Maybe one of the Thief games, as well, since they focus more on movement within your environment - a simple tenet that these other games take for granted. Have him try some of the simpler 3d RPG games. Have him try an RTS. Have him try Sim City, or any of the Civilization/Alpha Centauri series (a great series of games I'd recommend for ANYONE, with a VERY broad range of difficulties suitable for just about any player - they actually taught part of a history course at my college through Civ 2).
These games are out there, seriously. I think I've more than made my case, and I'm done with this discussion now.
If you want simple games, there's Mario Party and all of its permutations, there's Katamari Damacy, there's the Sims, etc. For kids there's absolute TONS of games, both recreational and educational, out there. Head to Best Buy and take a look sometime, seriously.
Not everybody comes to computer gaming and starts trying to play Doom III right off the bat, and your entire tone has assumed that they do, which is just silly.
Also consider that the average hand-eye coordination of the general populace has probably increased dramatically over the last two decades. Even adults who don't play video games learn to operate with a mouse and keyboard; if not for work then as some small part of their own recreational time.
Sorry, no, my original question still stands. Is there any evidence to the claim in this article, or is it purely taken off of some random guy's observation as he walked into a video game store decked out in BIG FLASHY SIGNS for all the LATEST ACTION TITLES, etc. etc. I'd be willing to bet those signs are so BIG AND FLASHY AND OVERWHELMING is because the games they're trying to sell are in a very competitive market, and they have to be in order to get anyone's attention.
You can "learn" any game pretty quickly, but the act of mastering it is what constitutes a "learning curve". Go and Chess have large "learning curves". Chess, at least, is frequently learned from a very young age, and mastered over a lifetime.
It sounds like what people are lamenting is the lack of simple games that they associate with their childhood. Part of the reason those games were simple is because they had to be. However, just because the games were simple to learn did not make them simple to master. It took most of the top Quake 1/2/3 players a couple of years to reach the peak of their game, and this is on a worldwide level.
How much time does it take to become a Grand Master in chess? Do we see people lamenting the dearth of good hop-skotch resources for kids these days?
Is there any quantification for this or is it simply one random dude's anecdotal evidence? Sorry, but I don't trust gaming "journalists" to know d!ck-all about gaming beyond their own noses.
Slashdot Mirror
Magnitudes more people play WoW than Everquest. EQ was a fringe element to most people, but WoW has real relevance to a lot of folks, because so many "normal people" play it. By that, I mean people whose social settings don't revolve a great deal around the people they play games with (definitely not including myself in that one, eh?)
I must be thinking of the other convention center in Louisville (wtf?).
Anyway, I guess you missed the point where I said it was a great place because there was generally a lot of space, which is far more important to this sort of event than the nightlife. If we're talking about a different location, which I find bizarre but whatever, then all bets are off.
I also think you missed the demographic of these events. Bar/club hopping is great, but a lot of people at this thing are probably going ot be 18-21, or in clans/teams that have players who are 18-21. Museums? Theatres? Urm... we're on the same page here, right?
Louisville, Kentucky has been the home to the Million Man Lan for several years running, and the facilities at their convention center are huge. It seems like an odd place, but having been to both the MML and to events in the midst of San Francisco, it's a lot easier to handle parking, lodging, and space issues in rural areas like KY, so it's not a bad choice. Just hope nobody gets wanderlust and wants to go exploring, because there's not a whole lot to see outside of the convention center.
Except that one of the most succesful raiding guilds in the game, Elitist Jerks, came almost entirely from Something Awful. Many other guilds were together from other games, and many were formed by groups of friends. You can't disassociate that easily - most guilds are together for reasons that aren't related to WoW.
Ultimately I think this is a bunch of sniveling hand-wringing. To borrow from the article:
Gosh, you mean they're having a hard-time quantifying this (phantom) effect?
The following from a Sony spokesman:
Somebody may have failed either economics or basic literacy, because what I'm getting from this is that Sony thinks it is entitled to its place in the market, and that if they fail to produce quality products, that it's the consumer's problem, not their own. Did someone else get a better look at that spin, or am I dead-on here?
For that matter, I'm not sure they don't have the whole relationship backwards anyway - if game sales are suffering, what are the chances that it's because we don't really want to buy Petting Zoo Tycoon, or whatever the next insipid sequel is? The music industry already tried the "Blame your Customer", and even got the DMCA passed to make it easier, but that effort eventually failed. Go ahead, Acme Video Game Company, use that as your company line next time your sales plummet. It might even work for a couple of quarters. I guess we'll see what happens after that, though.
Let me save people some time and sum up a few common replies to this story:
1) "Haha, people on the Internet can't spell. This has nothing to do with the story, but it's funny. Haha. +1 funny please? Thanks!"
2) "Clearly any decision that can seperate people based on where they're from is racist. I do not play WoW, and I do not understand the mechanics of a multi-player game."
3) "You need to work in a group in order to accomplish goals in WoW. You also do not want to spend 2-3 hours in a dungeon working for an item that only drops 10% of the time, only to have some gold farmer ninja-loot the item, which is an all-too-common occurrence. This is not racism, it is not xenophobia, it is not anti-culturalism. This is something between common sense and saving yourself a boatload of time. People play this video game to have fun, not to practice for their eventual jobs in the Peace Corps."
I'm sure glad we have you around to tell people what hobbies are and are not worth taking seriously.
This mouse is geared towards hardcore FPS gamers, and it has features that a hardcore FPS gamer would presumably like/appreciate, like a design that isn't supposed to hurt your wrist after several consecutive hours of gaming (helps avoid later carpal tunnel too, supposedly), and a design that lets you easily tweak your sensitivity to "just right" - which is something you have to do often at tournaments, when you're playing on a different machine every time. The variable weights are not unique to this mouse, but having it is better than not. Again, it's not supposed to necessarily make you better, it's supposed to make it easier to play longer and more to your own liking. I don't see why people have this much trouble understanding it.
It never fails to astound me just how little paladins seem to recognize that their strength lies in the fact that they are a healer who is virtually impossible to kill. Being that I play a priest, the relevance of this combination of strengths is pretty goddamn distinct, but whatever. As long as paladins are on "the other team", I'll enjoy the fruits of their misguided mental labors.
"Kids are playing video games, not Cowboys and Indians! The decay of moral values! Oh no!"
Yes, all designers are game players, but all game players are not designers.
And designers are at their best when they think in terms of someone who plays a game. Regardless of who this Bill of Rights speaks to (and if it's truly only relevant from third party devs to publishers - why is it here? For that matter, it would seem a poor job by Slashdot to not be more verbose about such an essential caveat), if a designer doesn't like to play games, they will make a poor designer. If there were no correlation between the requirements of proper game design and the players of the game itself, then this would not hold true.
I disagree with the statement that "Game Designers should be considered the foremost authority on their craft."
I think the foremost authority on good game design lies in the hands of the people who play it. Like it or not, game designers aren't being paid to make art, they're being paid to make entertainment. If they make art in the process, sobeit, and that's great (people, including myself, appreciate these things), but I'm not paying them to make some elegant design, or the best graphics engine ever, or performance-hog special effects, or voice acting from Alec Baldwin. I'm paying them to make a game that is fun. I'd like Civilization 4 just as much without Leonard Nimoy (or someone who sounds just like him) reading the Civopedia entries in-game.
I try to dress nicely, though jeans and t-shirts qualifies. Still, this article smacks of ulterior motives.
Of course, those few of you who have decided to jerk your knee in my direction as a software person who *does* occasionally dress up, can go **** yourselves.
The only thing that does bother me is when somebody smells, but that can often have less to do with your clothes and more with your grooming tendencies.
Of course, minivans are generally safer than SUVs, too, and still use less gas. People buy SUVs because they *feel* safer, not because they *are* safer.
Oh, Sony, you always have our best interests in mind.
I think the context is web-based gaming comics, so you should probably just let this one go.
Good for you, and welcome to the minority, but frankly I don't think anyone really cares. If the system and company in question (Blizzard) had no credibility, nobody else would do it either. Your unilateral refusal to ever provide a CC# for a "free trial" is nothing more than the opposite side of the spectrum from someone else's unfettered willingness to provide a CC# for a "free trial" at every porn site they bump up against.
We are NOT full to capacity, please feel free to participate.
irc.freenode.net #interdictor
There are several sub-channels, such as #interdictor-chat for discussion/dialogue, #interdictor-scanner for a transcript of the radio scanner, etc.
We are also trying to track any news and information we can find to provide a summarized glimpse of the events as they happen. We're avoiding things that are already available through major news outlets, but any first-hand accounts, independent news sources, eye-witness information, international news, etc. (anything you couldn't find through, say, Fox News or MSNBC), please don't hesitate to help out.
I saw people drop out of college because of substance abuse.
I saw people drop out of college because they didn't like it.
Obviously, MMORPGs, substance abuse, and not liking college are major plagues upon our society.
I've played WoW for a long time, so bear with me on this. I think companies like IGE that support gold/item-farming actually enhance the overall community.
When in-demand goods are controlled by the hardcore players - the people who have the most invested in the game's community, the prices can easily fluctuate based on who wants whatever item. If I am one of only 3 people on a server who can craft an item, anyone in my guild can generally get the item at cost, but people in guilds I'm not particularly fond of might have to pay a very large premium. IGE benefits the casual gamer; aside from offering gold to everyone at the same cost, they are never subject to the fluctuations of in-game politicking.
Anyone who's played an MMO knows that they are a harvesting ground for tempest-in-a-teacup drama bombs. These result in rapidly shifting allegiances, favors and favorites, and unpredictable shifts in power. If the economy were solely in the hands of these same people who can't figure out who they're inviting to their tea party from one week to the next, it would be very exclusionary to the casual gamer, who hasn't the time, desire, or immersion required to get involved or heavily invested in any specific quasi-faction.
While hardcore players like myself tend to get frustrated that these newbie players can get this stuff with nothing more than a quick jaunt over to ebay, I don't generally realize that I'm not paying money for these items I have. World of Warcraft, at least, has several items that can only be obtained through raiding; a 40-man adventure into the Molten Core, or a trip to kill Onyxia. You can't buy these items because they bind to the character that loots them.
Most adults my age, give or take, have played video games, or decided early on they don't like them. Your parents? Well, I don't know your parents, and I'm sorry. I suspect if you got them playing something like Katamari Damacy, they would become familiar with the idea of moving around in 3D, and would have a far easier time learning their next 3D game. These games have progressively more difficult (or more easy, depending which way you walk the spectrum) gameplay modes that put increasingly less pressure on the individual to acclimate themselves to the movement and controls - use them. Katamari Damacy is a ridiculously easy game to pass, but if you really want to unlock things, it gets very challenging.
Who says you have to "move up" to Doom 3, anyway? Doom 3 isn't marketed towards your dad, it wasn't MADE for your dad. Are you suggesting every game should be playable by your dad, right out of the box? I've played 3D games for *years*. I spent the better part of the last 10 years playing them competitively, including competition in high-profile LAN tournaments like Quakecon, but if you stick me in front of a Flight Sim, I'm a drooling idiot. Not every game is going to be perfect for every gamer, and I'm sorry, but if you dad doesn't like the "duck and crawl" aspect of Doom 3, he's probably not going to like the absurdly fast-paced twitch-oriented gameplay required to progress at the higher levels, either.
Maybe fast-paced FPS games aren't your dad's style, but that's not the fault of the industry. Show him some of the great puzzle games out there. Show him the Sims, or the Sims Online.
As far as MMOs being concepts you're supposed to know, and reflexes you're supposed to have - How? Seriously, how? Sure, things like strength, agility, intelligence, the 'character' building blocks, tend to have similarities from game to game, but you don't have to have spent a long time playing video games that strength makes you strong. You don't need a 3-day course to teach you that 'hit points represent your health, and the lower they go, the closer you are to death'.
You can't blame genres for your dad not liking them. You can blame yourself for expecting him to like them, maybe. Or you can just accept that you tried to introduce him to advanced games without going through any of the easier ones that I've mentioned about 3 times now.
If you absolutely insist on forcing your round dad into the square FPS genre, then maybe you should try something like Giants: Citizen Kabuto. It's an older game, but it starts out at a very slow pace. Maybe one of the Thief games, as well, since they focus more on movement within your environment - a simple tenet that these other games take for granted. Have him try some of the simpler 3d RPG games. Have him try an RTS. Have him try Sim City, or any of the Civilization/Alpha Centauri series (a great series of games I'd recommend for ANYONE, with a VERY broad range of difficulties suitable for just about any player - they actually taught part of a history course at my college through Civ 2).
These games are out there, seriously. I think I've more than made my case, and I'm done with this discussion now.
If you want simple games, there's Mario Party and all of its permutations, there's Katamari Damacy, there's the Sims, etc. For kids there's absolute TONS of games, both recreational and educational, out there. Head to Best Buy and take a look sometime, seriously.
Not everybody comes to computer gaming and starts trying to play Doom III right off the bat, and your entire tone has assumed that they do, which is just silly.
Also consider that the average hand-eye coordination of the general populace has probably increased dramatically over the last two decades. Even adults who don't play video games learn to operate with a mouse and keyboard; if not for work then as some small part of their own recreational time.
Sorry, no, my original question still stands. Is there any evidence to the claim in this article, or is it purely taken off of some random guy's observation as he walked into a video game store decked out in BIG FLASHY SIGNS for all the LATEST ACTION TITLES, etc. etc. I'd be willing to bet those signs are so BIG AND FLASHY AND OVERWHELMING is because the games they're trying to sell are in a very competitive market, and they have to be in order to get anyone's attention.
Thank you for completely missing the point.
You can "learn" any game pretty quickly, but the act of mastering it is what constitutes a "learning curve". Go and Chess have large "learning curves". Chess, at least, is frequently learned from a very young age, and mastered over a lifetime.
It sounds like what people are lamenting is the lack of simple games that they associate with their childhood. Part of the reason those games were simple is because they had to be. However, just because the games were simple to learn did not make them simple to master. It took most of the top Quake 1/2/3 players a couple of years to reach the peak of their game, and this is on a worldwide level.
How much time does it take to become a Grand Master in chess? Do we see people lamenting the dearth of good hop-skotch resources for kids these days?
But some can be a nightmare as learning curve goes.
Like, say, chess, or go?
Is there any quantification for this or is it simply one random dude's anecdotal evidence? Sorry, but I don't trust gaming "journalists" to know d!ck-all about gaming beyond their own noses.