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What is Responsible Disclosure for Security Flaws?

Silverdot writes "In an article on ZDNet, the author brought up a few cases of uneasy relationships between security researchers and software firms. While those who report the bugs should first seek to notify and work with the software firm to resolve the flaw, One researcher commented: "All researchers should follow responsible disclosure guidelines, but if a vendor like Microsoft takes six months to a year to fix a flaw, a researcher has every right to release the details." Should the onus be on the software firm to manage each issue and the relationship well, or does it fall to the morally responsible user?"

55 of 235 comments (clear)

  1. The cost of secrecy by denissmith · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The cost of secrecy is high. Reasonable response times ( up to, say, 3 months) before disclosure should be allowed - even for firms that seem to be sitting on their hands, and if the firm is close to a patch and they are willing to communicate and work with the researcher a longer time may be reasonable. Overall, disclosure of a problem is always in the USERS best interest, and secrecy is always in the SOFTWARE FIRMS best interest. The longer a known security issue exists, in secret, the more likely it is that someone else has found it - and that puts everyone at risk. The rights of users ( who are victims of the software firms bad code) should always come before the rights of the software firm. Always. So this means disclosure should be seen as a blessing. Those who complain about irresponsible researchers putting everyone at risk are wrong - everyone is already AT RISK. Failure to let me know what risks I face should be seen as the problem. I need to know.

    --
    I have nothing to hide. So, why are you spying on me?
    1. Re:The cost of secrecy by Kirth · · Score: 2

      I consider 1 week (5 workdays) a reasonable response time. If some company might want to get a little bit more time, say to their next "patch thuesday", then well, fine, but certainly not more.

      --
      "The more prohibitions there are, The poorer the people will be" -- Lao Tse
    2. Re:The cost of secrecy by badriram · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How is it in the users best interest to disclose it when 99% of users are not capable of defending themselves. Do you really think that most non-techie people are going to read security lists to find out that there is a hole in a web browser. Then read/figure out alternative ways to mitigate that risk, by disabling some feature in their OS or application.

      The ONLY people that have an advantage or early disclosure is Security folks, Sys Admins, and other IT people that care.

    3. Re:The cost of secrecy by TommyBlack · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The ONLY people that have an advantage or early disclosure is Security folks, Sys Admins, and other IT people that care.

      And hackers, writers of viruses, and other such people. If the information is now public but the populace doesn't know/care, it's that much easier to exploit the security problem.

      --
      Why do my serious comments get modded "funny"?
    4. Re:The cost of secrecy by denissmith · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Regular users MAY be slow to move, but if businesses take action one of the main targets of an exploit vanishes and the incentive to write an actual exploit goes down.

      --
      I have nothing to hide. So, why are you spying on me?
    5. Re:The cost of secrecy by EvanED · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Overall, disclosure of a problem is always in the USERS best interest

      I disagree to an extent. There are a couple reasons.

      First, spreading a virus or other malicious code would probably be easier than patching the problem, at least most of the time. This means that exploits for a vulnerability would be be out before fixes for them.

      I'd prefer the uncertainty that hackers may or may not have found a vulnerability above the certainty that they can find it, even at the cost of being unaware of the vulnerability itself.

      Second, what am I supposed to do if I do know about the vulnerability? Change software? Even for a home user this is a substantial undertaking, and sometimes impossible. (For instance, even though I like Linux and dual-boot with Gentoo, I do most of by stuff in Windows because there are a couple things I *can't* in Linux.) In a corporate world, the situation is even worse.

      Again, in many cases, we're back to the same problem: I have to run software with a vulnerability (i.e. even if I know about it I can't do anything), do I want that vulnerability known by a lot of people or as few as possible?

      Finally, what am I supposed to do even if I COULD change any software at will? Follow all the websites where security stuff would be posted to see if something was broken? Yeah right, many people don't even install patches. I don't have time to pay attention to security sites. Even if I did, I might not have the knowledge to evaluate how bad of a threat something was.

      Now, I do think there comes a point where if the company is sitting on its hands and doing nothing that something has to be done and the vulnerability should be released to the world in an attempt to force it to take action, but as long as the company is making a good attempt I think that it should remain as secret as practical. (I also think that vulnerabilities should be released a couple weeks, maybe a month, after the patches are, both to give the public information about the general security of that company's products and so that developers can learn from the mistakes of others.)

    6. Re:The cost of secrecy by drgonzo59 · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I disagree. I think they should disclose it as soon as possible.

      First of all they should stop calling the mistakes"bugs". There are not "bugs" there, these are mistakes. If work for Ford and I am responsible for the carburators, I screw up and the QA never catches it and then people's cars are blowing up, it would not be called a "bug" as if something just crawled in there without anybody's fault, it would be _my_ mistake, a personal responsability.

      The software companies are churning code to get it out of the door without adequate testing, it is their fault. If someone exploits it, it both software makers fault and the exploiter's. The company should restitute the costs associated with the loss. Hopefully, that would promote a culture of responsability, and software engineering would be taken more serously, just like mechanical, electrical or nuclear engineering is.

      Chances are that if there is immediate disclosure, the users will have a chance to stop using the product until a patch is available. Every day until the patch is issued they should just bill the software company. That would be a great incentive to test well, code carefully and fix the problems faster.

    7. Re:The cost of secrecy by Grayputer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It is in the best interests of the user community in several ways. First, it puts pressure on teh software company to patch quickly. Second, it allows users to compare patch histories (quantity and response time) in choosing a product/company. Lastly, the bad guys have a communications system just like the good guys, eventually it WILL be common knowledge on the 'dark side', it needs to be common knowledge on the 'light side' as well.

      The issue is 'what is a reasonable timeframe'. Someone said 3 months, someone else said 1 week, and someone said it can take a year. As we all know, 'reasonable' is a subjective term.

      I think 1 week is not sufficient. I work in a small software company and I deal with large companies. A large company can't issue a memo in 1 week, it can't get from the department where you reported it to the department that needs to fix it in a week (notify development, support, QA, and 'shipping/distribution' managers and get an impact statement).

      As to the one year to fix it estimate, that seems very unreasonable, especially at Internet time speeds. The 'dark side' will be well versed in the bug well before that time has passed.

      Is it 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, or 9 months? It probably depends on where the bug is located. We develop a small niche market piece of middleware. A 'full QA' run (specifically test new function, regression test all other functions) can take a couple weeks even using automated test suites (runs on 10+ platforms, several hundred tests per platform, some testing is single threaded due to 'expensive hardware' resource issues, some test have to be manual). Packaging issues across 10 platforms with doco can add a couple more weeks. All assuming we know the exact coding bug and do not have to analyse the reported problem.

      So if a specific coding bug is reported in a core secton of the product, it can take a couple weeks of QA, plus Dev time, plus packaging, plus documentation, plus ... So a core change that impacts packaging and doco can easily be a month or more. On the other hand, a 'typo' that does not impact packaging (impossible, we have to release it somehow so some 'packaging' is needed) or doco can be a few days.

      Consequently, I'd guess 1 month is too short as well. I'd posit that a couple of months (3?) from the time the coding level fix it identified is probably a reasonable startng point. Given some reports I've received it can take from minutes to a lifetime to narrow the reported issue to a coding level fix.

    8. Re:The cost of secrecy by garcia · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Chances are that if there is immediate disclosure, the users will have a chance to stop using the product until a patch is available. Every day until the patch is issued they should just bill the software company. That would be a great incentive to test well, code carefully and fix the problems faster.

      Chances are that a) no one will stop using the unpatched software because they can't afford to or they don't care to be informed of it (how many places were pwnt by worms that had known patches months in advance?)

      b) No one will indemnify their code because it wouldn't be cost effective to do so and it wouldn't stop the issue.

      It would be a *great* incentive but the cost of software would go up and either people would buy software that was less money (not as well coded) and put the others out of business or they would just continue on the old path.

      Wishful thinking but it isn't going to happen.

    9. Re:The cost of secrecy by Transcendent · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Your analogy, even way of thinking is flawed. This isn't about someone's car not working, it's about someone being able to break in or destroy someone's car.

      Say the keypad entry for all GM's had a flaw where if you pressed a certain sequence of keys, you can get into any GM vehicle that has keyless entry.

      You go to GM and tell them they need a recall. They tell you they need to get with their suppliers, have them redo their software or hardware logic (after months of the engineers pointing the finger), or else you "go public" in which everyone's GM car is no vulnerable to break-ins.

      You "go public", yet it obviously won't be as effective as an actual recall since you cannot contact everyone who owns GM affected by this. The exploit grows in popularity in the darker parts of society, and GM cars around the country are now being broken into becuase you thought you were doing society a "favor".

      Yes, GM and/or their supplier is at fault, but who's morally at fault for the possible millions of dollars lost just because some guy was self righteous and wanted to tell the public? GM can't go around telling people not to drive their cars, or weld the door shut, or pull the wires from the keyless entry. That's not an acceptable senario to the end user.

      There is a moral obligation to protect others in society. That comes before letting everyone know how to break into each others cars. Your scare tactic you want to play on the corporation will only result in even more stressed engineers, longer design turnovers (hence, MS), and more costly products.

      If there was just a bad engine part that could break on the cars, then there is no harm. But, if that information can be used by 3rd parties to do harm onto others, then you have the moral obligation not to go letting everyone know.

    10. Re:The cost of secrecy by Donny+Smith · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > I consider 1 week (5 workdays) a reasonable response time.

      Response as in "confirming a bug report"?

      What do you base your "reasonable" upon?

      Are you aware that QA alone sometimes takes weeks?

      I would prefer to keep the system exposed (in a controlled environment) to installing an non-QA-ed hack on my production servers.

    11. Re:The cost of secrecy by BeanThere · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The exploit grows in popularity in the darker parts of society, and GM cars around the country are now being broken into becuase you thought you were doing society a "favor".

      But you ARE doing society a favour --- people will know next time that they should not buy GM cars because GM doesn't care enough to produce cars without such problems or to fix the problems in time! GM doesn't have a 'right' to retain its market share, and certainly not if it is culpably releasing and selling known defective cars. No matter how you twist it, you cannot get away from the fact that a customer ALWAYS has a right to know if they are purchasing or using a defective product.

      You are advocating a cover-up. The "moral obligation" we have to society is to make sure we don't do cover-ups when it is discovered products have defects. Trying to keep such flaws a secret is only going to serve to protect and reward companies that do shoddy QA. And the irony is, the thieves are going to find out about that flaw in the GM car sooner or later anyway, and when they do, it's going to be even worse because a lot more people would have bought GM cars because you thought it was a good idea to keep the problems secret.

      Sorry, but I have a right to know what I'm buying, what I'm about to buy, what I've bought and am using.

      If Windows has flaws that Microsoft has known about for months but doesn't care enough to fix, and my business has many confidential documents entrusted to the 'security' of Windows, then I damn well have a right to know about it so that I can to something else rather, like Linux.

  2. "Responsible Disclosure" is a lie by TripMaster+Monkey · · Score: 5, Insightful


    "Responsible disclosure" is a propganda term propogated by the software firms to a) get as much time as possible to fix security holes, and b) indemnify themselves as much as possible against any public disclosure of said security holes by labeling the disclosers as 'irresponsible'.

    If a security hole exists, it exists, despite how much public discussion about said hole is quashed. Today more than ever, there are unscrupulous people out there laboring to find and take advantage of these holes. Muzzling the virtuous hackers, who only wish to make things more secure, is counterproductive in the extreme. The only 'responsible disclosure' is full and immediate disclosure.

    --
    ____

    ~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey

    1. Re:"Responsible Disclosure" is a lie by garcia · · Score: 4, Insightful

      b) indemnify themselves as much as possible against any public disclosure of said security holes by labeling the disclosers as 'irresponsible'.

      And to prepare legal proceedings against those that do end up disclosing the holes against the wishes of the companies trying to patch them (here).

    2. Re:"Responsible Disclosure" is a lie by gr8_phk · · Score: 4, Insightful
      "The only 'responsible disclosure' is full and immediate disclosure."

      I'd argue that giving the software company a heads up to find a fix would be more responsible than immediate disclosure. There is no fixed amount of time either. If the company is unresponsive, wait as long as you feel appropriate and go public. If the company responds and appears to be making reasonable efforts to fix it, give them time. The public isn't going to fix the problem, so blabbing to them isn't going to help. Blabbing to them that the company has known for X months and isn't doing anything will help the public form an opinion about the company and move away from their products.

    3. Re:"Responsible Disclosure" is a lie by Wile_E_Peyote · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "Responsible disclosure" is a propganda term propogated by the software firms to a) get as much time as possible to fix security holes, and b) indemnify themselves as much as possible against any public disclosure of said security holes by labeling the disclosers as 'irresponsible'.

      I agree that a and b are true, but that doesn't mean there is no such thing as responsible disclosure.

      For example: it is irresponsible to release information about a security hole into the wild without informing the software manufacturer.

      It's not such a crazy idea to let manufacturers come up with a patch before releasing information (with a reasonable cut-off date).

      Releasing the information immediately into the wild means that a million or so script kiddies and minor league hackers are going to be trying to hit that specific security hole before companies even know what to do. Compare this to a small group (comparitavely) of "virtuous" and otherwise experienced hackers knowing about the bug.

      If I have a pot of gold hidden somewhere, the odds of it being found are directly affected by the number and type of people who know it exists...

  3. I did it! by Tachikoma · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'd be the first to tell people about my security flaws, hell i'd advertise them. I'm just going to make some half-ass excuse and blame someone else anyway. at least thats what all the k00l keds do dez d4yz.

    --
    i don't care
  4. The question should be... by Karma_fucker_sucker · · Score: 4, Interesting
    What's the reasonable response time to fix the problem?

    Someone tells you that you have a security hole; you fix it - A.S.A.P!!

    --
    Evil people don't think they're evil. - George Lucas, Making of Ep III
  5. easy: immediate disclosure with technical details by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you find a security hole in someone else's code you can either:

    1) use the DJB approach: reveal the hole in a public forum, preferably with a working exploit.

    2) use my preferred approach: fix your clients' copies of the program, and otherwise keep quiet. Consider it a competitive advantage when the next Apache/SSH/PHP worm hits.

    Any other approach is an utter waste of time, for everyone except the vendor.

    If you reveal the flaw only to the author, you are:

    a) Working for someone else without getting paid.

    b) Saying "it's okay" to write software with security holes, because shucks, some kind soul will fix it for you.

    c) Not telling the rest of us, the sysadmins of the world, how to protect our own systems. You see, the company or author has already demonstrated incompetence. Why help them? Of course you don't owe anybody anything (see point #a) but if you're going to tell anybody, tell the people with the most to lose!

    Of course, I'm assuming we're working with software where you have the source code. Secure software without source code is an oxymoron. And no, I don't think the license makes code more secure, since maybe 95% of the coders out there can't code properly. My ability to audit is what makes it more secure, and yes, I do as much of that as I can.

    Let me make the point clear: I don't care if the author fixes the code or not, or how quickly he can "patch". I need to know the details of the problem so I can solve it myself. That's what's important.

    People who advocate "irresponsible disclosure" (my term for any disclosure that doesn't inform the end-user first) are really secretly afraid that someone will someday find flaws in THEIR systems and embarrass them. But that's the point: embarrassment is a cost, and people will try to minimize costs any way they can. At some point they will actually try writing secure software. And maybe at some point, users will start demanding secure software.

    I think we can all agree that the security situation is getting worse, not better. Most of the software I see these days is garbage, to put it mildly. Bloated, complex, insecure.

    Constantly holding the hand of authors via irresponsible disclosure is not going to solve the problem. Do you want to wait until the government regulates software, basically punishing everybody for the sins of the incompetent? Or should we let market forces do their thing?

  6. Thorny Dilemma by gbulmash · · Score: 2, Interesting
    First off, it would be nice if software didn't have so many holes, but even the best open source ventures end up having to issue patches and revisions, so while Microsoft may have more holes than most, let's not act as if this is a "the world vs. Microsoft" issue.

    This is a very tough one because it is multi-faceted. The most common argument against researchers publishing is it practically guarantees an exploit will surface in the wild sooner rather than later, possibly before a patch is available. OTOH, if they don't publish, it might be discovered by criminals first and exploited more quietly, gaining a foothold in the wild before anyone even knows the hole is there. Sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.

    But when a vendor is sitting on the report and not issuing a patch, it can grow increasingly frustrating for the researcher. They not only have to watch people trundle along, blithely unaware of this gaping hole in their systems, but they cannot get their proper credit for the discovery. It's a bit like publishing for academics. Getting to take credit for the discovery of a security vulnerability has certain perks that the researchers are denied as they sit quietly and wait for some corporation to decide when to go public with the announcement of the hole and the patch for it.

    Probably the best solution would be to have a set of universal guidelines set at one of the major conferences. Something that takes fairness to the researcher, fairness to the software vendor, and fairness to the public into account. I know, I sound like a politician saying "let's form a committee to study this", but I doubt that any one person has a solution that makes everyone happy or could even be considered a fair compromise by all involved parties.

    - Greg

  7. Not necessarily by dereference · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The longer a known security issue exists, in secret, the more likely it is that someone else has found it - and that puts everyone at risk.

    I mostly agree with your overall analysis, but I'm compelled to point out that this one statement seems self-contradicting. What is the difference whether a security issue is "known...in secret" rather than simply "unknown"? I submit that a better way to say this would be that "the longer any security issue exists, the more likely it is that someone else has found it," without regard to how known or unknown it may be during the interim.

    The only way this is not true is if you consider the (perhaps non-trivial) cases where the "secret" is leaked, intentionally or otherwise.

    1. Re:Not necessarily by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What is the difference whether a security issue is "known...in secret" rather than simply "unknown"?

      The difference is whether you know about it. After all, these are the only issues you can disclose.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    2. Re:Not necessarily by pellis23 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Allow me to quote the venerable Donald Rumsfeld:
      Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know.

    3. Re:Not necessarily by timmarhy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      software companies say this won't happen, because they like to put forward this idea to the masses that programming is some mystic art that only THEY have the power to use. sorry bozo's, but it's just not the case. no one is so clever that no one else can duplicate their efforts. if one researcher found it then someone else can. i say contact them and give them a chance to fix it. if they jump on the problem and fix it asap, then do not disclose it right away. the researcher will obviously have a good idea of what time frame it should take to fix it. however, if they bullshit or even worse dismiss your findings, then scream the exploit from the the top of a very high mountain. companies like the later need to be named and shamed.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
  8. Tact by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The trick to proper security flaw reporting is understanding what is the tactful way to state it vs. tactless way.

    An example of a tactful way first report it to the software developers and see if there is a patch. If not then get a little more forceful and release to the public that there is a flaw in a feature on this product and it seems to effect this range of people.

    An example of a tactless method is to make a root kit that takes advantage of that flaw. Or tell the general public how to reproduce it.

    You will need to remember what you say publicly will be used by people who will do good things about it and bad things about with it. So if you give them enough information to say block a port or temporarily turn off a feature vs. giving giving the bad guy a way in while the person will need to figure out what you did in your root kit then find that is the problem.

    Be mindful when you report the flaw to the software company as well. You are telling them that they have an ugly baby and most people don't want to hear that. Try to be friendly with them but stern on the severity on the flaw. When it comes to reporting flaws you are no longer dealing with computers but with people and if you piss them off to much they will be less then helpful.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:Tact by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Sometimes, it isn't so easy. Lord knows I have found and reported my share of exploits. Of them, a few took a bit too long, but communicated with me a majority of the way. One of them, however, told me they knew about it, decided it was better to call me an asshole, and to pay them consulting fees if I wanted X security hole resolved.

      In the latter case, the only course of action (not due to spite mind you, though it felt good) was to release a usable exploit. The creator of said software had no intentions of ever fixing it. They had every intention of belittling anyone who brought such things to their attention. For me, the only way I would see this work, is if all of a sudden, the world was afraid to use software Y because a simple script kiddie could comprimise them.

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
  9. Plain and simple by It+doesn't+come+easy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Responsible disclosure from Microsoft's perspective: You tell us and only us. We'll tell the rest of the world when we think it's necessary (if ever).

    --
    The NSA: The only part of the US government that actually listens.
  10. Re:Wait as long as it takes by Knome_fan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And what about users that would be able to do something against the security risk (not use a certain program, disable a vulerable service or firewall it in for example), if they only would be aware of it?

  11. Common Sense by MattW · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Common Sense is sometimes violated egregiously by one side or another, and then this is raised as an issue. If a security researcher sends one email to some ill-checked "bugs@" address and gets no response, then just releases a couple weeks later, that's irresponsible.

    When someone emails a vendor many times at many addresses, finally gets a response where they tell him, "We're looking into it", and then proceeds to cease communicating for 45 days, that's irresponsible by the vendor, and the researcher has every right (and some would say, a responsibility) to publish.

    Where's the middle ground? Well, it's a wide open space. Those without bad ulterior motives (ie, publicity-hungry or vendor-hating researchers, or head-in-sand or deny-first-ask-questions-later vendors) don't really have much difficulty negotiating the middle ground, because there's a lot of room. The problem, of course, is that the only time you *hear* about disclosure issues is when someone is being a muttonhead - either vendors trying to keep secrets, or researchers who feel no sense of responsibility or make the most token efforts to make contact. For the rest, there's little debate, because it's just easy to do it right.

  12. why are the rules different? by the+arbiter · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I can't believe that this question:

    "should the onus be on the software firm to manage each issue and the relationship well, or does it fall to the morally responsible user?"

    is even being seriously asked. Of COURSE the onus is on the software compnay...they made the damn thing and are making the money from it, right?

    This could only be a question in the software world. Before making the jump to IT, I built acoustic guitars for years. If I BUILT it wrong, not only did I hear about it, and not only did a lot of my potential clients hear about it, but I HAD to fix it, and not next week, but ASAP.

    I'm honestly curious as to how the rules got changed for software.

    --
    Boycott everything - they're all trying to fuck you one way or another
    1. Re:why are the rules different? by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Insightful


      I'm honestly curious as to how the rules got changed for software.


      I suggest asking Bill Gates. He was the pioneer for the EULA and software company not being responsible for anything.

      I'm not trolling, Microsoft was the trail blazer in the legalease surrounding software today.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  13. immediate disclosure is based on false premises by 91degrees · · Score: 2

    I really love the Full public disclusure advocates. They seem to have a romantic view of the black hats. Rather than a selection of small groups, they seem to imagine a vast international consipracy.

    The justification seems to be that they might already know of the vulnerability. A weak argument if ever there was one. Just because some black hats know of it doesn't mean all of them do. And there's no evidence that any of them know of the vulnerability before the flaw is revealed.

    We change from a possibility that some blackhats know of a flaw to a certainty that all blackhats know of the flaw.

    And if there's evidence to counter their claims, the full disclosure advcates will come up with the most ludicrous scenarios.

    Recently there was evidence that they did not, after a virus was released that exploited a recently reveled vulnerability. I pointed this out. The explanation was that the blackhats already knew of it but were being cagey. Since it was now public, they had to exploit it as much as possible before it's patched. Of course - occams razor would suggest simply that none of them already knew about it.

    1. Re:immediate disclosure is based on false premises by grasshoppa · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The justification seems to be that they might already know of the vulnerability. A weak argument if ever there was one. Just because some black hats know of it doesn't mean all of them do.

      Good point. From now on, I'm only going to allow those blackhats that don't know of the vulnerability to access my services.

      And there's no evidence that any of them know of the vulnerability before the flaw is revealed.

      You have a narrow view of reality. How can you know that no one knows of something before it's officially revealed?

      The risk that they might know of it is what drives it.

      While I'm on the fence as to which I support ( full disclosure or informed disclosure ), your arguments are flawed, and I had to point that out.

      --
      Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
  14. Rain Forest Puppy RFPolicy document by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This makes an interesting read

    http://wiretrip.net/rfp/policy.html

    Well thought document, written with input from big names in the computer security scene.

  15. I don't know about you... by jnadke · · Score: 3, Funny

    But when my holes are open I close them quick before someone shoves something in there... like a Trojan.

  16. Responsible to whom? by miffo.swe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Responsible disclosure has no real benefit to the end user. It may stop some percentage of big outbreaks of worms but it doesnt in any way make life for admins guarding sensetive information a bit easier. From what i have understood many exploits are used by crackers long before they are in the wild. That is, many networks and servers are broken into and gathered for intel long before there is a patch, sometimes even for years.

    Responsible disclosure only lenghten the period for the crackers in wich they can use their exploits for real cracking. It gives at best a breather for software manufacturers to drag their ass. It also doesnt promote real testing and auditing of software before its shipped. I would as an end user much prefer more tested software, that includes OSS thank you very much. Current release cycles is way to short to give any time for testing.

    --
    HTTP/1.1 400
  17. Lets Talk About What It's Not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    (Posting anonymously for career protection.)

    The problem has been posited as researchers v. software companies. The problem is, there are some researchers who work for software companies, some very dirty software companies, and their management would very much like to take market share from their competitors.

    Someone else gets hurt? That's Cisco's problem.

    -----------

            WN: So ISS knew the seriousness of the bug.

            Lynn: Yes, they did. In fact, at one point ... they apparently didn't get it, and they actually wanted to distribute the full working exploit very widely inside the company.... I was told ... "Give this to all the sales engineers and to all the pen testers."

            WN: Why would they want you to do that?

            Lynn: Well, because it bruises Cisco, remember? Mind you, this was something that Cisco hadn't gone public with yet and that's not useful to pen testers because what do they advise their customers to do (to protect themselves if no information about the vulnerability has been released yet)?

            I told them, "You do realize if you do that, it's going to leak?" And (one of the ISS guys) says, "That's Cisco's problem." And then (another ISS guy) turns to me and says that they need to understand this could be their Witty worm. I was like, Whoa, what meeting did I walk into?

            (The Witty worm was a particularly aggressive and destructive code released by someone last year that targeted computer systems running a security program made by Internet Security Systems and even more specifically targeted military bases using the software. It infected more than 12,000 servers and computer systems in about an hour. Because of the worm's speed in spreading and its creators' apparent knowledge of who ISS' customers were, some security experts speculated that someone working for or connected to ISS might have been responsible for writing and releasing it.)

            At that point, I told them all no, and they fought it and I resigned right there on the spot. And this was about a month ago.

            I thought they were handling this in a non-ethical manner. Because it was just way too fast and loose with who can see this.... I mean, I don't even want people to see it now. (ISS talked him out of the resignation by agreeing to give him control over who could see or have the exploit.)

    ---------

  18. bull by badriram · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If "Responsible disclosure" is only a propaganda term, why would Mozilla and other popular open source projects use them. Why do they block access to security issues.

    If a hole exists, it exists, however not everyone (including hackers) knows about it until it is published. Holes exist nowadays for years, some flaws for instance in NT 4.0 are discovered now 10 years later. Software is waay to complex nowadays it is good bet to take that unless published most holes will go completely unnoticed, until some other security firm after 100s of hours of research will find it.

  19. Been there, done that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Oddly enough, I used to work on a project for a huge company where this happened. We had a large search-engine like project that was running much slower on a 16 proc Sun box than I thought it should. I noticed that 40% of our traffic came from the same 5 subdomains, representing over 10 - 20,000 hits/hour. "Who uses a search engine that much?" I asked.

    Me: Something fishy is going on here.
    Boss: Report your findings to the project team.
    Project Team: Hmmm... that is fishy

    [weeks go by]

    Me: Something fishy is STILL going on here.
    Boss: Report your findings to the project team.
    Project Team: We don't have a disclaimer on our site that restricts the number of hits/hour. Contact legal.
    Legal: We'll get back to you.

    [weeks go by]

    Me: Something fishy is STILL going on here, and it's getting worse!
    Boss: Report your findings to the project team.
    Project Team: Did legal get back to you?
    Legal: We'll get back to you.

    [weeks go by]

    Me: Something fishy is STILL going on here, can I at least block them via hosts.allow or a firewall?
    Boss: Report your findings to the project team.
    Project Team: Hmmm... I don't know. Did legal get back to you?
    Legal: We'll get back to you.

    [weeks go by]

    Slashdot: "Your search engine is a known hack to alter page rankings at Google!"
    Slashdot Commenters: OH yeah, that's been a problem for a while. That damn company!
    Me: YIKES!! SLASHDOT has posted our company name in connection with fraud. AGAIN!
    Boss: FUCK! DO SOMETHING! This is a PR nightmare!
    Project Team: FUCK! DO SOMETHING! This is a PR nightmare!
    Me: Luckily, I have already written a script to do so. Give me a sec--
    Legal: We have shut down all admin access to this box, because there was this article on Slashdot, and we need to see if it's been hacked. We've opened a ticket.
    Me: GAAAAAHHH!!!

  20. blame shifting by cahiha · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The two groups who are responsible for security problems are software vendors and companies that buy buggy software and use them for critical data. Those are the primary parties at fault when security problems cause loss of money or life. Unfortunately, both of those groups are increasingly successful at trying to blame other people and creating legal obligations for other people.

    What we really need is a market driven solution. If MegaBank discloses 200000 customer records to criminals due to a security bug in their Loses XP operating system, then they should be responsible for all the identity theft-related expenses that that causes their customers, plus statutory damages (say, $1000/customer) for distress and inconvenience for their customers. If they do that sort of thing too often, they'll go out of business. That kind of financial risk will force them to demand guarantees from the creator of the Loses XP operating system, which will force that company to finally get a handle on security or go out of business themselves and be replaced by companies that understand security. And if it turns out that it simply isn't possible to do something securely with software, well then only the non-computerized companies will survive in the market.

    So, what's the "responsible" way of disclosing security bugs? Any way you feel like it, as far as I'm concerned. The security problem in someone else's software is not your responsibility in any way, shape, or form.

  21. It takes time ... by newandyh-r · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Let us suppose the researcher (R) reports a security hole to the software producer (let's call them M).
    First the report on the problem has to get to someone who has the knowledge to investigate and fix the problem. In a large organisation this is likely to take several days. It then has to be prioritised in his workload (Hey! you think there is only one problem?).
    Next he has to verify that the problem exists (hopefully R has provided a repeatable example).
    Then comes the first difficult part - identifying the root cause of the problem. If it is a buffer overflow this might be easy; a tricky combination of factors in a single module may be more difficult; an underlying design feature or a clash with an important usability function is going to cause major difficulties.
    In the simple cases an initial fix may be possible (and right first fix) within hours - but will then have to be tested against the whole test suite and documented. We are, by now, probably already a week after first report for anything beyond a "damaging exploit in the wild" event.
    For the complex, but limited in scope, hole much more is going to need to be done. Several people need to understand the problem and possibly redesign the module. The replacement code will take longer to get right and to test. It probably also needs to be done by the more experienced members of the team ... who also have more items in their priority lists. In a case like this the timescale is probably approaching a month for a "fairly high priority" problem.
    Now think about the clash of design principles type of problem - in practice this is probably going to need a fairly ugly hack by very skilled programmers (A major redesign is rarely viable for widely distributed commercial software). How long do you think this is going to take?

  22. Solution to the problem by Geak · · Score: 3, Funny

    Step 1) Find bug.
    Step 2) Write exploit
    Step 3) Write fix
    Step 4) Let vendor know about security flaw and show them the exploit. Tell vendor you want X amount of dollars for the fix within Y days or you will release said exploit publicly.
    Step 5) If vendor doesn't put up the dough or produce a publicly available patch within Y days, patent said fix and disclose exploit to the public.

  23. Re:Best Security: 1st Amendment by TFGeditor · · Score: 3, Insightful

    " The best security is to inform all users once a flaw is discovered."

    No, it isn't.

    The best security is for software vendors, security firms, and AV software providers to share information and work cooperatively to get AV updates to end users (average Joe Sixpack) while the OEM vendor works on a patch--and keep it out of the "public" eye.

    Your internet-connected mom/gandmother/uncle/aunt would never know they were vulnerable anyway, even if the story was on the front page of every newspaper. Unless their machine is set up to automatically check for and install AV and security upgrades, the machine is proably already compromised. If it is so set up, they are covered.

    Meanwhile, the script kiddies (as opposed to true criminal hackers) will never be the wiser until the AV updates and patches have already been out for quite a while, and therefore most if not all responsible users are protected.

    --
    Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever.
  24. MSFT the Whipping Boy Again ... by hagrin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ..., but if a vendor like Microsoft takes six months to a year to fix a flaw ...

    Now, I'm not the Microsoft apologist of Slashdot, but I mean can we at least throw the names around of some other extremely bad abusers of this "sit on exploits/bugs and fix when we feel like it" policy?

    Oracle and Cisco should also be admonished for their response time to fix exploits/bugs disclosed to them as well. Cisco and their Black Hat convention fiasco proves that MSFT isn't alone and really shouldn't be singled out (I don't want to debate the Lynn bug as being new or not).

    Also, let's not forget that Zotob was patched before it was released in the wild, but users and admins failed to apply these patches in time even after SANS had raised the alert level to yellow the day before (and I don't want to argue about "we can't just blindly patch our machines", etc.)

    Definitely, Linux, mySQL, Apache, the PHP CMS and forums community seem to be highly responsive to security threats and definitely, MSFT makes some very buggy, insecure software, but some impartiality would be nice every now and then.

  25. It is all about priorities by Matt_Bennett · · Score: 2, Interesting

    At the very least, I believe in full disclosure to the company that writes the software- but public disclosure opens up too many risks- yes, someone else may find it, but I really don't think that Microsoft purposely leaves out fixes- they have lots of fixes to put in, and they have to prioritize them. Yes, if it is public, it gets higher priority, but they have finite resources to investigate the fix, find it, fix it, and then test to make sure that they don't break anything else.

    I think that what the open source community fails to realize is the huge amount of effort that goes into testing. I used to work for one of the big computer manufacturers- (rhymes with Hell), and the software that is released on a system (my experience is with servers) is usually frozen months in advance so that the different phases of test can pound on it, not just so that they can find errors, but so that they can characterize those errors. The fix for a critical error may be done in a day, but the testing may take weeks- to test with different hardware, system software, amount of RAM, HD, different processors... the list is long- but ultimately what they are trying to make sure is that a fix for one thing doesn't cause something else to break in a worse way. This is particularly important when you are maintaining code someone else wrote- you may not fully realize why it was done that way... until it is too late.

    Unfortunately, the IP issues often force companies not to reveal what they are doing. Every single person I worked with was extremely conscientious about their work, they take flaws very seriously, but remember, their priorities are not the same as yours, and if you could see the scope of what they are working on, you might be able to better understand why their priorities are where they are. On the other hand, they don't know you from Adam, and you might just be one of those black hats- so they can't reveal the HUGE GAPING HOLE they just found, to show you that they really do care about the tiny (but significant) hole you found.

  26. Re:Best Security: 1st Amendment by Cat_Byte · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The answer is massive class-action lawsuit. Consider the following scenario. A manager at Microsoft badgers his employees in order to hustle an Internet software program out the door. The product is now flawed and open to attack by worms and viruses.

    Now picture the one at fault to be Joe Blow working from his basement during his "free time" outside of the 65 hour work week at his real job. Class action lawsuits like this would kill open source completely.

    Now, here's where the improved security occurs. The customers who bought the flawed product initiate a class-action lawsuit against Microsoft and win $10 billion from the company. Microsoft then fires the manager who forced his employees to hustle a product to completion. The manager of that manager is also fired.

    Or Joe Blow is now in prison, is fined an amount he can never pay, his credit, business, and everything is ruined. End users who could have received a patch if it wasn't for that "damned lawsuit happy group being so pushy on time limits" are left with an end-of-life broken product. Don't be so hastey to criminalize the innocent. Too many laws and lawsuits these days do just that.

    Just another perspective....

    --
    Two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I took the one the bus load of girls just went down.
  27. Openswan project directly affected by jehreg · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The Openswan project is directly affected by this this month. We were contacted by an agency and asked to sign a non-disclosure agreement, following which they would tell us of a possible vulnerability in our code. This non-disclosure would prevent us to release details of the vulnerability until such time as the rest of the "group" would be ready for it to be announced.

    In the case of an Open Source product, we cannot even do a "stealth" fix; we have to describe what each patch does when we commit it to CVS. That would make the vulnerability public and would be a no-no to this agency.

    In essence, the agency could decide which bug we could fix and which ones we could not.

    I see this as the equivalent to blackmail: Sign our non-disclosure and we will give you a possible vulnerability; don't sign it and you will look bad when the vulnerability is made public.

    I am a CISSP, and quite willing to hold on the patch until others can fix their code if the allowed time is reasonable, but the non-disclosure is broad and has no time limitations... So what the heck should we do ?

    1. Re:Openswan project directly affected by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Refuse to sign the NDA. Then make a public announcement: "$AGENCY has notified us that a possible vulnerability exists, however they won't tell us what the vulnerability is unless we sign an NDA. Comitting a patch to fix the problem to CVS or releasing fixed code before they allow it would violate the NDA, and we aren't willing to agree to deliberately not fix a security bug.". Let the resulting PR headache be $AGENCY's headache.

  28. That's because you're a defective person. by bmajik · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I use OpenBSD too, so don't start with me.

    How can you be happy when someone else is suffering? It's not your grandmothers fault she uses windows. OpenBSD is NOT appropriate for "home users", and it's not designed to be, and it cannot ever be as secure as it is yet as functional as required for non-power-users.

    Every operating system in use on PC's has security issues, even openBSD. OpenBSD is where it is because it's entire focus is security/correctness.

    Security and correctness are NOT the most important aspect of general software development - if they were the only requirements, then a lead box buried in the ground would easily be more secure than openBSD. The issue is functionality vs security and correctness.

    When there is something that works as well as windows for what people that use windows need to do, but has fewer problems, people will change to it in droves. For some people, that is Mac OS - although it has its own severe security problems - do you laugh when people with macs have to reboot their machines because of SoftwareUpdates ?

    In any case - 0 day full disclosure hurts the majority of computer users. No amount of pain will convince them to stop using windows. If you want people to stop using windows, develop a credible alternative. Don't sit and laugh at people that don't have better choices available to them, and then say things like "i support people making life harder for windows users".

    --
    My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
  29. Timely disclosure is a must by mmmbeer · · Score: 5, Informative

    I have actually been in the middle of this before, having found a way to passively grab billing information from a larger online subscription-based game. A colleague and I built a complete technical description of the issues, theoretical "worst case" possibilities, as well as a working proof-of-concept exploit, making it clear that we would wait for a suitable fix to be in place before we would release details. We got an email back within several hours from one of the lead programmers who wanted to do a conference call but when we agreed, we never heard from him again.

    We were then contacted by a manager-type that this 2-year-old hole was already being fixed. We offered our expertise to review their solution but they weren't interested. Instead, 2 special agents from the FBI showed up at my work to interrogate my involvement in felony extortion.

    After a 4 hour long interview session (during which I was escorted to the restroom and watercooler by an armed agent) and I provided all correspondance and source code, they left and never came back. The best part the WTF? look I got when I described how this company was transmitting credit card information XORed with a cleartext seed transmitted in the previous packet. Second place had to be the "Why are we wasting our time here?" look I got when I explained the only credit card information I have actually seen was my own.

    The hole was silently fixed in a patch distributed weeks later, and replaced with another algorithm which was also easily exploited. Again, we went through the entire process of creating documentation and a working exploit and sending it to the company. This hole was patched months later.

    The company's response was always hostile at best, which I found odd considering we were trying to help them protect their customers. They never disclosed (publicly or to the credit corporations providing merchant accounts) that there was any issue.

    American Express has an extremely specific policy on security, and have a minumum requirements policy which all online merchants are supposed to adhere to. They also require you to notify them if security has been compromised. California law also states that card holders must be notified if their account information may have been compromised. Apparently it's not a big deal if noone abides by these rules.

    When the company is unresponsive in resolving security flaws, I feel that disclosure is imperative to allow users to take their own precautions to protect themselves. I'm not malicious, but I imagine that there are a lot of people smarter than I am that are.

  30. Take this to the extremes by Quicksilver · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Say a new DMCA law is enacted that makes it illegal to disclose security flaws. Consider that companies can now fire all but a few of the people involved in security patches and boost profit. How many security flaws do you think will get fixed? How long after a worm is released since staff has been reduced?

    Say that a new law (along the lines of collusion) is enacted that makes it illegal to only disclose to a company and not to the public since you are putting the public at risk by withholding information... thus helping said company. How many security flaws do you think will get fixed?

    If I buy a bike lock that can be picked with an ordinary pen do I want to know about it? Will the company that makes it do anything until everyone knows?

    1. Re:Take this to the extremes by jc42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If I buy a bike lock that can be picked with an ordinary pen do I want to know about it?

      Some years ago, I heard an interesting interview on the radio with a fellow who was an ex-burglar. He had written a book explaining locks and how to test them for ease of picking. He also named a bunch of brands that were inherently weak. His argument for publishing all this was the obvious one: The pro criminals know this, or have ways of learning it. Don't you want to know whether your own locks are any good? And just maybe, this will prod some of the shoddier lock manufacturers into improving their product; at least it might warn a few readers not to buy those locks.

      Somehow the computer industry seems especially illogical about this topic. If there's an insecurity in one of my computers, I'd sure like to know about it. Preferably before the pro criminal types learn about it. And, since I'm a programmer, maybe I can fix it.

      An incident from quite a few years ago might illustrate: I went to a meeting being held at the campus Jewish (Hillel) center, and found a crowd standing around outside a dark building. The person with the key hadn't shown up (and it turned out she was having car troubles). I walked up to the door, glanced at it, reached into my pocket and pulled out my pocketknife, opened a blade, stuck it in next to the door, and pulled the door open. It all took maybe 3-5 seconds, and we were in.

      I dropped by the next day to tell the rabbi about it, and suggest he call a locksmith. As it happened, he'd heard the story, and had called the locksmith, who showed up later and made a simple change - adding a pair of metal plates that made what I did impossible.

      Now, there was an obvious possibility here that I could have been charged with something. But I knew the rabbi, and he acted as I expected. He grinned and thanked me for noticing the problem (and for letting the group in). He was obviously happy that someone with a bit of knowledge (not much in this case) had exposed the problem before someone with less benign intent noticed how easy it was to get into the building.

      I don't know if he complained to the maker of the lock. I hope he did. Not that it would necessarily do much good. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any public repository of this sort of information. Or maybe there is, and I just don't know about it.

      Anyway, I'd consider anyone who wants security holes kept secret to be either a fool or a (potential) criminal. Yeah, tell the maker about the problem, and give them a month or two to fix it. But then all their customers should be told about the problem. It's the only way we'll ever get the big (i.e., shoddy) software vendors to clean up their acts.

      But I like to tell people that they should suspect the motives of anyone who wants security holes kept quiet. There's a good chance that their motives are exactly what you think they are.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  31. Re:Best Security: 1st Amendment by Fastolfe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The best security is to inform all users once a flaw is discovered. The users can then take their flawed web clients, flawed routers, etc. off line. That action immediately prevents the problem.

    Though I suspect you intended to imply here that the "information" supplied to the users should contain a detailed description of the vulnerability, let me just point out that a vendor could just as easily send out a notice stating that a critical vulnerability was just discovered, and provide mitigation instructions.

    This certainly gives the black hats enough information to start probing the impacted service but doesn't go so far as to turn the event into a race (thereby rushing a riskier short-term patch instead of allowing the vendor to produce a well-tested one).

  32. Re:Best Security: 1st Amendment by Fastolfe · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Its software programs will be bullet proof.

    Another thing to think about:

    100.000% reliable software costs exponentially more than 100.00% reliable software, which costs exponentially more than 100.0% reliable software. Companies cannot make a profit if they have to eat those costs, so they will have to be passed on to the purchaser.

    Given the choice between two vendors' products, that effectively do the same thing:

    1. Costs $1,000, took an extra 5 years to finish (and is thus 5 years behind the times), but is guaranteed to be "bug-free" (if there can ever be such a thing); versus

    2. Costs $50, integrates the latest technologies, but is riddled with bugs that will impact all of its users at some point, including some security vulnerabilities that will impact some percentage of its users and requires its users to install patches once a month.

    Which do you think is going to be more successful?

  33. Other Fields by ajs318 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If a particular model of microwave oven had a design fault which could cause the magnetron to turn on while the door was open, the manufacturer would have to deal with it straight away {and not in six months' time with users dropping like flies}. If a particular model of gas boiler had a design fault and could explode or leak water under exceptional circumstances, the manufacturer would have to do something about it {and not try to silence the person who tried to warn the world about it}. If a particular model of car had a design fault where the throttle would open wide or the brakes suddenly try to engage, the manufacturer would have to respond {and not try to pretend that the problem did not exist}.

    It should be no different with computers. If there is a security flaw, the vendor should act immediately to do something about it -- first warn users that the problem exists, and then get to work on eliminating the problem. And this should be done as soon as possible.

    The Open Source community generally responds immediately to security reports. Closed-source vendors should not be allowed to use secrecy to get away with selling an imperfect product. I believe that software suppliers should be held accountable for their products -- either by making the source code available for inspection {hence moving it more into the realm of goods supplied in kit form, where the purchaser has some input into the construction and therefore some responsibility for the eventual performance -- like using longer screws and adding extra bracing to a piece of flatpack furniture}, or by offering a guarantee of performance if they insist to keep it secret.

    It's also important to remember that (1) good guys outnumber bad guys and (2) if you discover something, the chances are that someone else has already, or is about to discover it.

    --
    Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!