Getting A Handle On Vista

visination.com wrote to mention a news.com article which runs down some of the basics on MS's new Operating System. From the article: "Among the key features of Vista as it currently stands are: security enhancements, a new searching mechanism, lots of new laptop features, parental controls and better home networking. There will also be visual changes, thanks to Avalon, ranging from shiny translucent windows to icons that are tiny representations of a document itself. On the business side, Microsoft said Vista will be easier for businesses to deploy on multiple PCs and will also save costs by reducing the number of times computers will have to be rebooted."

Comments

Darn!

[Average_Joe_Sixpack]

"... Microsoft said Vista will be easier for businesses to deploy on multiple PCs and will also save costs by reducing the number of times computers will have to be rebooted."

Reboot = Coffee Break

Re:Darn!

[Ignominious Cow Herd]

All they really had to do was add a disclaimer to the standard installer message telling you to reboot:

"Disclaimer: You don't REALLY have to reboot, but we're too lame to tell all the developers to stop putting up this dialog box after their installation script is done. You really haven't HAD to reboot after installing things for years. It's just the damn Developers, Developers, Developers who can't get with the program. Oh, and you're too dumb to figure this out for yourselves."

Re:Darn!

[Anonymous Coward]

Warning: assignment in conditional statement

Re:Darn!

[Aeiri]

if(reboot = true) potty_break();

So, you are always on a potty break?

(Note: this is NOT a jab at Windows, reread his syntax, if you are a programmer, you should be able to notice the syntax error)

Re:Darn!

[Trepalium]

That's not really true. The problem is that the installer can not replace any files that are in use by any open program. The windows file systems (FAT/NTFS) prohibit removing a file that's in use (although with NTFS, you can rename the file while it's in-use). The only sure-fire way to make sure the file is not in use is to reboot. There's no danger of a BSOD or any other severe system crash, though.

It's the brain-damaged file system's fault. Contrast this to Linux/UNIX file systems which can typically unlink a file (delete) without freeing the associated inode until the file is actually unloaded by all users of the file. The upside is that the upgrade can take effect without a reboot, the downside is that you may not be fully upgraded unless you restart all applications that use that file you're upgrading. When you upgrade apache, making sure all relavent services are restarted is easy. When you upgrade glibc, it's far from easy.

And the real kicker out of all of this is that Microsoft is unlikely to ever change this. I would prefer a system that worked more like Linux in this regard, but unfortunately many programs on Windows require this annoying file locking scheme to exist exactly as it does right now. If Microsoft changes this, it will break some software, and people will blame Microsoft for the breakage. Even people within Microsoft understand the problems this exectuable locking causes, which is why .NET programs for IIS use this strange shadow copy (different from W2K3's shadow copy feature!) method to allow you to update your website, despite the fact the executables in the target directory should be in use.

Re:Darn!

[strider44]

Microsoft Office 2003 actually requires a reboot. It simply doesn't work otherwise. I was flabberghasted when I saw the error message and it took literally five minutes to figure out that it didn't work because I was working on something while installing and pressed "no" for "would you like to reboot?". Same with installing most sorts of drivers. Not to mention the seeming need to reboot every single time Windows XP updates... The damn thing keeps bugging me as well.

So in other words...

[SamMichaels]

Longhorn went from something that is safe, secure and stable with lots of new features into a bunch of marketing fluff.

Windows Millennium anybody?

If done well...

[Darth Liberus]

this alone will be worth the upgrade: Rather than having to remember the single folder where something is stored, users will be able to put documents in any number of virtual folders. They can also establish folders that will automatically update, such as "files edited in the last week" or "documents from Jane." I've always hated the way files are stored on a computer... I understand it, of course, but I hate it. The whole point of a computer is to do the work FOR me, you know?

Re:If done well...

[wazzzup]

Done.

O'Reilly Developer Weblogs
OS X Finder
OS X Mail
iTunes

And it's instantaneous. No indexing when your computer has some idle time to spare. You create the file and BAM!, it shows up in Spotlight (system wide search engine vis-a-vis Google Desktop) and any Smart Folder that its criteria has met.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it.

[BrianKHud]

I think anyone who has used a win95 or win98 box would say that things have gotten *MUCH* better in terms of reboots. The kluged driver model and TCP/IP stack that used to exist forced people to restart their computer to change their IP address and there were no permissions whatsoever (just a fancy-dan do nothing password box which you could get out of by pressing escape).

Will my PC run Vista?

[Garabito]

Microsoft Allchin said in an April interview that he expects Vista will need about 512MB of memory and "today's level" of processor.

That reminds me when they said Windows '95 would run on a 386DX with 4 MB of RAM.

Re:Will my PC run Vista?

[bogie]

So 3.6GHz and minimum 512MB to make it useable. How much you want to bet that if you disable whatever shitty built-in desktop search program they include and set it to "Classic Windows Look" you'll be able to run it on a 1.0GHz cpu with 256MB.

You know, there are Microsoft supporters out there that constantly get pissed whenever we point out how bloated, slow, and buggy Windows is. Do they unlike us not expect more from a company that literally has billions and billions to sink into their OS? With that much money at their disposal Longhorn, I mean Vista-(insert-joke-here), should be doing my laundry by now. Speed, security, and ease of use shouldn't even be on the radar screen. Those problems should have been solved years ago.

Microsoft, clumsily wasting your computer's resources for over 20 years.

Re:i am hoping, but will it happen

[Meshach]

The security is my one hope for Longhorn. For it to gain acceptance of any kind it will have to excell in that area

However...

No IT departments or managment of any company are excited about Vista. The cost to install, test, coordinate, and train all your processes for a new OS are prohibative. This is one time wear the time honored saying: "If it ain't broke then don't fix it" applies.

If it wasn't for EOL and end of support I wonder if anyone would switch at all...

Perhaps not more than expected?

[Sv-Manowar]

Of course when touting a 'forthcoming' product, the pitch is going to be focused on the improvements its going to bring. Due to the length of time it's taking to get Vista out the door, the improvements and new features Microsoft are publicising now had better be impressive, otherwise they're going to be old news by the time the product actually ships. A new release of Windows is always going to be a 'big deal' to the computer-using masses sheerly because of its market penetration, but competitors like OS X have stolen the thunder on GPU-accelerated interfaces and improved filesystem metadata. At the end of the day, it wont be that these features are cutting edge, it'll be that they're available to the masses in something with high market penetration.

As for the new deployment features, I can't help but wonder how many organizations by the launch date will be considering deploying alternate operating systems instead, as Windows new foundations are compared directly with the latest and greatest Linux distrubutions have to offer...

Re:i am hoping, but will it happen

[electrichamster]

I hear that IE has spelling and grammar checking in forms now!

Fewer reboots...we've heard that before

[chevybowtie]

Windows 2000 was advertised before it's release as only having 7 events that would necessitate a reboot.

Re:Fewer reboots...we've heard that before

[Hungus]

it does only have seven events that necessitate a reboot:
1) Installing anything
2) Uninstalling anything
3) Being connected to a network
4) Not being connected to a network
5) Running an application
6) Not running an application
7) Starting up

Re:Bwahahahahah!!!

[multiplexo]

This isn't a problem with Windows, it's a problem with your AD servers and by extension with your AD administrators who have fucked up the domain so that users have to deal with shit like this.

I'm a UNIX guy who works in a largely Windows shop and I've been working with some really sharp Windows guys who know their stuff and know how to use the goodies that Microsoft is putting into the operating system and as a result I'm getting a new respect for a lot of MS stuff.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it.

[pcmanjon]

" ranging from shiny translucent windows to icons that are tiny representations of a document itself"

Sounds like this was directly ripped off of KDE. KDE will show the contents of a text file within the icon itself transposed on top of the "document" icon. This makes it look like your looking at a document with text from inside the file.

Chalk another one up for the Microsoft hall of innovation.

Re:MMMmmmmmm... Microsoft cheese!

[Jugalator]

You can only answer that question if you first answer why you switched to Windows XP SP2. Was it only to get some software you use to work? Are you having no special security concerns with the access modes in Windows XP? In that case, you're probably OK with XP and I can't see too much going on in Vista yet that'll interest you,

But if you're interested in a redesigned restricted user mode that allows for a much more "*nix-like" experience in that you'll grant only certain apps elevated rights, while by default working in more of a sandbox (i.e. what *nix users have had for years but Windows never really experienced too well due to incompatible apps etc), and in general staying more in control in what rights you give apps to run with, Vista should definitely interest you. Especially if you for some reason, like compatibility concerns, can't take the step to e.g. Linux.

I think any serious IT professional at a company should take a good look at Vista, at least if you intend to continue runing Windows. Of course, it could get child diseases so I'd still wait for a service pack or two, but you may actually do a mistake by just thinking "XP is good enough for us" and shrugging it off with a premature "Any reasons to use this? No?" like you do.

You know what I would really like to see?

[PocketPick]

A Windows OS that terminates an application when I tell it to do so. Why should I have to press 'End Process' 5 times and click on 2 dozen 'End Task' dialogs in order for the app to shutdown (if it even does). Is Windows second guessing me?

Only after the 27th time Windows XP does finally say 'You know... I think you might like me to close that process for you. Here you go peasant. No, you don't have to thank me! :)".

Re:You know what I would really like to see?

[spectecjr]

On OSX, I force quit something, and it's gone in a half second. On Linux, I kill -9 something, it's gone in the next screen refresh. On Windows, I ctrl-alt-delete, end process, wait, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, wait, click "yes, really kill it", repeat, wait, wait as progress bar fills in, repeat, and it's gone. Or not. Yeah, obviously this is NOT Windows' fault!

You're not doing an End Process. You're doing an End Task. End Task tries to shut down the app in an orderly fashion. End Process shuts it down immediately regardless. Go to the processes tab instead of the applications tab to kill the process.

Those are some steep system requirements.

[Captain Scurvy]

"Microsoft Allchin said in an April interview that he expects Vista will need about 512MB of memory and "today's level" of processor."

It is possible that they are overstating the RAM requirements, but holy cow, that seems like a whole crapload of memory to run... what, exactly? 128 MB is suggested for XP Pro, but I know that's more or less BS, because I run Pro, and tend to use ~300 MB on average, and I rarely have anything extra running besides Firefox, gaim, and AVG. So, does that mean they're actually understating the RAM requirements?

Anyway, just from reading the article, I am not inclined to spend the money on upgrading. As of now, none of the new features seem very impressive.

BSOD frequency vs. time

[Mr. Underbridge]

Or are you in the camp that still claims BSODs are as common now as they were in 98?

Nobody says that. BSOD in 98 was as common as the clap in a sorority.

That said, following the same analogy, I still wouldn't do XP without wrapping it up first.

Re:i am hoping, but will it happen

[Master of Transhuman]

/. Windows Shill Serial Number 127890...

You are required by /. policy to identify yourself as a Windows Shill by reporting the above number next to your /. ID.

Violators will be forced to watch reruns of Bill Gates interviews. (I know, it's not much of a punishment for guys like you, but it's the worst the /. administrators could come up with.)

Re:I'll believe it when I see it.

[ceejayoz]

IIRC MacOS8 or 9 had it, too... I seem to remember working with Photoshop on an old Quadra and having the image file icons be a preview.

Uh, it can work like that

[xswl0931]

But you've already indicated how such a system would work on Windows. The installer should rename the old binary and have it marked to delete on reboot and install the new binary. If an app gets restarted, it'll pick up the new lib. If the OS gets rebooted, all the old copies will automatically be deleted on reboot when nothing has an open handle to them.

Innovation?

[smallfries]

One complaint that get levelled at open-source software is that there is no innovation. That it's all just clones of commerical software. But seriously, the big innovations in Vista are 'less reboots', 'translucent windows' (= transparent windows perhaps?) and 'icons that are tiny representations of a document itself'. Sounds familiar...

Wow! Gnome has made it onto the windows desktop?