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Why Microsoft Hates Blu-ray
An anonymous reader writes "The private feud just became public. Apparently,
Gates yelled at Sony's CEO because the new copy protection Blu-ray has adopted would prevent players from streaming content to the Xbox 360. Since the PS3 will have Blu-ray support but the Xbox 360 only has a plain DVD drive, this means PS3 will be the only console that can play HD movies. Also, Paramount just announced support for Blu-ray and
Warner Brothers may also jump ship. Will VHS vs. Betamax turn out differently this time?"
Will VHS vs. Betamax turn out differently this time?"
Not unless you can travel back in time. =P
"What do you think?" "I think 'What, do you think?!'"
What, it's not like he threw a chair at him while doing the Monkey Dance...
"They only thing Blu at MS are the screens of death!"
PS3 won't be the "only" console that can play HD movies. Microsoft has previously announced that future versions of the 360 will have HD-DVD drives.The HD-DVD version of the 360 may be released to coincide with the PS3 launch for all we know.
ART on dA
MS has fought so hard for DRM and copy control and now they are pissed because someone else's is biting them in the ass. Suckers!
Gates argued that Sony's new high-definition DVD standard, called Blu-ray, needed to be changed so it would work smoothly with personal computers running on Microsoft's Windows operating system.
Is there a reason to assume that Blueray drives or disks will not work smoothly in Windows, but will work fine in Linux, Mac, etc??
How do you like DRM *now* Mr. Gates?
After reading the article, I find myself supporting Microsoft's stance on letting customers stream their DVDs to other devices in the house. Of course, their position may be based upon the fact that the XBox doesn't have a Blue-Ray DVD player, so it's hard to tell if their heart is in the right place. Still, it's in Microsoft's best interest to have lots of tiny computers in a household that share information such as movies - all running Windows, of course.
God, I'm so sick of these DRM wars. It seems like the sole criterion on which to judge the two schemes is whether its DRM is good or not. Screw this, I'm not going to watch another movie, paid or stolen. They can shove their higher-resolution fascism where it belongs.
Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.
All this talk about corporations being hurt by this is a side show. The real victims are the consumers. This will cause massive confusion. People will wonder why some movies will play in their PS3, but not on the XBox 360. With such confusion, people will be less inclined to give such media out as gifts. I mean, no grandma will get her grandkids a movie that they may not be able to play.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
yesterday: Ballmer threw a chair at Google.
Today: Gates yells at Sony
Sheesh, of those billions of dollars, the Microsoft guys should invest a couple thousands on a psychologist...
The VHS vs Beta was about people trying to own the market for a particular format. This is about trying to controll information in an information age defined by the free flow of information. It is purely reactionary, and changes nothing about the fundamental fources at work here - they are trying to controll how people copy and distribute information just at the point in history where it has never been easier since the birth of human history to do just that. The truth is that when push comes to shove, the DRM people need the cooperation of their customers way more then their customers need theirs. They (the DRM's) are trying to seize controll, because they are vulnerable and they know it.
You don't get it. The content won't be streamed/copied around your house in the clear (MS still has Linux to worry about!) Instead, it will be transcoded to Windows Media DRM but Gates gets to own the keys to that kingdom. MS' position is NOT good for home users. It's just about trying to set themselves up as the new Gateskeepers
Who gives a toss? They can all destroy each other as far as I'm concerned. All Microsoft cares about with its strategic use of HD-DVD is that Windows Media becomes the eventual default, one true DRM and media format. They do not want to have to use anything else. Do you think Bill Gates gives a damn if the XBox 360 isn't able to stream to the PS3?
I for one welcome our new DRM overlords. There'll be so much incompatible shite nothing will work. Nice one.
I think the format wars are just the beginning.
If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
Blu Ray and HD-DVD have the same physical dimensions, the same tracking systems, the same video output, the same codecs and pretty much the same copy protection mechanisms. Even the lasers are the same frequency. 90% of the internals of the box will be identical. All they need are two lasers, or switchable optics, and even the cost of this will go down. Building a dual format player will not be that great a technological challenge.
How do you like it NOW Mr. Gates? Incompatibility keeping something from working on your platform? How do you like the taste of your own medicine?
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It's confirming all the stuff we've known (and worried) about for a while. No backups. Controlled streaming over a home network. Phoning home, and all that implies. All backed up by DMCA or DMCA-like legislation as it spreads around the globe at the behest of the media corporations (hello, Finland!).
Fuck 'em. I already own pretty much all of my favourite films and TV shows on DVD already. They can't force me to go hi-def and re-buy everything I've already paid for... can they?
You must think in Russian.
If I recall correctly, the Blu-ray format uses Java for interactive content. If corrent, that could be what riles Microsoft.
Ok, to clairify Paramount is on board with BOTH formats. They are going to produce HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. Like all production companies they will produce whichever product actually sells. Because frankly who cares if it's on an eight track as long as it sells and they keep margins to meet their profit expectations. According to Toshiba HD-DVD comes to market in Japan at the end of 2005. In terms of developement HD-DVD is well ahead of Blu-Ray according to Toshiba. HD-DVD is supposed to have better cost and productivity advantages over Blu-Ray. In addition it has greater proven capacity to date until Blu-Ray demonstrates a workable prototype of their higher capacity disks. So if HD-DVD comes out of the gates first and studios like Paramount and Warner Home Video start selling movies to consumers I find it hard to believe that other studios won't jump on board to sell their movies as well. When you sell gasoline, you could care less what car the consumer puts it in.
The great thing about standards is there are so many to choose from!
It's only been about 3 years since DVD reached its supposed "critical mass" in the market and the players became extremely cheap to buy. Isn't it a bit soon to be trying to replace DVD? I mean VHS lasted for something like 20 years, DVD has managed about 6. I presume the movie industry views high def movies as another means of getting people to double-dip on their films.
I can see the public rejecting the new formats though. Many people have only had DVD players for 2 or 3 years, they aren't going to want to go and buy a new player and start waiting for their favourite films to be re-released in HD, especially if they run the risk of buying the "Betamax" of this war. I would guess Sony's big gamble is that the PS3 sells by the truck load and thereby they get a significant user base with Blu-ray drives.
I'm sure we'll see lots of dirty tricks like HD films having lots of extras and the normal DVDs being left as essentially bare bones to "encourage" people into upgrading.
What is the driving force behind wanting a new format anyway? Is it because the film industry has bought into the bullshit that DVD piracy is somehow hurting legal DVD sales? Is it because the studios can sell us all the films we just bought on DVD again but this time in high def? I suspect it's probably both...
all you need is the 60 billion in pennies, a long pole. I think you could lift 800 measly pounds.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Of course, for Bill Gates to get all righteous about interoperability is just a little ironic!
The power station I work for generates 1.6 Gigawatts (spelt with a G)... plug into our switch yard... pay us a couple of million bucks, and back you go!!!!
//END OF MINDLESS BANTER
Ahh, we all knew one day that the confusion with the G at the start of a GIF file would seep into modern day life... is it pronounced Gif(t) or Jif? the saga continues!
----- Concentrate on promoting more than demoting.
Some departments within Sony don't like DRM, and they are going through some internal struggles. So support the products from the departments that don't have DRM(what ever Sony is calling it) aspects to them. That will send the message "We like your products, but won't by them when they reduce my options."
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
is it pronounced Gif(t) or Jif?
Ask Bill Jates.
My understanding is both HD formats will not allow you to output HD over analog outputs.
Xbox 360 doesn't have HDMI/DVI outputs, only analog component.
So I believe Xbox 360s (at least initial ones) are boned either way. Even if the streaming were possible to do, the box wouldn't be allowed to output the signals according to the agreements with the HD-DVD consortiums.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Sony/Philips developed the CD format. I think we can call that an umitigated success. Also, in Asia and to some extent continental Europe, MD is very popular.
Finally, granted Betamax failed as a consumer format. However, as a professional standard it has made SONY bucketloads of cash. It's fair to say that the last 20 years of television were created and edited on various finds of Betamax tapes and machines.
And memory stick ? Why do people bitch about memory stick and not SD, or MMC or compact flash ? I own devices that use each of these formats: why is it only SONY's fault that the market is fragmented and non-interoperable ?
First, why are we debating a new standard that is supposed to last 10-15 years when internet speeds and multimedia computers are becoming more and more usable? I don't know about the rest of you but if I can't download movies I want via internet, watch them on my laptop or stream them to a flat-panel monitor in the next decade I'll be amazingly disappointed.
If you want to force an annoying DRM-ridden-useless standard under our noses while waving shiny new gadgets in our eyes we'll do one of two things:
1) Ignore it. Some people will give in. The rest of us will know better and wait it out.
2) Hack it. You want to make my DVDs unrippable so when I'm on a plane I can't switch between 20 movies I paid for? What's to stop me from getting an adapter to go Blu-Ray Player--->Adapter---->Laptop---->Capture
Sure, it'd take awhile. But in as long as it takes to watch a movie I could void millions of dollars of pointless R&D money. Oh, and because it took me two hours to transfer the bloody thing, I probably will share it (something I don't do currently) with everyone I can so they don't have to do the same thing.
There's always a way. One of us will always figure out a way to hack a TiVo, reprogram an iPod, mod a playstation or rewire the garage door opener. And the more they insist on bending over the consumer with trite that doesn't work how it should, the more they'll leave it to Joe Schmo to do some real innovation.
And if M$/Toshiba or Sony/Everyone else buys up all the patents to adapters from their players to my laptop and refuses to make them?
I'll go back to VHS.
my first post after ages of reading
I was expecting this to be settled by now.
1 26916,00.htm:
According to http://hardware.silicon.com/storage/0,39024649,39
"Sentiment about the format rivalry varies, depending largely on the size of porn producer. Smaller outfits seem to prefer HD DVD for its lower cost, while larger outfits tend toward Blu-ray for the capacity."
Hey guys - how many times do we have to tell you: SIZE doesn't mean that much!
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
Ahh, we all knew one day that the confusion with the G at the start of a GIF file would seep into modern day life... is it pronounced Gif(t) or Jif?
um... one is a graphic interchange format, and the other is what choosy moms choose... I think your parent post was alluding to how Chistopher Lloyd pronounced it in the movies.
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But, I won't buy anything with overly restricted DRM.
I won't buy anything thats not compatible with my existing plasma screen, my existing DVI monitors, or my existing 32" widescreen LCD TV.
These devices are very capable. I see no reason to discard them for an overly restricted DRM regime.
This is not a financial decision. I understand that as an earlier adopter, I should be prepared to switch to different systems if the market shifts.
I refuse, however, to buy something whose technical specifications are similar (or worse), simply because the powers that be are insane.
I suspect other "middle-upper" class geeks feel the same way. All these people who have already purchased Plasmas, or LCD, or various other HD monitors are going to be mighty pissed when they are "supposed" to buy a new one. I expect that uptake of this crap will be slow.
As for myself? I plan to figure out some way to rip the HD content to my harddrive (I'm 100% sure its possible), and then either playback from a console unit HD, or store it in MPEG4 on existing dual layer DVDs.
My understanding is you can do 720p at 6 Mbps, and 1080i at 12 Mbps, with very good quality.
Both of those will fit on a dual-layer DVD fairly nicely.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
Although I do think Blu-Ray will win out in the end as Sony pushes a large number of Blu-Ray players into production with the PS3, meaning there will be a very large installed base of Blu-Ray players right off the bat. This will also help lower the price point for both the drives and the media as everything is ramped up into volume production.
And let's not forget, 200GB 8-layer discs. Yummy.
Not that I have any great love for Microsoft, but I have a greater concern that one of the main players in Blu Ray is Sony and being that Sony owns a major movie studio and tons of other media properties I see that as a conflict of interest. They are far more concerned with protecting their IP at the consumer's expense than looking at what's the best choice for us.
Ten or 15 years.... TEN OR FIFTEEN YEARS?!?! They really do smoke crack at those studios. Let me try to remember the various storage media I've had over the last 15 years...
1990: fifteen years ago, the removable media choices were 5.25" floppy at 1.2MB, or the just-starting-to-be-affordable 3.5" floppy clocking in at a whopping 1.44MB.
1995: CD-ROM drives with 650MB of storage were appearing. 600 times larger - two orders of magnitude larger than floppy disks.
2000: DVDs were becoming mainstream with ~9GB of space, another order larger.
2005: blu-ray is going mainstream with the PS3 and standard drives for PCs. With a current capacity of 50GB, its another order larger.
So in 15 years, we've had a 10,000 fold increase in storage capacity. I understand that blu-ray is designed to accomodate multiple layers in the future, but those are power of 2 increases, not power of 10. And really doesnt handle actual science/technology advances which would be incompatible by definition.
Does anybody actually think that removable storage tech will not advance another four orders of magnitude in the next 15 years? Or that future network tech won't swamp the 50GB capacity either? I mean, why would I carry that 1.44MB floppy around any more when I can copy that much data to and from my server over the net in about 3 seconds?
Having the same removable storage media not change much in 10 - 15 years from now sounds horribly myopic and stifling.
Very few words have their origins "in English." Most English words were borrowed from Anglo-Saxon, German, French, and a bunch of other languages.
After all, I am strangely colored.
I don't pretend to have a source on this, but I cannot think of a single English word that begins with a 'g' followed by a vowel that has a soft g (i.e. a 'j' sound) as opposed to a hard g (i.e. a 'guh' sound).
Gerund? Germany? Germanium? George? Geo? General? Gee? Generation?
Sure, it's mostly "ge" words, but what about Gibraltar? (As in "the rock of".) Gin? (As in the alcoholic beverage or the card game.) I mean these are just off the top of my head.
There's no rule in English that says a "g" followed by a vowel must be a hard "g". And people were saying "jiff" long before I ever heard anybody pronounce it with a hard "g". It's an acronym; acronyms do not need to take the exact same pronunciation as the words the individual letters stand for.
The original pronunciation was "jiff" and as far as I'm concerned that's still the correct pronunciation. I mean at some point, if everybody pronounces a word differently than you simply say the language has changed and move on. But enough people still use the original pronunciation that I still consider it correct - I mean if a certain percentage of people started pronouncing "gin" with a hard "g", I think the rest of the people are just gonna think they're a bunch of morons, right? Why is this different? To me, pronouncing "GIF" with a hard "g" labels you as a newbie - it tells me you first heard of the format after others had started using that pronunciation, and you've probably surrounded yourself with other newbies who use that same incorrect pronunciation.
Actually, the creators of the GIF format have repeatedly stated that the correct pronunciation is, in fact, "jif" with a soft "g". See here: http://www.olsenhome.com/gif/
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Don't you mean it's a whitelist instead of a blacklist? They control what you can do with it, effectively blocking out everything else, thus being a whitelist.
'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
Xbox 360 only has a plain DVD drive, this means PS3 will be the only console that can play HD movies
The XBOX 360 plays HD just fine - as MOST Studios have already backed and plan to distribute HD DVD Content on regular DVDs using WMV format, just like the "T2 Extreme Edition" that was released two years or more ago.
Using WMV HD capable compression capabilities, most studios have commited to providing HD Content on Regular DVDs using the Windows HD Media format.
This is why the XBox 360 didn't need a HD-DVD player, and will actually help to promote the basic DVD using more advanced compression techniques than the VERY AGED MPEG2 format.
Goto: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia if you want to see what 5.1 or BETTER and High Definition Video that will easily fit on a dual layer standard DVD looks like.
Additionally, does anyone not see the irony? Microsoft doesn't like BlueRay because of the 'additional' content restrictions - and yet people here are like "Yeah Sony, you are making it easier to lock our movies!". WTF?
This story is not only FUD, but makes assumptions based on CRAP information.
Slashdot editors and contributors, do you even fact check or monitor each other? Your commentary and news is turning into the laughing joke of the internet.
Now all the pirates that have downloaded and ripped mass quantanties of standard DVD's can sleep well at night knowing that they will eventually buy the HD versions...unless of course Jon Johansen has got some time on his hands to write HD DeCCS
Go ahead mod my karma bad, just remember what karma is fuckers!!!!!!!!!
There are a lot of people who are talking about Linux or Mac killing MS. Yeah right, I run linux and love it but lets be honest, we are tiny. Yet when people talk about getting people to use a different OS then Windows for somer reason people never include the PS2 and gamecube's and other consoles.
With the introduction of the next generation of consoles both sony and MS seem to want to introduce a multifunction entertainment device into each and every household. Can you say PC replacement? No of course not a pc replacement for the typical /. reader BUT again lets be honest, we are a tiny portion of the total populace.
With the x-box MS has in some way's introduced a non-branded pc. Bear with me for a second. Although there are a lot of logos and a lot of attempts to have exclusive content for each console compare the difference between say owning a gamecube/ps2/xbox to say owning a mac/linux/windows pc. As the original playstation has shown it is extremely easy for people to switch consoles. Although consoles have 100% lockin compared to pc's (have you ever tried inserting a PS2 disc into a gamecube, where as I can read MS doc's on both mac and linux) this does not translate into consumers being locked into the consoles. I am even willing to bet there are a lot more people who have multiple consoles compared to multiple OS'es.
So why is the x-box then such a bad move? Simple. It has to a large extent undermined the position of the PC as a gaming device reducing that platform even further in the hopes of generating more x-box sales. The story of Halo is the most blatant example.In return for generating rather bad x-box sales they showed the world that MS itself did not seem to think its OWN pc market was a prime gaming market anymore.
MS owns the PC but instead choose to back the console wich nobody owns, just ask nintendo or atari or sega about how quickly you can go from owning the current generation to being last. Nintendo is surviving at the moment purely because of its brilliant handhelds.
This current spat about blu-ray seems to be MS suddenly realizing that IF consoles really are the way of the future then MS may have dug its own grave. If it allows the kind of DRM nightmares that consoles are (we will have to see if this really happens considering recent legal developments in australia and before in france) then there might be a future where people will no longer want a PC because it doesn't allow them do anything anyway.
MS may have to do some soul searching but someday it might realize that like ISP's and the telecom industry its business is piracy and porn. Philips already realized this to an extent. It sold its media company and now is pure hardware. Does a maker a burners really have an intrest in making it impossible to make your own copies off cd/dvd's? Of course not.
Same with MS, exactly how many of its home pc's are used mostly for copyright infringement? I am not just talking pure simple copying of dvd's here. The big movie companies all have tried time and time again to claim that making your own fan website about a property they own infringes on their copyright. If this becomes accepted practice then who needs a pc, if you can't do anything with it.
Imagine this, no game mods because the game companies don't want you to, no fan sites because the property owners don't want you to, no content because copyright owners don't allow it to be copied to pc. Exactly what reasons remain to own a pc then? Oh sure. Wordprocessing but I got news for you that is something people could do at the library/work/school instead of owning an expensive piece of hardware. ANd you hardly need Windows Vista to type the occasional CV.
Exactly how is MS going to sell Windows Vista to the home user is the home user can't do anything with it.
I think MS has a serious case of a split personality. On the one hand you got this
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
[i]Finally, granted Betamax failed as a consumer format. However, as a professional standard it has made SONY bucketloads of cash.[/i]
No. BetaMAX is a consumer format. The professional format you seem to refer to, is called BetaCAM. They shared some characteristics, but BetaCAM tapes are of much higher grade and achieve a studio grade quality bandwidth. Even earlier and also sharing some characteristics are the machines some call "U-matic".
BetaMax was in widespread use in my country until 1992.
Let me add a couple of formats sony also was behind: Video-8 (low bandwidth) and Hi-8 (with many incompatible methods of writing to the same tape by different cameras), and the 3 1/2" floppy standard. I would also mention atrac, the lossy audio compression format used in the MD.
Artix
Your Linux, your init.
From what you said, the following is true:
1) Make technology and take it to market
2) Make something better and expect everybody to replace previous one
3) ????
4) Profit!
Sorry, but your point is completely bogus, 1.2 and 1.44MB Floppy Drives were not introduced to market just fifteen years ago, that was in 1984 and 1987, respectively. And guess what? They are still in production. Some pretty big manufacturers still offer them in top of the line models. Are they great? Not anymore, but there's still a market for them.
The Compact Disc was introduced in 1982 and the CD-ROM format in 1985. That's not 10-15, but more than twenty years ago.
DVD was introduced in 1996, almost ten years ago, and I don't see it going anywhere anytime soon.
It's not about bringing new formats every couple years, the formats need time to mature and penetrate the market, they need a long time for both manufacturers and content companies to get ahold of the technology, offer enough content and really take advantage of economies of scale. Changing factories, manufacturing technology and playback equipment just because you could make it one order of magnitude bigger would be a horribly myopic and stifling thing to do.
It's perfectly fine to expect Blu-Ray or HD-DVD to be around 2015 and beyond, if any of those formats take off in the first place. If they don't, well, they weren't good enough from the very beginning.
- Otaku no naka no otaku, otaking da!!!
I've only ever heard gif pronounced with a hard G here in the UK over the last ten or so years, so it may very well be a regional thing. At the time I started using it, it was inconceivable that you would pronounce it JIFF, because .jif was (and, I believe, still is) a valid extension for a form of JPEG image (JPEG/JIFF), and no one would have a clue which you were talking about.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
The real reason microsoft hates blue-ray is becase all the menus and animation and games and extras are mandatarily to be done in java.
.net cf take up aleady looks like shit by comparison and every nokia/sony/moto/samsung phone shipped makes it worse.
If blue-ray takes off sun can claim the number of java-embedded devices doubles from 5 billion to 10 billion devices or whatever.
'Be the change you want to see in the world' - Al Gore
You misspelled Congo rats.
I remember having this discussion in '96 while working for a high-end online-marketing consultancy in Boston. ultimately the soft-g speaking GIF camp in that circle agreed there was no good reason an acronym should not reflect the pronunciation of its constituent words. Of course, we were more apt then to question these sorts of things given the relative age of the field and the opportunity to prefer reason over anecdote.
Link please?
To me, pronouncing "GIF" with a soft "g" labels you as either a newbie, or someone who has never really considered the question for whatever reason. Between '96 and '01, most web-professionals I had the opportunity to work with along the NE corridor used the hard "g" pronunciation. Granted it's been a while since I've done active web development in a social context (closing on 5 years), and maybe the pendulum has swung to soft 'g' during that time. Then again perhaps there are more complex regional preferences at play here than meet the ear.
Roll on PNG. Of course, people will only use it if there is an argument on how to pronounce it, at which point people will want a new format to stop said arguments.
I'll start the ball rolling... Is it pronounced pee-en-gee or ping?
Oh the flamefest that shall begin!
My comment was based on TFA and what I read previously. The Blu Ray consortium only agreed to support VC-1 on the condition MS stayed neutral to both formats. Now that MS has broken that agreement the Blu Ray group is not bound to supporting VC-1 except for technical/time reasons. Supporting Requiring.
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