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Wired Strongarms Subscribers?
yali writes "Wired has apparently been sinking to some rather low tactics with ex-subscribers. Namely, siccing a collections agency on them. If you let your subscription run out, you might get one of these. Nerds beware." From the article: "First came the usual letters warning McMillan, 36, that his subscription was up and that he wouldn't get any more copies of Wired unless he ponied up some cash. Then Wired's correspondence took a different turn. In May, McMillan received a letter from North Shore Agency, a leading debt-collection firm. The letter, headed 'Please Respond,' said he owed $12 for his Wired subscription."
I just cancelled my subscription.
It is your responsibility to read your subscription agreement.
If you agree to a renewing subscription and do not pay it, you have only yourself to blame.
If you ignore any request for payment from any company even if its fraudulent you again have only yourself to blame if you do not challenge it.
Vermifax
Logout
He was on automatic renewal and didn't know it. Moral: read the fine print before sending the subscription card in.
Poster - could you make Wired sound any more evil? Or did you
not read their explanation either.
I've seen this tactic before. The 'collection agency' in question barely even exists, and certainly has no teeth. It's simply a very shady tactic, used by several magazines, to trick people into subscribing - sometimes they'll even send these notices to people who have never subscribed. Just garbage the letter and you'll be fine.
Paul Anderson
"I drank WHAT?!" -- Socrates
What's new here? The fact that Wired (or rather, an agent of Wired) does this? People have received letters like this from other magazines for decades. I wouldn't be suprised if Wired has been sending these out for the last 10 years.
In all honesty, Wired probably doesn't manage their subscription service. They hire some 3rd party to do it for them.
I remember when PC Gamer, Next Generation, Boot, etc used to send these out all the friggen time--- TO CHILDREN!
I don't like it either. It's one reason I only have 2 magazine subscriptions. The other companies have pissed me off...
94% of Repubs and 21% of Dems voted to renew the Patriot Act
They don't have your SSN, which means no matter what they say, they cannot do jack to your credit report.
If you are not sure of this or don't believe, simply go ask for a free copy of your credit report at Experian, Transunion, or whatever the third one was. Just say you're credit was used fraudulently, which they'll put your credit on alert (a good damned thing if you ask me) and send you a free report.
Don't sweat it, they just sound tough but can't do a single thing. If they do have your credit card number or bank number and then charge without your permission, you can get it back, just go to whatever got charged and dispute it.
Really, they can't do a thing, people just give in because it sounds all scary.
See: http://www.wired.com/news/feedback/
For new Wired magazine subscriptions e-mail subscriptions@wiredmag.com or call 800-SOWIRED (800-769-4733) inside the U.S. and Canada or 303-678-0354 from all other countries. Hey, it's a free call on their dime!
Public Relations, for a good time contact:
Kathy O'Reilly, Kathy.O'Reilly@lycos-inc.com,
Direct#: 781-370-3454
Snail Mail Wired News
660 3rd Street, 1st Floor
San Francisco, CA 94107
For the VoIP users:
Phone: 415-276-8400
Fax: 415-276-8500
If the letter is regarding legit debt, like an overdue credit card bill, then they can continue to send you letters and/or call you, within certain limits.
If you reply in writing that you don't believe that the debt is legit, as in they say you owe them for a mag subscription, but you never signed up for such, they have to stop pending further investigation. Usually, it ends here.
Know your rights, and don't be afraid to push back. Even if a collection agency is after you for legit debt, there are limits to what they are allowed to do.
This Wired thing, on the other hand, is bogus. It's just a "renew, please!" letter written to said vaguely legally threatening.
Tom
I don't see what's the big deal. Dealing with collection agencies is very easy. Just write a simple letter giving the "account number" from the agency's dunning letter, and stating that you dispute the debt, that you request proof of the debt, and that you don't want to be contacted by telephone in writing.
Then, pay three bucks to send the letter by certified mail with return receipt. Unless you owe a lot of money, and the collection agency has some real paperwork to prove that, this is the last time you'll hear from them. The certified mail receipt makes sure that you can burn their ass off if they ever try to bother you again for no reason.
Although some might baulk at the three bucks, just keep in mind that it costs the collection agency more than that to send the letter off and process your response (someone has to go in, look up your account number in their system, and mark it off).
If everyone did that, the collection agencies will quickly go out of business.
Now check out what North Shore Agency promisses their customers,
The limits of liability are galling:
What can you do if you believe a debt collector violated the law? You have the right to sue a collector in a state or federal court within one year from the date from the date the law was violated. If you win, you may recover money for the damages you suffered plus an additional amount up to $1000. Court costs and attorneys fees also can be recovered. A group of people also may sue a debt collector and recover money for damages up to $500,000, or one percent of the collectors net worth, whichever is less.
So how many thousands of dollars can be made by abusing thousands of people? Yet the limit is $500,000. Disgusting.
I'm sure I've only scraped the tip of the iceburg here. I've never been served one of these letters and am unaware of anything on my own credit record. Be aware however that bad credit will cost you dearly when you try to buy a car, house or anything else you can't buy outright. Is that teeth enough for you?
If this story is true, it's deplorable. Wired is not, I hope, so stupid as to burn the world's good will $12 at a time.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
"Collection agencies have absolutely NO teeth at all, they only thing they can do is send you scary looking letter and perhaps a few threatening phone calls...."
Well, most of them pack a little more punch than that. However, you have to realize that there is a difference between a $12 debt and a $12,000 debt.
After having to deal with the idiots at Paypal in one of these cases, here are a few things that I've learned. I feel it's kind of important to note that I'm not an expert, I didn't go to school for any of this, and your results may vary. I'm just giving you information straight from the gift-horse, if you will. Also, this should only be used for small debts. If you're not aware that there is a difference between $200 and $20,000, then you're probably in this situation for a reason.
1. When the debt collection agency calls you or send you a letter, the most important thing is to keep your cool. Don't freak out.
2. If they call you by phone, absolutely under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you continue speaking over the phone. Basically, if they call you, they should identify themselves, and then next words out of your mouth should be, "I only wish to communicate via postal mail." Say nothing else. Do not admit you have debt. Do not admit that you don't have a debt. Don't deny anything, don't even tell them your name. Just say, "I only wish to communicate via postal mail", wait for a response, and hang up--if they try and push, just keep repeating that line. If the continue calling you after that, you can then take them to small claims court.
3. Eventually, you will get a letter from them asking you to cough up the money. You'll probably have XX amount of days to reply to the letter that they send you. Do NOT just throw away the letter and pretend these people will go away. If you don't reply, then they can start pulling out their big guns (e.g. listing wonderful stuff on your credit report, etc). Basically, you have two roads you can take at this point. You can either choose to pay, or you can try your luck at bullshitting out of your debt. If you did nothing wrong, or if the debt is for, say, less than $1,000, use the latter. If your in some pretty hefty debt, I can't really tell you what to do in that case. Anyways, if you choose route number two, send a written letter along these lines (set it up as a business letter, I know you know how to!):
"To Whom It May Concern:
I have received your collection letter regarding the $[DOLLAR_AMOUNT] that you claim I owe. This is my response to that claim.
I am formally disputing the validity of this debt in its entirety. Please forward me complete copies of all documentation that you and [COMPANY] have to verify this debt. You have 30 days from the date of this letter to send me complete copies of all documentation, otherwise I will consider this debt to be completely invalid and all further collection efforts must cease immediately.
Sincerely,
[NAME_HERE]"
When you send your letter in response to the debt collection letter you receive, be sure to make a copy of it. Also send the letter registered with return receipt requested. Take the letter to the post office, and get the letter registration receipt postmarked, save the receipt from the post office, and save the return receipt when you get it. KEEP EVERYTHING. If you do end up going to court, then you can use all this documentation against them.
Once they receive the letter, they then have 30 days to send you all the documentation that proves you owe the money. In this letter, do NOT include any information, statements other than what I said, what happened, what you have done, or anything else. KEEP IT SIMPLE. Actually, I'd suggest just copying and pasting that letter.
If after 45 days you havn't gotten a response, your debt is gone. There is nothing further that they can do to force you to pay the money, including listing the debt on your credit report, etc. By not responding they have said (accord
At least I can use them to light a fire if I need to . Let's see you kids do that with your fancy email spam that's all the rage these days.
We're all about automation now, my email server automatically lights on fire when I get get my fancy email spam.
Beat that.
This is a great idea. Another side benefit is, you get to see which magazines are selling your info to junk mail lists or signing you up for random catalog. And then you won't feel bad not paying your bill, because you'll know that Wired already made a killing selling your name and address to the highest bidders.
Yes, deliquencies lower your score quite a bit - even one. You can however fight back.
You can file a dispute. The credit agencies will take things off unless the creditor/debt collection agency validates the debt. Federal Law: Fair Credit Reporting Act
If they do - and it is invalid - they just violated the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. $1000 civil penalty, payable to you. Just putting it on your credit is likely an offense ($1000). 3 credit agencies, so if they play full hard ball, you can end up collecting $6000.
If you didn't renew - the issues that come to you are unsolicited. Federal law says you may not be billed for unsolicited mail.
KNOW THE LAW.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
The "Drop Dead Letter": clicky
Fine Print: IANAL, IANAA (I am not an American)
There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men. -- Boondock Saints
I've seen a few people here claim something to the extent of "it's his own fault, he should have read the fine print" and personally I have to say that's garbage. We live in a society that is absolutely inundated with "fine print". You almost can't avoid it no matter where you go. Much of it is confusing and hard to understand. To make matter worse, a good portion is repetitive info reworded slightly from "fine print" to "fine print" thus worsening the signal to noise ratio drastically.
Since the vast majority of people aren't lawyers (and probably lack the reading comprehension skills needed to read at that level); we can't expect people to thoroughly read through every single EULA, magazine subscription "fine print", etc. in order to know if any of the many convoluted, "lawyer speak", terms will screw you over in the end. This leaves average people to do exactly what most people do right now which is to "gloss over" "fine print" and hope for the best. In this particular case, Wired magazine took what would otherwise be generic "fine print" and slipped in a term radically different from what is the generally accepted method for handling magazine subscriptions. I feel that this should be looked upon as, at least, unethical and should, quite possibly, be considered fraudulent behavior.
What it boils down to is that we need to decide what kind of society we want to live in. Do we want to live in a society where the only way you can avoid being fleeced by big business is to be a lawyer who devotes a large portion of his/her free time to religiously reading the "fine print" to every single product or service he/she buys or signs up for no matter how small or trivial that product or service happens to be? The burden here should fall on the businesses providing the product/service in question.
Individuals have, for the most part, very limited resources (time, money, intellect, etc.) with which to comprehend threats posed by "fine print". If the burden were on the individual then that person would have to expend that effort for every example of "fine print" he/she is exposed to. In comparison, businesses usually have more resources with which to develop "fine print" that doesn't include clauses that aren't generally known and accepted by the community the product/service is being sold in. They only have to expend the overhead once for every product/service they release. Any significantly unusual terms should be listed in a manner that draws attention to it so that potential customers will notice it.
Unfortunately, at the present time, we seem to live in a society that allows large companies (like the ones in the software industry) to create complex licenses like software EULAs that contain clauses hidden away in the middle requiring you to hand over you first born son or all your worldly possessions in exchange for using their newest Operating System. We need to push our government to enact consumer protection laws that stop this kind of abuse.
-GameMater
Rules of Conduct:
#1 - The DM is always right.
#2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
You should have been told when you rented that there are penalties for returning late. Blockbuster is not being "greedy" by expecting you to conform to contract terms.
If you returned the movie on time, their charge is fraudulent (like Wired's). If you were late, suck it up and pay, or let them tarnish your credit.
You are not legally entitled to screw corporations just because they want to screw you.
There was a long standing precedent in the business that established that late fees for movies that had been returned were not collected until the next rental. This precedent had been in place for years, all over the country. Blockbuster decided to deviate from this practice without calling special attention to it, just so they could get a few more cents here and there in "time value of money". This may not be against the law, but I would call it unethical, or at the least, extremely poor customer service.
They lost my business over this issue too. Yes I know they changed this policy eventually, but I'm still not giving them my business again.
I may not be legally entitled to screw corporations that have poor customer service, but I don't have to patronize them either, and I am certainly within my rights to suggest that others shouldn't patronize them either.
I have a policy of paying late fees only if/when I actually go back and rent another movie.
Well, see, there's the problem. Blockbuster doesn't have to respect your policies, but if you rent a movie from them you have to respect theirs.
Actually you will have a hard time getting banks to take ANY third party checks these days. In the normal course of my business I would routinely take third party checks endorsed to me as payment. I would also issue Western Union and Comchek money transfer checks. We also cashed employee paroll checks for our own employees at no cost. My main bank refused to honor any third party checks because of their interpretation of the Patriot Act clause requiring banks to identify the payee on checks. The bank even refused to take in deposit third party payroll checks drawn from the SAME account! We actually pulled our business from this bank and tried three others before we found a bank which would do what we needed.
...and I know just enough about debt collection law to know that I don't know enough to comment much on this. Oh, and that you certainly shouldn't accept legal advice from ANYONE on slashdot. Including me.
The FDCPA, however, generally applies to third-party debt collectors. If I recall correctly, most people simply run afoul of the Act when they fail to include the required "This communication is an attempt to collect a debt. Any information obtained will be used for that purpose blah blah blah" language on the letter. Usually it's because companies/lawyers don't realize the law applies to them and they end up owing a $1000 fine per occurrence.
The FCRA is also a useful tool for consumers to make sure big companies don't bully them around, but at this hour I can't remember enough about it to really post anything resembling an educated comment. However, it's more complicated than the original poster suggests.
However, another very important set of resources available to consumers are state consumer protection laws. Generally you can find these on your state Attorney General's homepage, and there are detailed instructions for nonlawyers about your rights, the notice and filing requirements and deadlines, and pros and cons of filing a complaint with the AG versus filing on your own. Frequently they follow a similar model, and often involve a requirement that before filing suit for consumer protection violations, you provide a demand letter with 30 days' written notice and an opportunity to settle the claim without going to court.
If the question is not "someone says I owe them money and I don't think I do," but rather that "a magazine renewed my subscription without my consent and then attempted to bill me for it," it seems to me that your state AG's webpage would be a good place to start. Usually there are brochures. With pretty pictures.
[ And now for the standard disclaimer: Legal advice is given by an attorney duly admitted to practice law after confidentially and candidly hearing your version of the facts and applying a specialized analysis of the facts and relevant law. This, however, is a silly post on the Internets, and not legal advice. No attorney-client privilege is created with anyone as a result of this post. Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. If legal advice is what you want, go hire a competent lawyer. Don't ask slashdot. ]
What did the rental agreements say prior to the precedent change? That you owed the money or that you owed it before you could rent again? If it's the former, I don't think they were outside their rights in the least to demand it, and I don't think it was particularly unethical. That was money you owed. Probably they started sending collection agencies after people because those who are willing to let a late fee go on that long are either a) not going to rent from them anymore anyway, and thus they don't risk any loss of customer for it or b) were intentionally not renting because they'd have to pay the additional fee. In the case of a, they've lost a customer already, so why not get what's owed by the terms of the contract? In the case of b, they get what's owed and moreover, since the person now has paid their late fee, they may rent again, thus generating revenue.
/think/ Blockbuster, but it's been a long time) and they sent out their goons. He gladly paid, since he figured the collection agency cost them far more than the dollar they were getting back, and he liked the irony of it.
Two anecdotes:
One friend of mine had a dollar late fee somewhere (I
Another time, he had over $50 in late fees to a store called Hastings. He obviously stopped renting there, since he wasn't about to drop $50+rental fee to rent a movie (he actually just BOUGHT movies for the longest time since it was cheaper--yes yes, overall it wouldn't have been but whatever). After over a year had passed, Hastings sent out a clemency note--come in and bring this coupon, and they'll forgive the late fees. This is clearly the way to go, as it gets people back into the store (always a good thing) and moreover, gets rid of their late fees so they'll start renting again. It also generates a bit of goodwill. This is the same store that will amortize your late fee so that you can continue renting without paying a large fee. Generally when I get a late fee, they offer to let me pay $1 per future rental until it's covered. I never bother, preferring to just pay the whole thing, but it's a good business practice, I think.
NSA isn't a real collections agency. About four years ago I was a member of the Scientific American Book Club when I received a bill for three books I never received. I called them up and disputed the bill, but they claimed that it was valid and refused to drop it. I even offered to pay the bill if they'd reship the books (they were good physics texts), but couldn't get them to budge. Since I was already well past my required minimum buy, I just told them to cancel my account.
Almost immediately I started receiving nasty collections letters from the precursor to the North Shore Agency. When I demanded that they stop contacting me, they REFUSED. It turns out that these guys aren't actually a collections agency...they're a billing clearinghouse used by several of the big publishing outfits. They ARE NOT legally a CRA, they CAN NOT place negative information on your credit report, and because they don't actually assume the debt, they can't even sue you for the bill.
Four years later, these idiots still send me nasty letters threatening undefined impending dire consequences every three months or so, but absolutely nothing has happened. I have no negative hits on my credit report, I have never recived a collections call, and no legal action has been attempted by anybody. These guys can bark a lot, but they are completely toothless when it comes time to back up their threats. Considering that my alleged $121 bill is far larger than those being levied against Wired subscribers, I'd guess that they'd go after me long before they go after them.
I quit caring about NSA collection letters a long time ago. My opinion nowadays is that if they want to waste the postage sending me a few letters a year, I'm perfectly content to throw them away with the rest of my junkmail.
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
I have a rather unfortunate financial past, and learned a whole lot of lessons the hard way. A really sad story about going to college, parents not helping, trying to pay your own way, dropping out, winding up unemployed, etc. I will also note that credit cards never enter the picture. Usually past-due utilities, etc. I'm more or less out of the woods, so I'll shared my experiences. As everyone above has said, don't take my word or anyone else's on Slashdot as legal advice. This is simlpy personal experience here.
1. Never pay the collection agency. Never, ever ever ever pay the collection agency. They may have bought the debt, but the fact remains that they are not your debtor (and the law so far has seemed to be on my side on this one, most of the time you can't just say, "you don't owe me anymore, now you owe Bruno over here...", unless you dot all of the right "i"'s and all the right "t"'s, which collection agencies never do.
2. Pull your credit reports and dispute EVERYTHING negative. Don't miss a single one, and watch your wording. Go for duplicate instances first, in the above scenario when the original debtor had the account, they probably reported it, then sold it to a collections agency, who in turn reported it. You aren't allowed to do that, and the FCRA spells it out. They also aren't allowed to re-report that account again, and are liable for damages if they do so.
3. Most collection agencies are lazy and out for a quick buck. 99% of all disputes will result in deletion from your report, because it requires effort on the part of the agency to verify the debt. Effort is too much work, so the mark will come off.
4. Be persistent. If it didn't come off the first time, try another tactic, and dispute it again. Don't give up until it is gone.
5. Pay the government first. This is a "well, duh" now, but it wasn't to me back then. Bankruptcy won't excempt you from debts to the government (Federal Student Loans, for example in my case), and unlike most collection agencies, the government isn't lazy.
6. Don't be intimidated by phone calls. Lump telemarketers and collection agencies in the same bucket, get callerid, and set up an asterisk server if you're so inclined. Don't hesitate to hang up on someone if you hear electrical silence for 1-2 seconds, and in fact, delay saying "Hello" when you first pick up, and listen. If you hear background noise, go ahead and answer. If you hear electrical silence like it is a calling machine waiting for you to anwer to connect you to a "rep", hang up immediately. Or simply don't answer calls from numbers you don't know, or are marked "PRIVATE" or "UNAVAILABLE", then let it roll to your answering machine or voicemail. If it is important, and it is a human being, you'll get the message. If you start getting threatening voicemails (did you set up asterisk?) save all of messages, and make a cd if you must. Tell them off, if they still keep calling, they've violated the law (don't remember which one).
7. Get a stamp made ($12 from Office Max) in red ink that says quite simply "Unsolicited Mail: Return to Sender." Take it with you every day to the mailbox. If it is junk mail, stamp. Collections Agency? Stamp. Be sure to stamp once over your name and address and a couple more for good measure elsewhere to make it legible, stick it all back in the mailbox and throw up the flag. After a while I'm sure you'll get to recognize what messages are from whom. You probably do already.
Wow. Uh...yeah. Never negotiate with terr^H^H^H^H collection agencies. Never never never never.
I don't care who sent them.
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).