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Gates On Future of CS Education
lilrowdy18 writes "In an interesting article from Eweek, Microsoft chairman and chief software architect Bill Gates talks about how the lack of spending in research and development is 'kind of a crime'. He also talks about future problems that are facing the computer industry including outsourcing and the speed of upcoming processors." From the article: "Microsoft taps both native-born talent and foreign talent, but Gates said he is frustrated that more U.S. students are not going into computer science. 'The fastest growing major is physical education,' he said. 'The Chinese are going to wake up and say we missed this opportunity,' he joked."
It wasn't mentioned in the article, but Bill also donated 2 million copies of Visual Basic .NET to all universities in US, more copies are available on request.
The software shall help easing both the finance and skill shortage.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
when every other news article talks about jobs being outsourced and the layoffs that are happening all over the place, most recently at HP.
Maybe that's because Microsoft has demonstrated that a technology company doesn't have to engage in any original work at all in order to be wildly successful, at least in the current US legal climate...
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
The lack of spending in windows [security/stability/logo's and icons/etc] R&D
Zing!
...how the same corporations that complain taxes are too high also whine about the government not spending taxes to help their industry.
Let's see here:
1) Four years of one of the most time intensive majors in colleges
2) Going through Microsoft's dehumanizing interview process
3) Getting free soda in exchange for 80 hour work weeks at minimum wage
4) Getting fired at age 28 for being too old
versus...
Well, anything actually.
One correction, Mr. Gates.
It is we in North America who are asleep, and who will one day wake up and have to admit that we missed the opportunity.
The Chinese are wide awake.
When academics and computer scientists create "standards" as a result of substantive research, MSFT chooses to ignore them. If MSFT hasn't come up with something themselves, or hasn't had a key role in financing/advising the development, then they don't use the standard. If they don't use the standard, then it never actually becomes a de facto standard, due to their monopolistic hold in the computing world.
Who wants to produce research that is dead before it's ever published? Especially for those who see research as a way of improving the world in some (even small) way, it seems that CS research in many directions may not be the way to go...
Sounds like an excuse for outsourcing. It has been my experience that more people (in the US) go into CS than can obtain a career in CS. I think it is incorrect that we are missing the boat. The boat has already sailed for cheaper employment waters.
if he's complaining about the lack of CS students, then perhaps he should pay graduates more, stop outsourcing to India and relying on H1b visas... then people might just believe there's a future in CS... he and several others like him are the root cause of the problem...
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
Why get a degree in a field that already has an oversupply of workers, and in addition is continuing to outsource even more of those jobs that are left?
American high schoolers might be stupid, but they're not that stupid.
Is because we believe/afraid that we wont have a job when we get out of college due to all the out sourcing going on in IT. People don't want to spend all their money on a great education, to not have chance at a job when they graduate. So they look into other majors, while possibly doing some code on the side. Simple as that.
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Ladies and gentlemen, he might finally have a good point. At my current school, one that has approximately 2000 students, the minimum requirement of 12 students per class to keep it active was not met for ANY computer class (web/graphic design excluded), so they will ALL be canceled next year. This WILL (excluding the debt, corruption, etc) be the reason for the US becoming a second or third world nation, unless this trend is reversed.
+1 funny, -2 overrated. Life isn't fair.
... perhaps it is because the modern CS students have just spent three years learning about operating systems by using open source operating systems?
Once upon a time you could make real money by working for a startup Microsoft. Today, it's just another job and all the cool ideas are coming out of Google.
In the USA, they're not only laying off IT and CS staff, they're even letting H1-B visas go unused, not that that's keeping Bill and others from lobbying to raise the H1-B cap anyway.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Gee, this is like the pot calling the kettle black, how many jobs as Mr. Gates company outsourced I wonder?
The guy is just playing the governments of the world off one another to benefit his own company. Not really news.
How many of your Comp. Sci. peers got jobs before graduating from college? I know that only two of my fellow students did. How many business, accounting, education, and other students get jobs? Again, I don't know about your experience, but all my friends who chose not to major in Comp. Sci. did quite well and landed nice jobs BEFORE they got their diplomas.
Supply and demand. This is a no-fucking-brainer for students who go to college in order to get jobs and move on with their careers. Last time I checked, nobody wants to spend -- or waste -- for years of school in order to end up unemployed. There are tons of articles that describe newly minted CEOS who decide to hire and developm in India or China because it is cheaper. Kids read that and decide not to fall into the same hole as the previous generation.
Sorry Bill, not every students gets to be one of the wealthiest people on the planet. Software was hot in 80s. Now it is a freaking commodity. Let's move on.
Gates talking about the problems facing the computer industry is like listening to Dom Deluise talk about the benefits of dieting.
from a dropout?
If it's not Consolidated Lint, It's just fuzz!
From TFA:
Microsoft taps both native-born talent and foreign talent, but Gates said he is frustrated that more U.S. students are not going into computer science.
This is the same Bill Gates that wants to completely eliminate H-1B quotas (that is, allow an unlimited number of foreign software developers in). This is the same Bill Gates that is constructing a huge, sprawling Microsoft Campus in India.
You want more students going into Computer Science, Bill? Then quit telling American students, through your actions, that there won't be any software development jobs left for them in America by the time they graduate!
He's just another F'ing "I want cheap labor at the expense of American workers" prick. Excuse my French.
With the current unemployment rate in CS, the US can limp along for a few years with zero new admissions to CS schools...
Oh well, what the hell...
is because kids nowadays are taught that wishing makes it so, that you can never be 100% right about anything, that there's no way to really know reality, that nobody has any control over anything, and that public opinion is more important than facts.
Faced with this, why NOT go into some soft social science, where you can graduate, and go work for some policy making body, who can govern the skeleton of America's scientific establishment
? Take the short-cut!
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
The next time someone calls Gates a technical genius, remember this quote.
Who gets paid millions of dollars to play games?
Athletes and coaches
Who gets put on the covers of countless magazines?
Athletes and coaches
Who gets multimillion dollar contract buy-outs when they fail to perform?
Athletes and coaches
Who gets invited on Leno and Letterman?
Athletes and coaches
Who gets multimillion dollar endorsement deals?
Athletes and coaches
Who gets put on posters and tacked to the walls of thousands of teenagers?
Athletes and coaches
Who gets worshipped and forgiven for all sins for being successful?
Athletes and coaches
Who gets teased mercilessly throughout their school years?
Science geeks and nerds
Who gets fired to raise stock prices even after successful work?
Science geeks and nerds
Who gets taunted and degraded by society at large?
Science geeks and nerds
Who gets underpaid for long hours and little security?
Science geeks and nerds
Who gets to spend 4-8 years in school in a difficult, demanding major with perceived diminishing job opportunities?
Science geeks and nerds
The perception is that you have to be born with certain talents and abilities to become a great athlete, but you can be trained to be a coach (even a mediocre one) and at least be in that field, so something fun, and bask in the reflected glory of the truly talented. Plus, we're not outsourcing football yet.
Yeah, I can't imagine why so many people are choosing PE over CS.
Actually that's from the book "Dumbing Down Our Kids : Why American Children Feel Good About Themselves But Can't Read, Write, or Add" by my local talk show host Charlie Sykes.
If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
1) Four years of one of the most time intensive majors in colleges
I actually thought my CS classes were the easy ones. It was that damn Lit class that gave me hell.
2) Going through Microsoft's dehumanizing interview process
There are (e-gahds!) other companies to work for you know. You don't HAVE to be evil.
3) Getting free soda in exchange for 80 hour work weeks at minimum wage I don't get free soda, and I only put in 5 hours of overtime a week to run nightly processes. I get paid a good deal more then minimum wage.
4) Getting fired at age 28 for being too old
I'm only 26, so I can't say for sure, but my Boss (a former mainframe coder) is in his 50s, my team lead is in his late 30s and another developer on the team is in his mid 40s.
Just wanted to shed some light on the ACTUAL life.
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
So maybe we'll be dethroned as having The most overweight teens because of the global obesity problem
well, what would you rather have a country of obese programmers who die of heart disease at age 40? or some of our smarter more talented people going into teaching kids how to exercise and diet properly, so they can lead longer heathier lives.
I guess gates would rather have the former... and rely on computers to design the medical technology to replace a 'frail' human cardiovascular system ith a 'easily replacable' mechanical system..
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
1. Wait for decline in CS enrollment
2. Get a CS degree at nation's all time low for CS students
3. Become the best programmer in the US (the only one left)
4. Get the best programming job in the US
5. Profit!!!
One of the causes of this is simple -- to earn a CS degree, to be eligible for CS-related jobs, and to qualify yourself to be recognized as a professional CS individual, you have to teach yourself more than what you are taught. Almost every other discipline you can take at school teaches you what you need to know, but CS does not.
Want to become an accountant? We'll show you how.
Want to become a doctor? We'll show you how.
Want to become a computer scientist? We'll show you fundamental principles of CS, examine the primitive roots of CS and (formerly) popular programming languages, but the rest is up to you!
Two years into my CS degree, I came to the conclusion that I needed to teach myself to be useful post-University. I've done just that. Now I preach to my friends that they should be spending more time researching and learning the things they really need to know (new technologies, new programming languages) that will qualify them for jobs when they get out, rather than dedicate all their time to their to outdated cirriculms (and some professors).
Improve and update the typical CS cirriculum, and I'm sure more individuals will be attracted to the programs, knowing that, with confidence, they will be qualified after they are handed their degree.
For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother.
Gates says "The fastest growing major is physical education" but we all know that it isn't CS majors jumping ship to do jumping jacks.
I only came here to do two things; kick some ass, and drink some beer...looks like we're almost out of beer.
Wow, that certainly convinced me. A loser friend of yours was able to abuse the system and captitalize on a job market that would do anything for a warm body at a time when we were steamrolling towards a huge bubble burst in an industry. He is now back to where he was, leeching off his wife, with no future and no accomplishments besides defrauding stupid companies.
On second though, I think I'll keep my CS degree.
Anyone can spend money, and I'm quite aware of the many things that they're supposedly working on, but why aren't we seeing any real benefit in the Microsoft products that we're actually using on a day-to-day basis?
It's one thing to work on pie-in-the-sky research (and I have no problem with that), but quite another to do that while also continuing to maintain one of the most problematic computing platforms in history in an almost unchanged state for over a decade.
Some of the money might be better spent researching things like Linux Capabilities, a feature that the mainframe OSes I play^H^H^H^Hwork on for a living have had for a number of decades now.
I mean, UNIVAC boxes and VAXen both had the concept of a permissions bitmask down over 20 years ago, so what the heck is Microsoft's problem? Too expensive to implement? I think not...
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
Don't laugh at Physical Education Mr. Gates. With our obesity rates skyrocketing and diabetes II coming already to teenagers, this epidemic will be much more costly than simply having a few less Microsoft Certifieds around.
In highschool, my gym teacher Mr. Brynard taught a better nutrition (more practical and teenage oriented) than the middle school's dietician and also was instrumental in deciding to that the vending machines in school serve no soda. I'm not saying that this is the case everytime - but the ones I met were generally very well self-motivated.
I think they'll do more good than an extra programmer or two.
And Mr. Gates also falls into the trap thinking that more programmers = more productivy. I can't really envision Mr. Brynard as the type of guy sitting down and programming for eight hours a day just because it bought more money. How happy and productive are those people who do it for the money anyway?
There's more to the world than computers - let's remember that.
Sure there are a lot of people majoring in physical education, it is a required course in a lot of high schools. Computer programming is rarely a required course in high school. Perhaps it should be. If it were, it might spark a lot of interest and talent developement in a lot of people before they even go to college and think about choosing a major.
The big problem with teaching computer science in high school (or a lot of other things) is that teachers make a lot less money than computer programmers. Most people who are qualified enough to teach computer science would find they can make a whole lot more money doing something other than teaching.
So until you can pay for good CS high school teachers, you aren't going to find a lot of people entering college with an interest in CS. Especially if all their computer experiences have been with a dumb Windows computer.
And that CS degrees is just one of many fields in which the USA is underinvesting.
Not only that, but they think that China does get it, and is kicking sand in our faces.
Gates, of course, cares mostly about his area of expertise.
However, even though we as a society need way more higher education, I don't believe we need a Tablet [as Gates says all students do in the article] nor do I agree that the xBox or xBox 360 is sexy - my first degree was in Marketing/Sales and I'm a geek who owns an xBox and a GameCube.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
I learned computer programming when I was young, toying around with BASIC that came with the operating system. It was a neat toy back then. The few commands and ease of the language was perfect for a beginner, and at a time when games and applications were also simple. You could aspire to write a game that's comparable to the games you played every day.
Today, there is no software compiler bundled with MS operating systems. Sure, you can run VB script. But the difficulty of actually doing something interesting on a novice level is discouraging. Having a free-use IDE (in whatever language) where simple drawing and user interaction is accomplishable at a novice level would boost interest a great deal, where currently the only viable solution to begin learning is to pirate an IDE and fiddle. Software and books on the subjects of computer programming have become so costly that no novice, whether ignorant or keenly aware of potential, can afford to purchase them.
Microsoft's fierce opposition to open-source software is another stumbling block. Open-source software was one of the greatest learning tools for me.
Many third-world countries don't enforce copyright protection. You can buy pirated copies of just about any major piece of software at very low costs. Foriegners have the upper-hand on the middle class and lower class in the US when it comes to affording an education in CS.
Computer programming today is comparable to rocket science yesterday, but you can't acquire a model rocket for less than $500.
Go check out a copy of The Peter Principle (copyright 1969 -- pick up a used copy from Amazon) to confirm that the current decrepit state of our managerial skilz is nothing new.
When the nation's leaders stop rewarding managerial ineptitude and punishing technical workers, we might have a chance of turning this around. You can count on other nations (China, anyone?) not making this particular blunder.
If it offers hope to anyone, in today's WSJ (subscription required) there is a piece advocating outsourcing of our outrageously overpaid top management to bring excessive top management compensation under control. It's the 7th most-emailed article today. But it will take a long time after such practices begin (assuming they ever begin) before they filter down through the corporate structure and clueless incompetence is no longer rewarded.
I thought too that the US were a long way ahead in technology. I came for a conference in Austin, TX last November, and on the way back I stayed for a week in NY. I was disappointed in some ways:
Ok, ok, I have to compensate with some positive points...
Anyway, back to the point: the US are not as advanced as many, Americans and not, think they are. At least not in the level of technology the citizens are exposed to, I have definitely seen enough to deem it unlikely that I was victim of a long series of unlucky coincidences.
Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
CS, CE, and EE at UW are incredibly easy to get into - now that the number of applicants have dropped off significantly.
A friend of mine with a similar intro physics GPA as you did got into CS with no problem. Someone else I know with a 1-point-something in one of the intro calc classes got into EE.
Although grad school is still pretty competitive. Good thing it's not exactly my cup of tea. (Although did you know the UW EE grad program is half women?)
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
of his own success!!! While at Columbia, *ONLY* MS certified courses were supported, while a completely furnished NeXTSTEP laboratory served duty as email terminals to student accounts.
The argument was *anything* other than MS CS related courses was useless, and a waste of students education since there only existed MS related jobs after graduation. So bought-in to the MS monopoly was CU that they saw it as their duty to the Corporate customers who fund its programs to turnout a ready pool of qualified talent that meets their needs, and salary requirements. NYC was a fileLOCK by 1990.
Welcome Bill Gates to YourWorld. You created it. So if you don't like it, look at your own sorry assine monopoly.
You forgot the most important one:
Who gets all the hottest girls?
I don't think I even have to answer that one =P
Who is out of a career at 35, no matter how successful they are?
:)
The majority of athletes and coaches. Think about it, if all athletes went on to be successful coaches, universities would have 1-1 tuition in PE and major clubs would have at least one coach per player.
What are several of the richest men in the world?
Science geeks and nerds.
Of course on the gripping hand, John Madden managed to succesfully cross from PE to computers without ever having a successful sports career
The 2 points I always make about these sorts of articles are:
1) Good riddance. I hope this shakes out some of the riff-raff that jumped on the band wagon in the late 90's, the "I've got l337 VB skillz u owe me 72k/yr." crowd. Only people who are serious about their profession and passionate about it need apply.
2) The entire focus of technology is automation. If you need a huge army of programmers and IT people to support your software, your software is crap. billg does not seem to get this. His is attacking a cost center, like most managers, by looking for a cheap source of commodity resources (code monkeys, sysapes). Rather than building a product which requires minimal support. I twigged on this in the 90's when M$ announced that they wanted to produce 100k newly minted MC*E's. Rather than improve the software, reduce the cost of supporting it.
This is a harsh opinion, I know.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
"how the lack of spending in research and development is 'kind of a crime'."
Which kind of crime is that, Bill?
When you dump tens of billions on a one-time stock prop scheme instead of investing it in R&D?
When you donate $20 billion to a "foundation" so your father can use it to control companies you can't because the SEC won't let you?
When you use your monopoly influence to attract development partners than walk off with their code and try to drive them into bankruptcy like you did that cell phone software company?
When you threaten to fire 8,000 people in a country that doesn't support your software patents initiative?
Read my lips, Bill.
Fuck you.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
I was about to post a great comment about how the parent was too focused on money and how I am perfectly happy making what I make because I am intrinsically motivatived and enjoy what I do.... and then you blow my whole argument out of the water...
damn you!
--
>Replace "band" with "science major" and "football"
;-)
>with "business major" or "PE major" and nearly
>everything still holds at different levels.
>American society not only holds thinkers and
>researchers and scientists and engineers in less
>admiration than celebrities and athletes and
>managers, but it increasingly seems to be actively
>punishing people in those fields.
Yep.
> Me, bitter? Nah!
I'm right there with you (although our band sucked as bad as out football team). But I think you are really onto something. The values of American societry run completely counter to those required to compete in the 21st century. We don't elect intelligent people who propose large complicated solutions.... we elect a guy we would be comfortable 'having a beer with'.
And this is the same reason that no matter what politician does what our education system will continue its downward spiral. Because at our heart America doesn't give a rat's ass about education. Technology is 'for those wierdo's who never get laid'; sadly we even echo this non-stop in these forums (although it is complete and total crap). Somehow it passes for humour when the upshot is that we American's are screwing [no pun intended] ourselves.
Using "Common Sense" is being either to arrogant or to ignorant to ask people who know more about something than you.
As if the US is much different? Have you seen the debt figures recently? (Closing on $8,000,000,000,000, more than $25,000 per citizen.)
The average American has better than $8000 in credit card debt alone. I don't think that there should be a required company pension, but I don't trust the average American to actually save enough money for next week, much less post retirement. I'd rather not go back to the day when everyone worked until the day the died either though.
Be glad life is unfair, otherwise we'd deserve all this.