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Google Lawsuit Exposes Microsoft Offshoring Deal
2old2rockNroll writes "In more news from Microsoft's Google lawsuit, it appears that Ballmer's 2003 trip to China may have had as much to do with Microsoft moving jobs as selling software. It seems that the Chinese are not pleased with the number of jobs being moved to China, and one of Lee's duties was to identify jobs for export. Although hiring in Redmond has slowed, a Microsoft spokesperson admits they are "growing their work force" in China. Is it possible that Bill Gates' recent lament over the decline of US CS graduates and research spending was merely crocodile tears?"
... at a game between Go masters, and white just removed a bunch of black stones from the board
"He who throws mud, loses ground." - proverb
Why cant people just accept the fact that MS does these things for a logical business oriented reason. If you people have such a problem with their software why dont you get off your asses and go do something about it. Well this guys a hipocrit you say? Nay, Im moving to Washington next week to finish up my schooling at UW cause I know MS hires directly out of the UW Seattle CS Department
To think is to engineer, to engineer is to become God
Microsoft can't keep buying the U.S. government off forever; eventually, someone is going to assume the U.S. presidency who will actually allow the department of justice to enforce antitrust law and hold it for long enough for a case against Microsoft to be litigated.
It would be good if before that happens, Microsoft could hedge their bets with a nation that can truly understand and respect them. China understands that capitalism should be used as a tool of oppression, not a tool to fight it, so they're the perfect escape from any other nation who might sit up once in awhile, remember that monopolies hurt markets, and try to meddle in the internal affairs of a company just because they're committing injustice or breaking the law or something. Rupert Murdoch is big on China for the exact same reason.
So this is the 2nd or 3rd time this lawsuit has produced interesting titbits about M$. This thing is going to be the gift that keeps on giving. Get the popcord and sit back and watch.
I somehow suspect that M$ will continue coming off as anti-human, anti-worker and just plain nasty.
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_
I offshored myself.
:-) And, no joking, I'm off to hear RMS speak here in a few minutes - I'm interested more in the reaction to him from the audience than what he has to say - not because I'm not interested in what he has to say, but because I've heard him say it before...
Until early this year, I worked for Sun in the UK. They decided, in their infinite lack-of-wisdom, to close my office and lay everyone off (and have been trying to hire some people back ever since realising what a stupid move that was), pretty much because they thought they could replace us with much cheaper employees in Bejing.
So I went and got myself a job in Hong Kong - like Bejing, only a lot more expensive, widely English-speaking, and bloody civilised
Paranoia isn't an infectious condition, it's a way of life
If you are the Borg(hence your goal is to assimilate) you would make the same move as well. Why bother with a couple hundred million peons in America when you can consume billions in an Asian country? Statisticly and logically it's the smart move. It's all exponential. This little uprise from the Chinese is just their last struggle. They too will be assimilated. Rest easy little lambs, we will all soon become Borg.
For Linux, transnational developement is carried out through co-operation with each hacker voluntarily contributing his/her skill.
For Microsoft, it is more of a legal requirement; if they have to sell their goods to China, they have to give employment to their citizens.
In the process, many developers who may have actually created that piece of software on which outsourced employees are working on, are kicked out of the company to make room for outsourced employees.
Your economy is in sad shape, and can't be sustained very long.
Microsoft is probably still an overall benefit, as it is likely bringing more money in than sending abroad.
Your balance of trade and deficit issues boggle the imagination- but MS is the least of your worries there.
Information: "I want to be anthropomorphized"
Bill, looks like Americans don't understand what you say. Please continue to move the jobs to China.
Chinese are the nost aggressive people. I come from mixed background but in school I observed that, half of the Chinese students completed their Research even before they met their Prof every week and rest assured their neighbors, Indians were up on their feet to compete with them.....
Cheers!
No, it's not news. What is news is this snippet from the blurbette: "it seems that the Chinese are not pleased with the number of jobs being moved to China...
WTF! Who the hell cares about how pleased they are? You do want native people in China, but you don't *move* jobs there, you create jobs there! Expanding into a market doesn't mean you fire people in your old markets. Sheesh!
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Not all of it, either. Mostly manual test, requiring little to no skill. For this kind of test, it sure would be a waste to pay someone in Redmond $60-70K/yr. Automated test, infrastructure, security, perf/stres, and all other critical test remains in Redmond so far.
What was said above was only about China, though. Indian insiders seem to push real hard to get not only testing, but also development and program management to India. However, since they aren't (yet) an overwhelmin majority here, only low-impact work items go to India, so that if folks in India fuck it up (and they often do), we could fix the situation without slipping the schedule much. Overall, I'd say "split" development leads to worse code quality, but it's still a lot better than if all of it was developed in India.
Slashdot speaks with three voices , everyone thinks it is one because each of the three different groups are always doing sarcastic imitations of the other groups .Everyone has forgotten which voice is which so are using the same voice .. .The only difference is that the employers are the consumers. .Sure it may help create a new market but it will be in the short term at least damaging to a main consumer base and the long term advantage is risky . Transfer wealth from your primary market and you could cause a domino effect , not to mention the PR perhaps persuading your consumers to go with the competitors . ,just open new ones to help create the new market
Job competition is the same as any other type of free market competition . Offering a service or goods for the best price and let the consumer choose
The only thing i can see as illogical about off shoring is that your normally kicking one of primary markets in the crotch
It would be better if they would instead of shutting down current bases of operation
The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
It's about the kindest, gentlest form of outsourcing I've ever seen. People are encouraged to move up the test food chain by either improving their coding or people management skills. Those who fail to do so, are given a three month window during which they can find a job within Microsoft (there are thousands of open positions, a lot of them in Test). I wish other companies would go to such great lengths to make things as painless as possible for regular employees.
I think Microsoft has had a very bad influence on CS job prospects (note: MCSE is not a CS job). However, the fact that they are now having to go to China is a case of being hoisted by their own petard; after they destroyed most of the interesting R&D jobs, they don't have a choice but to go to China. So, I think Gates's lamentations are sincere; he probably doesn't even understand what he has done to CS research in this country.
In any case, even without Microsoft's destructive influence, Chinese high-tech workers would still be competing with US high-tech workes. And the Chinese government is fully within its rights to demand that any company doing business with/in China move jobs there--the US government is doing the same thing.
Wish I could use the mod points I've got to give you a raise in there.
A lot of valid points coming to light.
The best team I've worked in, way back when was multidisciplinary. A PhD mathematician (who could take sections of the implementations I'd made and fine tune them to a level that left me boggling), myself (Real Time Systems Bsc), a couple of experience bods who'd worked their way up over time, and the boss who was an Elecronic Engineer (Msc).
I ended up doing the software engineering (as we didn't need formal spec) and systems architecture (along with a fair bit of coding afterwards), the mathematician took areas where the algorithms were inefficient, and optimised them away.. The experience coders did a good job of the coding..
And the boss knew exactly what management processes to use for engineering a project (from extensive experience).
A lot of the problems with software today are simply caused because people don't engineer them.
Commerce is trying to make a fast buck, and, in the bridge analogy, is saying "We can put up a couple of ropes and tie them to a tree. What do you need a proper footbridge over the road for?".
So, a lot of software is built like the ropes over the road. It's cheap, shoddy, but does the job, with the odd few bits falling off and causing no end of consternation.
I'm behind you all the way on saying that a mathematician or an engineer (my first degree was in Chemical Engineering by the way) can apply the same processes as a CS grad, and will (in the longer term, which is where you should always be aiming anyway) be just as good.
I was pointing out that the properly educated CS grad will from the word go have a better instinctive grasp of what to do as concerns the tools and methods of engineering as applied to software.
First choice for me on software hires is Computer related degree plus good experience and track record. Very closely followed by Engineering/Math/Philosophy/Science degrees with the same level of experience and track record.
Then comes long track record and extensive experience with no degree, followed by Computing related degree with no/little experience, then the science/engineering degrees with little or no experience.
For someone with a small track record, and no degree, I'd not really go for that. They may be good. They may be highly skilled.
But if they're up against someone who's proved they have a high ability to learn, and has a good knowledge of a wide spectrum of theories in the field that they can bring to bear, they're just not going to get the job.
For much the same reason, I suspect, that you may find someone who knows how to build a bridge really really well.. You're just not going to hire him unless he's done that degree..
Really, I think it all boils down to me wanting to see that degree to prove someone's serious. I just have a slight preference for CS over the other disciplines (having done both, and seeing how my perspectives were altered slightly by doing the computing degree).
Last Wednesday I see this:
China Daily covers an anti-Linux FUD campaign being run by the China Software Industry Association. "Sun Yufang, a Chinese scholar who has long been researching Linux software, says most Linux developers cannot make a living under the current business model. Most of these developers 'either have died or have focused on other businesses in past years,' Sun says."
And then today:
Google Lawsuit Exposes Microsoft Offshoring Deal.
I wonder if these two events are in any way related?
Hmmmmmm..... Deep fried and look like Squirrel.