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Programming Jobs Losing Luster in U.S.
alphapartic1e writes "Yahoo! News writes "The U.S. software industry lost 16 percent of its jobs from March 2001 to March 2004, the Washington-based Economic Policy Institute found. The Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that information technology industries laid off more than 7,000 American workers in the first quarter of 2005. Gartner researchers say most people affiliated with corporate information technology departments will assume "business-facing" roles, focused not so much on gadgets and algorithms but corporate strategy, personnel and financial analysis. "If you're only interested in deep coding and you want to remain in your cubicle all day, there are a shrinking number of jobs for you," said Diane Morello, Gartner vice president of research.""
I wonder which company paid for Gartner's study. The software industry is just waiting to drop wages for programmers, I bet.
One more word: Scapegoat
Yeah granted jobs are going to lower-income economies. Economic-darwinism will win there in the long run in one of two ways.
1. Their quality of life [and therefore pay] will raise
2. The companies they produce software for will faulter as the quality diminishes.
Sadly #2 is less likely as the level of QA expected from the average consumer is zero [e.g. Windows XP].
If you want to secure your future in the comp.sci world make yourself useful. And sadly "knowing ASP" is not useful enough. If you mixed in say DSP, compiler theory or cryptography or something like that you'd stand a chance.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
What was considered IT back the good old days of the 20th century was information Technology, with the emphasis on Technology. But after attempting to build an economic structure purely on technology we fond out the old rules are still in place and valid, and technology is only one of many tools in the business arsenal. As well the average person is becoming more computer savvy, so jobs like "computer operator" are becoming passé. Now that we have the Technology to enhance information, and it is affordable and easy to use, we now have to Manage our Information Systems to make all this cool stuff actually work right and also fit in the business needs. Sure Video conferencing is cool and all but does it actually help improve profit, No, not really. Or a high end Cisco network for 20 computers, nope that is not profitable either. IT workers are not supposed to be separated from the business that they work for they are part of it and they are being paid to help the company not just worried about tiny technical details. If it takes you twice as long to make a mid size program 50% faster, It would be cheaper to buy a computer that is twice as fast, and run your slower program on that and still have increased speeds. These are the issues business faces. Business don't want people who get loss in the technology they want people who know technology who also know how to use it to improve their business bottom line.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
If it is anything like my company, the greatly under-staffed product development folks that have survived downsizing.
My team used to be 50 people, now it is only 3 people doing the work of about 15. Very fustrating not only for my team, but also for the business folks that don't understand why it takes so long to get things done anymore.
I wonder how many of those programming jobs 'lost' were actually promotions to managerial positions, and the vacancies left behind were farmed out?
I'm an American programmer. (and honestly, not a very good one at that)
Where is the demand for people like me? It only remains in a few places. The biggest one is government. It will be a cold day in hell when local, state, or federal governments start outsourcing their work. I personally work for state government and we have no shortage of things to do (well right now I am not doing anything but hey....)
The legacy databases and system which run the government at it's varying levels is slowly gettign moved from old systems to new ones and that is where you get work as a programmer.
Granted I could and have made more in the private sector, but there is nothing like the job security of government work.
I beg to differ. This is why I haven't started my own buisness yet (this and being risk-adverse). I would spend too much time messing around with business crapola, which is what I don't like. I just don't see how you could have a successfull small business without selling your "product".
The only reason I can (mostly) do this ("deep code" and stay in my cubicle all day) is there is someone down the hall selling our "product".
I wish/hope I am wrong.
room101 -- how much can you stand before they break you?
(they always break you eventually)
"Actually, if this describes you, and you are creative and business savvy to boot, then you are perfectly suited for starting up your own software business."
:-)
I'm a programmer, like many of you. I develop my own Open Source systems and have done so for the past five years. After being shut down by employer after employer for stupid reasons, I finally got smart about it.
My last experience was the clincher. This company will remain anonymous because they are dirty enough to go after me and tie me up in court if they ever found out I was talking about them negatively. They hired me as a full time contract employee to develop a project management system for them and some other projects like an online mapping system. They started me at contracting wages which are a bit higher than full-time-contract wages -- for the reason that I would be paid more frequently and would not have to wait so long between paycheques if I took full-time-contract instead of contract. Like many other fools out there, I took a pay cut and they paid me more frequently -- for a while. I traded my value for job security. DUMB MOVE!!!
They laid me off when I finished my project and their cheques continued to bounce until I finally managed to certify the last one a full two months after I was laid off. My employer knew all along that I would be sacked on completion of my project, so it was intentional.
So how do these companies expect us to handle this? We are going to get smart and we are going to get powerful until we can do as we please. Vocation == Vacation.
So I guess you can say I was left with a bit of an edge after that experience.
We all need job security and that sort of thing for our families, but we also need to create that security ourselves -- nobody is going to do it for us.
My Ace of Spades is to have a project going that is mine alone and fund it through my own employment and extra-curricular activities.
I've switched to full-on entrepreneurial activity with a NEW company.
I am being paid right now to provide solutions to the company I work for and yet the company has signed off that they will not own the solutions but that they will be able to use them in their current state -- FOREVER.
They are okay with this because they can get me a lot cheaper than if they were to actually OWN the systems I build. Exclusivity is expensive and I have told them that if they want to exclusively own my project they will have to come to the table with a very big offer. Huge offer, I said.
What they really wanted was to have solutions to problems and with my troubleshooting experience (10 years), I am able to help them and they are able to help me. Symbiosis!
Are you unemployed or just ready to do something special with your talent? I want to talk to you.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
Some of us really are nerds at heart and strive to learn new "Stuff that matter" ;).
We are trying to hire experienced C/C++ developers in the PDX area, and they are really (really) difficult to find. The truth is, that in 95% of the cases, good software engineers already have a job. Outsourcing might have made the lack of jobs for non experienced developers bigger, even if the level of quality you get from outsourcing is even lower than the one you might have got if you'd have given jobs in USA. In a few words, outsourcing stinks, and we better off importing the 1% of good developers they have oversee, and leave the remaining 99% junk in the wild. You get what you pay for dude, and the company I'm currently working with, is crudely facing this reality.
This is only bad for the software developers. Many CS folks use software instead of creating it. You can still make money doing this and Open source gives you a very broad portfolio of applications to choose from.
There are many businesses here that need to get jobs done, and software packages (free or otherwise) almost always need to be tweaked and customized before money will change hands. If you want to do software in the US, this is where you should aim for. Either that or try to get hooked up to a research organization.
But "software development" is largely a "grunt job" for most business applications, and will be sent to the lowest bidder.
Remember, You are unique...just like everyone else.
American workers are very expensive to hire, often too expensive to justify. A decent chunk of it is caused by politically correct bullshit like pushing for diversity over qualification
I'm sorry, I'm all for Libertarian ideals, but the reason Americans are so expensive to hire is because our lifestyle is way out of proportion with most of the world. This all worked great in the past where there were significant barriers to international trade (language, economic, cultural, distance, etc), but as travel and communications technology improves, globalization becomes inevitable. It has nothing to do with politicians at all, everything is run by business, and that's not going to change any time soon.
The fact of the matter is that Americans are better off by slowly venting jobs to 3rd world countries than attempting to hold off the inevitable through isolationist policies which would eventually lead to some forcible revolt against us. Rich people live in fear of losing what they have, but what they (and we) need to realize that global stability requires some basic economic balance. I'm not talking socialism, just let the free markets sort things out.
Meanwhile, for those of us getting laid off, quit bitching and recognize your advantage! In most places, starting a business is impossible because there isn't enough money around for a sustained customer base. In America all you need is a salesperson and a half-decent idea.
Hmmm.. US has largest growth in Software Patents; US has shrinking software industry.
<sarcasm>No connection, surely?</sarcasm>
I wonder how the employment rate for lawyers employed by US software companies is doing? That would make interesting reading.
*--BigMan--- Time flies like an arrow.. but personally I prefer a nice glass of wine!
I need to critique my own post a bit once I read the article. The article is actually more reasonable the n the post. Yeah, lots of programmers are getting into the business side as well. That's probably a good thing for the programmers, the businesses and the software produced.
I discussed this in detail in this article. The combination of offshoring, issues with the business cycle and corporate sponsored immigration policy is deadly. Just in case you thought the H-1b issue was over, there are _still_ over 65,000 visas per year being issued(the ones at major universities are exempt from the cap)-about half of which are for IT workers. On top of that there are L-1 visas that are specified in trade agreements like the recent Singapore Chile Free Trade Act that lock the US into substantial numbers of L-1 visas. An industry that is creating no jobs for Americans has no need for these visas.
Next month I will have been a programmer for 40 years. This is not the first bust I've seen in programming employment, but I'm not sure this is a cyclical change as much as a structural change. The task cannot continue "as is" in the face of advancing technology. Thirty-five years ago there were predictions of software being written by software, and we're on the verge of a BIG explosion of software. (Just look at all the submissions at Freshmeat.)
However, there is a severe shortage of thinkers. Face it, any moron can write code, even good code, if the design is done well enough. But if 9 out of 10 software projects in the US are cancelled before completion (apparently due to cost overruns and design problems), then there is a tremendous pent-up demand for good, creative design implemented in affordable software! The new possibilities that could be addressed by a multitude of programmers freed from writing accounting reports and database forms could change our world in terrific ways!
Unfortunately, the low education level in the US has produced a bunch of code peasants without the vision to use the tools they now have. These are persons whose main interest is getting a paycheck and going home to the bottle or TV.
It took 40 years for the railroad to substantially change our lives. Same thing, 40 years, for electricity, automobiles and aircraft. Don't cry for buggy-whip code jobs. Those are something we had to get through to get to the chance for jetliner opportunities. Larry Ellison said (back in '96) that computing power had increased a millionfold in the last 20 years, and if it continued like that for another 20 years it would produce a future he couldn't even imagine. Back in '79, when Cincom Systems was building one of the best database managers to run on IBM mainframes, they had presentation that included this one fact: Back in 1940 the telephone companies had all the technology necessary to handle all the telephone calls made in 1979, but it would have taken every man, woman and child older than 14 in New York City to handle the calls! (Anyone else remember the days when you picked up the phone and got an operator? Oh, wait...there are places like that in Argentina and India.) Routine jobs will always be downsized, eliminated or automated, and any job becomes routine with progress. Some researchers are predicting huge unemployment in the unskilled labor market in 25 years. Robotic machinery will handle routine skills like cooking fast food, housework, framing homes, etc., but somebody will have to build and design those machines. I say we have a great opportunity to get there before the Chinese! I say , "Bring on the automated programming!" There is no end to the things I could build if didn't have to hire lazy, unreliable and expensive wetware to do the routine tasks.
"The mind works quicker than you think!"
Isn't there a critical shortage of us?
Aren't we supposed to be driving kids into this stuff, like they are in high school, regardless of the interests of the student.
Isn't this always going to be a great career?
WHile some of it is just off shoring, the other aspect is automation. First realize that the main role of IT is to automate, and that includes programming tasks. While software quality is not where it should be, the tools we have now; in terms of application tools, development tools and OS; are much better than they were 10 years ago. Hence you have greater productivity. Even MS has improved.
The trend is more toward selecting commercial off the shelf products which meet business needs (which require business process modeling and requirments gathering) rather than in-house applications or hiring a vendor to create an application. This is where the 'business facing' aspect comes in.
One good analogy I can come up with is the railroad industry. Up unitl about the late 1940's each railroad often built their own steam engines. Each engine was specialized to a specific task such as narrow gauge, long haul express, high speed passenger, locals etc. To support this you had mechanical shops with hundreds or even thousands of metal workers, boiler makers, welders etc. Then along came diesel electric trains and all those jobs dissappeared to be replaced by a few diesel mechanics and electricians, and some mechinical and electrical engineers to design and refine the engines.
It is heading the same way. You will have people working on the business end defining requirements. Sometimes they will find COTS software and technicians will paste it together with some, but not much cutomization (and then OUTSIDE of the application). In some cases a custom job will be needed and so high end programmers who are good at solving new problems may come in. But the numbers will drop. It is inevitable as the industry matures.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Offshoring is a fad, like bellbottom jeans. Even Sony offshored their volunteer customer support reps because paying Indians to do the in-game customer support was more fashionable than free guides (who only got a free subscription and free expansions). There is no rational business reason that actually paying someone wages can be cheaper than a bunch of suckers/slaves who got $13/month for 6+ hours per week of unpaid labor (oh, go ahead and laugh at me for being a guide for 2 years). Yet that is why offshoring is done: it looks good in the press, no matter if it screws the business bottom line and the country's bottom line.
Err from my post... (If you have torrett sindrome or something like that, people would understand)
If you are diagnosed with tourette syndrome, and people in your buisness know about it, they usually learn to live with it and learn to listen between the curses. They probably wont have you in the same meeting with the CEO but as long as you are tring to work for the buisness and go beyond programming you should be OK. Besides most companies are afraid to fire people with disibilites.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
e.g.
U SD&to=INR&amt=1&t=5y
http://finance.yahoo.com/currency/convert?from=
The dollar has lost around 20% of it's value against the Indian Rupee over the last 5 years. Americans are now 20% cheaper to employ compared to Indians than they were 5 years ago.
That trend's going to continue until it isn't worth offshoring anything anymore. In the meantime the US standard of living hasn't changed much. The Indian standard of living has increased substantially, it'll continue increasing and they'll continue getting more expensive.
China is a problem. The problem with China is that they fix their exchange rate to the dollar.
Compare the Chinese chart with the Indian chart:
U SD&to=CNY&amt=1&t=5y
http://finance.yahoo.com/currency/convert?from=
This is why all the manufacturing has headed to China, guaranteed lower costs, for as long as the exchange rate is fixed.
You say they'll just offshore to the next cheapest country, well it's not that simple, language and education are huge barriers. The Indians have the language thanks to the British Empire and they have the education, it's easy offshoring there. The Chinese have the education but not the language, offshoring service jobs there is far more difficult. Most of the other developing countries have neither.
The key will be to get the Chinese government to allow the Yuan to float on international currency markets. International pressure on China to do this is rising.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
And what do you expect? People are ridiculed for living with their parents. Mass transit is a chicken-and-egg situation where both the chicken and the egg failed to appear. Health insurance costs rise at a rate that far outstrips any other cost of living index, and the leading alternative (pre-tax funded health expense accounts) are largely untrusted because by and large, the money deducted from the worker's paycheck to fund the account isn't paid back to the worker if it's not used.
But let's say I gave up all that. I live with my parents, carpool to work, and use a medical expense account rather than propping up the ridiculously expensive insurance racket. Do I get employed, or when I walk into a $40k/yr job, am I dismissed as "overqualified"?
Fixes need to be made on both sides of the line. Americans can learn to live with less pay, but it won't matter if companies don't start rejoicing and welcoming professionals aboard when qualified people start accepting less pay.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
The US standard of living hasn't changed a lot but it will *sometime soon*, and that's because the US consumer (and government for that matter) has been on a massive credit binge. Credit based on equity in their homes primarily. There's a reason that the congress lately passed a law severely limiting bankruptcy for private individuals, and that's because these credit issuers smell it coming, bigtime. it's just math after all..
A lot of people now are so strapped, but still wanting to maintain an illusion of prosperity, that they have no principal mortgages,and are only paying interest in perpetuity on those notes hoping that sometime they can sell out and still make something, and that is only because of the unrealistic bloated housing bubble.
The old expression "eating the seed corn" when starving people ate the seeds they needed for next years crop in thew winter, is also similar to a blue collar tradesman pawning his tools on friday night. Rich for the weekend, come monday he's hurting, then no way to go from there, no work. We've pawned our tools by offshoring still useful jobs. We (the fatcat bosses "we") are in that "rich for the weekend" phase right now. That's our economy, and they keep destroying or transferring wealth producing jobs in exchange for wealth re-arranging jobs.
It is unsustainable in the medium and long term, and it will cause a severe economic crash, especially once the flight from the petrodollar picks up more speed as masses of foreigners realise that they will get stuck with worthless paper IOUs. But the people (high level business leaders and politicians) doing it could care less, they will have gotten theirs ahead of time and probably look forward to being mega-rich in a US reduced to second world nation status, as they can enjoy the lifestyle they now have to travel overseas for, ie, the ultimate power over other humans lifestyle, with all that that entails.
That's my take on it anyway. It's planned to happen this way on purpose.
Just curious...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I see people are quick to point at the blame-of-the-month, outsourcing, but without really looking at how things got this way.
See, if there were tons of software jobs out there to begin with, outsourcing would be just a drop in the ocean. But the demand for software isn't increasing. Why not?
Well, try the fact that the only software that's profitable to make is already made by one company that dominates the industry, and its only competitors are open-source freeware.
You're shaking your head. "Another Slashdot anti-Microsoft idiot," you say, as you point your mouse towards the -1 moderation dialogue. Well, so what new e-mail program/web browser/media player/operating system/spreadsheet/word processor/other commonly-used application have you written lately that wasn't Microsoft's or free?
And it's not just Microsoft; look at the game industry consolidation, where a handful of companies dominate. Or graphics, where there were once dozens of companies making PC graphics cards there's now only two major ones (and the occasional intel chipset). Throughout the industry, you're either with the Big Company or you're out of luck. There's no competition outside of webspace, and even that is consolidating.
Or you're saying, "But all those new jobs in a competitive market would be outsourced, too!" Well, only if there's enough supply to meet the demand; if not, the cost of outsourcing rises (including the decrease in quality as fourth-rate engineers are pressed into service to meet the demand) and outsourcing is no longer an issue.
No, we need to bust up the monopolies, for real this time. It's bad for you and me because it means fewer jobs for you and me. It's bad for your boss because it means single-source suppliers can throttle your boss for every dime he has.
It's just another cost of sponsoring a monopoly: Your job.
Think about that the next time you want to buy a word processor.
...blue collar guy. In the past couple of decades and change I lost two factory jobs that got shipped overseas. Swell,did the ole "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" thing and went into construction. Had to keep dropping my bids down to about zilch, as I couldn't compete in the area I was in with illegal aliens living a dozen to a single bedroom apartment basically. Moved, it happened again. Finally it was so stupid to do it I just stopped doing it, couldn't even afford to keep my tools and gear in shape.. Swell, went into the tradeshow business doing display set up, watched the labor pool get filled quickly to beyond what was needed as so many blue collar guys who had lost their regular jobs got into it, then the dotcom bubble burst, knocking out a lot of the big booths and shows. Then I got hurt on the job and went broke as I recuperated over 6 months time.
Swell, now I am a farm worker and am watching NAFTA and GATT destroy agriculture, as farmers try to compete with regions that have about zero environmental laws, etc. They don't put up with that "save the flying three eyed newt so screw you mr. farmer, eat it raw" stuff overseas, in those areas like South America, etc where we have to compete internationally. The only thing that is marginally "saving" ag is the cost of oil is making international transpo more expensive, and that's it. A couple more "free trade" globalisation moves and laws, that's it, all she wrote, buh bye US ag. The multinational agcos are screwing everyone, they don't care,they just want you locked into their seed and packing house and distribution channels, and it don't matter to them if you name is Bubba, Jose, Abdul, N'kummah or Apu, they are equal opportunity screwers. It's near impossible to be an independent now. And it's a catch 22, if the dollar drops, stuff costs more but ag stuff can still sell,but people don't have enough of the dollars to make it worth while, if the dollar goes up, more overall jobs are lost, but what is left can be exported, but the people overseas still won't want anything higher priced than what they can do at home. So that point is moot as well. If the dollar drops oil and energy goes up, which means your cost of productyion goes up past what you can charge realistically, ag is severely energy dependent. And foreign nations don't really want our crap anyway, no GM foods, but that's about all the big agcos are pushing.
You tell me what the fix is because I don't know. I'm competing the best I can, but comes a point you just can't compete with people who can live on 50 bucks a month someplace else. You can't do that in the US. I can re-late to the white collars going through the same thing now, just got many years head start on them, same as millions of other blue collars and I can guarantee you that us guys warned you guys starting years ago it was going to come to you big bucks guys sometime, because the boss class is *the same*, no matter what industry you are in. If you in the US making a middle class salary are replaceable overseas for 1/5th the money or less, they will do it, end of story. Those guys are into it for the short term huge money then get out, they *don't care at all* what happens to you. politicians, globalist business bosses, those guys. what they say and what they do are different, pay attention to only what they do and what happens eventually and you can clearly see it.
In the IT world I have no idea other than to go independent and contract and take any job you can get, bank the loot and/or get out of debt totally as quickly as possible.
Me, I own some solar PV but don't own any big home theater system. We have at least two years of simple food on hand, but I don't go out and blow my cash on movies or entertainments anymore. I can see what's coming and decided on some priorities.
When I grew up I talked to a lot of adults who lived through the great depression. It was bad then but tolerable for people as long as they had the necessities of food/water/shelter, etc. City people really got na
Heck the demise of the dot-com boom is enough to explain that, and in just the right time period too.
It remains to be seen if outsourcing means the US is getting out of the programming business, or just that the boring jobs are getting outsourced only to be replaced with more creative ones. And short-term small changes like this can be adequately explained by the business cycle.
I can tell that, from personal experience, that a big hunk of programmers out there bailed on math ASAP in school. Many of them can't even put an upper bound on many algorithms.
I worked for one company where one of the senior people was asking candidates to give the big-O running time of reading a character from a file and putting it in a buffer repeatedly until EOF. When the buffer is full, you double the size of the buffer.
The guy *ASKING* the question had the wrong answer (which I'll leave as an exercise for the reader). Leaving the fact that this guy was being a tool aside, he was trying to find people who could work through the problem. Most of the candidates couldn't even get started, let alone make a coherent argument that he was incorrect.
As to why the skills are rare, I don't think that it's all that rare it's just that the HR filtering does not increase the likelyhood that a particular screened candidate is a fit. So, there's a lot of chaff for the hiring manager to sort through.
It's why most of the people I know hire past coworkers first then from trusted headhunters then from the pool of HR resumes last.
You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake -- but you could be if you got off your ass.
No, we need to bust up the monopolies, for real this time.
In America? You propose Federal Anti-Trust actions, in this day and age? Just when we're getting used to Patriot III or whatever? I think you overestimate our chances.
Just as a thought experiment, let's assume (o noble dreamers) that there exists some possibility, however slim, of breaking up large, vigorous monopolies -- specifically Microsoft.
Under this assumption, I recommend an alternate approach: nationalizing the source code. For the good of the country, you understand. Similar to the manner in which Presidents of past centuries have said Coal is a national priority, this strike is illegal, your union is busted, you men get back to work.
But that's just a thought experiment. I think a better approach is abandoning all hope of doing good deeds at the Federal level
-kgj
-kgj
Here's a much better idea: start up a large number of small micro-businesses. What do I mean? Simple. Create small, individual niche products and sell them via the web. Then, sell tie-ins, like swag. While you're at it, start writing books about the tools you used to create your niche products. And on the side, do tech support in your neighborhood. Pick up surplus computers, fix them up and sell them at a small profit, or combine them with open-source software to help small businesses get computerized.
If you have any capital, or you can get a mortgage, buy a laundromat or cafe and turn it into a wi-fi hotspot that offers computer-related services (for cash, of course). Charge by the hour. Rent out server space. Become a mini-ISP. Do a bulletin board.
In general, think of a dozen small, modest things you can do as an individual without having to start up a whole company, and make your living THAT way. Go totally, unabashedly rogue.
Think about it.
Farewell! It's been a fine buncha years!
Is it I, or did a great number of "questionable" technology professionals enter the programming field between 1998-2000? Is that not when history majors, Taco Bell workers, and bus drivers thought "programming" had luster and these .bomb companies hired them to developer E-commerce applications? .bomb wave and it makes it tough to filter them out until you interview them. They usually pass the "I did everything" on the resume test. I have faith that "good", creative problem solving programmers are and will always be needed.
My question is, didn't that hurt true computer scientists and information technologists? We have recently be interviewing many candidates to fill some technical positions, finding qualified candidates is difficult because we are still getting those folks that tried to ride the
>
Wrong. Now that the tech industry is gone, there are no new major jobs industries in America except the old school mcjobs at Wal Mart.
We're at the end of the job evolution chain at this point. Biotech is a dead end. Alternative energy is a dead end. Both are being outsourced and automated.
Offshoring means 6 billion people are competing for a few hundred million jobs. There'll never be an employee's market again, anywhere on Earth.
I'd like to see what new jobs are coming. So far libertarians have been unable to answer that question.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
...actually go out of business that way. They start hiring illegals, take them to all their jobs. the guys pay attention and learn the trade. Then they go off and undercut them and take their clients. Sure, that's the "american way", but it's still weird because they do it by skirting laws, violating local housing regs, etc and the government gives them a skate on it. And they do some other sleazy stuff, here's an example. When home depot first opened up, I was one of the first people at their first store, getting there early to get supplies before going to work. After some time I noticed something, the customer service desk started to get a big line in the morning, with illegals returning worn out hardware and demanding replacements. I was flabbergasted, the stuff wasn't new and defective, it was clapped out, but to avoid charges of "racism" Home Depot just sucked it up and gave them new tools! They do this over and over again. Myself, I just would never do anything this skanky. I guess HD just figures it's a cost of business to them, but all the customers pay for it in the long run.
Outsourcing to India is a GREAT idea for the US software industry. While most of the Indian techs seem to do good work, there is usually such a cultural and language barrier, the chance of a project coming off without missing functionality or missed features is nearly 0%. The company I work for learned their lesson with foreign outsourcing. They still hire consultants or contractors, but they are all local folks now.
It's funny because 10 bucks and hour looks sooo damn good on paper, management will usually take the risk of destroying the relationship with a client over the huge margins.
Karma means nothing to me, so suck it...