Slashdot Mirror
Body Modifications Still Hinder IT Professionals?
thedeletekey writes "The Detroit News recently ran an article about body modifications in the workplace. This got me thinking; do body modifications such as tattoos and piercings still hinder IT professionals in the workplace? Or is this a thing of the past, as these types of personal changes have become more common in recent years. In my experience, I've found both stringent dress codes requiring business casual attire, and no visible body modifications, to no dress code at all. What has the rest of the IT world found to be common?"
This is 2005...and if you aren't painfully aware...the dot.com boom has been long over...and if you want to be treated professionally, then you need to act AND look professionally. The do-whatever-you-want-club is almost closed at every location it popped up in.
Here is a simple guide:
* Hide the tats.
* Save the piercings for the goth club.
* Use a natural hair color. (man...I wish I could do green at work...)
I'm sure you can think of other examples.
// Agent Green (Ian / IU7 / KB1JQO)
// IEEE 802.3: All 10base Are Belong To Us
It's a sign of maturity. Barring religious reasons, one should not wear any form of *visible* modifications outside of those that are generally acceptable (e.g. lobe piercings in women). Anything else shows you're immature and trying to be "different" when really you're just another idiot.
Stand out of the crowd by what you do, not what you look like. Anything else is just juvenile.
For me, if you want to hold a professional job, you need to look professional. That means not covered in tattoos, have 14 different body piercing through various body parts, etc. If you are insistent that you HAVE to have such body decorations, either cover them up with clothes (tattoos), or remove them (piercing). Ladies can have a pair, maybe two pairs of ear rings. Guys...unless you are gay, leave the ear rings at home. And if you have such desire to put those stupid rings in your ears that increase the size of your ear lobe, don't even bother to apply.
...lots of metallic parts sticking out of you on a job that requires working near live electrical appliances of which some are equipped with high speed moving parts is a bad idea.
Not to mention turning yourself into two minute spot on That's Incredible by way of using your body as a canvas doesn't exactly scream "able to deal with standards and normality" which are good things to be able to convince interviewers of.
I don't even want to get into genital piercings and tattoos inside of lips.
Accepted in IT? More often adopted by geeks who are hoping to convince someone they're tough. I see very few genuine stereotypical tough body modders with any nerd cred. And a snake fighting an eagle taking up your whole chest is a lot more normal on a biker than let's say a penguin bending over and mooning Bill Gates on a support tech wearing coke bottle glasses, but either one doesn't exactly say "mentally stable and totally dependent" to me.
Grouse about superficial judgements all you like. The world doesn't work according to idealism.
If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
Do whatever you will to or for your body, your appearance, but do so at your own risk. Since tattoos are essentially permanent, think about long term goals, ramifications, etc., and what some "permanent" might mean for those goals.
The OP talks about some places being "cool" with tattoos, piercings, etc. That may be true, but that is only a snapshot of today's standards. During the dotcom heyday, with IT "specialists" (most really weren't, n'est-ce pas?) the standard for acceptable appearance was "anything goes". We need you, and we still love you even though your hair is filthy and goes to your waist, and you have tattoos.
But, I worked for a large corporation for 21 years... when I started, the dress code was un-stated, but tacitly enforced... you had to wear dress pants (absolutely no jeans), dress shirt, and at least a sports coat (yes, the tie was optional). Over time, as IT became the place to work and demand for workers was high I saw this dress code disappear and the office soon looked like the stretch pants, khaki cutoff shorts, flip-flops and sandals capital of the United States!
Fast forward to the dotcom crash... new management, and new dress codes, this time actually formally enforced. Yeah, things change.
So, think about it... tattoos go a long way... and regardless of right or wrong, some people react negatively to them, and regardless of whether you like that or not, it's there! (I know of a very close friend who lost out to a med-school... she found out later it was influenced by her tattoos.) (Also, I think this has even passed muster in court of law -- I think Starbucks actually has a dress code and appearance code that was challenged by someone who had a pierced something, and Starbucks prevailed.)
For those who need further prodding and convincing, read John Malloy's Dress for Success. Whether personally you like or don't like people's reactions to how you look at least Malloy will give you some empirical perspective to work with...
Decorate your mind, not your body.
org.slashdot.post.SignatureNotFoundException: ewg
I can't believe the number of posts on this site talking about how "unprofessional" even an earring on a male looks. Are we really still that wrapped up in gender identity that even a gold stud on a guy is a threat?
The arguement could be made that clients or managers could have the sort of archaic, narrow-minded ideas which would necessitate very conservative attire at the workplace; however, I don't expect so much of that attitude itself on a site where the majority of the posters are geeks. I thought we were a more open-minded lot than that.
This is the same attitude which used to force men to wear ties and women to wear dresses. It's the same attitude which made people be angry with the "long" bowl-cuts the Beatles sported when they came to the USA.
I'm not saying the attitude doesn't exist, or that you can currently do what you want and get away with it. All I'm saying is that there's no reason smart people like all of us should help it persist.
Just then the floating disembodied head of Colonel Sanders started yelling Everything You Know Is Wrong!-Weird Al
A wise person once told me that the difference between a good choice and a bad choice is that a good choice gives you more choices.
Considering how many types of (strech) pierchings and tatoos are difficult to reverse, why would someone want to get one? What kind of long term plan/goal does it promote?
I've known people who work for MS who were pierced from head to toe and I've always thought that to be unprofessional, distracting and quite honestly a bit repulsive. Clean yourself up and show up to work looking like a decent human being people.
In some cultures of human beings, it's considered indecent if one is not pierced.
If you want to be taken seriously and treated professionally where you work, unless it's a small company run by other geeks, you need to dress and look clean and professional. It's still a fact that people judge you based on how you look, and if you're in an office environment surrounded by people in slacks and shirts and other professional attire, you'll look very out of place with a bunch of piercings or tatoos. What it says to coworkers is that you don't care enough about the job to even APPEAR professional.
Now, I know some people here are going "Oh for the love of God! What century are we in that we still have to conform to such out-dated societal norms!? We must break free... blah blah blah" To those people I say "Grow up!" Your days as a rebellious member of some imagined counter-culture pretty much end when you're out on your own making your way in the world.
Yes, there are places still where there is no dress code... but they're the exception as opposed to the rule. If you want a professional job, you have to play by the professional rules set out by employers. Body mods, strange haircuts/colors etc. are a risk you may choose to take, but like all risks you have to realize there are consequences. You can't just run around and do whatever you want and expect everyone to be cool with it. When you work for someone else, you play by their rules.
Don't like it? Then I offer a modified stock Slashdot response for anyone who ever complains about a piece of software:
"If you don't like it, start your own company and set the rules how you like them! Otherwise, sit down"
Sure, if someone has every skill you need, lots of experience in the real world, can communicate clearly and professionally... that's a great start. But let's not pretend that the huge tatoos and copious, highly visible piercings are just a simple "style." They are very potent messages, which don't jive too well with the other messages we're talking about, here.
For example (if we translate all of the messages involved into the spoken word): "Hi, I'm a talented, certified Cisco jockey - just what you need. You can trust me with your crucial data, and trust that I will protect you from Starbucks-fueled anarchist semi-punks trying to break through your firewall to deface The Man's web site. Also, whenever I'm in a meeting with management, you'll see that I specifically (and permanently) have chosen to slightly shock and unsettle the average person, and send a not-very-subtle disturbing message of dark counter-culture and pseudo-tribal pop cultism that will completely go against the grain of your company's typical customers, vendors, employees, and management. But despite my doing everything I can to make you stare at me, I insist that you do not, and only consider me just another applicant. All of this stuff I've done to myself means nothing in the context of what I do at work, because who I really am doesn't matter at work, even though I want the salary of a dedicated IT professional for whom the career actually is important. So, let's talk money! And, are you staring at my eyebrow piercings, my mohawk, or my reptile-eye contact lenses? I can't see very well with them in, and I want to be sure that I'm coming across well in this interview."
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
It's a sign of maturity. Barring religious reasons, one should not wear any form of *visible* modifications outside of those that are generally acceptable (e.g. lobe piercings in women). Anything else shows you're immature and trying to be "different" when really you're just another idiot.
Stand out of the crowd by what you do, not what you look like. Anything else is just juvenile.
Well said!
One thing I've noticed -- and it's not just that I'm getting older -- is that young adults are a lot less mature than 20 years ago. In many ways they're more sophisticated, have more general knowledge, and may even be smarter, but what they are not is "adult." College age people are much more like teenagers now than young adults. Professors I talk to bitch about this a lot, having witnessed the decline.
Where am I going with this? These days adolescence seems to last until about 35, with all the juvenile behavior that goes with it.
The worst part is that the article submitter seems to frame the question as if he is part of some great repressed minority fighting to gain the right to look like an idiot.
Really, who isn't part of repressed minority now-a-days?
Ever since the 60s, if you can claim to be part of some repressed minority, you get to claim the moral highground in any argument and the facts of the argument are no longer relevant to you. Anyone how disagrees with you (no matter how ridiculous and asinine your position is) is The Man, trying to keep you down.
We live in a time where rudeness is rewarded.
I have an appearance issue that I'm sure makes me less employable: I walk funny. Not a big deal, just a minor neurological problem. I'm sure people look at me and ask themselves "Is that guy on drugs or what?" I've thought of carrying a cane, even though I don't even know how to use one, just to emphasize that it's a minor medical disability, not an effect of a debauched lifestyle. But I'm sure it'd come off as a pose. So I just live with it. Life is often unfair, and it's not productive to get self-righteous about it.
I'm quite liberal [1] on most issues, including what I regard as trival things such as hair style, color and dress code, and I wouldn't want to work at a company that got uptight about engineers/developers/sysadmins wearing trainers or comfortable casual footware to the office, or that similarly imposed a needlessly strict dress code.
However, on the subject of tatoo's and piercings I find I'm quite conservative. If I'm being honest I'd find it hard not to feel suspicous of the judgement of anyone in the field who thought it would a good idea to place bits of metal through their face (other than perhaps for non medial purposes), especially if they are over the age of about 25.
I honestly would not feel comfortable with someone who thought it was a smart decision to do this to himself helping design software or network infrastucture and I wouldn't want him in the team I was in. Based on the avalible evidence, I would not trust his capacity for rational judgement (an absolute core requirement for sort of work I do).
With regard to tattoo's I'm of a similar opinion. Having the name of your wife/kids/football team (or something of similar significance) tattooed on your arm, I'd consider quite reasonable and not count that as a sign of poor judgement. The same would be true for things are 'tastefully' decorative (while realisting that term is subjective, I would include things such as celtic crosses, marui tattoo's [2]).
However, this would not be the case for anyone who I observed who had something overtly tasteless like 'Love/Hate' tatoos across their knuckles, or large tatoos of cartoon characters, like Daffy Duck or Tom & Jerry (also equally negative indicators when worn on ties IMO - with some exceptions).[3]
I'd try not to let someone having facial percings or tasteless tattoo's on it's own as something that stand in the way of someone being hired in a job interview, but I conceed that it could count against them in a tie breaker situation. If there was a position for someone in an overly creative area (such as graphic design, or perhaps marketing) I don't think I would consider percings or tattoo's necessarily negative indicators at all.
[1] NB: With a small 'l'.
[2] Not an exhaustive list
[3] I have a deadbeat realtive who incidentally has all of these, and then some.
Soviet Russia ...
There's a point at which you just have to shrug your shoulders and say tough shit. Yes, personal responsibility hurts sometimes. That's part of being an adult.
Besides, Hot Topic and Burger King are usually hiring, and they generally don't care about tats and whatnot. If you are in the above situation, be thankful that your moment of stupidity didn't result in death(yours or others), suck it up and move on. Don't expect the world(especially employers) to cut you slack for a boneheaded move you made while drunk.
All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
Let me just say first, that I have no piercings or tats. However, I find what you have written to be discriminatory. Would you like to be denied a job just because you were of a different religion? In fact, you even go so far as to call such things pagan. Yes, bodily modification is against some religions (most notably Judeochristian religions), but so what?? In addition, you say "Of course, you masochists/pagans like that, but Christians don't.," which first insults anyone reading this who has a different religion, and second assumes that everyone is Christian. I am not, and I feel insulted. And, how does it show that the wearer has low morals? Your comment just shows how narrow of a view you have. It's time to wake up to the real world. Not everyone is as narrow-minded as you, and that does not make them bad. I dislike piercings on a man, but I never let that influence my judgment.
This sig is provided "as is" without warranty of any kind.
Call me crazy, but I feel a far more comfortable dealing with people dressed as they want to be dressed, with whatever visible body modifications they have. In fact, I feel far more comfortable dealing with people who have piercings and/or visible tattoos, despite having none myself. Why? Because far more often than not, that type of work environment makes the employees comfortable and happy with their job, which is the best way to ensure they do their job well. Most of the employees at the best pizza place in this county (actually rated best by the newspapers, not just IMO) have tattoos, piercings, and non-standard haircuts, and they do their jobs well.
When I worked in customer service myself, I got very relieved whenever I got to deal with people who were visibly off-beat, because contrary to popular belief, they tend to be nice people. They go by their own standards instead of forcing themselves to conform to someone else's standards, which means less stress for them, and get this: most people would rather deal with someone who's actually friendly than someone being forced to fake it. Less stress = more relaxed = generally easier to deal with.
I'm also rather saddened that some would call body modification immature. Though I'm sure some immature people modify themselves, it is by no means an indicator; as implied above, I've found a greater degree of maturity in those who are into it than those against it. It's not usually whoring for attention any more than wearing a shirt because you find it aesthetic. It is an aspect of individuality, and individuality is what drives humanity, like it or not. Entrepeneurs and inventors aren't conformists, and I don't think anyone else needs to be either. We're humans, not robots. Frankly, I'd rather my potential jobs be replaced by machines than have to make myself as machinelike as possible to obtain and keep those jobs.
By reading this you acknowledge that you have read it.
... and people wonder why I call bible-thumpers ignorant superstitious hicks ...
Oh, yeah, that's right - women should be subservient to men, because Adam was created first, then Eve. And people should fear god, because the fear of god is the beginning of wisdom.
Grow up. Get laid. It's a lot more fun than prayer.
You're right that claiming that you belong to a repressed is a common tactic, no matter how absurd an idea it is that your group is repressed. I'm still wondering about how the 4/5 of Americans who are Christians became an oppressed minority, especially in an age when you have to be Christian to have a chance at most high political offices and increasingly to be a high level civil servant or military officer.
I agree. I live in a small (pop. 50K) town in Idaho; however, I work for a HUGE "business casual" corporation that set up shop here. I have gauged ear lobes and tats on my arm and the back of my calf. I've never had anyone give me flack for either.
Its all common sense. I don't flaunt either, and know when it is appropriate to remove the CBR's or wear long sleeves. I think its all relative.
I know what you're thinking. Did I forward 65,535 packets or 65,536 packets?
What, you mean looking like an idiot isn't a great way to get a good paying job? Amazing the things you can learn on slashdot. The worst part is that the article submitter seems to frame the question as if he is part of some great repressed minority fighting to gain the right to look like an idiot.
Excuse me, but since when the Bible salesman look is a sign of maturity or wisdom?
Some people just don't like it. That's why dress codes have to be enforced genius. Because not everybody likes to wear the same stuff.
There's no merit whatsoever in dressing the way your daddy dressed when he was your age. And by the way, some of us think that judging people based solely on their appearence is the ultimate sign of idiocy.
"and know when it is appropriate to remove the CBR's or wear long sleeves."
Was the interview one of those times?
you're an adult now
Yep, totally. And the funny thing about being an adult is being able to choose what you want to do, what to wear and where to work. You want a job at IBM? Then you'll have to adjust to the company's codes.
But it's also stupid to think you can't work in a professional environment unless you look a certain way. In fact it's bullshit. It all depends on what your professional company expects from you.
I wear steel tubes in my ears. I have a long goatee and sideburns. I wear tshirts and jeans. I don't have tattoos yet, but I won't be hindered by my job when it comes to deciding what and where they'll be.
Do you know why I can?
Because it's not what I am expected to be like. Because I don't interact with customers. I don't meet with partners. I'm not an executive and don't want to be. I write code. Basically the only time I'm called out of my office is for status meetings.
Most importantly though, I work for a very liberal tech company. Our execs don't judge you by what you look like or what you wear. I've had hallway chats with high-level VPs while wearing WTF? and "Every time you download music god kills a kitten" shirts and it just isn't an issue.
However, if for some reason I had to give a talk or teach a class to people outside out company, I'd of course choose appropriate attire and look professional, but professional doesn't have to mean being anal-retentive, wearing button-up shirts and kaki slacks.
BUT, if I worked for a company I really liked and they changed the dress code to be button ups and a tie, fine. It's my choice to either work there or find new work. I can adapt, I'm not physically attached to my clothing. The earrings would be a little weird because the holes are kind of large, but I'm sure I could find a solution if I had to.
But I don't.
R(k)
'quite frankly.. body 'modifications' as the article refered to them, are looked at by many others as 'body mutilations'. While I am all for people having the freedom to do whatever they want, this actually means 'being able to do whatever they want so long as they dont infringe on the freedoms of everyone else'. Subjecting others to the display of such mutilation crosses the line. A similar example is if I started refusing to take a shower every day I went to work - my 'right to stink' is overridden by other's 'right to breath fresh air'. Besides if you really analyze it, puncturing your body is fundamentally disturbing - in fact I think that the people that do this, do it just to get this shock value' from this disturbance they give others. They're basically insecure and think it makes them 'cool' - when in fact they've just de-sensitized themselves so much they think they like it. Whatever. There's limits to what you can do in society and be treated respectfully. When you are enourmously fat, you smell bad, or you insist on puncturing your body with little hooks, you're going to get treated differently and that's just the way it is - the majority of people dont want to be subjected to that type of nonsense.
-- NeTMoNGeR
it is people like you who drag down our entire nation. Your "clean yourself up" line is a load of bull shit.
"I find it pleasant to work in a homogeneous environment where everyone looks the same." Did you skip that all those classes in elemtenary school where they teach tolerance, what prejudice is, that its bad, and about diversity. Perhaps you'd be happier in a slave labor camp in some foreign country where everyone looks the same, or is forced to lest they be persecuted, segragated or killed for doing so.
The glory of America is that A. we all dont have to think like you, and B. that we dont all think like you. People fought and died for these rights. Whether or not you or I have any opinion as to their appearance is irrelevant. You're entitled to your opinion that you dont like the appearence, but that's all that you are entitled to. While I for one don't find the appearence to be preferential for myself, they have every right to it, and i'll defend that right to the end. Becuase you never know when it will be my opinion or preference or whatnot that some pompous douche bag such as yourself finds "undesireable" and then tries to outlaw it. The only thing unprofessional is thinking that you somehow know better than everyone else what is right.. personnally i find your attitude to be unprofessional, distracting and repulsive. clean yourself up and act like a decent american... notice how this was posted by an anonymous coward too?
"Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" ~Frank Zappa
EdelFactor
Tats, while the traditional mark of someone about to kick your butt,...
Where do you live? Ink and piercings are about the most conformist, follow-the-leader, thing to do anymore. Want to be a rebel? Don't get ANY tattos or piercings.
The only discrimination that is illegal is the type of discrimination that has been held illegal -- usually based on a protected attribute. It is legal to discriminate on someone with green hair, or drives a F.O.R.D. or who wore Calvin Klein jeans on a Tuesday.
Fight Spammers!
I agree that yeah, it's your company and your rules, but at one point you say it's not mainstream but then you claim that it's something only "sheep" do... Which is it?
As for the dumping gas on your head and lighting it to show that you're a leader... have you tried this yourself? If not you must be like the rest of the sheep. Can't realize how ridiculous you just made yourself look? This is the kind of stuff teenaged kids hear from irrational parents, not from a businessman that they can respect.
All in all, it's a misconception on your part that makes you think that people getting ink done are doing it to express their individuality. I'm sure some do but I can tell you right now that 90% of the people I know have no idea that I have had a fair amount of tattoo work done. I did it for myself.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
Yes, piercings, tatoos, beachwear as office wear, etc, has become more prevelent. But it's still not mainstream
..then it is...
First it's not mainstream..
And c'mon, "modifications" like piercings and tatoos are prevelent enough that they're no longer individualistic; people are just following the crowd
My company, my rules. You don't want to play along, find somewhere else to work..... I hire leaders, not sheep.
Now that's just ridiculous, you can't have it both ways here.
Somehow I don't think the tats or piercings are going to cause you a problem when stacked up against your ego.
Some of us do it because we enjoy the way it looks.
Tatooed like a human cartoon? Or showing your pierced tongue at any occasion just to make sure others know you're friggin cool-looking?
bleh!
I don't feel like it...
Last week, we had a very interesting lecture by one of the heads of company's Client Service Group on client meetings/presentations.
At one point, she said something quite wise about appearances, that is a perfect answer to the article's question:
"When a client leaves a meeting with you, the client should remember WHAT YOU SAID, and NOT how you looked".
As a background, I work for a software development company that sells to large financial companies; many of us "geeks" get to meet clients so the lecture was very popular.
To add to that, my own view is "If you need to distinguish yourself from other people by what you look like, there's a big chance you have no other beneficial qualities to dinstinguish yourself with". There are exceptions to this, but not many in my experience.
-DVK
--
"Can't act. Can't sing. Balding. Can dance a little."
- Human Resources Department judgment on Fred Astaire's Hollywood screen test in the early 1930s.
"The right to figure things out for yourself is the only true freedom everyone shares. Go use it"-R.A.Heinlein
Perhaps its time christians took a hard look in the mirror and asked themselves why they're so offensive to so many people.
Yeah right, that won't happen. They're "forgiven", remember? They can do whatever they want now, because they're forgiven, so doing unto others as you would have them do unto you, isn't a requirement for them. They said the magic prayer, now they have a license to be jackasses.
BTW, I'm a Christian, but seldom admit that in public because of the type of Christian you're talking about. I remain convinced they are a vocal minority, but there are enough of them around that I'm embarassed to even be identified as a Christian as I don't want to be associated with them.
Sad isn't it, I'm not embarassed to say I believe what Jesus taught, or that I consider him the messiah, but I am embarassed to be associated with the clowns like the GP.
BRAVO. Rip them new ones. Jesus ripped the pharisees(the true spiritual ancestors of people like the gp) new ones constantly. GREAT POST!
So are you saying that he is wrong for giving us his opinion?
And why is it that you jump directly to the 'slave labor camp' analogy?
It's like talking to someone who compares everything to the Nazis. It's annoying, and it marginalizes what actually happened.
"I think we should all wear uniforms.."
"Yeah, and the Nazis thought that too.."
"We should line this up straight."
"What are you, some kind of Nazi?"
As if lining stuff up straight, and wearing uniforms somehow puts a person in the same vein as the Nazis.
The Nazis weren't bad because they wore uniforms, or because they tried to achieve order.
They were bad because they tortured and killed millions of people. They attacked their neighboring countries, they treated people worse than animals.
But enjoying order does not mean that a person should be compared to the Nazis.
No reason to lie.
I'm late to this discussion, but I'll make my statement.
Businesses should be allowed to set whatever dress code they want. Don't like it? Don't work there. Given that I believe that businesses in general shouldn't have to hire anyone they don't want for any reason, I suppose I'm in a minority.
Seriously, be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions. It's that simple. I don't think anyone out there that gets a piercing or a tatoo or whatever doesn't know that a lot of people, right or wrong, have issues with that.
I have my ear pierced and while it's really no big deal nowadays, there are some places that it's an issue. You know what? I have no desire to deal with or work with a company that's that hung up on an earring. They're tight ass pricks. That's their right. It's my right not to want to deal with them and work elsewhere.
The biggest problem I have with the "different" or "extreme" crowd is that some of them think it's *their* right to do whatever they want and that everyone around them should just deal with it. Yeah? Fuck you guys. Do what you want. I'm all for it. However, quit telling *other* people who they should feel and think. Do what you but be willing to accept the fucking consequences.
Businesses exist, for the most part, to make money. If your cute little lip ring or tatoo impedes that, why should they hire you? Even if you're skilled, it's likely there's someone else who is just as skilled who isn't outside that business's comfort zone. And again, if someone is going to get that caught up over a lip ring, do you really *want* to work there? I wouldn't.
If your response is, "Well I *need* X job." Take your piercings out. If you've got tats it's likely you know the possible consequnces when you got them. If you didn't, you're probably not bright enough to be qualified for any place with a dress code. Beggars can't be choosers. Come on people, this is real life. I'm not telling anyone to give up their "individuality" or personal "expression." I'm not telling anyone to "grow up" because I personally have almost no issues with tats or piercings. (Although there is a point of excess that even bothers me. Deal with it.) Hell, I'm the kind of person who would lose clients before firing or not hiring someone based on appearance. However, that's *my* choice and it's not my place to other people hiring how they need to run *their* business.
Two ways of saying the same thing:
BCR = Ball-Closure Ring
CBR = Captive Bead Ring
Personally, I refer my my earing as a BCR.
My current contract which ISN'T a major global bank, insists on Ties, Which is kinda irritating. Add on to that no use of headphones (it's an open plan office, next to the support guys, try programming in that), and NO bod-mods on display, have put me in a position where I've had to take my BCR out.
Previous to this contract I've working in several banks in London UK, an have always eventually managed to put my earing back in...
I hate the dress code thing. What I wear has no bearing on what I can do. It's always shite managers who don't know their arse from their elbows that insist on these stupid rules.
IT in Corporates has completely gone to the dogs. It's run by suits for suits, and we've all become drones. I'm old enough to remember when being in an IT dept. was a fun thing, where you could innovate and invent and create. Now it's all 'can we buy that off the shelf?' so that us guys with real skills have become overpaid 'IT product buyers'.
*sigh* Roll on the revolution.
-Jar.
Together, We Can Make Slashdot Better. I Do NOT Mod ACs. - Check Me Out
Dunno about him, but personally I don't mind that. I have no piercings or tattoos, but I still do tell my employer that no, I don't ever want a promotion to management. Been there, done that, decided that management is not something I like to do.
Yes, I can occasionally talk to a customer, or draw a flowchart on a whiteboard in front of an audience. But the keyword is: occasionally. I'd very much sit at a computer than spend every day in meetings, corporate power games, or trying to make Wally finally actually do _some_ work, _any_ work. I very much like it when he's not really my problem.
Or to put it otherwise: if I wanted to do either management or marketting, I'd have went to a business college. I chose computers for a reason: that's what I like to do.
So other people will get promoted instead. Good. That I like.
So I've had people I've recruited end up my boss. I'm ok with that. They probably deserved it too, with the amount of show-business they put up for the boss instead of actually working or actually learning programming. But anyway, it still means that I do the job I like.
Some people seem to assume an uni-dimensional rat race and that money is the only thing that matters. They'd do _anything_ for money, or for some stupid social acceptance goal like "promotions are good". They just have to chase some stupid goal that will actually make their life _worse_, much like dogs chase a car: never stopping to think what they'd do if they actually caught one.
At one point it's not even a promotion any more, it's just really switching carreer tracks to a completely new line of work. A new work which doesn't even resemble the old one, and you're not even prepared for, and you're probably incompetent for or don't have the right personality type for. (E.g., an introvert won't really enjoy a life where 8 hours a day are spent talking to everyone, from making sure what the team is doing, to meetings with clients, to meetings with higher level management, etc.)
It's called "Peter's Principle".
Is it worth it? Is it what you _really_ want to do with your life? Would you switch jobs to _anything_, including driving a garbage truck or shovelling manure, if it paid better and was fashionably disguised as a promotion?
Well, if you can honestly answer "yes" to that, yeah, you're in the right rat race. Keep up, brown nose, backstab, and don't let the Joneses get a promotion before you do.
If not, well, then you understand why some of us have "quality of life" as the _goal_, and money and promotions are just _means_ to that end. If the trade-off involved in getting those means actually move you farther from the goal, is actually a bad trade-off. One to be avoided.
(Just as examples of such trade-offs: you get more money but at the expense of getting a stress-related ulcer, or doing so much overtime that you don't actually have the time to enjoy that money, or whatever. Was it worth it? Did it really improve your life?)
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
My company, my rules. You don't want to play along, find somewhere else to work
Yes, and also your loss when you fail to see potential in someone just because they have a tatoo or a piercing.
If you're unwilling to follow something as simple as the dress codes, what does that tell me about what to expect when I ask you to do something important that you don't want to do?
Still, why not focus on your business and the quality of your products instead of spending time making up silly rules? People are comfortably in wearing what they usually wear, and comfortably poeple is something you want in your office. Trust me.
Yes, piercings, tatoos, beachwear as office wear, etc, has become more prevelent. But it's still not mainstream, and it's definately not corporate. Some people are still offended or uncomfortable with it. If you don't care about other people's sensitivities, even if you think they're stupid, why should they care about you?
What other people are you talking about? Yeah, some people might be sensitive to afro-americans. Or gays. Or muslims. Or poeple with bad breath. I guess the only kind of people working for you are white males, age 25, normal weight. Normal everything. That environment doesn't sound very inspirational to me.
And c'mon, "modifications" like piercings and tatoos are prevelent enough that they're no longer individualistic; people are just following the crowd. I hire leaders, not sheep.
Then perhaps you should fire yourself for being a sheep in your society instead of being a daring leader, wouldn't you say?
Had to think about it.
When Truman Capote wrote In Cold Blood he came away with an observation. The psycho-criminals he met were invariably heavily tatooed and that led him to speculations about the craziness trying to come out. So I think an interviewee with a lot of modification would have his stability looked at suspiciously or be considered a bit socially retarded for falling for a fashion emulating psycho-criminals. Would you come into an interview for a professional or managerial job in biker leathers and chains?
Personally, I always had a bit of bemusement. The guys with two-feet of hair in the late seventies had an easy fashion fix. But scrubbing those tats, oh -- around this decade, was going to hurt -- the pocketbook if nothing else.
your translation is a subjective fabrication of what you think someone else is thinking.
... medical reasons?), they have to know that hanging a hardware store off of their face is going to suggest a certain need for attention, and willingness to present an atmosphere of discomfort in order to get that attention.
But that's exactly my point. Unless you come right out and say what the 1-inch hole in your earlobe and the four studs in your forehead do mean, you're leaving it up to the average person to guess. And most people are going to assume that whatever it "means" to the person who did it, the highly visible nature of it, especially on the face, is so that it will be seen. The vast majority of the things we all do to our appearance are done to project some facet of a larger image, to convey alignment with a particular way of life or attitude. Even if that's not true for a particular person (say, they have to have six eyebrow rings for
But it still doesn't matter - it's in the eye of the beholder, and when you staple your lips, you're going to be subject to whatever the average person thinks about what you're trying to say. And if you aren't going to continually start all of your business conversations with an explanation of "it's not really what you think" or "don't worry, it only looks like it hurts" or "people have been piercing faces for thousands of years, get over it" before you talk about buying and implementing that new load balancing router pair, well... then you have to put up with me, and everyone else, jumping to contextual conclusions about what you are trying to say. People in an environment where they can afford to pay real career-type IT salaries to quality nerds (which is what this whole thread is all about) don't usually have time sort through all of that, and aren't going to want to wonder if every staffer, vendor, or customer that Mr. Pierced is going to be in front of is going to want to take the time either.
The shorthand interpretation of the look in question is registered pretty solidly on the wider culture. Never mind the irony of people trying so hard to be "unique" that they look just like half a million other Goths or whatever, the issue is that most people have at least some notion that the heavily pierced, tatooed person is hoping that all that decoration will be seen (especially when it's in places, like on the face, where it can't be missed). And the desire for it to be seen equates to an expectation that the underlying message is either obvious, or is suitable for speculation. And to the 40-year-old who manages the department (and the budget that would pay the tatooed IT person wanting that stable paycheck and health benefits) is going to make some snap decisions based on that first impression that Mr. Pierce is forcing her to digest. It doesn't matter what his reason is for the body art, any more than it matters what Mark Rothko was thinking when he painted: the audience will draw its own conclusions unless you provide a running commentary, and you can't spend your day at work providing one and still expect that time to be as valuable (and well paid) as someone who spends that same time, say, writing code or tuning servers.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
Join the military then. Then you can be assured you'll all "look the same". Moron.
Answer me this: have you given any thought to how your tattoos will look when you are 60? That was the question I asked myself as a teenager, when the topic came up.
Basically nothing good comes from it and she got it so long ago it isn't important to her anymore. The problems or fears it causes include:
Well this is just my take, I have nothing personal against tattoos or piercings (well on girls tattoos are sexy to me but I feel less professionally interested in pierced people.. and my eyes are always going to the piercing instead of their eyes so it hinders my communication with them I think). If you think you might work in a conservative national or corporate culture one day it probably is better to go with a small tattoo than a piercing is my guess, but if you can make it without either until you are out of school you'll probably be happier later on I'd guess. Whatever!
Your story illustrates how fully body mods have shifted in our culture from rebellious to conformist. People now get piercing and tattoos because their peers have them, rather than to stand out from their peers. Sorry, but it has become hard for me to look at a marked-up 16-year old and not roll my eyes. The very fact they they succumbed to peer pressure makes me view them as the opposite of the rebel they are trying to portray. It's like wearing an "I AM COOL(TM)" T-shirt. The fact that you think wearing that shirt makes you cool indicates how uncool you really are. Man, there goes my karma.
And it's turtles, all the way down.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I hire people for my business. I want talented people. On the other hand, I want the clients in my conservative, right-wing community to feel comfortable when they come to my office. I want a professional atmosphere.
I was raised ever so slightly before tatoos and (to a lesser extent) piercings became a big deal. My opinion is that tattoos are for hookers and sailors.
On the other hand, I don't want to exclude people with tattoos and odd piercings from my labor force if it hurts my business.
All things being equal, I will take the non-tattooed, non-pierced person over his/her body modded competitor for a job at my office. Talent will rule, however, to some extent.
I view tattoos/mods (that my clients can see and may be offended/unnerved by) as being a "cost" of hiring the employee. If the cost exceeds the expected benefit, they won't get hired.
Another interesting issue comes up as well -- what to do with Plain Jane who comes into my office unmodded who hits 30 years old and wants to have a lifestyle change to shake things up? She goes out and gets a Mike Tyson tiger tattoo on part of her face. She is in a face-to-face customer relations position. What do I do? My answer is that she'd be canned.
Am I a right-wing fascist dickhead? Nope. I'm simply making an economic decision that results in putting more food on my table. I have no duty or obligation to carry the costs of an employee's body mod. To the extent that prejudice against body mods remains in my community which prejudice can cost me business, I am not allowing my employees to transfer the payment of that cost so that it comes out of my wallet. It's your decision to body mod, you should pay all the costs.
Until body modded people have protected status under nondiscrimination statutes, I have the right to fire (so long as I have a written policy, etc.), and I will. Not because I hate boddy modding, but because I don't want it to hurt my business.
If you smoke, you choose to pay the costs of smoking, and hyour employer shouldn't have to subsidize you. Likewise, if you body mod, your employer has no obligation to subsidize your lifestyle choice.
If you're gay, black, hispanic, disabled, etc., you cannot be discriminated against unreasonably because it is not a choice. I certainly won't discriminate on any of those grounds. On the other hand, body modders are not "forced" to do anything, and businesses are certainly free to discriminate. They get to make a choice as to whether forgoing that portion of the labor pool is good or bad for business. Based on my experiences, I think people will make similar business decisions as I would -- people with body-mods (obvious ones) will pay a penalty in the workforce as a result.
In today's employment market, I would be loathe (as an employee) to hurt my career prospects by body modding in a way that forces me into a competitive disadvantage. If your choices are based on non-monetary concerns, by all means mod away, but don't cry about it if it hurts your job prospects. If you do, you're being either whiny or naive, and neither of those characteristics are things I look for in my employees.
GF.
Lots of petrified grits
it is people like you who drag down our entire nation.
Wah! Wah! Someone doesn't like the things I do to my body! They're destroying the country!
Dude, get a grip. You have a right to dress like a complete idiot, and other people have the right to say you're dressing like a complete idiot. That's how this America thing works.
Les Miserables Volume 1 now up with my reading of
I do research in the chemical industry for a living. I have five earrings, two of them stretched. My nose, tongue, and back of my neck are also pierced, and I have a tattoo that completely covers my right calf.
I keep my appearance at work strictly professional. I'm not here to make a statement by my personal appearance; I'm here to do a job. The only piercings you can see when I'm at work are my ears - everything else is either covered up or has concealing jewelry in it. I wear business casual to work, just like everyone else. None of the managers in my direct line all the way up to the VP of my division have any problem with how I look, nor have I taken flak from any of the managers here on site.
To me, being allowed to wear earrings to work shows that my employer respects me as an individual. It's a courtesy that costs the company nothing, but it improves my morale immensely. It also builds loyalty. My piercings are not just a fashion statement, they *mean* something to me. I would turn down a $10k raise to work at another company, if I had to take my plugs out and let my lobes close back up to do it. You may think I'm foolish, that's your perogative, but we all have our priorities in life, and this is mine.
I've interviewed a number of potential new hires to the company, and they've all been favorably impressed by the fact that my large earrings are allowed. It conveys the message that here, individuality is respected. Your technical competence and accomplishments matter far more than anything else. This is the kind of culture a lot of young people, myself included, are looking for.
Yes, us pierced people are well aware that some people are going to discriminate against us because of how we look. That just means we have to work harder and perform better than the rest. If I were an employer, that's the kind of attitude I'd be looking for in an employee.
I have facial hair. And when I was looking for a new IT job, I went to like 5-6 interviews without a bite. Then I remembered something we were told in high school once by a comedian on a career day. He said that facial hair makes people seem more dark, mysterious, like they're hiding something. And for a comedian to be more accepted well by an audience, they need to be clean shavin. So, I applied this idea to a job interview and shaved off the goatee. The very next interview I had turned to a job offer. And then I just grew the goat back after I was comfortable with my job security. You are judged by looks people. Take out the nose rings, shave off the beard, cut the hair, cover up the tats and look professional. You will notice a difference in how people treat you.
There's no place like ~/
I'm sitting on the train, on my way work. In front of me sit a guy and a girl, the guy is complaining about how the job market sucks. He just can't find a job doing anything other than cleaning toilets. He's "got skills that no one seems to care about" and he's "really wasting his talents" swinging a mop.
Now, I'm not sure what his talents and skills are. What I do know is he's got 6 piercings in his face and about 8 in his ears. He has a tattoo on his neck that appears to be a gangsta with a pistol. Underneath the cartoon thug it says, "4-LIFE".
Wow. I am absolutely stunned that this type of discrimination is going on! I have no problem whatsoever with someone like this serving my fries, cutting my lawn or picking up my garbage.
This is outrageous that this fine young man can't make a go in this world!
Folks. Sometimes you can't make your own rules. I know you are smarter than the rest of the world. I know your personal sense of style and individuality is what everyone should embrace and hearld. But we don't. You look like a fucking jackass. Is it a coincidence that the prison yard is a ocean of inked skin? Is it?
Karma means nothing to me, so suck it...
In the version I'm reading, that ends with ``... on these - the two commands - all the law and the prophets do hang.'' The ``two commands'' are love God and love your neighbor. The part about ``all the law and the prophets do hang'' means that those two commands are the essense of the entire old Testament.
All that crap about what's clean or unclean, cooking kids or charging interest, really doesn't matter in comparison to whether you love God and your neighbor.
So, given all that, why did I say we should all be following the ten commandments? The ten commandments are practical advice about practical expressions of that love. Why a stricter version? It's not enough to merely ``not kill'': if we love our neighbors, we won't even wish they were dead. You can follow the letter of the ten commandments perfectly, and still fall far short of following their spirit.
See what I've been reading.