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FEMA Demands Use of IE To File Online Katrina Claims
WebHostingGuy writes "As reported by MSNBC, if you survived the hurricane and are a Mac, Linux or Firefox user you cannot file a claim online. Further, you must have javascript enabled or face rejection. From the site: 'We are sorry for not being able to proceed your requests because you have failed our tests.' Opera and Netscape don't work either." Also reported at InformationWeek. From that story: "To file a claim online at FEMA's Individual Assistance Center, where citizens can apply for government help, the browser must be IE 6.0 or later with JavaScript enabled. That cuts out everyone running Linux or the Mac operating systems, as well as Windows users running alternate browsers such as Firefox or Opera. When TechWeb tested the site using Windows XP and Firefox 1.0.6, the message 'In order to use this site, you must have JavaScript Enabled and Internet Explorer version 6. Download it from Microsoft or call 1-800-621-FEMA (3362) to register' popped up on the screen." Update: 09/08 13:48 GMT by Z : Added word 'Online' to title to clarify story.
That's quite okay. I'd rather FEMA spend resources getting their arses to help the people instead of designing a better web portal.
If you think thats even in the top hundred things FEMA has gotten wrong on this, you haven't been watching the news.
Its a non-issue. A tiny percentage of real users have heard of anything other than IE, and an even tinier percentage of people who need FEMA support have electricity, internet access or a computer anymore.
If you all are going to get bent about something FEMA is doing, get bent about the fact that phone and internet is the only way to register and most refugees have neither. Or get bent about the fact that 90% of calls don't go through to the FEMA number.
This is just rediculous to get worked up about. Who cares? If 1% of thet people affected have internet access, and 1% of those use Firefox (and happen to be using someones computer that has Firefox and not IE), then out of the million people affected, what? 100 might have a problem? 100 people tech aware enough to use firefox? They probably can find a damn cell phone.
Likewise M$ stated that they will no longer support the Mac period because basically they have Safari.
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
If you've ever tried programming javascript for client side error checking of complex forms, you know that standards are very non-existant in the internet world.
You shouldn't use clientsided checking, as the golden rule in web developing is that you can't trust the client, EVER. Clientsided checking should only be used as a convenience for the user (save the user a trip to the server and back because he forgot to fill in something), not for anything serious. You have to check input at the server script anyway, so why not allow non-javascript browsers?
9 times out of 10 when sites demand that you use IE, it works fine with other browsers as well and the check is completely unneccessary. Just damn lazy site creators who assume it will take a lot of resources and time to verify that the site works with other browers.
Being bitter is drinking poison and hoping someone else will die
I'm sorry, but that's not just true anymore. It's what I do, every day - and where JS/Client side scripting was hellish in the late 90's there are plenty of examples of complex and mature javascript driven apps. Claiming that it's all too hard is the easy way out, there are standards, they are supported, widely amongst modern clients and it's just lazy to say, "screw it, we'll make it work in IE and nothing else".
You should also never be mandating error checking of complex forms on the client side because you can't control the client-side. If it's complex enough that you can't reliably deploy it in JS, you should be writing that logic into the server side code.
<? include ('signature.inc'); ?>
This is an example of what happens when you remove the public from participation in routine activites. One reason the gov't especially on public information systems should invite citizens to give them feedback is to prevent this kind of problem: people with older computers can't file. (this is a much bigger problem than Mac/Linux)
Back in the day, FEMA was drilled and had a civilian function though the Civil Defense program. FEMA was well drilled and practiced at large scale disasters because it was busy preparing to deal with what happens after a massive nuclear strike. In the 80s much of FEMAs prepositioned assets were sold off (as opposed to updated) - handy stuff like surgical kits, sealed ready for action truck-in hospitals, pre-built emergency clinics, ready to go tent towns and prepositioned ration reserves. I bought some stuff at a local government auction when it happened, too (nice tents, cots, surgical kits make nice fly tying tools).
The cold war era FEMA would have easily handled this disaster. The military commad structure would not have been nearly so worried about waiting for approval from a clueless governor or a mayor who was stuck in a location with limited communication capacity. Sometimes it is better to ask forgiveness from the politicians than the public.
-- $G
"FEMA Demands Use of IE"
Is this FEMA demanding? Or an ignorant IT services supplier supplying a solution which only works on the IE6 platform? Or (horror of horrors) is this system an in-house job?
Maybe FEMA need to revist their IT procurement strategy - if they have one.
In a situation like this, I would have thought that every effort would be made to make the application process accessible to everybody.
Having endured very similar circumstances, last year with hurricane Ivan, I can tell you that cell phones worked a month before any land lines or internet.
I can also tell you that the people waist deep in this disaster really appreciate the media and Slashdot slashdotting the FEMA site right when they need it the most. But, at least you worthless bastards are doing your part by whining about their choice of browser, stuff that really matters! The browser debate was really important to me when I had no water or electricity for a month!
That isn't the issue. The issue is that FEMA created a website for people to file claims and because if it's poor, incompetent and idiotic design (according to reports, the page works great with the IE user agent), people are barred from accessing that functionality. That's the problem. No one is advocating that the FEMA people stop all operations so that they can focus on fixing the site.
When a public institution sets up a service with the tax payer's money for the tax payers to use and in the end there are clients which *UNNECESSARILY* can't access the service, that is just plain incompetence.
Slashdot, fix your code or at least hire someone who is competent at it to do it for you.
Yes, I'm sure that they have their web developer out in a helicopter right now scanning for survivors. Give me a break. Someone is paid to maintain and support this website, and he or she is not doing his job well.
one that could be fixed by editing one lne of code
I think the problem and solution may not be related. Hang with me on this one. We are asking the browser to the website what brand of browser it is and then the website determines what you can and cannot see simply based on that one piece of information. It should be a little different, the web site asks, can you handle JavaScript and a reply of yes from the browser. The website will now send you JavaScript info. Can you handle frames, DHTML, CSS and the list goes on as new technologies are added. So your browser would have an XML sheet of the response it should give to questions. Don't like JavaScript edit it to NO and the website should handle the request properly anyway.
I really think that the User Agent string should be abandoned to prevent poor coupling and cohesion of website and browsers. This User Agent string should be replaced with a list of browser capabilities.
If your code is REMOTELY standards compliant then it'll pretty much work on every browser. You have to really lock yourself into Active X and .Net before you run into true incompatibility, which means you have to decide from the start to use a platform that you know is imprefectly supported.
If this was a business, fine, who cares. But this is a disaster relief agency funded by taxpayer dollars, and they goddamn well better have a site that can be viewed by all citizens who need to view it.
Just part and parcel with the rest of their collossal incompetence during the current distaster.
And don't tell me they have better things to do; I haven't seen 'em do hardly anything yet. They could have used the week after the hurricane, when they were sitting around with their thumbs up their asses while everyone else was doing their job for them to at least make a webpage that could at least be viewed by the people who're still using older versions of IE!
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
I don't think anyone has lost focus to the fact that there are bigger problems.
Having said that, the whole situation is bringing other issues to light as well. Requiring IE (6 or later) is just stupid and puts up another hurdle for some of the people seeking assistance.
This is the type of system that should be designed to conform to industry standards and the lowest common denominator. After a disaster we shouldn't be picky. Maybe all the "good" PCs got destroyed.
Keep the Classic Slashdot.
Not only that, but I frankly find it deplorable that FEMA is treating its website from a business perspective.
In a company, somone can find it most beneficial and cost effective (sometimes, wrongly so) to support the browser that has 80-90% market share (I'm probably off on that stat, but that's not the point). However, when it comes to providing aid to hurricane victims, the government is simply not allowed to only provide to 80-90% of the people.
There should not be any development costs even considered. Make the website work for everyone because EVERYONE needs the help. This is aid, not sales.
Perfecting Discordia
www.stevenvansickle.com
You imply that making the form perform well for non-IE6 web browsers would have required more resources than making it perform well for only IE6.
A multi-browser interface requires a different design, not necessarily a more expensive one.
It was likely more a case of FEMA doing a poor job of anticipating the needs of their customers.
If it was important enough for FEMA to spend resources to create an online form, it should have been important enough to take into account how people would likely access the form.
For Pete's sake - let's cut the propaganda for once. I've been helping out at the Dallas convention center for the past five days and I can tell you first and that, for the people I've encountered anyway, they have very, very limited computer skills. Most of them were very poor prior to Katrina and owning a computer was never truly an option. It's not like they're sitting there, pulling out their self-built box, and saying "Ah shit - Damn FEMA for forcing me to install IE". I'd be shocked if more than a handful have even heard of Linux or Firefox, nevermind using it. The people that are affected by FEMA's choice certainly have the skills, knowledge, and ability to handle this very, very minor situation. The rest of us, quite frankly, don't really care.
There are no towers. Central Offices are down. Emergency power generation is flooded. How can you say that cell phones work? Please note the massive demand for sat phones right now precisely because of this. But thank you for applying annecdotal evidence that isn't applicable.
This comment is guaranteed*
*not guaranteed
Your logic is seriously flawed. First of all, FEMA is a COORDINATOR of emergency services. This includes coordination at all levels from first aid and plucking from roof tops to getting people the information and help they need to get longer term assistance and aid across different agencies. FEMA is not providing helicopters, money or food directly. Again, they are cordinating emergency responders. Not every one of the million or so people effected by the storm in the area is at the same point or condition. You can not wait and devote every resource (including your contracted web developer like you suggest) until every single person is out of the city before you start working with the people that are already out. The emergency response is a parallel effort, not serial. Many people are at the next level and need to apply for assistance now. There is an artifical barrier in place that may make the application harder or more difficult for some people. I agree that FEMA is all jacked right now though.
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
>There are other methods to file your claim
AFAICT, many of those filing claims have to do it on line. The are running into problems with this setting up computer kiosks at all the shelters, since even if they are setting up a PC with Windows, it has to have the right version of IE, and many of the PCs are donated.
They can't do it via mail - a ton of people lost their homes, and have no address. Even those who have an address in LA, AL, or MI are still in trouble if they were near the disaster area since the postal service has halted mail delivery.
They can't do it via phone - those that have called have reported that FEMA will only mail them a claim form via the phone.
Is there some other method I am overlooking? AFAICT if you lost your house, and you don't have access to the right version of a web browser this is a pretty major issue.
Hyperbole is the worst thing ever.
That exactly reflects my current thought - what with incompetetence having advanced all the way to the White House.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
Actually, when the incompetence is deliberate (as in the loading of all of the top jobs with starkly unqualified political cronies) it is malice.
What if you can't afford an XP license?
Acquiescence leads to obliteration
I have gone through this with a number of organizations.
I have found that writing emails about the situation, the existence of the World Wide Web Consortium standards body, and the existence as well as compliance of "other browsers" with the w3.org standards.... politely, usually results in the site getting updated when the organization gets a chance.
Nobody wants to have their organization as being seen as backwards technically or with regards to standards.
Please do no just complain about this issue on slashdot. Send a polite not to FEMA.
You mean Medal of Freedom, right?
Not that being this stupid in any way is any more tolerable than if they had done it deliberately, but still...
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Mac user since '84, and Republican since I first voted in '76. I'm a Firefox using, MS-bashing, gun-toting, pro-choice, anti-church, SUV-driving, meat-eating geek (with that list, I'm sure I'll piss off everybody). And, if you're into political correctness, just add me to your foes list now. There are many of us that can't all be painted into the same extreme circle that you'd like to put us in. Just as you're not all Ted Kennedy liberals, we're not all Pat Robertson conservatives. Believe it or not, there are people on both sides that are actually *boggle* reasonable. I've got a couple of friends who are (by my definition) extremely liberal, and we're able to enjoy each others company because we can debate the issues without holding the other in contempt...unlike many of the folks here that can't resist the urge to karma-whore by turning every issue into a conservative bash-fest.
Just another day in Paradise
Similar to one by Heinlein: "Never attribute to malice that which could be adequately explained by incompetence."
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
I seem to recall a phrase from a President...
Something about a buck stopping somewhere...
Especially since the bucks responsible for upgrading the levee system were PERSONALLY slashed from the budget and diverted to Iraq - which in itself was a fucking moronic operation.
Not to mention the moronic folding of FEMA into DHS,as has been pointed out by every commentator in the last week. Which was no surprise to me, since FEMA's primary mandate is to secure the state, not the citizenry, in an emergency. In fact, the only "emergency" FEMA is mandated to "manage" is a threat against the state. It's no accident they're the ones with the authority to do all the things the conspiracy buffs like to cite.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
Wrong.
When your concept of "statesmanship" is paying off your political cronies regardless of competence, that IS malice.
The hallmark of the state is ALWAYS malice AND incompetence. Heinlein was wrong as it applies to the state.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
But what I fear is malice sufficiently advanced enough to disguise itself as incompetence.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Most of the population evacuated. FEMA claim forms are very important to people who left, are safe, but are running out of hotel money, spending money, gas money.
So, you're in a strange city, and your Dell Celeron box is sitting under a foot of mud. Doesn't really matter, as it's two hundred miles away, behind police roadblocks and without power, phone or broadband.
You can't reach FEMA on the phone - they keep hanging up on you because they're swamped.
You're looking for a computer with an internet connection. Not just any computer. No macs, no 'NIX, no webtv, no cellphone browsers, no older PCs. Windows XP doesn't even assure you success. It has to have IE 6, which was a large download and was unavailable at the launch time of any Windows desktop operating system.
You're looking for a computer that has either been updated, or is fairly new and runs windows. Heck, I've never seen IE 6 in a library! Around here, they run IE 5 or Navigator!
I don't get this "leader of the free world", I live in a free country (Brasil) and Bush is not my leader. There a many people in Europe for witch bush is not a leader also. I never voted for him, I don't like him, I am happy that my country goverment question his polices frequently. He is not the leader of the free world, unless free means something else I didn't learn while studing english.
[]'s Victor Bogado da Silva Lins
^[:wq
For the sake of the people who NEED to register, please do NOT Slashdot their site!!!
It's statements like that which suggest you probably do.
r able solutions almost always come back to bite you in the arse, which is a Bad Thing.
And (unless you're some kind of super-genius at every task they do) will be utterly despised by the poor fuckers who work under you.
Say it with me:
Unecessarily restricting your options is a Bad Thing.
Vendor lock-in is a Bad Thing.
Proprietary/nonstandard/deliberately-non-interope
Assuming you'll know the every single requirement placed on your system for the entire future of its lifetime is impossible, hubristic and stupid. This is a Bad Thing.
Designing to open standards, avoiding unnecessary vendor lock-in and maximising interoperability are Good Things.
Any questions?
Everything in moderation, including moderation itself
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Bush appoints the (completely unqualified, but old-boy friend of Bush) head of FEMA.
The head of FEMA is responsible for his organisation.
FEMA fucks up royally, in everything from its response to the New Orleans disaster to stupid piddling stuff like unnecessarily rejecting non IE-browsers on its website (which, nevertheless, can cause additional hassle and stress for people already destitute, financially ruined and recently-bereaved).
Damn straight Bush should carry the can for the whole fuck-up. He should resign, step down or be impeached for fucking the country until it can't respond to a simple natural disaster that everyone saw coming hours or days (weeks?) away. Not to start a right vs. left flamewar, but frankly I wouldn't be averse to seeing him do jail-time for the damage he's caused to your country.
The director of FEMA should resign immediately, since he's proven himself unable to do his job. He should emphatically not just be "golden parachuted" or shifted to another sinecure. He fucked up, let him find a new bloody job.
The guy responsible for the retarded website policy should have his knuckles rapped. He should have known better, and he's likely caused a lot of extra hassle for the last people in the country who need extra shit right now.
See, if you can't hold bosses responsible for the actions of their subordinates, what the fuck kind of restraints are there on them?
Everything in moderation, including moderation itself
You know given the flux that FEMA has been in the past few years, it's not suprising and, in fact, perhaps even understandable, that some tech hasn't yet got to the "Redesign online application form" on his ToDo list yet. I mean lets be honest people: How many of us have projects that have been sitting on our desk for 6 months, 12 months, hell 5 years, that we "just never get around to starting". The difference is that most of us don't work with FEMA and get our prioritizing mistakes posted to the front page of Slashdot when the shit hits the fan.
And just as a side note, if I'm ever in a disaster the size and scope of which requires me to contact FEMA, my first thought is not going to be "Oh gee I better check their website". I know it's 2005 and all but in that situation I'm still going to want to talk to a live person.
"1) How will he tell?"
;-)
;-)
:-(
If someone else tells him. If he happens to poke around in any way, and finds something that seems odd. If anyone remotely technical apart from you looks at the work, who doesn't:
i) Already agree the guy's a fuckwit
ii) Already know you lied to him and covered it up
iii) Agree it's ok to lie to your boss, and
iv) Have nothing to gain by showing the boss he's been lied to.
Once he gets suspicious you have to lie again to cover that. And at the very least he's going to be suspicious from now on, so you're less likely to get away with anything (possibly, more important) in the future.
Basically, once you lie to him once, you'd better be fucking sure he's never, ever going to find out about it. See my earlier point about "it'll never happen" scenarios
"2) If it works, why will he bother?"
Some people place a higher priority on "being obeyed" than on "things working".
They probably justify it to themselves that if they can't trust the employee to do whatever you want, no matter how insane, pointless or counter-productive, then you can't trust the employee, period.
The people are generally paranoid, uneducated in the relevant field, prone to micromanagement, fucking control freaks, and, overwhelmingly, bosses.
"3) You'll give yourself an ulcer if you keep bending over like that"
Well, no ulcers yet, but several bald patches on my head from tearing hair out, yes.
"4) If you let the insane define reality, then your reality will be insane"
Oh, do you work here? What are the odds?
"5) NEVER get into a position where you *need* the job. Build up, save a little, keep within your means and you can kiss a stupid job goodbye (note: if you get sacked because you didn't apply the required solution, but still got the result, you will get severance and dole)."
That's a lovely idea, but unfortunately, with the state of higher education in the UK, you're lucky to come out of your first degree without at least a £10,000 debt. A good first job in computing in my area is £16,000-£18,000. It can take a long while to dig yourself out of the hole, and you'd better quickly get used to getting fucked in the arse on the way...
Also, a note: I don't know where you're from, but here in the UK disobeying any reasonable request from your boss can easily end up as "Gross Misconduct". Getting sacked is also no guarantee you'll immediately get the dole, and the dole doesn't cover things like a car (essential to find a new job), university loan repayments, lack of a recent reference for your CV, etc.
Everything in moderation, including moderation itself
You and the other several hundred thousand people like you, in this case. Problem is there aren't 6-7 digits of FEMA employees to talk back to you.
That's what websites are for, isn't it? Hey what if I took my laptop and portable hotspot down to reunion center and volunteered a few hours to get people registered, etc.
Oh. can't. 'Cause I use fedora and firefox. Can't submit html forms.
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
Look, FEMA fucked up and was sloppy. I have no idea how much was the politically appointee at the top, and how much is institutional stupidity that goes back years. Some blame belongs to Bush and his appointee, on the "buck stops here" logic, but let's be realistic on some of what happened.
The Levee maintenance program has been "underfunded" for THREE decades. Every federal program is "underfunded," because people ask for the world, get something, and can now claim to have been underfunded.
It is NOT clear that if that $250m was restored to the Federal budget that the levees would have held. We have NO IDEA. But when the levees and a system designed for Category 3 Hurricanes gets hit with a slow moving Category 4, better maintenance PROBABLY WOULD NOT have mattered.
Louisiana/New Orleans have a Levee Maintenance Board that is supposed to maintain and improve the Levees. They can issue municipal bonds to pay for it (those lovely options that cities and states have that pay a lower interest rate than treasuries, because the interest is federal tax free, so the government picks up a third of the interest tab in terms of your rate being lower by a third). However, in typical Louisiana corruption, it was filled with political friends with NO INTEREST in Levees, and focused on casinos.
Further, FEMA is EXTREMELY powerful, which makes civil libertarians nervous. Here you have an executive branch department that can single-handedly declare martial law, basically suspend the constitution, etc., powers normally only available to Congress in wartime. The CHECK on government abuse is that a city or state MUST request that help. Now, in an ideal world, FEMA would ONLY be called in REAL emergencies (but when you declare an emergency, FEMA picks up 80% of the tab, so anytime you can you declare an emergency), but federal programs only work when they expand, not only act 1-4 times a decade.
The evacuation of New Orleans was the city's responsibility and the city's PLAN called for using school buses to evacuate people... why didn't this happen?
Notifying FEMA of where shelter's are is a LOCAL responsibility, because FEMA doesn't come in until AFTER there is an emergency. The Superdome is a lovely batch of embarrassment. FEMA learned through official channels 2 or 3 days in that there were people there with no food and water. The news-media was floored "don't you have a television." But as sad as this is, it kinda makes sense... You have some level of lower down FEMA officials going over their checklist, and the Superdome isn't on it, so it is ignored. The higher ups are watching the Superdome footage on TV thinking "those poor people, at least help is on the way." But a disconnect there completely makes sense, and is extremely tragic. Whoever is on the ground sees that it isn't on their list and assumes that it is someone else's. Those above that see it isn't getting help assume that it is on someone's list... More people die... I place the bame 70%-30%, 70% on local officials who didn't notify FEMA properly, and 30% Fed's, because when you see the media talking about people there being without food or medicine for 2-3 days, you call down the pipe until you find out who is responsible for it. The media attention could have made it possible to save lives, if someone thought outside the box.
Decades of mismanagement and corruption in Louisiana caused a catastrophe... Bush is apparently a COMPLETELY incompetent leader who can't get anyone good in the government... This situation sucks. But I'm sick of the partisanship on this... Plenty of stupidity goes around.
BTW: more has been spent on Levee's by the Feds in the 5 years that Bush has been in office than the 8 years that Clinton was in office. That doesn't mean anything, but this "Bush wanted to levees to break so he cut funding" doesn't match reality. I'm pretty sure that the leader of the free world wasn't personally overseeing levee maintenance... unfortunately, neither was the levee maintenance board...
Alex
"Look, your job is to make it work, the way you were told. If it doesn't, it is your fault. That's why he's the boss and you aren't:"
Try again. Your job is to obey the guy signing your pay-cheques. If that's what the guy signing the pay-cheques thinks, any disagreement on your part (even for the greater good) will quickly result in no pay-cheques any more.
"No, you will get fired if it doesn't work. With a moron for a boss, you are in a no-win situation. Leave, or at least plan to leave. It is better to leave on your terms than his."
I dunno - in my experience it's better to argue firmly and sensibly with the stupid decision then abide by it - if the worst comes to the worst you can always cite your objections and claim you were "only obeying orders".
If you go off and do your own thing, even if it succeeds, you haven't proven that the boss's approach wouldn't have. Therefore you have definitely disobeyed an order for a possible better outcome. This leaves you no excuse and no way of demonstrating (to non-techncal people who really don't want to listen) that it would have gone wrong in the first place.
Plus, y'know, there's a certain evil sense of satisfaction in sitting back, doing what you're told and watching it all go to shit... <:-)
Everything in moderation, including moderation itself