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Army Eyes Anti-Sniper Robot
Hiawatha writes "iRobot has teamed up with Boston University to create a robot that can spot enemy snipers on a battlefield. Before the smoke of the shot clears away, the REDOWL robot should have the shooter in its sights." iRobot is the same company that brought you the popular Roomba robotic vacuum.
Testers struck pieces of metal to simulate gunshots. REDOWL quickly aimed its infrared camera and laser rangefinder at the source of the noise, just as it did in tests at a Medfield gun range.
If this is the case, this RedOwl can easily be fooled where there are multiple gunshots, especially in a battle field.
While system could fire back at an enemy, it would be dangerous to have a weapon-toting robot that could open fire on its own. You need to have a man in the loop.
By the time a man reacts, the sniper could have fled, or worse, fired another shot at him.
... as long as there are couches for the anti-sniper robots to go hide under when they run out of juice and get lost looking for their docking units.
Besides, he said, it would be dangerous to have a weapon-toting robot that could open fire on its own.
''You need to have a man in the loop," he said.
The article says that the robot would not return fire, it would just pinpoint where the shooting is coming from. So, why does it need to be a robot exactly? Why wouldn't it just be a comptuer with some cameras and microphones?
One idea is that our soldiers could have a chip in their dogtags that the robot could identify so as to not shoot at them. Then you would have the problem of the enemy stealing people's dog tags, but maybe you could deactivate that code once you knew the enemy had the tag.
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
A good sniper needs only one shot to have his job done.
After shooting the sniper, the robot proceeds to vacuum the battlefield.
I work for a company called Trex Enterprises, and we built one of these a long time ago. Go check it out on our website... http://www.trexenterprises.com/laserrad.html
I sure hope it's better than the Roomba at its job... a friend of mine had one of those a year or two ago. It always managed to get itself stuck behind shoes, and didn't even do that good of a job vacuuming the floor.
"Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
Getting pwn3d by a .50cal through a wall may not qualify as wallhacking, but still... aimbots vs. campers.
War may never have been fun, but remember the good old days, when it was supposed to be? :)
"I think I saw that movie, the Robots won".
**insert favorite profound quotation here**
Back in the old days, before Rod Brooks started iRobot, I worked part-time at a small MIT AI Lab spinoff making robots for kids called Turtles. The Turtle was an outcome of Logo, and, which itself was an outgrowth of Lisp, and so somehow the company's name got on a list of AI and Robotics vendors. (Sidenote: Lego Mindstorms also came from this same group of people at MIT and industry, though not this particular startup.)
Anyway, we got a letter from a defense contractor asking for "applications of our AI and robotics products to battlefield logistics" and gave a half-dozen or so areas for us to evaluate our products.
As you can imagine, puzzlement gave way to amusement, which quickly gave way to mayhem and by 3:05AM we had started writing our response, starting off with "The Turtle enjoys very low observability, due to a minimal radar cross-section and an almost non-existent infra-red signature."
The letter made the rounds on the photocopy/bulletin-board circuit (there was no electronic copy available outside), and somehow the response got published in an ACM journal. Through the magic of modern imaging, it is available for you to read today in PDF.
But what happens if the sniper's first shot takes out your REDOWL unit? Are these things armoured, and would a robot with enough armour to stop an AP round have the endurance to keep up with soldiers? Shoot, this is a good idea (no pun intended) but is it practical for the battlefield?
Windows has detected an undetectable error.
How is this roomba going to fit the dead sniper in the tiny little vacuum cleaner bag?
The baby's fine -- please stop sending business cards.
I admit that I know nothing about this technology, at all, but in my imagination, I would like to think that a technology such as the one used for hunting via the internet would be a little better. At least a real human would have the ability to decide when and where to shoot rather than relying on code to decide whether or not the target is friend of foe.
;-).
Just a thought, though I admit that a robot has a lot more of the geek quality many of us would like to see
My lame blog.
Besides, any *smart* sniper moves from his position after each shot and rarely double taps.
"Hey, that guy's dead... but we know where the guy who killed him is!"
Isn't that better than "Hey, that guy's dead... and so is another guy! And another guy! And me... I'm dead, too!"
Just because I sniper rolls away from a window in some abandoned building doesn't mean we have to let that floor of the building continue to exist. And we nice things like predators to look down and watch for anyone leaving the building. Sometimes it is worth trying to catch someone like that, too - they usually are part of a larger, more organized effort.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
If it's from the makers of roomba, all the sniper has to do is stand in a corner and that bot will never be able to get him.
It doesn't need to be -- ou just get many of them. Mounted on the top of every Humvee, it'd be a serious challenge to snipe each of them out individually.
I can just imagine the way that the robot alerts the soldiers with it:
We Are The Targeting Robots
We Are Here To Protect You
The Sniper Is Detected
The Sniper Has Gone Down The Stairs
***
We Are The Targeting Robots
Grandpa Is Detected
Grandpa Is Detected At The Bottom Of The Stairs
I Am Here To Protect You
I Will Direct Fire On Top Of Grandpa
"'If one must live then one must die.' - oh, the truth must be funnier than this..." -- MammÃt
I hate it when people point out the blindingly obvious limitations of something as if they are some devastating flaws that render it useless.
The sniper might run away? Wow such insight!
In reality encouraging snipers to run away is still going to be a win on the battlefield. Presumably most snipers hole up in a reasonably secure, hidden vantage point and remain there. If a technology makes that unfeasible then you've gone a long way to decreasing their effectiveness as their initial tactical advantage is neutralised on their first shot. A sniper who's legging it isn't shooting at you and if you have a camera automatically pointing in his direction then tracking him is a possibility.
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[...] ground troops will find it hard to spot even at very close range.
[...] our research department is currently engaged in the testing of a 100-mile C3 for the Turtle. The thrust of this research is towards the development of an Extended-Range Turtle II. While this does result in a shorter tooth-to-tail ratio, we feel it could significantly enhance the battlefield capabilities of Turtle installations.
3. Installation Cost
The Terrapin Turtle is designed for installation at no cost by children and elementary school teachers. We feel that military installation cost should be under $10,000/unit.
4. Annual Cost of expendable supplies and spares per unit.
Ball-point Pen refills $0.59(one spare included)
In the rugged terrain of the battlefield, under rigorous load conditions, it may be necessary to occasinally replace the Turtle Tires. Due to fluctuations in the world rubber market, quotation of exact prices is not possible.
I love it.
...in order to kill Juba, the elusive sniper that has sapped morale in Baghdad.
I few years ago I think one of the Discovery channels had something on an optical bullet tracker, I'm not sure if it was from Trex or not. Basically, it took advantage of the fact that bullets move much faster than anything in their vicinity, so the only major differences between successive images from a high-speed digital camera would most likely be the bullets. They had a cool demo system where the camera was pointing at a shooting gun in the distance, and it was highlighting the trajectories of the bullets it detected on a computer screen, with all of the lines converging on the gun. Couple this optical system with acoustic triangulation, and you have the best of both systems: zero in the camera quickly on the general source of the shots using sound, then pin-point the exact source of the bullets optically. Eventually this system could be made compact enough to fit on top of a rifle like a digital scope.
Step 2, get a single-shot gun on that puppy, and let a local controller make the decision on whether or not the bot can take the shot from a short distance. Have a soldier then reload the shot, and repeat.
Step 3, have a single controller controlling a small set of turrets, each have many bullets, but a very limited firing rate, and low-calibre. These are mostly used for guarding, but can auto-locate and prioritise potential targets for highlight to the user as they appear. Guards are replaced. A speaker system will warn long before any shots are taken, and will require keyed permission before any weapon may be fired.
Step 4, fully-automatic, mobile turrets with extremely basic quasi-AI. Simple patrol routines, many bots to a controller, controller is given the highest priority input at any given time, though each device still requires digital oversight before a weapon may be fired. Speaker and microphone system allows basic use in social settings. Simple anti-theft devices are unsuccessfully installed to prevent black market aquisition.
Step 5, regular quasi-infantry replacement. Still no regular AI, but simple stair-climbing and object manipulator add-on components allow regular use of this cheap, modular little turret. Increases patrol coverage ability of the reduced-size army, and is used even in the most quiet occupied zones. Emits teargass or similar irritant if not opened correctly, and each device has a fairly unique set of openning steps. Becomes the common fictionalized face of the modern army.
Step 6, increased use and acceptance of such tools allow isolated private use of non-lethal mobile turrets. Wars and occupations that used to be implausible even today are actively considered. AI is still considered taboo on these units, but they do get more advanced quasi-AI never-lethal automatic modes with simple yet elegant rule sets for more situations.
Step 7, news reports of incidents and possible tragedies involving these units no longer phase much ofthe occupying nation's citizens. All controlled-weapon-robotic activity are redundantly monitored, and the guilty are regularly punished - the system is widely trusted and highly valued. Simple social-use AI robots gain a small level of utility (rather than entertainment), and limited acceptance. The solar system has a wide array of weak-AI devices, both public and private, on each planetoid. The use of humans in the army is mostly that of tactical oversight of unmanned weapon platforms of many types.
Will the end result be a good thing... can't tell. But something like this progression seems innevitable given existing technology, and the needs of both our economy and the perception of our military circumstances.
Ryan Fenton
Wow, a robot that detects snipers after they've fired their first shot.
Maybe they could use this technology in other applications, like detecting suicide bombers from the sound of the blasting cap that sets off the dynamite. Or maybe a robot that catches serial killers by counting the victims -- once they reach eight it sets off an alarm.
The only acceptable defense of scientific results is to say that they were the product of the Scientific Method.
Maybe they could just merge the roomba and the Sniper bot and create the "iSoomba", a sniper robot that efficiently cleans up the dead body when it's done killing!
... this kind of thing ruined Counterstrike.
Except, of course, for the issue that sound travels much slower than light.
The beltway sniper attacks were done at ~50-100 yards from the targets. At 100 yards, it takes sound 0.29 seconds to travel the distance, while light is nearly instant.
As has been proven time and time again, having a "man" in the loop doesn't keep your own people from getting killed.
The best way to not get killed by accident in a war zone is to stay home and make babies.
Ahh, you um work for iRobot?
Cause you sound like your trying to setup for the obvious answer...
"Buy two."
Sadly, only for members of the ACM. You can't even register for access unless you're a member.
Please help metamoderate.
In the article they mention that the machine can illuminate the target and can work on a mobile platform or can be mounted.
It would seem to me that this would be excellent to have either moving with troops and/or mounted around the barracks in an urban area. If someone takes a shot at you, the sniper is lit with a spotlight which a) prevents them from seeing very well, and b) lets everyone and their dog know where the shot came from. This would be quite useful.
Yes, there are problems, but I'd be interested to see how it worked out.
The holy grail, of course, would be a system which puts a bullet in the head of anyone who takes a shot at you, but that's just not going to happen - way too many unsolvable problems.
Even a system that put a tranq dart or something like that would be very hard to do properly - it's not the tranq dart that's the hard part so much as the problem that your troops might not be able to fire at something, or that a handyman would hammer in something at just the wrong pitch[1].
[1] - on the other hand, they DO get paid by the hour. 10 minutes a nail might be pretty good cash. ;-)
Ghillie suits utilizing evaporated aluminum minimize the IR signature of the person wearing them. Thwarting thermal vision required a change of tactics and slightly more specialized gear on the sniper's part - which is exactly what will happen with acoustic tracking devices. Muffling the report of the gunshot down to nearly nothing can be performed without significantly altering the ballistics of the bullet being fired by using conventional suppressors. Which means that this particular technology can be defeated more or less for 'free' where 'free' equals hundreds of hours in training to adjust to the subtle ballistic effects of a suppressor and the weight of said suppressor. What can't be reduced for free is the 'zipping' sound from the bullet exceeding the soundbarrier (all common bullets except .45ACP do this). To do that requires the use of special subsonic ammunition with extremely poor ballistics. No more one-shot kills on Taliban fighters from a mile and a half off (second from bottom).
--Ryvar
I'd hate to be standing on the battlefield having a calm smoke and accidentally drop my plank.
What if the robot is shot? Even presuming it had a gun it could rotate and fire back nearly instantaneously, if a supersonic round was used, the robot would be lying in pieces on the ground before it picked up sound waves from anything. If the detection system was optical-based, it MIGHT have a chance...
Please help metamoderate.
The enemy would be able to locate your soldiers by their tags too. I wouldn't want to carry an ID beacon on a battlefield...
--
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. . . eBay has expressed interest in the technology for as yet unspecified applications.
Just using sound won't do it for detection. Silicing is possible if you keep your bullet from moving more than ~1100fps, and long range accurate fire is still possible with that muzzel velocity if the ballistic coefficient is high enough (think sptitzer/boattail .308 around 275 grains). Even if you stay wtih "standard" ammo, you can alter the sound of it using "silencer" technology, to the point where it isn't really recognizeable as a gunshot.
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
First rule of government contracting:
Why build one when you can build two at twice the price?
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
The perps aren't sniping anymore, they're blowing themselves apart with dynamite.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
> Yeah it does buy a bit of time, but if the robot is away from the
> sniper, well, the sniper has no reason to shot, if it finds a
> reason to shot, say a person, and the robot is away, it's purpose,
> preventing human lives from being lost, is sort of defeated.
Snipers often miss. Even when they don't, with this system they get off only one shot before coming under fire themselves. That's a huge improvement over taking several casualties, being pinned down for half an hour, and having the sniper sneak of before you can locate him.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
In terms of government hands, there are no doubt many cases where it would be useful for INDIVIDUALS to quickly find out who shot first, so as to lay blame at the very least (1970, 1976, and I thought there was an incident during the revolutionary war, but I can't find it at the moment).
And there are no doubt certain cases where people WANT the government to know where the shot(s) came from (1963).
What's stoping the sniper from shoting the robot?
Not much. So you deploy two robots -- let's see him shoot both at once.
-- Alastair
I'd have thought this would be modded +5 Funny, because it is. But maybe people seriously think that the military no longer needs to deal with snipers. Unfortunately, the presence of suicide bombers does not negate the presence of snipers, and that Iraq is not the only place the US military finds itself these days.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
I used to be in the US Marines and was trained as a Designated Marksman, which is an urban sniper, and worked with many of the Scout-Snipers which are the "classic" snipers.
.50 caliber rifle (A.K.A. Special Application Sniper Rifle (SASR)). This means 5 seconds until the sound is heard and means the sniper can get a decent head start running away, if they want, which they probably don't or they can just stand up, wave, and be happy they are outside the range of any weapon their target is carrying. This is assuming they don't fire from the crest of a hill and slowly back down off of it removing themselves from any danger of direct-fired weapons. Yes, indirect fire is still a problem, but it has always been a problem. If you know where the sniper is, you can always call for mortar or artillery fire. However, this is hardly cost effective, and even calling in a strike on their position does not guarantee a kill - especially if they choose their location wisely.
My first comment is that a good sniper can hit someone at ~1500 meters with a
Second, snipers are some of the sneakiest people I have ever met. If you tell them there is a robot that will respond to the noise they make, they will just set up a booby trap a hundred meters away and have their spotter trigger it at the same time they shoot. (Snipers always work in teams.) There is no way the robot is going to hear a bullet fired when it is being over-loaded by the sound of 2 pounds of C4 being detonated. If the snipers find out that it can still hear them, they will daisy chain a couple of claymore mines together with some det cord just to make things more confusing.
Finally, on a sort-of-related-but-side note, I have seen bullets fly through the air and it is pretty cool. When standing behind a shooter, just focus on the air about half-way to their target. After a few shots, your eye will start focusing on the bullet.
Reading code is like reading the dictionary - you have to read half of it before you can go back and understand it.
Every Marine shoots from the 200, 300, and 500 yard lines. Because the 500 yard line is slow fire from the prone position, I and most of the Marines I served with thought the 500 yard line was the easiest stage.
He may be an average Marine marksman, but the average Marine is far better than the average Anonymous Coward.
I hope it's as good as the bots in UT2K4--those things kick my ass when you crank them up!
I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
The reasons that so many guerilla movements use the AK-47 are because it is cheaper than any other gun (of similar effectiveness), it is easier to maintain (they are notoriously rugged), any idiot can fire one (if I can do it, how hard can it be?), and they are everywhere. You make it sound as though they had a purchasing department. I would be very surprised if they did.
I realize that not all of the potential enemies we might face fall into the guerilla category, but that seems to be our enemy right now.
I cried real tears when Li Mu Bai died.
The mood of the average person in the U.S. now is that they are willing to pay to kill. They area willing to pay an endless amount of money for killing, but very little for making relationships.
It's all part of the thinking of the Military-Industrial Complex: If you disagree with someone, just kill them.
Supreme Commander of Allied Forces in World War Two and former U.S. President General Dwight D. Eisenhower said in a famous speech that we should beware of the "military-industrial complex". Here's a quote:
"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
"We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes."
Another quote:
"The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present - and is gravely to be regarded."
If you're interested in the subject of snipers in general you might want to read this story (and elsewhere) about a WWII Russian sniper named Vasily Zaitsev, and his duel with a German sniper sent to eliminate him. Various versions have the two adversaries stalking each other through the rubble-strewn streets of Stalingrad for days or weeks. The tale is often disputed and could have been Soviet propaganda, but it's a good story. I think it was also the basis for the movie "Enemy at the Gates."
1. place two auto-firing REDOWLs in the street.
2. make one of them fire.
3. sit back and enjoy.
The real danger comes 20 years after these get put into production when one runs for governor of California.
iRobot is the same company that brought you the popular Roomba robotic vacuum.
Great. This is how it starts, people. First they make household robots. Then they make sniper-spotters for the military. Pretty soon you've got a Cylon rebellion on your hands. Then the Cylons go away for 50 years, return as human cyborgs, and begin having wild sex with your brilliant computer science guys.
Hey, maybe those Roomba guys are just
Speaking of picking at nits...the M-16A2 service rifle has a range of 500 m for individual targets and 850 m for area targets. The last part of the United States Marine Corps known distance rifle qualification course takes place at 500 m distance. Semper Fi!
Since it must be mounted in the clear to ensure it is getting direct path sound, the sensors will be the sniper's first target. The added psychological impact of the troops seeing their sniper protection shot to hell is a sniper's dream. Thats what sniping is all about, sowing fear.
"Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.