Survey Sees Tough Times for 360 in Japan

GamesIndustry.biz is reporting that a survey recently conducted by Japanese news agency C-News would tend to suggest that the Xbox 360 will encounter consumer resistance when it is launched in Japan. From the article: "The poor showing for the Revolution is perhaps understandable, given that Nintendo has released only sketchy outline details regarding the console so far - but the figure for the Xbox 360 will come as a disappointment to Microsoft, which has focused heavily on the Japanese market in recent months." GameDailyBiz has a look at the survey as well, concentrating on the PS3's popularity.

Comments

C stands for Captain obvious?

[Fr05t]

"C-News would tend to suggest that the Xbox 360 will encounter consumer resistance when it is launched in Japan."

No tell me it ain't so! I really expected the Xbox 360 to do so well in the Asian markets!

Oh crap I forgot to open my tag.

Re:C stands for Captain obvious?

[ZephyrXero]

I think this survey has happened too soon personally. Xbox360 hasn't had any real showing in Japan yet...just here in the states. The only thing the Japanese gamers know is from what they've seen happen over here and in magazines. Isn't MS having a big press conference later this month in Japan? And aren't there supposed to be alot of big name Japanese developers on board this time? I think they need to redo this survey after that happens...and then maybe once more when the official prices come out.

Protectionism?

[UberChuckie]

Is protectionism a factor in the same people many people would only buy domestic cars?

Re:Protectionism?

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Yes.
2. Nobody likes the Xbox 1, so backwards compatibility means jack.
3. Sony is well liked, even though they have serious quality control issues to deal with.
4.

Re:Protectionism?

[danzona]

Is protectionism a factor in the same people many people would only buy domestic cars?

I don't know if I would call this protectionism (maybe nationalism?) but I agree with your example.

The same mindset that made Americans (back in the 70s/80s) insist that American cars were better than Japanese cars, despite overwhemling contrary evidence, probably exists in some Japanese making them insist that Japanese consoles are better than American consoles.

Although in this case they are probably right.

Re:Protectionism?

[badasscat]

Is protectionism a factor in the same people many people would only buy domestic cars?

(I'm guessing your first "people" should be "way")

Some people (or as I like to call them, "idiots") suggested when the Xbox first bombed in Japan that it was because of some sort of "racism" or xenophobia against westerners. You don't seem to be going that far, which is good, but I should probably try to head this off before it goes down that road...

The Japanese have no xenophobia towards westerners. In fact, just the opposite - American and European products are "in" in Japan and have been for some time now. Levi's, McDonald's, Starbucks, Gucci, Prada, all incredibly powerful and popular brands in Japan. Western-style clothing has completely replaced Japanese-style clothing, western-style weddings are now standard (even if the participants are not Christian), and for a while the #1 film of all time there was Titanic. Even Pearl Harbor did pretty good box office, considering!

So to even suggest there's protectionism, xenophobia or worse, "racism" going on is at best ignorant.

The fact is MS just got it so completely wrong with the original Xbox that they will probably never recover there. They paid absolutely no attention to the wants of Japanese gamers at first - they do have different tastes, and they have different wants and needs as far as the design of the console itself goes. The system was not what they wanted, the games were not what they wanted.

One thing about Japan is there is a lot of brand loyalty, and conversely a lot of brand avoidance. If a company gets a reputation, it is very hard to shake that reputation. The Xbox pretty quickly got a reputation as being big, ugly, unreliable (the scratched disc issue was a big story there), with bad games that nobody wanted to play. Despite the marketing for the 360, that reputation is going to be a very tough thing to overcome there. If you ask a gamer in Japan what they think of when they hear "Xbox", the most likely answer is going to be "kusoge" (I'll leave you to look that up).

Even ignoring that, though, I'm not convinced the Xbox 360 has overcome all of the original Xbox's issues. It is still big. It is still not styled the way the Japanese expect a console to be styled. (Painting the thing white does not automatically make it look like a Japanese product.) The PS3 has some issues too, but Sony's brand loyalty can overcome that. MS is not operating from that position of strength there so they really had to nail the design of the system, and they didn't. At least not for Japan, despite all their best efforts (including consulting with a Japanese design studio - who they seem to have totally ignored).

I have a feeling MS will get more than 2% of the market when all is said and done, as they really are making a push with developers there this time. But they will still be a very distant third, and I'm not sure the ROI is going to justify the effort and expense.

Re:Protectionism?

[alphaseven]

Is protectionism a factor in the same people many people would only buy domestic cars?

Maybe, except they've done poorly in all the Asian markets. I'm surprised they're so far behind Sony in Korea.

Re:Protectionism?

[interiot]

Go to Akihabara and compare the number of iPods on display to the number of XBox's (hint: tons of ipods, only one or two xboxes). Go on the Tokyo subway or visit tech worker's mini-cubicles, and count how many iPods you see (hint: lots).

Japanese aren't really that xenophobic.

Re:Protectionism?

[interiot]

What is it with Mitsubishis and Hondas in Japan? In the US, it seems like there's a fairly even mix of Honds, Toyotas, Nissans, and at least some Mitsubishis. In japan, everything is Toyota with some Nissans ("Nissan Cube", worst. name. ever.). A japanese person was surprised that we buy Mitsubishis in the US, she said something about them catching on fire or something.

But yeah, my impression was definitely that there's a lot of brand loyalty/avoidance over there.

Re:Protectionism?

[interiot]

(or, at least fairly different brand loyalty than in the US)

Re:Protectionism?

[ZephyrXero]

I think it has less to do with nationalism and more to do with the fact that there weren't many Japanese made GAMES on the first Xbox... Where the system is not nearly as important as the actual games they're playing on it. There's supposed to be about 10 times the Japanese support this time, so it should do alot better this go round on that factor alone.

Re:Protectionism?

[vertinox]

Is protectionism a factor in the same people many people would only buy domestic cars?

Only if the foreign car sellers put the steering wheel on the wrong side of the car for 25 years.

Re:Protectionism?

[SparksMcGee]

The fact is MS just got it so completely wrong with the original Xbox that they will probably never recover there. They paid absolutely no attention to the wants of Japanese gamers at first - they do have different tastes, and they have different wants and needs as far as the design of the console itself goes. The system was not what they wanted, the games were not what they wanted.

Even ignoring that, though, I'm not convinced the Xbox 360 has overcome all of the original Xbox's issues. It is still big. It is still not styled the way the Japanese expect a console to be styled.

certainly "racism" is too harsh but I think your own contentions support the idea that there is just some inherent resistance to Western notions of videogaming in Japan. There's nothing inherently "wrong" with this kind of attitude; People like what they like, but as a matter of cultural difference yes, Microsoft is facing an uphill battle. The XBox is hardly what I would call "big" considering the kind of hardware in it (that is, relative to the size of my desktop), and frankly I think white looks ugly on hardware (IMHO! I am NOT trying to take a stab at Apple). But if these sorts of considerations are inverted in a foreign market, then albeit "protectionism" or "racism" may be an incorrect moniker, but cultural resistance definitely may hurt the 360 in Japan.

And that's very interesting that Sony has such a good rep in Japan. My own experience with / perception of Sony products has always been that there are a few products that actually see a great deal of quality control (the PSP, Trinitron monitors, etc.), but that part of the tradeoff of Sony's ubiquitous presence in electronics is a certain lack of quality and reliability relative to other or more specialized brands. I may be wholly incorrect about this but I usually passively avoid Sony products all things being equal (though not to the extent I'll turn down a well-reviewed product or a good price advantage).

Re:Protectionism?

[badasscat]

May I enquire if you have been there?

Only about a hundred times, both as part of my former job in the video game industry and for pleasure.

Since all of us have AIDS and enjoy raping japanese youths, you won't live long enough to enjoy the close company of many Japanese.

You'd probably want to inform my wife of that. She was born and raised in Ryu-Gasaki. How do you think I know about western Japanese weddings?

btw, you are one of the "people" I was referring to in my original post. If this is your idea of what Japanese people think of us, then you are at best misinformed.

Re:Protectionism?

[Pluvius]

The Japanese have no xenophobia towards westerners.

Except that they do (though it is beginning to die out along with the older generations of set-in-their-ways Japanese, as is their traditionally conformist culture). They might like some of our products, but that doesn't mean that even a majority of them like us as a people. As for how nicely they treat Americans? That's called "politeness," something that the Japanese are very good at. The Japanese aren't nearly as xenophobic as they were 50 years ago, but to say that they aren't xenophobic at all towards Westerners is simply absurd.

I doubt that this relates all that much to the showing of the XBox in Japan, though. The simple fact is that the Japanese in general do not like Western games. Even if Microsoft had made something smaller than the Gamecube with a higher reliability than the PS2, it wouldn't have mattered, unless doing so would've attracted Japanese game developers (an interesting question in itself).

Rob

Re:Protectionism?

[Khuffie]

Wait...did you just say the PSP went through a great deal of quality control?

Re:Protectionism?

[Anonymous Coward]

Xenophobic Japanese consumerism is [still] a myth. I say "still" because so many people have dispelled it in the past that I don't want to get into it any more. People should move on, or at least read this post from 9/21/03.

The Xbox had major, glaring, obvious problems with it that the Japanese could identify right off the bat. It wasn't consistently reliable, it wasn't convenient, it wasn't externally supported, it wasn't perceivably trendy, it wasn't attractive, and there was no advantage to owning one over any of the alternatives that DO fit those criteria. It just plain wasn't made for them. This is what's causing problems for the Japanese, not the fact that MS is some American company.

The Xbox 360 could have been the most Japanese of all the consoles (most reliable, smallest - which it won't be, best supported by Japanese software devs - which it won't be, supported by the most Japanese-suited ad campaign, most attractive, most powerful, least expensive - which it won't be), but it is the followup to one of the worst products in industry history as far as the Japanese are concerned. It has a legacy of perceived crap to get over, and the Japanese will need much more convincing than MS has been offering. When you enter a Japanese tub all filthy like that, nobody gets back in until it's drained and scrubbed. MS basically did that and took a piss while they were at it.

So if you're MS, what can you do to fix your situation?

1. Build a time machine using Windows/Office money. Should be less expensive than Xbox has been for you, you bucking frilliant business majors you.
2. Go back in time.
3. DON'T use "Project Midway" as your development name for the Xbox project.
4. Involve Japanese designers in the design process from day one, instead of relying on Seamus Blackley to interpret what he thinks Japanese people want, just because rumor has it he's watched an anime movie before.
5. DON'T tell people to fuck off when reports of Xboxes scratching game discs start spreading. Nintendo's after-market customer support is the best around in both Japan and the U.S., you idiots. You can't beat their service (or even just their image) by being assholes.
6. Translate ALL of your American game ports when released in Japan, morons. Don't release a separate line of English-only crap games. You basically told the Japanese that they are not important enough to be your main focus ALL THE TIME, which is something they (like everybody) should rightfully demand if you're going to bother trying to sell things to them.
7. ???, etc.
8. PROFIT = IMPOSSIBLE, but maybe you'd be bleeding less in Japan

Re:Protectionism?

[10101001 10101001]

The XBox is hardly what I would call "big" considering the kind of hardware in it (that is, relative to the size of my desktop)

Most consumers don't consider the kind of hardware in a game console. They want it to function reliably, run the sort of games they want to play, and not be too big/too small. To put it another way, if MS had decided to use a lead inner coating for the XBox, to reduce EM interference or whatever, would you merely shrug off the extra 20lbs or would you be at all moved to consider getting another console?

Look at the current titles

[Iriel]

Just a glance at the games available for the Xbox and another look at some of the most popular games and genres in Japan should shed some light on this big mystery that Microsoft can't figure out.

While not all, most of the Xbox games are pretty geared towards American pop-gaming trends, and you can't expect to market to another country when you don't speak their language (figuratively, of course). You have to know your audience.

Re:Look at the current titles

[Gulthek]

Japanese games were (in the NES and SNES days) geared toward Japanese pop-gaming trends; but that didn't stop them from being fanatically popular in the US.

Re:Look at the current titles

[Iriel]

That's because in the NES and SNES days, console gaming wasn't the industry that it is now. People have multiple vendors to choose from (even PC) and the wealth of titles available for each is enormous when put together.

Back then, it was a little bit easier to impress when there wasn't as much selection for consoles in the US or there was a niche yet to be filled by American game developers.

Now there is a plethora of choice in the gaming market, and most people that have the option to get a system aren't left in the dark about what's out there. It's possible that Microsoft could eventually gain a small footing in Japan in time, but the current trends don't seem to have a demand for what they offer.

Re:Look at the current titles

[Anonymous Coward]

Just a glance at the list of Japanese developers that have made commitments to develop on the 360 will tell you that Microsoft already figured it out.

Re:Look at the current titles

[IntergalacticWalrus]

Actually, I remember reading somewhere that back in the NES/SNES days Nintendo was very commited to making their games as universally appealing as possible.

For example, in the early days of Nintendo of America, it was administered by a mix of Japanese and American people, so that they could act as some kind of ambassadors who would report back to Nintendo HQ about current trends and cultural issues.

They seemed to have stopped doing that now though.

Re:Look at the current titles

[Shadow99_1]

duh. But you know why they are like that? It starts with most Japanese developers shunning the xbox when it came out. Team Ninja (part of Namco) was about the only development team to insist on Xbox. Most developers just ignored it from the start, with no one who developes Japanese games (with the one noted exception) developing for the xbox who was supposed to make Japanese style games for it? US game companies? Eroupian game companies? I don't think they would understand what makes a game a japanese style game...

Re:Look at the current titles

[Anonymous Coward]

The PS2 already had a large installed base and more 3rd parties already signed up. As you may recall, MS had a difficult time recruiting 3rd parties at the beginning, and there was not much reason for consumers to go for the XBox much less other 3rd parties. If you had a choice to develop for a console that had a larger user base, was backward compatible with a previous and successful generation, had the brand name of the most successful in the previous generation, or some unknown newcomer, you would pick the one with experience loyalty and fan base.

The reason Team Ninja was the only one to stay with the XBox was because MS paid them enough, but even they put out their best games (such as Rygar) for the PS2.

Re:Look at the current titles

[Shadow99_1]

Um dude team ninja makes DOA games and Ninja Gaiden, they don't make anything else for Namco and frankly Team Ninja itself wasn't paid anything to use the Xbox... ANotehr team in Namco made Rygar (which frankly I'm not willing to call better than DOA or Ninja Gaiden).

Also in the US MS had alot of 3rd party xbox support with only a few notable exceptions that eventually came over anyways. Japan could have seen better games from Japanese developers if other developers would have just taken a chance, but none did. Well at least not til now with several offshot development companies and Square Enix wanting a piece of the pie...

I will mention some really nice Japanese oriented games that MS had made for xbox and did (to a limited extent) come out in the US as well like Phantom Crash and Phantom Dust (don't ask why they both ahve 'Phantom' in the name). I have owned both (& I kick myself every day for the last year because I traded Phantom Crash in which was a great game I'd still like to play now) and each had interesting gameplay and a very japanese presentation, but got no response from either Japan or the US...

No Shit

[rAiNsT0rm]

Wow, this took a scientific survey? The Japanese are not suckers like we are here, in fact Europe is not either when it comes to consoles. One mediocre game (Halo) is not enough to get them excited in the least. They demand innovation, sometimes wacky, and also games that are targeted to them. Xbox will never supply this. How many unique puzzle games on Xbox... yeah. How many dating simulators/train simulators/anime/etc. titles on xbox... yeah. How many Hentai, Mahjongg, puyo pop, Katmari Damacy's... yeah. Oooh, a ton of crap-ass eye-candy FPS titles and an old GC rehash of Kameo redone... gee, I wonder why the Japanese aren't buying MS's bullshit marketing toward them.

Please, I just wish Americans would wake up and realize that these new FPS/media "consoles" are about as lame as vanilla ice cream when it comes to trying to push gaming forward.

Re:No Shit

[Anonymous Coward]

Hentai? Really? Do I have to import that?

Re:No Shit

[JFitzsimmons]

You're talking out your ass! From what I see, Japanese games suffer just as much from "play it again" syndrome as anyone else, perhaps even more. Console RPGs are almost entirely the same every time, as are side scrolling spaceship shooters, and there's also billions of those incredibly pointless slashers with no story that involves you mashing buttons for 20 hours straight until you beat the last boss.

American games on the other hand seem to focus on shooters more, and maybe racers, and sports games - which in my eyes also suffer from an incredible lack in originality.

So while it may be true that the Japanese market has different intrests than the American one, I think they also suffer from game innovation problems.

Surely you're not suggesting that every game made in Japan is incredibly original and thoughful, and brings us to a new plateu of gameplay? I would hope not. Some Japanese games do, as you've mentioned, but then again a handful of American games have also made some progress when it comes to thinking up something new instead of just falling into lockstep.

Re:No Shit

[rAiNsT0rm]

I never stated ALL Japanese games are innovative... I stated exactly what I meant, the Japanese demand originality and innovation much more than Americans do. I was a game reviewer for some years, and have extensively worked in the industry, I am quite sure of my comments.

Think back through the major innovative games, how many originated in Japan or from a Japanese game? TONS. Tetris is an exception, Myst to some extent, and a few others but could be counted without taking my pants or shoes off.

The real innovation in gaming comes from Japan, to argue that is stupidity. Americans are happy with more of the same, and sequels and clones... it's sad. Japan has it's share of junk and clones and we have FPS/twitch crap it is all overdone and losing luster.

Take a couple minutes to search the current top titles in Japan and over the life of the same consoles as in america and look at the differences. They are quite apparent.

Re:No Shit

[Serapth]

Hmmmm.... lets see... innovations out of the "west" as there isnt alot of difference between Western European, Canadian and American developers to make a distinction.

1) CREATED THE FIRST COMMERICALLY SUCCESSFUL CONSOLES!!!! Hmmm... thats a pretty big one isnt it? The Atari and Intellivision basically invented the market. Not to mention the games on those systems pioneered most of the concepts that are cloned today.

2) Created the first 1st person shooter. Thats a pretty big deal, no?

3) Basically created every innovation in sports games.

4) Pioneered physics in games.

5) The entire line of SIM games. Hell, basically Will Wright has ever done.

6) The god game genre. Aka, Populous

7) The first real time strategy games. Aka, Star Craft

8) Computer RPGs. Yeah, the thing everyone thinks Japanese do so well refined from North American games.

9) FMV in video games. Hmmm you think the final fantasy series really started it? HAHA, no.
Innovation is slowing down, because frankly a lot of ideas have been implemented. We are in an age of refinement now.



Frankly what have the Japanese game companies done thats really that mind blowingly innovative. Pretty much every Final Fantasy game is formulaic drivel that sports dialogue I cant help but think an angst filled 12 year old wrote. Gran Turismo is basically just a very good implementation of something thats been done in hundreds of games. Really, when it comes down to it, I can only think of a handful of really original games coming from Japan. The whole pet genre ( think Nintendogs or that weird fish game for the dreamcast ) but really how much different from SimX is that? Super Mario XXII? Zelda XV? Megaman XXXII? Super Ultimate Street Final Mega 2 Turbo Extreme Subversion 3b?

They are no more innovative then any western developers. In fact, I would have to argue the opposite based of reliance on sequels to the point of nausea.

Ironically, the most innovative game Ive seen from Japan in a good five years was for the Xbox. Steel Battalion. Plus, it isnt so much the game thats impressive, but the control. I do appreciate the bold risk they took to make it though.

Re:No Shit

[Serapth]

To be fair, there is one area I missed that the japanese are big at. The party game. the donkey cong drum game, and Dance Dance revolutions come to mind.

I wont bother with my personal opinion on these games, but I will admit, for reasons I dont understand other people seem to enjoy them. Then again... other people enjoy Karaoke... probrably the same group.

So I suppose net result, I can think of two Japanese contributions to the world of gaming.. 1- the pet game
2- the party game

I give the Japanese credit for Pokemon too... but that isnt so much a video game topic. Its a completely different form of gaming that got implemented as a game. Also, Im not sure pokemon is the first CCG out there. I think it is, but wont say with authority either way.

Re:No Shit

[Anonymous Coward]

1 - We also created a console that nearly destroyed the market and it took a Japanese console to revive it. Japanese also invented the D-pad, a controller concept that still lives to this day on any video game console that is not a PC.

2 - Japanese players, for the most part, don't play FPS games.

3 - Japanese players, for the most part, don't play Western oriented sports games.

4 - Most "physics" engines revolve around FPS games. See 2.

Please note that the ORIGINAL Final Fantasy, Super Mario, Zelda, Megaman, Street Fighter 2, were VERY original games for their time. All from Japan. Oh wait, were you trying to say that those games originally came from the West?

Maybe if you looked at THEIR market, and not the FPS, sports-filled Western market, you wouldn't sound so much like a jackass.

Re:No Shit

[Anonymous Coward]

Christ, who modded this dipshit up? Halo is mediocre? It only took the console gaming world by storm, that's all. And of course you don't mention that if one is a Star Wars fan, the XBOX is the only console, and that the 10,000 samurai games for PS2 don't make up for it. Yeah, apparently innovation in your mind is how many different directions you can slice up ninjas, bushi, ronin, etc.

Re:No Shit

[rAiNsT0rm]

HaHa, you are an idiot and you have now proved it with your completely off-base response which is wrong on so many factual levels it would take me hours to break them all down.

hehe, yeah lump in Canada, Europe, etc. to claim *AMERICA* is where innovation comes from. Christ, flawed logic spews forth from your post like a waterfall. Umm, Molyneux is not American by the way... but again, in your made up world he is.

Gee, simulation titles aren't deried from Japanese titles... heh, whatever.

Yeah, you must be right, "pet" games and "party" games that's all the Japanese have contributed... what an asshat. You now must revoke your geek license and go sit in the corner because everyone now sees the sheer stupidity you have created in your mind.

Re:No Shit

[Serapth]

No, my argument was dead on. You however are ignorant to "innovation" outside of the realm of traditional Japanese video games. These are the things I pointed out to you.

hehe, yeah lump in Canada, Europe, etc. to claim *AMERICA* is where innovation comes from. Christ, flawed logic spews forth from your post like a waterfall. Umm, Molyneux is not American by the way... but again, in your made up world he is.

Lumping Canada, Europe and Western Europe is pretty much a requirement in todays market. Basically there are two "types" of developers. Eastern (Korea and Japan mostly), and Western. Look at the publisher Dynamic. EA for example... EA NHL2006 and Need For Speed are made in Vancouver for EA, who are based out of California. Our how about UBISoft, based out of France but a lot of their flagship games are developed in Montreal ( Splinter Cell & Prince of Persia ). I know Molyneux is based out of the UK yet hmmm who publishes Lionheads games? Hmmmm? Oh, a North American publisher. Hell, the Tomb Raider series has been developed in 3 different countries already. So, if you used a few cells in that tiny fucking brain of yours maybe, just maybe you would realize why indeed you do have to clump Western games into one group ... what an asshat. You now must revoke your geek license and go sit in the corner because everyone now sees the sheer stupidity you have created in your mind..

Btw I never once claimed America is the source of innovation fuck, Im very happily NOT an American.

Yeah, you must be right, "pet" games and "party" games that's all the Japanese have contributed

Ok, Sir Clusterfuck I call you. Give me say 5 other unique games that came out of Japan. I promise you I can find prior art in almost every case. They do a damned good job of refining existing games and some bloody good games come from Japan but so say it is driving innovation is delusional. I may have missed one or two genres, I admit that but I doubt theres much more. You feel like backing up your insults with an actual tangible argument then maybe just maybe you are onto something. Until then, Ill continue with my assumption that youre a hopeless Japanese game fanboy.

Re:No Shit

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, remember when Commander Chekov used to say everything was invented in Russia, that was pretty fun too. To see this sad little man from a dying civilization trying to prop himself up with "we invented everything" was quite amusing.

Re:No Shit

[Serapth]

1 - We also created a console that nearly destroyed the market and it took a Japanese console to revive it. Japanese also invented the D-pad, a controller concept that still lives to this day on any video game console that is not a PC.

Hey... I never said that North Americans are better at the business... this conversation is about Innovation, remember.

2 - Japanese players, for the most part, don't play FPS games.
3 - Japanese players, for the most part, don't play Western oriented sports games.
4 - Most "physics" engines revolve around FPS games. See 2.

All of those points, while greatly over-generalizing the Japanese people, are most true. Thing is, they arent relevant. Or do we now measure innovation exclusively off what the japanese market thinks??? Those three things... sports games, fps and physics have all been sources of innovation... who gives a fuck if the Eastern markets dont like to play them. They were still innovative.

Please note that the ORIGINAL Final Fantasy, Super Mario, Zelda, Megaman, Street Fighter 2, were VERY original games for their time. All from Japan. Oh wait, were you trying to say that those games originally came from the West?
Where did I ever say those games came from the west? However, honestly... those games were all good... but really, with the exception of Street Fighter 2 ( which ironically is a sequel ), what was really innovative about any of them. You seem to be mixing quality with innovative. Innovative != Quality && Quality != Innovative. I never once said *GOOD* or *EXCELLENT* games dont come from Japan, they really do. Ive just said that Japan isnt the source of all innovation people like to portray it as.

Maybe if you looked at THEIR market, and not the FPS, sports-filled Western market, you wouldn't sound so much like a jackass.

Funny... maybe if you had slightly better reading comprehension skills, you may be able to form a response to the *actual* argument being put forth.

Re:No Shit

[rAiNsT0rm]

heh, you really amuse me. It's the only reason I keep wasting time to reply. Umm, I am an American and covered American games for well over 4 years... a japanese fanboy I am not in the least, I simply have a solid grasp of the videogame industry and history. I still find it funny that you equate the fucking *publisher* with mattering at all in where the game was developed. How sad, a publisher simply publishes a game. Yeah all of those games were NOT created and developed by an American or in America, my point exactly. When you beat a game and the credits roll how many times do you see American names taking up the majority of the screen? Yeah, didn't think so.

Here's a shortlist from memory, I am not going to post why each is innovative but will be glad to for each listed:

Game and Watch, ICO, REZ, Seaman, Jet Set Radio, Silent Hill, Shenmue, Animal Crossing, DDR, Parappa, Mad Maestro, Katmari Damacy, Mr. Mosquito, Nintendogs, Double Dragon/Street Fighter, Bubble Bobble, King of Fighters, Virtua Fighter, 1942, Mahjongg, Nintendo in general, possibly Super Mario Bros., Puyo Pop, Pokemon, Shining Force, Train Simulators, Dating simulators, and that's off the top of my head.

I don't plan on arguing with you anymore, this subject comes up and people can argue till their blue in the face. The simple fact that if you took Japan (hardware and software innovations) out of the gaming equation where would we be? Walk up and down the isle at EBGames and look for American developed titles that are AAA and innovative... I'll wait.

Re:No Shit

[Frac]

1) CREATED THE FIRST COMMERICALLY SUCCESSFUL CONSOLES!!!! Hmmm... thats a pretty big one isnt it? The Atari and Intellivision basically invented the market. Not to mention the games on those systems pioneered most of the concepts that are cloned today.

You mean like how Henry Ford invented the automobile?

I think the real point you're trying to make is how american companies are great at creating new industries. And they're also really good at getting pushed out of the market due to their incompetence.

7) The first real time strategy games. Aka, Star Craft

Starcraft is one of the first real time strategy games? Hey kid, you're way too young to pretend to know anything about games.

They are no more innovative then any western developers. In fact, I would have to argue the opposite based of reliance on sequels to the point of nausea.

Yeah, Western games are never about sequels. Halo? Ultima? Doom? Quake? Warcraft? Diablo? Madden? Sim Whatever?

Re:No Shit

[Serapth]

You mean like how Henry Ford invented the automobile? Actually no. Henry Fords contribution to *INNOVATION* was the automated assembly line, not the automobile. The car had existed before he was born. But yes, once your acknowledge his proper innovation its actually a fairly good parallel.

We are talking about INNOVATION, im getting pretty sick of repeating that, as pretty much everyone that has responded seems to be missing that fact.

Here for quick reference... or incase you simply dont understand, here is the definition of innovation.
innovation ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-vshn)
n.
The act of introducing something new.
Something newly introduced.

Bold emphasis added by me. SOMETHING NEW. A refinement of an existing concept isnt innovation, its refinement. Thats why we have to different words in the first place.

I am not arguing that Japan makes bad games... I am not arguing that Western games dont have sequels aswell. I am simply arguing that the majority of innovation in the gaming industry actually happened in the West, not in Japan.

Starcraft is one of the first real time strategy games? Hey kid, you're way too young to pretend to know anything about games.

Um... actually I used StarCraft as an example of an RTS game, not as the first RTS. That is up for argument... most people whoever claim that Dune was the first true RTS. Considering I grew up with gaming, starting with the intellivision on up, I think im plenty old enough to understand it.

Point blank, there really isnt alot of innovation left in the industry or atleast not major innovation. Its just the way it happens... when a media is new, hell not being innovative is a bloody hard thing to do. Now, draw a parallel to movies, and how many "innovative" concepts do you see anymore? In the last 20 years... Maybe a dozen or so new techniques, and evolutionary changes to the technology behind it. Video gaming is hitting that point now.

Re:No Shit

[Serapth]

I will admit the whole fighting game is pretty much locked by the East. That is an area I will hands down admit they innovate in.

That aside, almost every example you gave isnt actually innovative at all, except of course the ones ive already mentioned. Many of them are damned fine games, but the core almost every one is a refinement of an existing play dynamic. I guess the problem is partially the game media itself, the word innovative is thrown around WAYYYY to much, so people start associating refined with innovative.

If you really want, im willing to break down the evolution of almost every game you've listed and illustrate the game is just a refinement on something that has already been done. Hey, dont get me wrong, its just as true in the west anymore... I think innovation on both sides of the pond is pretty stagnant. I have hype hopes the revolution is as advertised. But I doubt it :(

I have a feeling though, no matter what is said, you and I will disagree on this point. Your definition of innovation seems to be of a much smaller grain then mine.

Re:No Shit

[brkello]

You have issues, my friend. Japanese are "suckers" just like everywhere else in the world. XBox was just not geared to their lifestyle. They like sleek, compact designs since they have much smaller living spaces. The original controller was too large for their hands. The XBox was designed with a Westerners in mind and that is why it failed there. Not because they aren't suckered in as much as Westerners or some other ignorant, racist statement like that. There are plenty of appealing things about the XBox and there are plenty of good games as well. Just because you weren't impressed with Halo, many others were. What gives you the right to tell others what there taste should be? The XBox is graphically superior to the PS2 and the Gamecube. I don't mind the fact it takes up space, I have a big house. I like the controller better than my other consoles. But I like having all the three because all three have great exclusive games. Get over your elitist attitude. Yeah, all the new conosles are all FPS/media machines...give me a break. You know what they are...they are computers, that's it. So if you think they are lame, you must hate the thing you are typing on right now because it is essentially the same damn thing.

I wish you would wake up and see not everyone has to like the same things you like. Seriously, grow up.

Re:No Shit

[Cornflake917]

If you're going to use Starcraft as an example, you might as well use Warcraft I and II. Starcraft IMHO is still the best RTS out there though.

Re:No Shit

[Cornflake917]

Wow, you modders have some serious issues. Any time some one says something along the lines of "Americans are naive and stupid," they get modded insightful. Why is that? The parent's post is nothing but flamebait.

There are no such thing as "FPS/Media Consoles." Hentai and dating games are not innovative (serously you're trying to tell us porn is innovative?) And Americans aren't clueless about video games. They just have a different and less socially inept taste of video games than the parent's.

Re:No Shit

[identity0]

Your understanding of innovation is absurd, if you think that the endless streams of American FPSes, RTSes, and EASports titles are worthy of being called 'innovation'. I could make just as much fun of "Doom Quakem Forever XVIII Arena Tournament to Capture Some Goddamn Flag" or "Madden (insert year here)" or "Command of Warcraft: Age of Kingdoms XX", or "NASCAR: Turn Left For Three Hours". Of course, there are innovative games coming out of the US, as there is in Japan, but let's just ignore that and throw insults at longstanding series, shall we?

The only new genre that has come out recently are rythm games, and I believe Japan created it. Other genres created by Japan include stealth games, rail shooters, 3d racing games, etc.

there isnt alot of difference between Western European, Canadian and American developers to make a distinction.
I think many of them would take offense at that, especially the Europeans. They have distinct differences in design, especially the French.

1) CREATED THE FIRST COMMERICALLY SUCCESSFUL CONSOLES!!!! Hmmm... thats a pretty big one isnt it? The Atari and Intellivision basically invented the market. Not to mention the games on those systems pioneered most of the concepts that are cloned today.
Yes, and you guys lost the crown sometime between the SMS and NES. So keep bragging about your pre-80s dominance. Care to name an American console you'd like to have that came out between the Atari and the Xbox?

2) Created the first 1st person shooter. Thats a pretty big deal, no?
And you guys have been remaking that same game ever since, with bettwer graphics. What coming out next year, "Return to The Ruins of Castle Wolfenstein to Beat A Dead Horse"?

3) Basically created every innovation in sports games.
I don't play those, but IIRC, Europeans were ahead in innovation for soccer and racing games for a long time.

4) Pioneered physics in games.
Care to explain? Nearly every game has an inbuilt physics system, so I assume you mean 'realistic physics'?

5) The entire line of SIM games. Hell, basically Will Wright has ever done.
The guy has been flogging a dead horse for years. He does have his fans, though.

6) The god game genre. Aka, Populous
You mean the one that was made by a Frenchman?

7) The first real time strategy games. Aka, Star Craft
Ahahaha... you must be new at this "gaming" thing, if you can't remember WarCraft II, C&C (not the music factory), Dune II... there are others that are arguably 'RTSes', but Dune II from Westwood Studios is generally considered the first RTS.

8) Computer RPGs. Yeah, the thing everyone thinks Japanese do so well refined from North American games.
American RPGs are different enough from Japanese RPGs that many consider them separate genres. American RPGs are like a D&D game with a computer instead of a GM, Japanese RPGs are more action and character-oriented.

Re:No Shit

[Serapth]

Argh... same bloody thing.

FPS's arent innovative... the first one was. If you read my other posts ive made, I already explained dune is regarded as the first RTS.

Innovation was about the first console, the first FPS, the first RTS, etc... etc... after that, theres a ton of derivitive shit, but thats never been what I was talking about.

Re:No Shit

[bullitB]

One mediocre game is not enough to get them excited in the least.

Rather, it takes dozens of mediocre games. Long, multi-game series of mediocre games. Entire generes of mediocre games.

Use of irritating, nonsensical titles helps too.

Re:No Shit

[Anonymous Coward]

most people whoever claim that Dune was the first true RTS

Dune 2, actually. Dune was an odd sort of strategy game. Herzog Zwei on the MegaDrive/Genesis also has a claim to the title of "first RTS".

Re:No Shit

[rAiNsT0rm]

I would love for you to show me how Game and Watch is not one of the biggest innovations and spawned the entire console market. I would love for you to show me prior art for Bubble Bobble, I would also love to see how you attempt to break some of these down. Shenmue was the first title to have unrestrained production values, another huge innovation... not in game design/play but in how games are created. Not all innovation means that it has been done before, simply an innovative twist that changes gaming overall or in it's genre. Innovation does not mean totally new, never been done before, change the world... if it did then after the total number of plotline structures for books/film were defined no one has innovated since. c'mon. I find it so funny how many people are angered by the fact when someone states the Japanese innovate in electronics and games... it is a fact. Americans, europeans, and the rest have done soem cool shit too... but they are hardly the driving force of the media. Ever notice how MS needs to pander to the Japanese to succeed, there is a reason, America and Europe put together don't matter to them if they can't capture at least a chunk of Japan and Japanese designers.

Re:No Shit

[wheany]

What about Rogue Squadron and Rogue Leader?

For all the hype

[theREALMcCoy]

Micrsoft spews about their video game division, the Xbox is still a distant second in the US and tied for second with Nintendo world wide. It should come as no surprise that there is little to no interest for the Xbox360 in Japan, there has been very little interest in the original Xbox everywhere.

microsoft knows this

[hammeredpeon]

interviews with ballmer have him saying things like "sony will win japan, we plan on winning europe and america."

they might try to focus on them just in the off-chance they can get a decent market share, but nobody's kidding themselves about microsoft being able to win the war in japan.

Re:microsoft knows this

[Flunitrazepam]

" interviews with ballmer have him saying things like "sony will win japan, we plan on winning europe and america" ... "And then we're going to Washington, DC, to take back the White House. YAAARRR!"

What about retailers

[Anonymous Coward]

There is something I don't understand; with the 'poor' sales that the Gamecube recieved (in comparison to the PS2) in North America it seems to have the smallest retail space associated to it. With such small space only the newest or best selling titles tend to have any decent shelf life. Now, being that Microsoft's wet dream is to have 1/8th the popularity of the Gamecube (in North America) with the XBox 360 (in Japan) why are any retailers even bothering to sell XBoxes and XBox games in Japan?

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that if the 360 doesn't have a dramatically larger apeal in Japan that the XBox did then retailers will simply refuse to cary it; thus killing the system in Japan. Maybe I'm just being cynical, but look at the N-Gage; it has similar popularity in North America that the XBox has in Japan and do you see it regularly for sale at retailers? Does Walmart cary it?

Gameindustry.biz

[Silicon Mike]

Everytime I go to their site I look for the place to mark their articles 'troll'.

Doesn't surprise me

[alvinrod]

Given how the Xbox sold so poorly in Japan, I'm not surprised that the Xbox 360 is expected to. To get an idea of just how much the Japanese seem to dislike the Xbox take a look at this article from GameSpot about sales in Japan for various games/consoles.

The Xbox sales for the first half of this year are 9,000 some units. Well that's to be expected from old hardware right? Wrong, the PS2 sold over one million units in the same time frame, and it's older than the Xbox. Additionally the top selling Xbox game in the period was Fable, selling 12,000 units. A re-released PS game sold more copies than it.

I'm not sure what it is about Japanese consumers that turns them away from the Xbox. Maybe it's the fact that both Sony and Nintendo are Japanese companies whereas Microsoft is from the US. Even with games like FFXI slated to come out for the Xbox 360, I don't think it's going to do much for it in the Japanese market. I firmly believe it will be #1 in America, but in Japan it might as well not even try.

Re:Doesn't surprise me

[thesandtiger]

I think it is largely a cultural difference, not a nationalistic difference.

Look at the styles of the games that do well in the larger markets in Japan and the US. For the most part, the Japanese mainstream just doesn't get into the same stuff that makes the USians buy games, and for the most part the reverse is true in the US.

If Microsoft wants the 360 to do well in Japan, they're going to need to make a huge investment in getting a large library of games that the average Japanese person will want to play. Sony did it right with the PS and PS2 - they have a huge library of games for Japanese gamers, and another huge library of games for USian gamers.

Now as to the FFXI game for the 360 - that's *one* game. And, there will be a few more that are *sort of* geared towards the Japanese market. But, unless Microsoft can come up with a must-have like Nintendogs, these few titles just aren't going to cut it.

To put it in reverse: Imagine if the PS2 library of "american" games numbered less than a dozen - no sports games, no beat-em-ups, no driving games, none of that stuff. How many USians do you think would buy a PS2 just so they could play Parappa the Rapper? My guess - about the same number proportionately as the number of Japanese who'll buy a 360 for FFXI.

Re:Doesn't surprise me

[Juanvaldes]

To put it in reverse: Imagine if the PS2 library of "american" games numbered less than a dozen - no sports games, no beat-em-ups, no driving games, none of that stuff. How many USians do you think would buy a PS2 just so they could play Parappa the Rapper? My guess - about the same number proportionately as the number of Japanese who'll buy a 360 for FFXI.
I believe that was called the Gamecube.

Re:Doesn't surprise me

[Anonymous Coward]

"I believe that was called the Gamecube."

MS in their wildest dreams won't sell as many Dreamcast 360s in Japan as Nintendo sold GC's in the US.

Mark the article as flamebait

[AzraelKans]

Seriously guys, why do tou even try to name the xbox here in slashdot? are you fond of answers such as "xbox suck$! instead lets propose nintendo as a new religion!" or "fps are the the same since doom"? most of the people here use linux and/or are over 30, they hate MS with the passion of a thousand tortured souls.

Anyway, yes it did came as a surprise, not this article, but the lack of asian oriented games for x360 out of the bunch of fps titles and heavily american based games (such as madden) only 3 or 4 seem to care about that market. FF online, the new rpg by the creators of FF, shenmue some number (which wasnt even shown) and 99 knights. Not enough to warrant the attention. It seems to me MS is not that interested in that market anymore.

Re:Mark the article as flamebait

[Serapth]

I wouldnt say that. What you saw from the XBox was at E3, with marketing targeted at North American gamers. They showed what they figured there target audience wanted to see ( sports games and shooters mostly ).

Later this month, they have their unveiling in Japan. This is most likely where the new announced Square game is going to shown. This is where Mistwalker studios games will be shown... The markets are different and the games those markets want to see are different. I would want until after the Japan specific event has happenned before judging XBox2's appeal to that market.

Re:Mark the article as flamebait

[AzraelKans]

Wow, thanks I didnt knew that, thats the best answer Ive gotten here. ;)

Still there are some key areas where MS apparently didnt considered the Japanese the most obvious of them is size, MS promised the x360 would be smaller, since Japanese want their consoles to be easily portable, they didnt comply with that (although the ps3 isnt so small either). Lets wait and see...

You missed a detail.

[AzraelKans]

Your theory (which is what it is after all) seems interesting except for a detail, if western is so "IN" then shouldnt they be interested in western games as well?

I mean, when anime was completely "IN" America, anime games were also "IN". Suddenly Japanese can handle 2 hours of Pearl Harbor (dear god their resistence for crap is amazing) but they cant play halo ( a space soldier fighting aliens? there must be at least a 100 animes/manga with the same theme) or a Fighting/Volleyball game with girls showing cleavage? (I mean seriously THEY invented that genere)

Anyway if you look at it from a pretty strict point of view, the reason why there arent enough Japanese related games for the xbox is because there arent Japanese developers for the Xbox in the first place, so Why the japanese dont want to develop games for it? since a western console is so "IN" according your theory?

Also the xbox is technically speaking just like and in some details even better than Japanese consoles. So no, technology is not an issue. (and in case you were wondering yes there is xbox live and DSL in Japan)

Sorry but your theory doesnt hold water at all.

Guess what? people who believe the Japanese are a bit protectionist may not be idiots after all.

Re:You missed a detail.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Japanese are not that good at 3-D fighting games. 2-D (aside from the Marvel vs. series and King of Fighters series) fighters, yes, they generally dominate everyone else, but not in the 3-D arena.

The parent poster was just indicating that the Japanese are not as protectionist as people make them out to be. Yes, they embrace American culture, but they don't have to embrace ALL of it. A lot of other open nations embrace American culture, but aside from Canada, who else plays American football (and even then, Canadian football is different).

Re:You missed a detail.

[jclast]

That's exactly the point. You claim the Japanese should want Halo and DOA3 volleyball. Go into any Japanese game store and tell me a Japanese gamer needs an XBox to play a space-themed shooter or a game with cleavage. As far as cleavage goes, they'll get a lot more of it for their money out of a "dating" sim. The XBox failed in Japan not only because it was ugly and big, but because there isn't any compelling reason for the Japanese gamer to buy it.

Re:You missed a detail.

[Anonymous Coward]

I know this will probably hurt your feelings, but anime has never been "in" in America. Sorry, but it's true. There is a specific sub-sub-culture of nerds that are the consumers for anime in the US. It's not even the entire nerd culture, if you can call it that.

It's about like saying the Amiga is a popular computing platform because there are people like this.

Re:You missed a detail.

[jclast]

It may not be as huge as in Japan, but anime certainly is "in" in America.

We have sanitized versions, but look at an elementary school. I guarentee you'll find a bunch of young kids talking about Dragonball, Pokemon, and/or YuGiOh (all Japanese-made anime). Kids will have anime backpacks, shirts, binders, and video games.

Anime is shown on Cartoon Network and G4 (at least one of which, many people with cable get). For those of us with satellite, there's also an entire Anime network. There are several large conventions devoted to anime here (I used to staff ACen when I lived in Chicago), and if the DVDs weren't selling, companies wouldn't be spending money to subtitle and/or dub anime series for North American release. We're even copying anime styles in our own cartoon series. Teen Titans, though made domestically, borrows quite heavily from the anime style.

It may not be your cup of tea, but anime is definitely "in" in the US.

Re:You missed a detail.

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. Anime is as much in as reading comic books. If anime is so in, why is it that for the most part, anime is shown in totally undesirable timeslots (late night, Fridays or Saturdays)? Why are people who watch a lot of anime considered geeks or otakus? It is still very much a fringe thing and has not yet gained widespread adoption. Try talking to a random person about Spirited Away. Chances are, they won't know what you're talking about and that movie won a freakin' Oscar for gods sake.

Only a select few animes are in, but anime as a whole is not.

Those kids who watch Dragonball, Pokemon or YuGiOh, generally only watch those animes and not a single other one. An example of this are my two cousins, one who watches YuGiOh, the other Pokemon. Neither of them even knows what anime is, nor watch any other anime shows at all.

Conventions don't mean shit either. GCC has conventions, Linux has conventions, neither are in.

Re:You missed a detail.

[badasscat]

Your theory (which is what it is after all) seems interesting except for a detail, if western is so "IN" then shouldnt they be interested in western games as well?

Two things:

1. They are interested in western games. They are just not interested in bad western games. American and to some extent European audiences don't seem to see the difference. I mean what are you expecting, a crap GTA ripoff like True Crime: Streets of LA to sell as many copies in Japan as here? A mediocre shooter like Halo selling millions of copies? The fact that American gamers have lost their sense of taste doesn't mean everybody else in the world has.

But good western games do sell there. GTA3 has sold close to 500,000 copies and Vice City also topped the charts, as two examples. EA's sports games also do pretty well. Right now, a Ghost Recon game is sitting at #17. So it's not true that they will not buy western games; they will buy them if they think they're good.

Also, you're assuming every western game is even released there, which is not the case at all. The Xbox library in Japan is miniscule in comparison to here. The number of PS2 games from the west is also tiny there. If they had the choice, they'd probably buy even more than they do - I mean the Xbox is not the only system in the world that western developers release games for.

But...

2. Just because a culture is considered hip or cool doesn't mean every single aspect of that culture has to be accepted. The point I was making is that it's foolish to suggest that the Japanese are generally xenophobic or nationalistic - they are no moreso than any other country, and the fact that so many western brands and products are popular there is proof of that. That doesn't mean they need to have exactly the same tastes as we do, or that they need to accept anything we shove down their throats. This is exactly what MS thought would happen when they released the Xbox originally there, and when it didn't, they acted shocked and surprised. You've got that same mentality.

On the one hand you can take something and say "oh, the Japanese love western culture, so as long as we market this, they'll buy it", and on the other hand you can throw up your hands and say "oh, they're just a bunch of xenophobes, they hate everything that's not Japanese". Neither of these statements is true in the slightest, and I was neither implying nor stating they were.

What I was stating was that there is no ingrained bias against foreign products, and that in fact in parts of the demographic there is an ingrained bias in favor of foreign products. That doesn't mean you don't still have to take individual tastes into account.

There is no big mystery about the Japanese consumer mentality, but it still seems like so many people just don't get it. In almost all basic ways they are just like us. That doesn't mean they have the same tastes as us, but they do make their decisions basically the same way - i.e. "has this company made products I've been happy with before? What is their reputation? Do my friends like their products? Does the product look good? Will the product fit in my house? And do the sub-products [e.g. games] that go along with it also meet those criteria?" It really is not rocket science, but it does require some homework to identify and understand the differing cultural tastes at work.

Guess what? people who believe the Japanese are a bit protectionist may not be idiots after all.

I see you've taken that personally. Looks like I hit the mark.

Re:You missed a detail.

[jclast]

If anime is so in, why is it that for the most part, anime is shown in totally undesirable timeslots (late night, Fridays or Saturdays)?

Is Sci-Fi also not "in" then? Stargate SG-1, Stargate Atlantis, and Battlestar Galactica are all doing well, but they are shown on Friday night.

Why are people who watch a lot of anime considered geeks or otakus?

Because people make fun of other people. Humans suck and make one another feed bad. It's what we do.

Try talking to a random person about Spirited Away. Chances are, they won't know what you're talking about and that movie won a freakin' Oscar for gods sake.

Ask all those same people what they think of Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, Big-O, Princess Mononoke, or countless others, and I'm sure they'll have at least heard of one. I'm sure there are movies that have won Osacrs you've never heard of either.

Only a select few animes are in, but anime as a whole is not.

That's like saying "Only a select few movies are in, but movies as a whole are not." Anime is a medium, not a genre.

Those kids who watch Dragonball, Pokemon or YuGiOh, generally only watch those animes and not a single other one. An example of this are my two cousins, one who watches YuGiOh, the other Pokemon. Neither of them even knows what anime is, nor watch any other anime shows at all.

See above. People enjoy shows for their content more often than the medium on which they are produced.

Conventions don't mean shit either. GCC has conventions, Linux has conventions, neither are in.

Conventions mean there is a following. If nobody liked it, the conventions would fail.

Re:You missed a detail.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, Sci-Fi is not "in". Being "in" implies that something is popular and is part of the mainstream. Reality TV is "in" (unfortunately), comic book movies are "in" (but not comic books), as an industry, movies as a whole is "in", however independent movies are not.

Anime as a whole is not "in", subgenres of anime, in particular the poke/digi-mon genre is "in" (anime I'd like to refer to as pussy avatar animes, due to the main characters indirectly fighting through an avatar).

Having a following does not imply being "in". Having a massive following such that being knowledgeable or involved with whatever it might be is seen cool, is "in".

Re:You missed a detail.

[AzraelKans]

Ok now Im confused. First you said they went to see Pearl Harbor and now you are saying they want quality? ??

Ok so you didnt liked halo, congratulations, what about the millions of people who bought it in America and Europe and play it online almost every day?

Why did the Japanese bought GTA? because is an American game that plays Exclusively in a Japanese console? (at least for a few months)

What about phantom dust? thats a succesful Japanese exclusive xbox game that made fans buy one to play it, and it was published by MS produced by a Japanese company, how come there arent more games like that?

Also you cleverly avoided to answer why Japanese companies dont support xbox.

Look I dont want to state Japan is being racist, but they are clearly being protectionist, Japan dominated the console/videogames market for ages, now the Americans are developing their own consoles and even beating them in some areas (online play per example) is no wonder why they are avoiding it like the pest. (300 Xbox sold in a month? come on xbox is not THAT bad, thats less sales than the ngage!)

I see you've taken that personally. Looks like I hit the mark.

Oh come on! I was just saying your theory doesnt hold water. Is childish to denote those who oppose it, but ok have it your way. It doesnt make your point any less or more valid.

btw:Why dont you try to keep your posts a bit smaller? you could have edited all that to:
"I dont like xboxes therefore millions of Japanese share my opinion and dont buy them. It doesnt matter if thats the only market in the whole world where the xbox is dead last Is just that all the people in the world are stupid, me and Japanese are not." nice theory there.

Re:You missed a detail.

[AzraelKans]

Er.. I never said Anime wasnt "IN" America, it has always been "IN" I guess, but there was a time in which Anime and Japanese Games were extremely "IN" it started with the NES (Mario, SF2, FF, Chrono trigger) and became a phenomenon by the time the Playstation 1 hit (FF7, Tekken, Xenogears, SF Alpha, Guilty gear, etc) I remember playing and talking with people all day about Anime style games available.

I love Anime! ;) but you have to admit Anime games are not so "IN" anymore. GTA and Halo and MGS (which is still kind of anime styled) took that place.

Im not sure If Mario and Pokemon can be called "anime" there has been some discussion in the past about that.

Re:You missed a detail.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever play VF4Evo in Japan? No? I dare you.

(Marvel, yeah, it has depth in all the wrong places and cheese in all the important ones. Everyone knows the Japanese will lose to the Americans every time, because Americans love the Marvel games. But KoF? The best KoF combo tacticians are Japanese.)

Let's run an expriment. I'm willing to put Anonymous Coward's reputation on the line to bet that I can name at least five Japanese masters of VF4Evo for every one non-Japanese tournament-caliber master you can identify.

And if you're talking about Namco and Tecmo fighters....well, who else but dialers care about Namco fighters, and who else but non-Japanese care about the platform that DoA runs on?

Re:You missed a detail.

[PeelBoy]

http://www.nfleurope.com/

Re:You missed a detail.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Why did the Japanese bought GTA? because is an American game that plays Exclusively in a Japanese console? (at least for a few months)"

So fucking foolish. You think GTA's short exclusivity on the PS2 had any bearing on Japan at all? Please tell me you're just trolling, so my opinion on the state of American critical thinking can be safely restored.

GTA is popular in Japan because it's controversial and is considered counter-culture there. It sells there because it's kitschy, not because it's particularly good.

"Also you cleverly avoided to answer why Japanese companies dont support xbox."

I'll answer: There's no money in it. MS failed Japanese buyers by not garnering the support of Japanese devs and pubs. Japanese buyers didn't buy Xbox as a result. So the devs & pubs, having not been courted by MS or even being given a market opportunity to make money on the Xbox, don't go where the money isn't. Can't you tell that this was the problem just by the way MS is trying to fix the problem in the next generation - trotting Mizuguchi and Sakaguchi around like prize ponies. Again, please tell me you're just trolling.

"Look I dont want to state Japan is being racist,"

The Japanese are racist. Yes, not just racially aware, but flat out racist. But that's not germane to the conversation at all.

"now the Americans are developing their own consoles and even beating them in some areas (online play per example)"

You don't understand Japan's gaming history vs. the West's gaming history at all. You are making broad statements without the proper perspective. And the way you're going about it doesn't necessarily make me want to clear things up for your benefit.

"btw:Why dont you try to keep your posts a bit smaller? you could have edited all that to:
"I dont like xboxes therefore millions of Japanese share my opinion and dont buy them. It doesnt matter if thats the only market in the whole world where the xbox is dead last Is just that all the people in the world are stupid, me and Japanese are not." nice theory there."

Given that it's summer, a hi-mag magnifying glass should burn that straw man up just nicely.

Re:You missed a detail.

[PeelBoy]

By that logic the ONLY thing that is in right now is Reality TV and GOD DAMN I HATE IT. Oh, and MAYBE Google and iPod are "in" but not much else really (that I can think of? Maybe Paris Hilton)..

I don't think "in" has to mean every single person in the entire fucking country wants to ride it's nuts. I mean.. that's like.. "really in". That's far surpassed just plain old "in".

It's like the great squirrel fire of '89

Re:You missed a detail.

[jclast]

I wouldn't call the Pokemon games anime. I'd say they're RPGs (pretty good and deep ones cosidering the target audience, too).

The Pokemon television series and movies, however, are definitely anime.

Re:You missed a detail.

[AzraelKans]

I'll answer: There's no money in it. MS failed Japanese buyers by not garnering the support of Japanese devs and pubs. Japanese buyers didn't buy Xbox as a result.

Thank you! there! we can summarize all this conversation to that.


Given that it's summer, a hi-mag magnifying glass should burn that straw man up just nicely.


Im not sure what does that mean, but I dont really want to know.

Btw: Contrary to popular belief, disagring and arguing doesnt mean trolling. ;)

Re:You missed a detail.

[Anonymous Coward]

You realize that for most people video games aren't "in," as well, right? So saying that something popular among one tiny subset of a subset...well, that's like going to visit a prison and deciding that forced anal sex is "in."

You need to pull back a notch from your nerdview. There are always exceptions, but videogames and comic books aren't considered "cool" by society at large, regardless of how cool they are to us nerds.

Re:You missed a detail.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, the video game market is 10 billion a year and growing rapidly.

It is definitely 'in' and getting more 'in' every day.

Re:You missed a detail.

[Lynxara]

Japanese won't play Halo for the reason they won't play most FPS:

1) Games that simulate pointing guns at others from the first person are viewed as excessively violent and offensive. No, seriously, I can dig up quotes from Japanese gamers on this if you want. Third person is okay for some reason, I recall GTA being a hit over there with import fans.

2) Many Japanese gamers experience acute motion sickness when trying to play FPS, any FPS. This phenomenon is well-documented and has lead to the entire FPS genre from Doom on being massively unpopular in Japan. Another one where I can dig up quotes if you like.

So why's it shocking that Japanese don't want to play a game that offends and nauseates them? Protectionism plays some role in the XBox's low numbers in Japan, but it's not the dominating reason. I would point at racism and the disproportionate amount of FPS on the system, myself. 360 might've done better if MS partnered with a Japanese company and emphasized the amount of racing titles, but the Japanese public will never play their games-- or Western games, for that matter-- on an American console as long as there's any alternative.

Re:You missed a detail.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, Sci-Fi is not "in". Being "in" implies that something is popular and is part of the mainstream.

Every second Tom Cruise film seems to murder a Philip K Dick book... doesn't that count?

Re:You missed a detail.

[Shadow99_1]

While certain 'western' things may be 'in' for the Japanese people, in certain cases they are indeed very protectionist of their 'local' brands. Heck even the survey says a huge chunk of those people surveyed would buy a Revolution or PS3 because of the brand. I'll agree that either absolute is true, just like you say, but you do need to admit that their is alot of protectionism in Japan.

Vehicles and Electronics are the biggest things that the Japanese feel protective about when it comes to brands. That said their are exceptions, like 'performance cars' which they are more likely to look at Europe for. For electronics though (which is what consoles are), you don't see very much popularity in the Japanese market for western brands at all. Sony does huge bussiness in the electronics field in Japan and US centric brands like RCA or GE are almost non-existant (also the same with europian brands like Uniden). I'd look up the figures to show you in fancy charts and such, but I think you can handle that on your own....

I wonder how they think it looks?

[selsine]

One thing that the article doesn't talk about, and I wish that it did, was what people thought of the new XBox 360 design.

Now I don't like the way that the new Xbox looks (big disappointment for me) but I'm sure that Microsoft wanted to design something pleasing to Japanese eyes given all the flack that they got about the original Xbox. I just wonder if they were successful.

Does any have any info on this?

Re:I wonder how they think it looks?

[Soul-Burn666]

Quoting another poster:

"Even ignoring that, though, I'm not convinced the Xbox 360 has overcome all of the original Xbox's issues. It is still big. It is still not styled the way the Japanese expect a console to be styled. (Painting the thing white does not automatically make it look like a Japanese product.) The PS3 has some issues too, but Sony's brand loyalty can overcome that. MS is not operating from that position of strength there so they really had to nail the design of the system, and they didn't. At least not for Japan, despite all their best efforts (including consulting with a Japanese design studio - who they seem to have totally ignored)."

Ignoring the "needs" of Japanese gamers

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yes, of course, not nearly enough anime/ninja/samurai games which makes up the bulk of PS2 games. Jesus, don't they get tird of the same shit over and over again?

Re:Ignoring the "needs" of Japanese gamers

[Anonymous Coward]

They do not want your evil gaijin system! Beware, lest they send the evil tentacle fiends after your rectum!

Sick of people calling the Rev a poor E3 showing

[PeelBoy]

The Revolution's showing at E3 was no less poor than any of the other consoles.

Seriously. All we have for the 360 and PS3 are bull shit numbers that mean nothing, there are NO real world numbers just hyped up BULL SHIT.

Second the games shown on the systems were fucking pre-rendered crap that wasn't even running on the console. Whoopty fucking doo.

Third people say the Revo was just an empty box. What, you mean the PS3 was a complete and final product? Fuck no not even close and the same thing goes for the 360. Give me a fucking break.

Oh, so we didn't get to see the controller. Who cares, the PS3 controller is exactly the same as the PS2 controller except now it's a fucking boomerang and the 360 controller hardly looks any different than the XBox controller.

This doesn't really apply to most people here I guess, but if you read comments at sites like joystiq.com or engadget.com or even the bull shit at IGN you'll see how very extreamly pathetic some of those people are.

Japanese 2005 Sales Roundup

[PeelBoy]

http://www.cube-europe.com/news.php?nid=8009

Meanwhile Microsoft continues to lag way behind. Not a single game for the console ranked in the top 100 sales chart for the first half of 2005 - just like 2004. Fable sold the most with 12,090 copies, but this was no where near the 100th place in the chart (Rockman Zero 4 for the GBA, which sold 65,341 copies). Embarrasingly, the best-selling game for the PSOne (a reissue of Valkyrie Profile) still sold double the volume of Fable.

Happily, Nintendo were the top publisher, shipping a total of 3,166,103 games. The company also had the biggest number of games - 17 - in the top 100. Sony Computer Entertainment was in second with around a million less games, followed by Namco in third, while Square Enix and Bandai rounded out the top five publishers

Source

[PeelBoy]

forgot to post the gamespot link which was the source for the story.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/12/news_61288 89.html

Reality Has Set In Up In Redmond

[Anonymous Coward]

The 360/xbox project is getting very close to having the plug pulled on the whole thing.

The 360 was supposed to be 'the big one', 'the one they finally got right' and so on. They were supposed to have secured a good chunk of Sony's exclusive developers and IP. They were supposed to have landed major players in the Japanese game market. They were going to rush to market killing off the bleeding cash first xbox early with new hardware. They were going to carpet bomb the world game and computer media that their big new console was coming out very soon.

Everything went terribly wrong, to put it midly.

They failed to sign up any new significant Japanese developers and titles. They ended up with a couple of "guy who worked on such and such title" landing in the MS camp, but nothing remotely close to what would be needed to take them out of WonderSwan territory in Japanese sales.

Write off Japan and the 360.

Getting more serious. MS after the four to five years of the first xbox have come out with basically no big name system selling IPs other than the one they went in with, Halo. Exclusives sell consoles. The ports and pc titles that made up the rest of the xbox library may be popular with a core but limited group of hybrid pc/console gamers, but they aren't the titles that will get the 100 to 150 million console consumer out there to buy an xbox for.

Despite all the talk about "building a base to grow from" or "brand building" and other such talk about the MS and the xbox, there is only one way you earn marketshare in the console market and that is your library of exclusives. You don't get marketshare for just showing up. Exclusive IPs are an almost one for one relation to marketshare size. MS has virtually the exact same lineup of developers and IPs they had with the first xbox. The same consumers who didn't buy the first xbox are not going to have any reason for buying a second one.

Re:Sick of people calling the Rev a poor E3 showin

[Saige]

Second the games shown on the systems were fucking pre-rendered crap that wasn't even running on the console. Whoopty fucking doo.

You mean, other than the 360 games that were running on Alpha dev kits at E3? At least one system was showing actual games...

Re:Sick of people calling the Rev a poor E3 showin

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually those dev kits aren't exactly the same as the system will be. The dev kits were esentially just dual processor powermac g5s. Who knows if we can really take those "playable xbox360 games" seriously?

*puts on tin foil hat*

Reality Has Set In Up In Redmond Part 2

[Anonymous Coward]

Turning from software to hardware.

The first xbox hardware was an an obscenley expensive brute force piece of multimedia hardware. The nightmare child of a company with little to no console hardware experience with massive amounts of cash at their disposal.

The first xbox came within inches of having the plug pulled on it when it became clear that the the only thing growing rapidly was the red ink. Despite all the big talk from teenage MS fans, the three to five billion lost on the fist xbox is a big deal. MS has been cutting costs for a year now to prop up their flat to slowing sinking stock price over the past five years. They have made cuts over the past year that are on par with losses the xbox project has racked up. The xbox red ink is definitely on the radar for MS. It is the biggest, fattest target for cutting.

The result of this attempt to avoid the tremendous losses of the first xbox is the very weak 360 hardware. It should be clear to everyone why MS's talking points have been trying to downplay hardware for the past year. They know what they have is weak. They weren't able to just throw money at the hardware this time. They are so worried about the weak 360 hardware they have gone to the extraordinary length of renaming their dev kit and using that name change in their marketing, XNA.

The weak 360 chip that MS got IBM to rush out the door would be bad enough in itself, but the rushed timeline for shipping has meant that developers aren't getting the first real 360 devkits to just four to five months before launch. This is bad, very, very bad. I can't think of another console where developers didn't have real hardware devkits for at least a year before launch. The weak hardware mixed with the last minute access to real hardware is going to result in games that are most likely not even on par with current desktop computer games. The mostly pc game dev houses that make up the bulk of the 360 developers are having a major issues getting performance out of the hardware.

Redmond of course knows all of this and I would not be surpised if the plug gets pulled before the 360 hits the shelves. There are really three options for them now:

1) Soldier on. Rack up the losses again with another 10-20 million Dreamcast/Xbox system

2) Back to the drawing board. The real devkit hardware is just making it to developers. It would cause havoc for schedules and the contract lawyers would have their hands full redoing all the current 360 title contracts to take into account a delay in the hardware. But MS would be able to go back to IBM and try to find a way to come up with a new version of the 360 CPU that is at least in the same league as the PS3's and the Revo's

3) Take the PR hit and just pull the plug.

Option 2 would be the best, although since there is no way MS is getting their hands on any of the Cell stuff STI is working on, I can't think of what IBM could give MS other than another expensive brute force solution like slapping more CPUs in and expensive cooling.

Re:Reality Has Set In Up In Redmond Part 2

[Anonymous Coward]

I think at this point in time the XBox 360 will continue, and be lanched, regardless of what else happens. The system is, for the most part, powerful enough for most games that will be produced and graphically impressive enough for the average consumer. The biggest problem for Microsoft is that they're launching their system at the exact wrong time.

Microsoft figures that by launching the 360 a holiday season prior to the release of the PS3 or Revolution that they will be able to capatilize on the lack of competition; this is a horribly flawed assumption. This holiday season the PS2, Gamecube, XBox, Nintendo DS, GBA and PSP all have good games that are comming out for them, and will probably have price cuts and pack in deals (to sell hardware that hasn't already been sold). This means that at a time when the competition for consumer dollars is at it's highest Microsoft will be releasing a new system.

Not only is the competition this holiday season going to be stiff but the XBox hasn't been out long enough to justify a successor; I can see what some potential customers will say "What, they're releasing a new system already? My XBox is good enough now anyways." 4 years is too short of a period of time to be starting over; developers and customers will probably not apprieciate it.

Once again, like the XBox, any long term survival of the 360 will depend more on the willingness of Microsoft to loose money than on any other feature.

Re:Sick of people calling the Rev a poor E3 showin

[PeelBoy]

Did you get to play the game? Did ANYBODY get to play the game? Did you even get to see what that "Alpha dev kit" actually was? Do we even know for sure if it was an actual game, running on an actual dev kit for the 360 or are we just taking their word for it?

Re:Sick of people calling the Rev a poor E3 showin

[PeelBoy]

ex-fucking-actly. You hit the nail on the head.

My main point was that so many people are bashing nintendo for their "empty" box, yet what do we have for the PS3 and 360? NOTHING for the PS3 (just another empty box) and a pre-alpha dev kit that isn't even CLOSE to being a real 360? Exactly, another empty box. Pathetic!!

Nintendo's showing was no worse than Sony or MS it was just much less hype and that's it. As far as real substance goes Nintendo's showing was on par with everybody else.

How come nobody talks about how Sony's PSP E3 showing faired against the DS? Not so well.. Not so well at all. Yet not a single word about it anywhere.. WTF?

Japan is racist and xenophobic.

[Anonymous Coward]

This has been in the news recently:

An independent investigator for the UN says racism in Japan is deep and profound, and the government does not recognise the depth of the problem.

That's the issue that the Xbox is encountering in Japan. When you have restaurants and clubs with signs on the door that say "Japanese Only" - and in a culture so obsessed with protectionism and patriotism for Sony, any foreign competitors are going to have a problem. If rednecks ran the US, Sony would have the same problem here.

It speaks silent volumes for the accepting nature of the American consumer that they embrace foreign products like Japanese game machines and cars, often in favor of domestic products (sometimes even unjustly dismissing the US product because it's "cool" to hate products made by your countrymen).

More here on Japan's racism.

Re:Japan is racist and xenophobic.

[Anonymous Coward]

If rednecks ran the US

Have you ever watched C-SPAN? Our president prefers the nickname "Dubya." Our last president was called "Bubba." Our House Majority Leader is a former exterminator from Texas. The previous Majority Leader (also a Texan) called another congressman "Barney Fag." The longest serving Senator of all time, got elected on a platform of racial inequality and was re-elected consistently for ~50 years. Ronald Reagan enjoyed dressing as a cowboy. The list goes on and on.

No friend, the US is run by rednecks. Sorry.

Some Commentators

[Anonymous Coward]

From TFA
"but some commentators have suggested that there is also a basic unwillingness among Japanese consumers to invest in a console produced overseas."

What was somebody in here saying about xenophobia again?

Re:Sick of people calling the Rev a poor E3 showin

[Saige]

Ummm, people played Perfect Dark Zero on the Alpha dev kits for the whole MTV special (which was pretty bad, the only part I cared about was seeing the girls who run my clan on there). Multiple other people have played actual games on those dev kits.

And I've seen actual games running on an actual 360. No canned stuff. And I've seen both Alpha and Beta dev kits up close. I've watched other stuff running on the hardware too.

I want to know...

[Lemental]

Why the HELL do people think that the Japanese Shit dont stink?

Most good video games were made here first. Remember Atari? Remember Commodore? Some of the most memorable moments in gaming took place on those two systems, yet your collective heads are so far up the Japanese ass that you cant smell the shit they produce. I can think of one innovative title off the top of my head that came from the far eastern shores last year. Katamari...Thats it. The rest was Ratchet and Clank, Sly cooper, and Mario rebranded crap.

Ooh, look, another Resident Evil title...wonder if I kill zombies in THIS ONE TOO! It was eye candy, face it. Paper Mario 2? BWAHAHAHAAH. My kids are still playing a near launch title, Animal crossing. Mario party 6! its innovative! Wait, this one has a Microphone! where are you going?

A camera! lets put a camera so you can see how goofy you look. We sold a total of 10 of those things since they have been out. Another reincarnation of GTA, in which you do the same damn things you did in the other 2, except, in a city so large, you get lost if you leave your neighborhood!

Sure, Big N "Supposedly" brought back the console, but, if for some reaon it didnt sell, and, Atari had competent management, we would all be playing the Atari X system. Im not predicting the fall of Nintendo, Just sick of the MS bias around here. They arent going to take over your living room if you dont want them to.

On a closing note, I like Nintendo. I wish they made more games for me, and had a better controller. Until then, I will let my kids enjoy my Nintendo, and, I will be playing the X-Box.

Re:I want to know...

[rohlfinator]

"Ooh, look, another Resident Evil title...wonder if I kill zombies in THIS ONE TOO! It was eye candy, face it."

Which is why the American press named it the fourth best game in recent years, above such American classics as Half-Life 2 and the Halo series. Because it was eye candy. Right.
And I'm sure the American press was also holding their noses when Paper Mario 2 was consistently rated one of the top RPGs of the year, and when Pikmin 2, Metal Gear Solid 3, Zelda: Minish Cap, and Viewtiful Joe all recieved excellent ratings.

Not only that, but three of the titles you mentioned (Ratchet and Clank, Sly Cooper, and GTA) were all made by Western developers. I think you're geography is a little off, unless you consider Europe "the far east".

And no. Atari wouldn't have taken back the market. The public was reluctant to buy the NES because they had been burned so badly by the Western crap that had been shoveled into their Ataris. Nintendo had to market the NES as a toy robot with a game console "peripheral" for American stores to even stock the system. That's how bad Atari screwed things up.

Re:I want to know...

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you even play Resident Evil 4. It had nothing to do with Zombies. The game was taken in a completely different direction. If you don't play the games then don't Blast them. I have to say I do agree though that alot of games were lacking. I am really not a big sports fan but that seems to be the only type of game that is coming out these days. Every time I see a new Playstation 2 game come out it is a sports game.
I wish Nintendo would start making more games that have a good storyline. But this seems to be one of the trends happening now. Everything for the most part is Eye Candy. I am not a Halo fan. I love a game with a story. Give me games such as the Legacy of Kain games, Ninja Gaiden, Zelda...etc.

I believe that the console and game makers are just trying to push out the best looking games or the games that match a certain fad. I haven't played a good Mario title on a console since Super Mario World on SNES. I mean who wants to play the same level over and over and over again. Or play some cross between Mario and Captain Planet. The New Mario Brothers DS looks to have some promise though.

they also need to make games that you can't beat in 1 day. This was about the only thing i found disappointing about MechAssault 2. The game was much too short. But the Multiplayer is fun.

This is another problem i find with current games. Everything is Multiplayer. Death Match, Capture the flag, so on and so forth. while these things are fun i would still rather sit down and play a game that engrosses me into a rich story.

The Dreamcast 360 Japan Failure

[Anonymous Coward]

The Dreamcast 360 flopping in Japan just as badly as MS's first machine just isn't that interesting. Companies put out products that flop all the time.

There is a core group of diehard MS/xbox fanatics somewhere in the 10-15 million or so range. They are massively emotionally invested in MS and the xbox, and most likely most are the same with the Dreamcast. The failure of the first xbox and now with the 360 is causing emotional stress that happens when blind fanaticism comes into contact with reality. It ain't pretty.

The MS/xbox/dreamcast segment of the console world is a lot like the gay segment of the population. They have their desires that are outside the mainstream population and there really isn't anything that will ever change that. They will always be the gay console segment. Regardless if you think God or Nature made them that way.

However, there is one major difference. The gay community at large is perfectly happy to be left alone and could care less if the population at large has the same desires as they do, nor do they think they ranks are growing or 'gaining momentum'
The gay/xbox community really is quite different in that they for some reason feel that some day millions of console consumers are going to wake up and have a desire to play Halo. And that if MS just keeps putting out consoles this day will come.

It's time the gay/xbox segment of console community comes to terms with who they are and just be thankful MS is planning a second machine to play Halo on. The world at large isn't turning gay, anymore than the console world is turning into Halo players.

Re:The Dreamcast 360 Japan Failure

[Anonymous Coward]

How dare you insult the gay community by comparing to the xbox. Shame on you.

Re:Sick of people calling the Rev a poor E3 showin

[Anonymous Coward]

At least Sony and Microsoft had something to show. The Revolution was just a box that had, for all we know, shredded newspaper on the inside. Sure, the PS3 and Xbox 360 boxes probably contained the same newspaper, but at least they were there in some other incomplete form, running some demos.

More importantly, people got some indication that certain new games would be coming out on these two machines. With the revolution, we got the promise that the system will play all old Nintendo games. Forgive me if I'm a little more excited at the prospect of playing new games, and not old ones.

Why should Microsoft care?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why should Microsoft care about the Japanese market? It's the only region whose spending on games is decreasing and it is incredibly oversaturated in the gaming market. The fact is that Sony needs the USA far more than Microsoft needs Japan.

XBOX has won the minds of American mainstream adult gamers. XBOX 360 is in a good position to capitalize. Halo trumps the more Japenese-y style games such as Metal Gear Solid.

What it comes down to is that Microsoft doesn't really have to be dominant in Japan this generation. They can kill Sony in a war of attrition in the US & Europe. Japan will fall when Sony is irrelevant.

Sony is unlike Micrsoft here in that they MUST make a profit in gaming. Yet, launching second, they won't have the luxury of being #1 this gen.

They lose all their clout with publishers and all their brand advantage. Then they ship a year later on shaky technology, historically weak API's and poor developer support (READ: big learning curve). The first gen games on the PS3 will be like the PS2's....not impressive, especially when compared to the XBOX 360's 2nd generation games.

Sony was in a position of absolute dominance with the PS2, but they let a Lion walk into the room this generation. It was a big mistake and they will pay for it dearly.

But, back to the point. Japan, in this battle, for all intents, is irrelevant.

Re:Why should Microsoft care?

[Anonymous Coward]

So, ignoring the Japaneese market will benefit Microsoft?

I don't think that Sega, Konami, Namco, Square-Enix, and Capcom will be glad to hear that. I can just imagine how great the 360 will be, all EA and UBI soft games nothing else ...

Japanese like their own stuff

[Neo-Rio-101]

When the Xbox first came out in Japan, the Xbox section looked as big as the PS2 section, except that the Xbox section had huge TV screens and stacks of marketing glitz in an attempt to lure gamers cash.

Meanwhile, PS2 section had all the games everyone wanted to play - which I think was a far more effective display.

Nowadays, the Xbox section is barely visible, and the PS2 displays haven't really changed an bit. The old Xbox displays of old were obvious attempts at astroturfing, and nobody fell for it.

The Xbox (apart from all it's other issues) had TONS of crappy US games on it, which all had great graphics, zero gameplay, and themes which nobody in Japan could relate to. Aside from the locally produced Shogi and "Go" Xbox games, there was literally nothing else locally produced... and the PS2 had Shogi and Go as well.

For the Xbox to do well in Japan it has to have local content which isn't found anywhere else. Machines sell on the huge RPG licences (Final Fantaay, Dragon Quest, etc.) and all Xbox had to show for itself was Shogi, Go, and Halo (which was a FPS game which only marginally grabbed Japanese attention).
The Xbox also needs more wacky, offbeat, cute, off-the-wall games.... rather than just yet-another-racing-shooting-sports-game. Maybe Jeff Minter should be doing more on the Xbox than making the psychadelic music visualizer on the hardware.

I think there is a slight bias against Microsoft here as well - thanks to brand recognition and consumer trust of Japanese companies more than foreign ones. Microsoft gets Windows onto Japanese computers by proxy of the Japanese companies here who make the hardware. If the Japanese companies didn't make PC hardware, Microsoft wouldn't even get a shoe in the door. Consumers trust Fujitsu, NEC, Sony, etc. to care for them when Windows goes bad.

Maybe if the Xbox hardware was developed by NEC or something..... or if Microsoft touted their hardware partners some more - such as IBM (IBM has a good rep here for notebooks)

Re:Japanese like their own stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you illustrate an important point about Microsoft and the Xbox.

The people running the Xbox project are some mix of incompetent and stupid.

For how poorly they have executed I am shocked they have managed to keep the project going this long. The Xbox project is like some amazing five year long trainwreck. When a media event like the MTV unveiling special goes so wrong that it has become the stuff of legend in the console market and most current Xbox owners don't blink an eye, you know they have become desensitized to the incompetence.

Having met more Xbox people from Microsoft than I ever had a desire to, I can best sum them up with a phrase a guy who works for me called them after one meeting: "Badass Retards"

There seems to be no requirement of having any knowledge of anything relevant to the console market to land a job on the Xbox team. Just some vauge desire to "kick ass." People should go read the public interviews with these guys if they have any doubts to what I'm saying.

Why doesn't MS have anything outside of Halo for exclusives? Why doesn't MS have anything that will appeal to the Japanese market? Because console dev house come away with a "What the fuck was that?" feeling after coming into contact with them. And more importantly a "Why the hell would I want to bet my company's future on these type of people?"

Your points about what went wrong, and will go wrong again, in Japan for Microsoft are correct, but the problems for MS and Xbox are at a fundemental level.

Re:Protectionism? - Hell yes!!!

[kilauea]

So in your limited view there is no racism in Japan?

And the real answer is......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4671 687.stm