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Wired Strongarms Subscribers?
yali writes "Wired has apparently been sinking to some rather low tactics with ex-subscribers. Namely, siccing a collections agency on them. If you let your subscription run out, you might get one of these. Nerds beware." From the article: "First came the usual letters warning McMillan, 36, that his subscription was up and that he wouldn't get any more copies of Wired unless he ponied up some cash. Then Wired's correspondence took a different turn. In May, McMillan received a letter from North Shore Agency, a leading debt-collection firm. The letter, headed 'Please Respond,' said he owed $12 for his Wired subscription."
I just cancelled my subscription.
'wired' alright. Must be some pretty good sh*t too, by the looks :p
The Mothership
cc: attorney general
cc: better business bureau
I'm not paying your fraudulent bill. Stop harassing me.
We already know it's plain stoopid - but isn't 'inertia' selling illegal in the US? If not - why not? (ok, I don't really expect a straight answer to that second question).
The Mothership
So when is Slashdot going to do that with their subscriptions?
It's either on the beat or off the beat, it's that easy.
I moderate therefore I rule!
--
The people who got the letters agreed to a recurring subscription. They had to notify wired to get the subscription canceled.
always read the fine print!
It is your responsibility to read your subscription agreement.
If you agree to a renewing subscription and do not pay it, you have only yourself to blame.
If you ignore any request for payment from any company even if its fraudulent you again have only yourself to blame if you do not challenge it.
Vermifax
Logout
He was on automatic renewal and didn't know it. Moral: read the fine print before sending the subscription card in.
Poster - could you make Wired sound any more evil? Or did you
not read their explanation either.
I've seen this tactic before. The 'collection agency' in question barely even exists, and certainly has no teeth. It's simply a very shady tactic, used by several magazines, to trick people into subscribing - sometimes they'll even send these notices to people who have never subscribed. Just garbage the letter and you'll be fine.
Paul Anderson
"I drank WHAT?!" -- Socrates
What's new here? The fact that Wired (or rather, an agent of Wired) does this? People have received letters like this from other magazines for decades. I wouldn't be suprised if Wired has been sending these out for the last 10 years.
In all honesty, Wired probably doesn't manage their subscription service. They hire some 3rd party to do it for them.
I remember when PC Gamer, Next Generation, Boot, etc used to send these out all the friggen time--- TO CHILDREN!
I don't like it either. It's one reason I only have 2 magazine subscriptions. The other companies have pissed me off...
94% of Repubs and 21% of Dems voted to renew the Patriot Act
I tried a subscription, sent in my cheque. Months go by, cheque not cashed, no mags. I try to call them... has anybody found their phone number? So I email them. They say they never got the cheque. So I send another. Poof, instantly both cheques are cashed, ON THE SAME DAY. Pissed, I email them. Every email I send goes absolutely ignored by Wired, including an attempt to cancel my subscription. So I suffered through two years of Wired. Can't say as I found anything worthwhile in there the whole time. They sent me renewal notices which I ignored just like they ignored me.
As far as I can tell, Wired is just a group of scammers.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
RTFA.
Circumcision is child abuse.
It's pretty easy to never have a problem from magazine companies...just sign up for magazines under a different name than your own...I did it all the time at college. If they don't know your real name, then they can't fraudulently bill you.
I wouldn't even ask, but if you read the article, after it was all said and done, when it was settled he turned down a free subscription still siting "no time to read it".
Seriously, does this guy like, not ever use the bathroom? I know reading in the can isn't for everyone, but damn. He could easily spend five minutes reading several pages every time he needs to drop the kids off at the pool. Unless he's one of those strange guys who goes for the "turbo shit" and like, completes the entire process in under something insane like two minutes including cleaning and belt bulkling...
I really think dude is just full of it. I mean, he probably disliked the magazine and canceled cause of that. There are so many ways to read a magazine...
- 5-10 minutes before you go to sleep.
- While you eat a meal (unless he eats, while driving a truck...)
- Bathroom (as said)
- While doing menal chores such as waiting on clothes to wash/dry etc
No time my ass
Aw Frell this
Let's not forget that Wired would probably have been perfectly happy to continue this tactic, until the SF Chronicle started researching this article.
It's easy to get into the habit of thinking that the media is toothless, but in many ways, the light of publicity can still bring about change for the best.
Did you even read TFA? It clearly states in the section called "Longstanding relationship":
'In any case, Wired has been using North Shore for a number of years. I found some online gripes about the North Shore letters dating back to 2002 (and you can see one of the firm's letters for yourself at http://urbanideas.com/images/nsa.jpg).'
Clearly, the linked image is not the letter that McMillan (the subject of the article) received. Of course, this would only be clear if you actually read the article before posting a negative comment about it's relevance.
They don't have your SSN, which means no matter what they say, they cannot do jack to your credit report.
If you are not sure of this or don't believe, simply go ask for a free copy of your credit report at Experian, Transunion, or whatever the third one was. Just say you're credit was used fraudulently, which they'll put your credit on alert (a good damned thing if you ask me) and send you a free report.
Don't sweat it, they just sound tough but can't do a single thing. If they do have your credit card number or bank number and then charge without your permission, you can get it back, just go to whatever got charged and dispute it.
Really, they can't do a thing, people just give in because it sounds all scary.
See: http://www.wired.com/news/feedback/
For new Wired magazine subscriptions e-mail subscriptions@wiredmag.com or call 800-SOWIRED (800-769-4733) inside the U.S. and Canada or 303-678-0354 from all other countries. Hey, it's a free call on their dime!
Public Relations, for a good time contact:
Kathy O'Reilly, Kathy.O'Reilly@lycos-inc.com,
Direct#: 781-370-3454
Snail Mail Wired News
660 3rd Street, 1st Floor
San Francisco, CA 94107
For the VoIP users:
Phone: 415-276-8400
Fax: 415-276-8500
If the letter is regarding legit debt, like an overdue credit card bill, then they can continue to send you letters and/or call you, within certain limits.
If you reply in writing that you don't believe that the debt is legit, as in they say you owe them for a mag subscription, but you never signed up for such, they have to stop pending further investigation. Usually, it ends here.
Know your rights, and don't be afraid to push back. Even if a collection agency is after you for legit debt, there are limits to what they are allowed to do.
This Wired thing, on the other hand, is bogus. It's just a "renew, please!" letter written to said vaguely legally threatening.
Tom
Blockbuster once called a collections agency on me for a $8.00 late fee. I have a policy of paying late fees only if/when I actually go back and rent another movie. In reality that's exactly what they want, another trip to the store. However calling a collection agency guaranteed that I'd be getting all my future DVDs from Netflix or PirateBay. I don't feel like I owe late fees, unless I wish to check out another DVD. Probably if I read the fine print, I'd realize Blockbuster views late fees differently. However, Blockbuster is on my shitlist forever none-the-less. They could have made more money from me, if they didn't get greedy.
Sending debt collections companies, or the appearance of them should be the last resort for seriously delinquent customers who are basically trying to steal (or are bankrupt). I'm not sure when it started that collections agencies became the guaranteed repeat business tool.
What are you gonna do then, sue them?
They face pissed-off people all the time and have the right tools ( legal tactics ) to handle them.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
I don't see what's the big deal. Dealing with collection agencies is very easy. Just write a simple letter giving the "account number" from the agency's dunning letter, and stating that you dispute the debt, that you request proof of the debt, and that you don't want to be contacted by telephone in writing.
Then, pay three bucks to send the letter by certified mail with return receipt. Unless you owe a lot of money, and the collection agency has some real paperwork to prove that, this is the last time you'll hear from them. The certified mail receipt makes sure that you can burn their ass off if they ever try to bother you again for no reason.
Although some might baulk at the three bucks, just keep in mind that it costs the collection agency more than that to send the letter off and process your response (someone has to go in, look up your account number in their system, and mark it off).
If everyone did that, the collection agencies will quickly go out of business.
Now check out what North Shore Agency promisses their customers,
The limits of liability are galling:
What can you do if you believe a debt collector violated the law? You have the right to sue a collector in a state or federal court within one year from the date from the date the law was violated. If you win, you may recover money for the damages you suffered plus an additional amount up to $1000. Court costs and attorneys fees also can be recovered. A group of people also may sue a debt collector and recover money for damages up to $500,000, or one percent of the collectors net worth, whichever is less.
So how many thousands of dollars can be made by abusing thousands of people? Yet the limit is $500,000. Disgusting.
I'm sure I've only scraped the tip of the iceburg here. I've never been served one of these letters and am unaware of anything on my own credit record. Be aware however that bad credit will cost you dearly when you try to buy a car, house or anything else you can't buy outright. Is that teeth enough for you?
If this story is true, it's deplorable. Wired is not, I hope, so stupid as to burn the world's good will $12 at a time.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
"Collection agencies have absolutely NO teeth at all, they only thing they can do is send you scary looking letter and perhaps a few threatening phone calls...."
Well, most of them pack a little more punch than that. However, you have to realize that there is a difference between a $12 debt and a $12,000 debt.
After having to deal with the idiots at Paypal in one of these cases, here are a few things that I've learned. I feel it's kind of important to note that I'm not an expert, I didn't go to school for any of this, and your results may vary. I'm just giving you information straight from the gift-horse, if you will. Also, this should only be used for small debts. If you're not aware that there is a difference between $200 and $20,000, then you're probably in this situation for a reason.
1. When the debt collection agency calls you or send you a letter, the most important thing is to keep your cool. Don't freak out.
2. If they call you by phone, absolutely under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you continue speaking over the phone. Basically, if they call you, they should identify themselves, and then next words out of your mouth should be, "I only wish to communicate via postal mail." Say nothing else. Do not admit you have debt. Do not admit that you don't have a debt. Don't deny anything, don't even tell them your name. Just say, "I only wish to communicate via postal mail", wait for a response, and hang up--if they try and push, just keep repeating that line. If the continue calling you after that, you can then take them to small claims court.
3. Eventually, you will get a letter from them asking you to cough up the money. You'll probably have XX amount of days to reply to the letter that they send you. Do NOT just throw away the letter and pretend these people will go away. If you don't reply, then they can start pulling out their big guns (e.g. listing wonderful stuff on your credit report, etc). Basically, you have two roads you can take at this point. You can either choose to pay, or you can try your luck at bullshitting out of your debt. If you did nothing wrong, or if the debt is for, say, less than $1,000, use the latter. If your in some pretty hefty debt, I can't really tell you what to do in that case. Anyways, if you choose route number two, send a written letter along these lines (set it up as a business letter, I know you know how to!):
"To Whom It May Concern:
I have received your collection letter regarding the $[DOLLAR_AMOUNT] that you claim I owe. This is my response to that claim.
I am formally disputing the validity of this debt in its entirety. Please forward me complete copies of all documentation that you and [COMPANY] have to verify this debt. You have 30 days from the date of this letter to send me complete copies of all documentation, otherwise I will consider this debt to be completely invalid and all further collection efforts must cease immediately.
Sincerely,
[NAME_HERE]"
When you send your letter in response to the debt collection letter you receive, be sure to make a copy of it. Also send the letter registered with return receipt requested. Take the letter to the post office, and get the letter registration receipt postmarked, save the receipt from the post office, and save the return receipt when you get it. KEEP EVERYTHING. If you do end up going to court, then you can use all this documentation against them.
Once they receive the letter, they then have 30 days to send you all the documentation that proves you owe the money. In this letter, do NOT include any information, statements other than what I said, what happened, what you have done, or anything else. KEEP IT SIMPLE. Actually, I'd suggest just copying and pasting that letter.
If after 45 days you havn't gotten a response, your debt is gone. There is nothing further that they can do to force you to pay the money, including listing the debt on your credit report, etc. By not responding they have said (accord
At least I can use them to light a fire if I need to . Let's see you kids do that with your fancy email spam that's all the rage these days.
We're all about automation now, my email server automatically lights on fire when I get get my fancy email spam.
Beat that.
If you register domain names or purchase other services through GoDaddy.com, you might find yourself in a similar situation. They don't, to my knowledge, sick a collection agency on you, but they do automatically renew stuff without warning.
More specifically, deep in the fine print of GoDaddy's terms of service, they mention that they will assume that you want to auto-renew a service when it expires. However, nowhere else do they mention this. In fact, 90 days, 60 days, and 30 days before the service expires, they will send you e-mails saying "This service is going to expire! Renew now so it won't happen!". Naturally, if you're like me, you would assume that such a message is implying that the service will simply end if you do nothing. Not so! Instead, on the day of expiration, you will get a notice from GoDaddy that they have billed your credit card for renewal, like it or not.
Now, for me, the service in question was not a domain name. I immediately contacted them an asked them to cancel the service and refund me, and they did. However, domain names (their primary business) can NOT be refunded, presumably since ICANN or whoever does not allow this. So, if this happens to you with a domain name, you're screwed.
Interestingly, GoDaddy also provides a feature that lets you "synchronize" your renewals, making all your services expire on the same date. Since you can renew any service at any time anyway (long before expiration), I see no reason for this feature to exist, other than to trick people into letting GoDaddy auto-renew all of their services at once.
Moral: Always explicitly cancel renewable services.
(Side note: Other than the above shady stuff, I find GoDaddy to be a very nice, high-quality service. I don't feel this is reason for a boycott, but you may make your own decision. I certainly would trust GoDaddy over Verisign, but that's not saying much.)
The letter is dated July 11th, 2002!
What's next on slashdot?
Wired Magazine lists the 19 digital projection theaters in the country where Attack of the Clones can be viewed as Lucas intended?
I guess I'll just have to switch back to my Doctor's waiting room for all my cutting-edge tech news.
Yes, deliquencies lower your score quite a bit - even one. You can however fight back.
You can file a dispute. The credit agencies will take things off unless the creditor/debt collection agency validates the debt. Federal Law: Fair Credit Reporting Act
If they do - and it is invalid - they just violated the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. $1000 civil penalty, payable to you. Just putting it on your credit is likely an offense ($1000). 3 credit agencies, so if they play full hard ball, you can end up collecting $6000.
If you didn't renew - the issues that come to you are unsolicited. Federal law says you may not be billed for unsolicited mail.
KNOW THE LAW.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
So is this the new business model for the 21st century? "Customers cant quit us, we OWN them"!
Don Corleone would be so proud.
The "Drop Dead Letter": clicky
Fine Print: IANAL, IANAA (I am not an American)
There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men. -- Boondock Saints
You should have been told when you rented that there are penalties for returning late. Blockbuster is not being "greedy" by expecting you to conform to contract terms.
If you returned the movie on time, their charge is fraudulent (like Wired's). If you were late, suck it up and pay, or let them tarnish your credit.
You are not legally entitled to screw corporations just because they want to screw you.
They weren't ex-customers. They had subscribed to a rewnewing subscription. They were current subscribers who had become delinquent in their payments.
Try reading the article next time.
Vermifax
Logout
Certainly you are right, however the Nazi at Wired who decided to do this must ahve graduated from the SCO School of Customer Service cum laude.
If you look over the other posts on this board, even you must come to the conclusion that Wired is losing a lot of money and subscribers together with its good will. In fact their level of stupidity on this move is stunning.
My little brother got one of those offers to try PC Gamer magazine; getting an issue or two, he signed up, being told that he would get a bill and could cancel after such time. He never actually received a single issue, but he did get the invoice from them. Since he had yet to get the issue, he ignored the invoice, awaiting his issue so he could decide if he wanted to subscribe or not.
At this point, some more time passed, and he then began getting collection notices on this bill for a magazine he never even got the trial issues.
We had written 'CANCEL' on numerous of the PC gamer invoices, and returned them, but heard nothing back, and the collection notices continued.
We then contacted the collection company who tried to tell us to notify PC Gamer, which I explained that we've tried numerous times, but no action has been taken -- and they reluctantly removed us from their collection system, and apparently also removed our PC Gamer subscription, clearing everything up.
Seems like a lot of effort to try to go for, for a $20/yr magazine subscription.
This all occured over nearly a one-year period, so there was more than sufficient time in between each action to account for snail mail.
May this post be indexed by spiders, and archived for all to see as my Internet epitaph.
In 2001, I had lost my job and finding a new one in NYC in October was, let's say "difficult."
I had a credit card with $4,000 on it, from Citibank. It went default; rent was more important then this debt. I told them I intended to pay the debt but I would have to find work first.
They sent it to a collection agency and let me tell you, this guy was a fucking dipshit. He'd call four times a day, and every time I'd ask "who is this" (because they're only allowed to call once a day, they don't like to identify themselves) and he would not. I'd hang up, he'd call back. Finally after a few calls he would, and I'd say "sorry, he's not here." I started out with them by explaining the situation, but it didn't matter.
Once a bill goes to a collection agency, that's it. The damage has been done - it's on your credit history as a charge-off. The collection agency can not do anything else to ruin your credit. The only thing they can do is bug you until you pay, so that's what most of them do. And they don't mind breaking the law because you can't trace their calls with Caller ID, they don't identify themselves, and when you're broke you can't hire a lawyer. Police won't do a damned thing either. (I called them.)
Finally I did get a job and I sued his ass. He settled and I no longer had to pay the debt. But it was a pain in the ass.
I had another small debt, that went to a lawyers office. They took me to court. But it was better then the collection agency, because I told the judge my situation and he was sympathetic. I paid something like $10 a month until it was paid. Most judges will do the same thing. Once I got some income I paid off the debt in two weeks. This was much more effective then the collection agencies.
So to anyone with a collection agency on your ass - fuck'em. If they refuse to work with you (resonably) on a debt, they're rude, and call more then once a day, don't be afraid. They have NO power. Once you get some cash, call a lawyer.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
He'd call four times a day, and every time I'd ask "who is this" (because they're only allowed to call once a day, they don't like to identify themselves) and he would not. I'd hang up, he'd call back.
I had a credit card from Providian many, many years ago. It was a secured card, I had a deposit and limit of $500. To make a long story short, I did lose my job and could not pay the bill. I called and told them what happened, and told them to take the deposit and use it against my account. But the person on the phone sounded very sympathetic and said they would give me a grace period, and not to close the account. I listened to them.
They lied.
The next bill had a $30 late fee. The one after that had another $30 late fee, and a $30 over the limit fee (caused by the late fee). I called them back and told them to immediatly close my account, but they said my $500 deposit was not large enough to pay off the entire account, and they could not do a partial pay off. They kept charging me late fees and over the limit fees until I owed them $1200 (including the collection fees).
Now this is where it gets real nasty.
Providian started calling my house 8 times a day. Caller Id would always show "unavalable". They threatened me every way they could. Somehow, Providian found my mothers phone number, and called her. The guy told her I was going to get sued unless she paid my debt. I told her not to do anything, I was getting mad.
A few weeks later, my neighbor knocks on my door and says that Providian left a message for me, and that I should call them back.
I called Providian, and told them not to ever call me again. They told me they only respond to written corrispodance.
Providian made my life miserable for over two years. After a while, I would get phone calls and it would be them hanging up. It was all designed to be harrasment.
So I figured to hell with my credit rating, I would rather have 7 horrible years of bad credit than to pay Providian one penny. After a couple years passed, I got a letter from providian approving me for a secured credit card, $1500 to be exact. All Providian wanted was to put my charged off balance on the new credit card.
Here is the deal. If the bank can not collect in the statute of limitations, it gets taken off your credit report. The banks can no longer come after you. To get the debt back, they will try and offer something like credit. They are bastards.
But my question is this. How can you prove to a judge that a bank is calling you non-stop if the caller Id only shows "unavailable" and they don't identify themselevs?
For a while, I was seriously considering getting a gun, walking into Providians main bank, walking to the executive offices, and killing every motherfucker in the room. Them calling nonstop, humiliating me by calling neighbors, threatening my mom, it all was too much for me to take. The only thing that kept me sane was calling them "motherfucker" over the phone.
Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."
About 1-2 years ago this happened to me.
As the claims were ludicrous, I immediately sent the collection agency Clark Howard's drop dead letter, by certified mail.
After that, they cannot ever contact you again about that debt, and no, it will not effect your credit one way or another. (WIRED basically lost that right when they agreed to let a collection agency try to get the money for them... oversimplifying it.)
They really shot themselves in the foot, because up until that time, I would buy the magazine off the newsstand even when I let my subscription lapse. Since I got that letter, I've never bought a copy of WIRED again.
Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
How are you going to cash a check that's made out to another pervert?
I don't know about cheques (used in the United Kingdom), but checks (used in the United States) can have two endorsements on the back when presented to a bank; as long as the first matches "Pay to the order of" and the second matches the ID of the person presenting the check, it's negotiable as a "third party check". That's part of why you shouldn't endorse a check unless you'll immediately be handing it to a bank teller or cashier or putting it in an envelope. Many retailers do not take third party checks, but U.S. financial institutions usually accept them for deposit.
I've seen a few people here claim something to the extent of "it's his own fault, he should have read the fine print" and personally I have to say that's garbage. We live in a society that is absolutely inundated with "fine print". You almost can't avoid it no matter where you go. Much of it is confusing and hard to understand. To make matter worse, a good portion is repetitive info reworded slightly from "fine print" to "fine print" thus worsening the signal to noise ratio drastically.
Since the vast majority of people aren't lawyers (and probably lack the reading comprehension skills needed to read at that level); we can't expect people to thoroughly read through every single EULA, magazine subscription "fine print", etc. in order to know if any of the many convoluted, "lawyer speak", terms will screw you over in the end. This leaves average people to do exactly what most people do right now which is to "gloss over" "fine print" and hope for the best. In this particular case, Wired magazine took what would otherwise be generic "fine print" and slipped in a term radically different from what is the generally accepted method for handling magazine subscriptions. I feel that this should be looked upon as, at least, unethical and should, quite possibly, be considered fraudulent behavior.
What it boils down to is that we need to decide what kind of society we want to live in. Do we want to live in a society where the only way you can avoid being fleeced by big business is to be a lawyer who devotes a large portion of his/her free time to religiously reading the "fine print" to every single product or service he/she buys or signs up for no matter how small or trivial that product or service happens to be? The burden here should fall on the businesses providing the product/service in question.
Individuals have, for the most part, very limited resources (time, money, intellect, etc.) with which to comprehend threats posed by "fine print". If the burden were on the individual then that person would have to expend that effort for every example of "fine print" he/she is exposed to. In comparison, businesses usually have more resources with which to develop "fine print" that doesn't include clauses that aren't generally known and accepted by the community the product/service is being sold in. They only have to expend the overhead once for every product/service they release. Any significantly unusual terms should be listed in a manner that draws attention to it so that potential customers will notice it.
Unfortunately, at the present time, we seem to live in a society that allows large companies (like the ones in the software industry) to create complex licenses like software EULAs that contain clauses hidden away in the middle requiring you to hand over you first born son or all your worldly possessions in exchange for using their newest Operating System. We need to push our government to enact consumer protection laws that stop this kind of abuse.
-GameMater
Rules of Conduct:
#1 - The DM is always right.
#2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
Yhey send out letters that look like "You Owe Us Money" and that lead you to belive that you had already re-subscribed and now you needed to pay. Bogus.
Actually, this same thing happened to me. I, somehow, got put on the auto-renew list -- which means that they'll hire a collection agency to get their $12. Absolutely rediculous. Anyway, I've cancelled, Wired has said they'd talk to the collection agency, they haven't. I'm still trying to get them off my back (4 months). I would never subscribe to Wired again.
Then I shall just deposit it in the ATM and forgo the teller!
Not that I would get an ass vibrator, mind you.
Remember folks, slashdot doesn't have a -1 "disagree" moderation!
...and I know just enough about debt collection law to know that I don't know enough to comment much on this. Oh, and that you certainly shouldn't accept legal advice from ANYONE on slashdot. Including me.
The FDCPA, however, generally applies to third-party debt collectors. If I recall correctly, most people simply run afoul of the Act when they fail to include the required "This communication is an attempt to collect a debt. Any information obtained will be used for that purpose blah blah blah" language on the letter. Usually it's because companies/lawyers don't realize the law applies to them and they end up owing a $1000 fine per occurrence.
The FCRA is also a useful tool for consumers to make sure big companies don't bully them around, but at this hour I can't remember enough about it to really post anything resembling an educated comment. However, it's more complicated than the original poster suggests.
However, another very important set of resources available to consumers are state consumer protection laws. Generally you can find these on your state Attorney General's homepage, and there are detailed instructions for nonlawyers about your rights, the notice and filing requirements and deadlines, and pros and cons of filing a complaint with the AG versus filing on your own. Frequently they follow a similar model, and often involve a requirement that before filing suit for consumer protection violations, you provide a demand letter with 30 days' written notice and an opportunity to settle the claim without going to court.
If the question is not "someone says I owe them money and I don't think I do," but rather that "a magazine renewed my subscription without my consent and then attempted to bill me for it," it seems to me that your state AG's webpage would be a good place to start. Usually there are brochures. With pretty pictures.
[ And now for the standard disclaimer: Legal advice is given by an attorney duly admitted to practice law after confidentially and candidly hearing your version of the facts and applying a specialized analysis of the facts and relevant law. This, however, is a silly post on the Internets, and not legal advice. No attorney-client privilege is created with anyone as a result of this post. Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. If legal advice is what you want, go hire a competent lawyer. Don't ask slashdot. ]
I seem to recall quite a few magazines doing this to me over the years. Are they REALLY going to put a $12 debit on your credit report and risk retaliatory legal action? Hell no. They just send out letters hoping to make you afraid enough to cough up money, and that's it.
I can vouch, having ignored many of these "payment due" notices from magazines. They have not once shown on a credit report from any agency, which I check every year.
Doesn't it cost them some money anyway just to file a complaint with a credit agency? it seems like it would cost them a lot more than they would gain if they actually filed reports on people.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
At first, things are cool. Magazines stop coming after the subscription expires, nothing happens for three months. Then I get the letter from a collection agency. I owe BYTE magazine $1.36 for "underpaying my subscription". Pay up or else.
I shit you not. $1.38. They went to a collection agency for a fucking $1.38.
This letter came at a particularly stressful point in my life, and I was in no mood for this shit. At the time, I did not really understand how collection agencies and the law worked, so I simply bypassed the collection agency, called up BYTE magazine directly, and majorly unloaded on their customer support. The poor girl that happened to answer my call must have been new, for by the end of it I swore she was almost in tears, telling me to forget all about it, sorry for the inconvenience, blah blah blah, have a nice day.
I never received anything more from them or had anything bad pop up on my credit report.
Karma: Frotzed (mostly due to the Frobozz Magic Karma Company)
Wow, thats some impressive misinformation.
I agree that you should not pay the collections agency in most situations. It is usually better to pay the company that you actually owe money to. However there are many cases where you no longer owe the money to the original lender. You in fact owe it to the collection agency as they bought the bad debt from the original lender for pennies on the dollar.
On top of this, neither will get the far past due debt "nixed" from your credit report, it will still be on there and will still affect your credit score.
A while back someone called trying to get me to switch to Sprint and offered me a free mag subscruption if I did.
They had many diffrent publications to chouse from but the sales person was only intrested in having me subscribe to ESPN mag. I don't like sports and explained repeatedly I wasn't intrested in ESPN. I also wasn't intrested in changing my phone carrer. After being put on hold for about 30 minuts I hung up.
I never agreed to anything and certenly didn't agree to a subscription.
A year later I move and suddenly I'm receaving ESPN mag. I've forgotten the phone call. I just send it back with "Return to sender"
However famaly members keep pulling it out of the mail box and returnning them to me so they don't always get out.
Still for like 6 months I got a mag I wasn't intrested in never subscribed to.
Then I got a bill from a colection agentcy.
For a mag subscription to a mag I didn't want.
For the record the phone sales person didn't mention switching carrers. She just started with the free mag pitch and I went round and round with her on the fact that I don't like sports.
She also mentioned Wired but I already had a subscruption.
I don't actually exist.
For the simple reason that I do not feel like writing paragraphs upon paragraphs, I will not go into the vast number of incorrect assertions made in this post.
I would however suggest that you do not take any of this post as any sort of advice, legal or not, as it is entirely incorrect on many many points.
Writing a letter giving them a 30 day deadline is not legally binding. Both sides would have to agree to such a contract and there's no way they would agree to that.
Also, telling them over the phone to cease verbal contact has no meaning at all in most/all states. Request of that nature must be done in writing by mail.
Also, that letter will accomplish nothing as you never asked them to cease communication in it. The owner, original lender or not, is still fully entitled AND REQUIRED BY LAW to report the current status of the debt within a certain time period.
Oh look, I ended up writing a bunch anyway. To sum it all up, the advice in the above post is as phoney as my spelling of baloney. Don't take my word for it either, go look it up.
NSA isn't a real collections agency. About four years ago I was a member of the Scientific American Book Club when I received a bill for three books I never received. I called them up and disputed the bill, but they claimed that it was valid and refused to drop it. I even offered to pay the bill if they'd reship the books (they were good physics texts), but couldn't get them to budge. Since I was already well past my required minimum buy, I just told them to cancel my account.
Almost immediately I started receiving nasty collections letters from the precursor to the North Shore Agency. When I demanded that they stop contacting me, they REFUSED. It turns out that these guys aren't actually a collections agency...they're a billing clearinghouse used by several of the big publishing outfits. They ARE NOT legally a CRA, they CAN NOT place negative information on your credit report, and because they don't actually assume the debt, they can't even sue you for the bill.
Four years later, these idiots still send me nasty letters threatening undefined impending dire consequences every three months or so, but absolutely nothing has happened. I have no negative hits on my credit report, I have never recived a collections call, and no legal action has been attempted by anybody. These guys can bark a lot, but they are completely toothless when it comes time to back up their threats. Considering that my alleged $121 bill is far larger than those being levied against Wired subscribers, I'd guess that they'd go after me long before they go after them.
I quit caring about NSA collection letters a long time ago. My opinion nowadays is that if they want to waste the postage sending me a few letters a year, I'm perfectly content to throw them away with the rest of my junkmail.
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
So, just to be clear, your "legit question" is "They have people whose names sound middle eastern to me, isn't that a sign that they're supporting terrorists?"
/.," but you hope that anyone who doesn't see how "legit" your question is is in the next bombings.
And you don't want to "stir up SH*T on
Very nice.
Information doesn't want to be anthropomorphized anymore.
PC Gamer does this too, and it happened to me. I subscribed specifically for a few years, with no running renewal agreement. I let it expire, I got a collections letter like this guy. So it's not a "didn't read the agreement" issue. The letter specifically referred to the situation as a "debt," which is untrue. If I ever get up off my ass, I've been planning on referring this to the AG's office, but since they're based in CA, I used to live in CA, and now I live in VA, I'm not sure which one.
If you ignore any request for payment from any company even if its fraudulent you again have only yourself to blame if you do not challenge it.
To an extent, but since claiming that someone owes you money when you know they don't is fraud, you can certainly blame them too. A lot of people might think it's easier to pay $12 than risk their credit.
I called PC Gamer, asked them what the hell this was about and why they're claiming I owe them money when I don't, and they just cancelled my subscription.
I had a Wired subscription as well, and recently cancelled, however I can NOT believe how many freakin times I have recived a "bill" in the mail for another $40.00 CDN to continue my subscription. So I decided to call them up, and verbally cancelled and ensured that verbally it was cancelled. So it goes. Then I get another bill/invoice for $40.00 CDN, I phone them back and state, "I don't care whatever buttons you gotta punch to make it end up like this but, I dont want anything else, period, no offers, remove me from any lists I'm on, put your Privacy Flag on my account, and make sure my status is CANCELLED. Thank you."
I received one more card from them later on, stating everything was finally cancelled and have heard nothing since then. With this much hassle in cancelling your subscription I am *NEVER* ever re-subscribing to them again, besides, you can go to wired.com anyways, and just read everything thats in the magazine in full (yes - I've sat and compared the online version and the magazine version) - the only difference is the 70% of ads they plow into it and all their NEXFest promotional stuff.
I subscribed because the articles are very well written and researched, and thought I might support them a bit, but never again.
I have a rather unfortunate financial past, and learned a whole lot of lessons the hard way. A really sad story about going to college, parents not helping, trying to pay your own way, dropping out, winding up unemployed, etc. I will also note that credit cards never enter the picture. Usually past-due utilities, etc. I'm more or less out of the woods, so I'll shared my experiences. As everyone above has said, don't take my word or anyone else's on Slashdot as legal advice. This is simlpy personal experience here.
1. Never pay the collection agency. Never, ever ever ever pay the collection agency. They may have bought the debt, but the fact remains that they are not your debtor (and the law so far has seemed to be on my side on this one, most of the time you can't just say, "you don't owe me anymore, now you owe Bruno over here...", unless you dot all of the right "i"'s and all the right "t"'s, which collection agencies never do.
2. Pull your credit reports and dispute EVERYTHING negative. Don't miss a single one, and watch your wording. Go for duplicate instances first, in the above scenario when the original debtor had the account, they probably reported it, then sold it to a collections agency, who in turn reported it. You aren't allowed to do that, and the FCRA spells it out. They also aren't allowed to re-report that account again, and are liable for damages if they do so.
3. Most collection agencies are lazy and out for a quick buck. 99% of all disputes will result in deletion from your report, because it requires effort on the part of the agency to verify the debt. Effort is too much work, so the mark will come off.
4. Be persistent. If it didn't come off the first time, try another tactic, and dispute it again. Don't give up until it is gone.
5. Pay the government first. This is a "well, duh" now, but it wasn't to me back then. Bankruptcy won't excempt you from debts to the government (Federal Student Loans, for example in my case), and unlike most collection agencies, the government isn't lazy.
6. Don't be intimidated by phone calls. Lump telemarketers and collection agencies in the same bucket, get callerid, and set up an asterisk server if you're so inclined. Don't hesitate to hang up on someone if you hear electrical silence for 1-2 seconds, and in fact, delay saying "Hello" when you first pick up, and listen. If you hear background noise, go ahead and answer. If you hear electrical silence like it is a calling machine waiting for you to anwer to connect you to a "rep", hang up immediately. Or simply don't answer calls from numbers you don't know, or are marked "PRIVATE" or "UNAVAILABLE", then let it roll to your answering machine or voicemail. If it is important, and it is a human being, you'll get the message. If you start getting threatening voicemails (did you set up asterisk?) save all of messages, and make a cd if you must. Tell them off, if they still keep calling, they've violated the law (don't remember which one).
7. Get a stamp made ($12 from Office Max) in red ink that says quite simply "Unsolicited Mail: Return to Sender." Take it with you every day to the mailbox. If it is junk mail, stamp. Collections Agency? Stamp. Be sure to stamp once over your name and address and a couple more for good measure elsewhere to make it legible, stick it all back in the mailbox and throw up the flag. After a while I'm sure you'll get to recognize what messages are from whom. You probably do already.
Wow. Uh...yeah. Never negotiate with terr^H^H^H^H collection agencies. Never never never never.
I don't care who sent them.
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
So, instead of just terminating the subscription as they said they would in the first letter, they got a collection agency to pay USD 12 up front? That's great. My answer would be something like:
Otherwise, it's just the same fraudulent scare tactic that seems to have become quite popular. Just don't give in as long as you have any proof that you're right (correspondence, conditions at the time of latest subscription renewal, etc.). Show the CA that they're being used in a criminal scheme and they'll get quite angry with their original customer.
Fight hunger. Filet a politician and send him to a 3rd world country of your choice.
Just as a follow-up to the above, just doing that won't fix your credit. You have to start outnumbering the negative with the positive.
Go to a local credit union (NOT a bank), make sure it is one that is a member of the CO-OP Network and participates in the CU Shared Branch program. This way CU ATM's nationwide will service you for free, and CU branches will help you nationwide. Start an account there, and after a month or two, start a secured credit card with a savings account attached. After a year or so of good payment history (buy gas on it instead of cash, pay it off immediately), they'll be willing to remove the security account and give you that money back, and probably even double your credit line at the same time. Keep using that card.
Get a car loan there (or move your existing loan to them), and continue rolling positive marks into your report. Perhaps you have a negative mark from your old loan institution. Start getting postives at the CU, then dispute the old mark.
Ditto for a house, if you can. Get everything into one place for easy (even automated) payments so you don't have to worry about writing checks. Credit Unions will bend over backwords to help repair or fix credit for its members, as the members are essentially the owners. A bank really couldn't care less about anything other than getting interest and fee dollars out of you.
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
Whenever I see the latest issue of [i]Wired,[/i] I always imagine a bunch of clueless 40-something marketing experts-turned-editors, gathering in Wired's editorial office, deperately trying to decide which two-year-old "emerging trend" to parade next (and get completely wrong).
It's like the middle-aged uncle who tries to impress everyone with his eternal youth at the 2005 family reunion by showing off his new iPod.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
I'll go ahead and toss another log on the fire before I go to bed for the night.
Find out what the statute of limitations is for collecting debts in your state. Here, it is 7 years from the last time a payment was made on the account. Be careful about this, because some collectors are really sneaky, and let's say you owe $2000 for whatever from 6.5 years ago, and they sympathize and say "tell you what, just pay what you can, say $50...we'll work with you". BS. Next thing you know, you're being sued for the full amount because you've now reset that statute of limitations. Remember what i said about collection agencies? NEVER PAY THE COLLECTIONS AGNECIES. Period.
Once you're outside of that statute of limitations, don't look back. It sucks, if you have a soul at all you're going to have guilt associated with not paying a bill, but move on, and keep your nose clean going forward. Any attempt to pay that debt puts you on shaky legal ground. Better to leave it in the past, and odds are pretty good that if you're outside the statute of limitations, you're alos outside the period of which the negative mark associated with it can be legally posted (again, 7 years from last activity).
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).