Real And Microsoft Close to Settlement

pdirty writes "Real networks may be close to winning a $750 million settlement agreement with Microsoft following Real's antitrust lawsuit against Microsoft. The deal would include Microsoft paying cash as well as advertising for Real services, and products through channels such as MSN. Real is holding a conference call after the closing bell today to announce the details." From the article: "The deal follows on the heels of the European Commission appointing a watchdog last week to monitor Microsoft's compliance with its antitrust ruling. The pact is the latest in a string of payments by Microsoft to settle charges, including $750 million in 2003 to Time Warner to end charges about Microsoft acting to suppress Netscape, and $1.95 billion to Sun Microsystems to settle a suit by Sun over Microsoft's use of incompatible Java technology."

Comments

Changes coming to windows

[Anonymous Coward]

You will now have to enter a valid email address before logging into your desktop. Also several new unexplained executables will be added to every user's startup folder to enhance the browsing experience.

Re:Changes coming to windows

[aaronl]

Investigate "Real Alternative". It installs the Real Media DirectShow codecs and then anything can play the files back.

Oh Oh

[saskboy]

"The deal would include Microsoft paying cash as well as advertising for Real services, and products through channels such as MSN. "

This means that ads in MSN messenger are going to say
"Buffering... 33%"

And Microsoft should really consider advertising for Mozilla too.

Re:Oh Oh

[Queer Boy]

And Microsoft should really consider advertising for Mozilla too.

The problem was that Real wanted to PAY to advertise on MSN and MS said no. It was not free exposure they were after.

Re:Oh Oh

[AviLazar]

In this country, since when does company X HAVE to render services to company Y. As far as I have ever seen a business can refuse service to anyone they please for any reason, so long as it is not the WRONG reason. The wrong reasons being discrimination (i.e. color, race, gender). Hell, we refuse to help our competitors...and frankly our competitors are not putting spyware on our clients computers.

Re:Oh Oh

[The Lynxpro]

"And Microsoft should really consider advertising for Mozilla too."

Not really far fetched since Microsoft advertises on Slashdot, which is probably the world's largest collection of rabid anti-Microsofties posting on the net. :)

Actual Press Release

[gurustu]

The press release with details of the deal is here.

what about iTunes?

[Afecks]

OS X comes with iTunes yet there is no foul play there...

Re:what about iTunes?

[mrchaotica]

Hmm... do you think it could possibly be because, unlike Microsoft, Apple doesn't have (and abuse) a monopoly on desktop operating systems?

Re:what about iTunes?

[EvilMonkeySlayer]

Well, maybe it's just me but I thought you could actually uninstall iTunes. (drag and drop to trash)

I also thought Apple weren't a monopoly, but I must be wrong!

Re:what about iTunes?

[ad0gg]

Windows Media Player has been included since Windows 3.1. Apple had quicktime since System 6. This was way before real even existed as a company. This lawsuit is about Microsoft bundling media player in windows.

Re:what about iTunes?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

incompatible java technology? how the fuck did they manage that?

...by shipping a Microsoft created JVM that intentionally broke the java standard.

Re:what about iTunes?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

OS X comes with iTunes yet there is no foul play there...

All sorts of people go to school playgrounds and it isn't illegal for them, so convicted child molesters out on parole shouldn't have any trouble going there either.

Luckily, the laws say otherwise. Monopolies can't use their monopoly to create a new one. Apple sells computers and bundles an OS and a mouse and iTunes. They don't have a monopoly on any of those things. MS does have a monopoly on desktop OS's, thus they can't bundle new products with it. If they want to sell the media player as a separate product with financing segregated from Windows that is fine.

Re:what about iTunes?

[badriram]

Well see MS was not declared a monopoly until court pronounced it as such. So what are companies supposed to do until then?

When you are at 69% market share something is legal and at 70% it is not? Even the courts or the laws cannot agree is what exactly a monopoly is. The entire concept of having a monopoly and abusing it is f'ed up. This is esp. true when competitors can do the same. The way I look at it, if Apple bundles iTunes with their OS, and MS competes with them, they should be allowed to do the same.

Of course the problem is how to protect companies like Real wants to compete with Apple and MS, on particular part of their OS. There are no good answers that treats everyone fairly.

Re:what about iTunes?

[Xarius]

Neither is Microsoft, Apples existence proves that (Not to mention Linux, UNIXex etc)

Re:what about iTunes?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Well see MS was not declared a monopoly until court pronounced it as such. So what are companies supposed to do until then?

Your first sentence is kind of silly. MS was a monopoly long before they were found to be such by the courts. A company is legally a monopoly based upon their effect on the market, which MS was well aware of.

The way I look at it, if Apple bundles iTunes with their OS, and MS competes with them, they should be allowed to do the same.

Ahh, but Apple does not compete with them. Apple sells computers and bundles an OS as incentive. Sure they sell boxed sets of their OS, but in very small numbers and only as upgrades to existing customers who bought a computer. Other companies also sell computers with OS's, or support with OS's or services with OS's. No one sells OS's by themselves to be bundled with computers because one company has locked everyone else out of that market.

Of course the problem is how to protect companies like Real wants to compete with Apple and MS, on particular part of their OS. There are no good answers that treats everyone fairly.

We have a tried and true method for that, it is called a fair market. You see Apple can sell whatever they want on whatever platform they want. They can include code to eliminate Real on their OS. That is just fine, because their is nothing stopping Real from getting into the OS and computer hardware business, or partnering with others in that business and competing with Apple. The problem only occurs when you run into a monopoly. Real can't create their own OS and compete with Windows on fair ground, because MS's market share, business contracts, and technological mechanisms prevent them from doing so. Everyone is playing by the same rules here and you can damn well bet MS knew about antitrust laws long before they were in any danger of breaking them. They chose to go for lock-in, intentionally break the laws, and settle the lawsuits as their business model. That is their choice, and they are not deserving of any sympathy for the results of that choice.

Re:what about iTunes?

[Dephex Twin]

MS is legally known as a "de facto" monopoly, and this was verified in various courts. Did you think, after all those trials for Microsoft's monopoly abuse, that nobody thought of Apple or Linux until you just now?

Re:what about iTunes?

[killjoe]

"When you are at 69% market share something is legal and at 70% it is not? "

Having a monopoly is not illegal, abusing one is. MS was not found guilty of being a monopoly, they were found guilty of abusing that monopoly.

"Of course the problem is how to protect companies like Real wants to compete with Apple and MS, on particular part of their OS. There are no good answers that treats everyone fairly."

Nothing is prefect not even the antitrust laws, but that's all we have. I think the vast majority of people here in /. would be perfectly happy just to see the law being applied fairly and people punished for breaking the laws. Alas MS seems immune to US law.

But until the closing bell...

[Tackhead]

> Real is holding a conference call after the closing bell today to announce the details.

But until the close of trading, the RNWK conference call says onlBuffering... buffering... buffering...

Unfortunatly

[RingDev]

I'm going to have to side with MS on this one. Real released a crappy product with a shady web site. I think it's a shame to capitalism that the better product will be funding the lessor product in this case.

-Rick

Re:Unfortunatly

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Real released a crappy product with a shady web site. I think it's a shame to capitalism that the better product will be funding the lessor product in this case.

Then perhaps MS should have competed on the quality of their product, instead of illegally bypassing competition and bundling their product with their monopoly. Your opinion is that WMP is better than Realplayer, but it is not up to you or MS to decide what product deserves to be purchased. It should be left to market forces to decide, based upon honest competition between the two products. Those market forces cannot act when a monopoly is used to "force" all users to pay for one option whether they want it or not.

Re:Unfortunatly

[RingDev]

"but it is not up to you or MS to decide what product deserves to be purchased."

Never has been. I have never purchased WMP, Winamp, or Real MP. No one's sales have been hurt by Microsoft's actions (by my actions at least).

RMP sales have been hurt for two reasons, 1) it is an inferior product, and 2) it has a very poor image.

Using your logic, the makers of TextPad should be able to sue Microsoft for including NotePad in their OS. But they don't. They produce a supirior product and compete with microsoft. Real had that same oppertunity. Produce a supirior, or hell, even similarly performing application, and they could have competed with Microsoft. Even if their product was as annoying as WMP 9 it still would have been popular just because so many people look for non-MS solutions. Instead they create a bloated resource whoring program that was grocely inferior to not just WMP, but pretty much every other streaming content viewer.

-Rick

Re:Unfortunatly

[m50d]

I'm going to have to side with MS on this one. Real released a crappy product with a shady web site.

Then why couldn't MS have beaten them by playing fair? Say what you like about them, Real were wronged here and deserve compensation, no matter how bad whatever else they've done.

Re:Unfortunatly

[pgnas]

Yes, this is actually sad, talk about an invasive, bloated, lousy product. I can't wait for "Vista" with Real Player Technology. I bet it will ask you everytime you start windows to provide email address and other demographic data...

As if there are not enough problems with Spyware on Windows machines, now the OS will come standard filled with it.

"will enable Real to build services and software that enhance consumer's experience with Real's products and services and take advantage of innovations in Windows Vista."

Sure, why not start out on the wrong foot with your new OS.

"Microsoft will enhance consumers' ability to access Real's software products in simple and straightforward ways, enabling consumers easily to choose their preferred settings for playing media files and managing other media experiences.."

Simple and straight forward ways means that it is installed by default, right?

it is a sad state of affairs indeed when sub-par software is perpetuated via some legal processes. If Real player, and all of it's media spin-offs were that good, it wouldn't matter, people would chose what they like. Now they may not have a choice, funny how that works..

Re:Unfortunatly

[TheNetAvenger]

Then why couldn't MS have beaten them by playing fair? Say what you like about them, Real were wronged here and deserve compensation, no matter how bad whatever else they've done.

Then why in the deal would Real want access to Microsoft's Media technologies and codecs? If Real knew they had the best product, they wouldn't have even requested this in the settlement.

Quote from article on MSNBC, "RealNetworks will also get licenses and commitments that give it long-term access to Windows Media technologies to enhance the Real Player software."

Think People, Real was not the ONLY competing product, they just had enough money to sue the easy cash cow. What about tons of other pieces of software that 'should' have been affected and weren't. Like Winamp? Winamp is a popular as it has EVER been. They made a product a lot of people liked better, period.

I work for a company that also makes products that 'compete' with Microsoft, yet their developer resources and even their support people are willing to help our company at any time.

Real knew their products were crap, the guy that started Real was 'from Microsoft' taking some Microsoft technology with him, and in the end, Real told Microsoft to spit and step in it when Real had the popularity.

Microsoft said, ok, fine we will... Real all but died.

(See if people did think, they would REMEMBER that Real Player WAS BUNDLED with Microsoft Windows Prior to 1999. - Real screwed themselves.)

Re:Unfortunatly

[RingDev]

"You haven't bought a copy of Windows or PC hardware from and major vendor in a while then huh?"

Correct. I bought a copy of XP Pro last year, so you could argue that the cost of WMP 9 was included, but I have since downloaded WMP 10 for free.

"That is a fine assertion, but there is no way to prove that "

Take a look at the general response here. A typicly rabid anti-microsoft community is placing RMP in an even worse light. True, this >could
"In truth they have to make product so much better than what MS make that people have to be willing to pay the cost of both programs just to get the better one."

And what's wrong with that? If I want a car, I buy a car with exhaust. If I want better exhaust, I buy a Borla catback and install it. And in this case, we are comparing free goods. WMP 10, RMP, And TextPad can all be downloaded for free.

"Picture a world where MS and a hundred other vendors all submit bids on text editors, web browsers, e-mail applications, office suites, etc. to Dell (and all the other OEMs) who then bundles one or more of those applications based upon what their customers want and the cost. That is called a fair market."

Customers are still free to choose what ever 3rd party tools they want. Or are you suggesting that Ford should start shipping cars with out exhaust so I can have the dealer install the specific exhaust system I want? The cost of the system would far outway the cost of installing 3rd party tools and the free market would look for a cheaper alternative. And viola, we're right back with Microsoft.

"They have to produce a product that is better by so much that people who have already been forced to pay for the cost of one program will still pay for the second one. That is not fair competition."

ooh! ooh! I've heard this one before. This is the part where I say, "Who said life is fair?" ;)

"They have a monopoly. Monopolies can be used to bypass fair competition, but need not be used to do so. It is illegal to use them in this way."

Correct, Microsoft is still considered a monopoly. But being a monopoly is not illegal. If MS actively pushed any PC vendors to not include RMP, it would be a violation. If MS purposely designed their system to break RMP, it would be a violation. If MS packages a (widely accepted as) superior product with a product, that's called added value and is a simple part of marketing. If someone does not want the MS add ons, they can buy the MS Windows lite (or what ever it is called) that does not include WMP or IE. Oddly enough, sales of this consumer liberating version of the OS have been very poor.

"MS knowingly decided to break the law, and make consumers suffer financially and technology suffer by removing the innovation that results from competition."

MS offers a reduced cost version of Windows, and there is still a lot of competition in the streaming media industry. MS does not have a monopoly over all aspects of everything digital, they have a monopoly in the OS and Browser markets. If they use their power in the those markets to destroy their competition, have at them. But in this situation, it's a simple case of the free market moving away from the least desired good.

-Rick

Game plan

[k98sven]

1) Use monopoly power to crush and stifle any competition
2) PROFIT!!
3) Pay off government to drop anti-trust charges
4) Pay off former competitors to drop anti-trust charges
5) EVEN MORE PROFIT!!

Nothing quite like the "free market"..

Re:Game plan

[RightSaidFred99]

Actually, that is the free market. You're (through witless sarcasm) implying you want socialism. Here's your little joke properly worded 1) Make inferior product 2) Whine to politicians 3) Sue over a monopoly that by definition doesn't exist 4) Get pro-linux nerds (who also can't compete, on the desktop) all worked up and indignant on your side 5) Post to SlashDot so your fellow geeky dweebs can get all worked up 6) Win lawsuit 7) Profit!

Re:Game plan

[alnjmshntr]

Real's (or even SCO's) gameplan:

1. Make product that noone wants.
2. ?????
3. LOSS!!
4. ?????
5. Sue the shit out of everyone.

Re:Game plan

[fiendo]

Monopoly--1 : exclusive control of a particular market that is marked by the power to control prices and exclude competition and that esp. is developed willfully rather than as the result of superior products or skill (Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.)

By the legal definition I would say that Microsoft is a monopoly and this position has been upheld in court. As Adam Smith pointed out monopolies are the enemy of good management and therefore antithetical to a free market. It is in the best interest of healthy competition to regulate monopolies and restrain them from abusing their power.

750!!!

[gbulmash]

Seems like the standard settlement with Microsoft is $750 million. Maybe they just have suitcases with $750 million pre-prepared. When it comes time to settle, Ballmer takes one out of the closet, opens it up, shows it to the aggrieved party, and says "how does $750 million sound to you?"

Their little eyes grow wide, their little palms grow sweaty, and their mouth dries up. "Yes, Mr. Ballmer. That will be fine."

They reach for the suitcase, but Ballmer snatches it away. "First you'll have to sign this," he says, pushing a settlement agreement their way. A pen lies on top, and as they pick up the pen, it extends a small needle and pricks their finger, sucking their blood into the inkwell.

They sign.

As they take the suitcase and walk out of Ballmer's office, they hear an evil laugh behind them... muahaha. They turn to see that Ballmer has grown to twice his size, sprouting ram horns from his forehead. "You signed it in blood," he bellows. "Your soul is mine!!!!"

But hey, $750 million can buy a heck of a good time while you're still alive.

- Greg

Re:750!!!

[clem]

$750 million for a soul? Please. I mean, come on, it's a buyer's market -- I'd think they'd be able to snatch up souls for far less change than that.

So...

[Ikn]

Microsoft finally learns the same hard truth we've all learned: once you've touched RealPlayer, THEY NEVER GO AWAY.

WindowsMedia assimilated by RealPlayer

[digitaldc]

"Under the music and games agreements, Microsoft is scheduled to pay Real $301 million in cash and provide services over 18 months in support of Real's product development, distribution, and promotional activities."

Oh great, now when we start up an XBOX, a notification of a RealPlayer update will appear in the corner, all the media and game files will be hijacked to only work in their player, and the configuration settings are buried in 3 subsets of obscurely-titled menus.
I wonder what it must feel like to be in charge of quality control and implementation of this new Win-Real venture?

Re:Anti-Trust, Schmanti-Trust

[saskboy]

"Real is worse than herpes."

I'm afraid I can't agree with you. I've managed to disable the Start Center and Jukebox from auotloading, but I don't think anyone's found the elusive cure for herpes yet. Real is also slightly less contagious, but the automated re-billing is about as deadly I have to agree.

Oh, great

[jleq]

I stopped using RealPlayer after the "G2" version came out (1998, I think?). Even then, it was becoming bloated crapware. Just what I want is for Microsoft, how ever evil they may be, to be FORCED to include that crapware with Windows. OS X includes iTunes, and nobody complains about that. Most Linux distros include XMMS, and nobody cries.

RealNetworks has done more damage to themselves than anyone else could, through the overpromotion of unstable software, with annoying ads, and 192352398235 different taskbar crapplets that nobody wants. After most streaming sources went to either streaming MP3 or WMA, Real pretty much died. They lost a market they created due to poor management and bad software. Nobody cares about them anymore, and frankly, I wish they'd just get bought or disappear alltogether.

Note to mods: please only select the "-1 Flamebait" box if you REALLY think I'm flaming. Personally, I don't think I am, but it's up to you.

Re:Oh, great

[mopslik]

Most Linux distros include XMMS, and nobody cries.

When it comes to packages, Microsoft is either Microsoft-centric, or just plain lacking.

Most Linux distros include a number of media players. For instance, my SuSE 9.3 install DVD included xmms, amarok, mplayer, kaffeine, totem, xine, etc. Many from different organizations/vendors/projects, etc.

Microsoft Windows ships with Microsoft Media Player. Period.

Most Linux distros include numerous text/document/office editors. Again, SuSE 9.3 ships with OpenOffice, AbiWord, KOffice, a zillion text editors, etc.

Microsoft Windows ships with Microsoft Notepad and Microsoft Wordpad. No office suite is included, and the one recommended is (no surprise) Microsoft Office.

The reason why nobody cries foul about distros shipping AppX is because there's generally AppY and AppZ bundled with it too. That's not to say that Microsoft should have to ship RealPlayer, or Mozilla, or whatever. It just explains why those used to modern Linux distros often feel that Microsoft is rather limiting in its offerings.

Re:Oh, great

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

OS X includes iTunes, and nobody complains about that. Most Linux distros include XMMS, and nobody cries.

The makers of those OS's don't have monopolies. Sheesh, how can there be so many people on Slashdot that don't understand the legal or economic difference between bundling products and bundling products with a monopolized product?

They lost a market they created due to poor management and bad software.

Yup, Real did a lot of crap that I, as a customer did not like. The question is, did they do those things out of desperation because they were being driven out of business by anti-competative actions? We will never know the answer to that, nor what would have happened if the market had been allowed to decide. Instead we have to deal with what MS has given us. We don't let armed robbers go because they robbed a jaywalker. The problem is these settlements don't work either. Instead of MS being properly punished and a forced change in it's behavior, we get financial settlements where they pay off the victims with money gained from their crimes against other victims. Guess who is really paying. MS's customers.

Re:Oh, great

[m50d]

OS X includes iTunes, and nobody complains about that.

In case you didn't notice, Apple could eat dead babies and still get love and justifications from the slashdot crowd.

Most Linux distros include XMMS, and nobody cries.

Firstly, most of them include a variety of players, often including realplayer. Secondly, none of them is trying to make money off their streaming server.

RealNetworks has done more damage to themselves than anyone else could, through the overpromotion of unstable software, with annoying ads, and 192352398235 different taskbar crapplets that nobody wants.

Nevertheless, MS did a lot of damage to them. Look at an "average joe"'s desktop machine for proof that unstable software with annoying ads and horrible taskbar applets can succeed enormously.

After most streaming sources went to either streaming MP3 or WMA, Real pretty much died.

Remind me when that happened? I've yet to see a site that doesn't at least offer real as an option for streaming videos, and for music if it supports wma it will almost certainly support real.

They lost a market they created due to poor management and bad software. Nobody cares about them anymore, and frankly, I wish they'd just get bought or disappear alltogether.

The market is still there. They're the only people even offering a client for Linux. They've learnt from their mistakes, I know a lot of people will never forgive them for the travesty that was realplayer 8 but the modern player is actually pretty good, certainly compared to the alternatives. And no matter how bad you think they are, they deserve justice when they are wronged like anyone else.

Damn

[squoozer]

I don't know who to hate most Real or MS. Why can't we lobby for a new law that allows for both parties to lose.

Re:Damn

[Eccles]

No, in that case, the lawyers win.

Habitual offender?

[hackstraw]

If I speed down the road, but not too bad I get a fine.

If I speed down the road going too fast, I have to go to court, potential of jail time, fines, etc.

If I continue to do these things over and over again, I'm labeled as a habitual offender and have other court fun to go through.

Microsoft on the other hand just has to keep doing what they are doing and paying fines and now doing "community service" by putting advertisements for a competitor on their websites (which I think is wrong).

Personally, I would prefer just to be in the fine department for my behavior. Where do I get these privileges?

Dueling Slashdot articles

[RobertB-DC]

A bit of Slashdot man-behind-the-curtain trivia. Before this article went live, subscribers saw it on the front page. They also saw this article: Real Wins Against Microsoft, posted by CmdrTaco himself. The Zonk version won out, and the CmdrTaco story became one of my "Ghosts of Slashdot".

Can you imagine the flames if both articles had gone live? Back-to-back dupes aren't unknown, but there's usually at least a few minutes between them :)

Funny article about RealPlayer

[digitaldc]

http://jogin.com/weblog/archives/2004/02/29/real_o bnoxious

"Unfortunately, playing video streams is only a very small aspect of what Real Player does; Real Player, most prominently, is a small bastard with inferiority complex and delusions of grandeur, not too different from Napoleon. Although Real Player's task is simple and limited to a certain timeframe, Real Player defaults to running at all times, whether its limited functionality is needed or not, and claims a seat for itself in the throne commonly called the systray.
When you install Real Player, you can either choose an express install, or custom install. If you pick express install, Real Player simply installs itself with every option and feature turned on. If you choose the custom install, the process is a blend between an installer and a Pokemon-like game of gotta-uncheck-all-checkboxes."

couldn't have said it better

Last I checked

[kinglink]

Real media played about as unfairly as Microsoft. If I remember right once something is put as a RM, it's as safe as a PDF, you can share it but you can't copy it easily (yes I know there's ways to copy anything but there's no converter from RM to change it back to a AVI from real, and most out there are hack jobs, that the DMCA would be able to stop)

Even Apple has offered a Movie convert from Mov to AVI but I still don't know if Real offers the same. And that just makes the format almost worthless.

In addition Real's software has been pretty shoddy for a long time, I remember about ten years ago, about the only reason people still used it then was that there was no other option when stuff was in the format. Now we have many options on what to put it into, I don't see many RMs around except for feeds, (which is what they excel at). Perhaps their problems arn't from Microsoft but from their lack of quality for so long.

XP bundles

[MoogMan]

Oh god... PLEASE DONT bundle Real Player with XP, that would be the worst possible outcome.

Relax, it's only a joke.

Real Player

[gregbains]

Thanks to the BBC using Real Player for it's streaming media I have Real Player installed, but also thanks to the license fee for the BBC I get Real Player sans everything else for free, so no ads, no other crappy software, just real player. Still not great, and I'd prefer something else, but it's better than download Real Player from real.com as the basic edition

Why can't we just let MS choke Real to death?

[AFCArchvile]

Oh, GREAT. If there was one piece of software that I wanted to see starved off by Microsoft's monopoly, it was RealPlayer. I don't like how Windows Media Player 8/9/10 promotes DRM, installs a DRM service in every Windows XP computer (mspmspsv.exe), and may potentially install more DRMware at the driver or kernel level, but Real is no better. Their software is harder to install, and more bloated and cumbersome than Windows Media Player 9. Their software uses an even worse "web portal" interface than WMP, and performs worse in erratic stream playback than WMP. And their RealOne player is one of the most invasive pieces of software when installed. It's basically spyware and malware.

From what I've seen, support for streaming media is heading away from Real and toward Windows Media merely because all the computers with Windows XP preinstalled can play WM files already, as opposed to having to download and run the Real installer. The fact that many media sites already have to deal with enterprise MS software licensing may have something else to do with it. Despite being an ISO standard and natively streamable, MPEG 4 has been plagued by the codec mess (mostly Microsoft's fault) four years ago. There is no single "MPEG 4" codec; instead, there's Microsoft's MPEG 4, DivX, XviD, QuickTime, blah, blah, blah. Users are turned away due to the sheer number of codecs they have to download just to view one video. The newest "universal" MPEG format is still MPEG 2, and it doesn't get the compression that many people need to make video sizes or bandwidths palatable to the customers.

And so now, in the next version of Windows, we'll all have RealONE bundled in, but hopefully with less access violations and bluescreens than the program delivers now. And, hopefully, with a more consumer-friendly and less surreptitious frontend. I'd rather watch Microsoft choke Real to death with WMP; despite the DRM and Microsoft-coded bizarreness, Real's software is worse.

Re:Why can't we just let MS choke Real to death?

[evilviper]

I don't like how Windows Media Player 8/9/10 promotes DRM, installs a DRM service in every Windows XP computer (mspmspsv.exe), and may potentially install more DRMware at the driver or kernel level, but Real is no better.

What? Real doesn't force DRM down your throat at all. Let alone at every turn like Microsoft. How is that not better?

Their software is harder to install, and more bloated and cumbersome than Windows Media Player 9.

Yes, it's harder to install because Real isn't Microsoft. Microsoft uses their monopoly to bundle their media player with the OS, and use Windows Update to install updates to the media player. Something Real can't possibly do. Hence the lawsuit for Microsoft abusing their monopoly.

As for bloat, you're just completely wrong. WMP9/10 eat up huge ammounts of resources for no good reason. It may load-up quickly because there's no way to disable it's built-in "quick launch" feature, unlike Real.

And their RealOne player is one of the most invasive pieces of software when installed.

How many years ago was RealOne discontinued? Have you really never used anything since? The Helix player has been a monumental improvement over their old players.

There is no single "MPEG 4" codec; instead, there's Microsoft's MPEG 4, DivX, XviD, QuickTime, blah, blah, blah.

This is ridiculous. Any MPEG-4 codec can playback files created with any other. The old problem has been the various fourccs, but any remotely recent version of Divx/Xvid will just simply play them all. Quicktime's and Microsoft's are slightly different only because of the container, not because of the codec. Try playing MP3 in an ASF/MOV container and see how compatible MP3 is...

Besides, it really, really doesn't matter that there are lots of different things called MPEG-4 that are slighty different. Why should it? Quicktime plays back quicktime files. WMP plays back WMP files. What codecs they are using don't matter at all.

I would also just like to congratulate you for managing to get a completely uninformative, uninsightful post modded up to +5.

Hot off the presses!

[Anonymous Coward]

In other news, descendants of Attila the Hun are on the verge of a $5billion settlement with Microsoft in which they accuse the company of lifting its business practices from their ancestor's playbook.

Amazing Apple Zealots

[Anonymous Coward]

A story about Real and we already have 3 Apple worship posts.

Something Apple phans may not know: Real supported Linux when nobody else did. Only windows/apple people seem to bitch about Real.

MP3 and Real was all we had on Linux. Somebody supported Linux when somebody else was taking subsidies from Microsoft.

Re:Amazing Apple Zealots

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Something Apple phans may not know: Real supported Linux when nobody else did. Only windows/apple people seem to bitch about Real.

I did not know there were such things as windows/apple people. Personally I use OS X, Windows, Linux and other OS's on a daily basis, but I can certainly understand disliking Real. Any company that ships malware with their products is deserving of ridicule, even if they don't port that malware to all the OS's they support.

Real Alternative to "real" player

[TinBromide]

http://www.videohelp.com/tools?tool=Real_Alternati ve [videohelp.com] it works with media player classic for playing real streams. I haven't fired it up on my new hard drive yet, but it worked (hid the buffering message, but i suspect it may have been at 33%)

Correction : Consumers are paying REAL 750 Million

[Shivetya]

It really should read that consumers are paying Real 750 million dollars. Microsoft isn't going anywhere, hence everyone who buys a preloaded PC or uses services of someone who did will indirectly pay this fine.

Most fines against businesses simply move money from one businesses pocket to another or to the government. The consumer never sees any of it back. Unless a company is driven under by penalty for their actions there is no real loss. One set of shareholders sees a smaller return compared to another. Those shareholders are probably the only "real" people affected directly by the exchange.

It does look like a feeding frenzy at Microsoft's expense. Most of their competitors failed because of inferior programs. Netscaped sucked for most the 4.xx series and Real has been horrid bloatware/adware for God knows how long.

Alternative

[xlsior]

At least there's always RealAlternative to play Real video, using Mediaplayer Classic... No questionable taskbar junk, no shady installer, no RealPlayer. You'll never look back.

The EU should also drop that anti-trust charge

[FlorianMueller]

I've fought against Microsoft on the software patent front, and I'm now trying to win Europe's premier political award so that the Microsoft-sponsored prize money hopefully goes to an anti-patent NGO (voting recommendations here). I know that Microsoft has a history of turning one monopoly into the next.

However, I really think the EU made itself ridiculous by ordering Microsoft to ship an alternative version of Windows without the Media Player. Microsoft created that "Windows Reduced Media Edition" (a name that doesn't quite suggest you should buy it) and sold it at the same price (!) as Windows with the Media Player. Obviously they didn't do anything to generate demand for that particular version. So what's the point in all of that? It just became a matter of principle for some bEUrocrats.

Moreover, the EU Commission lacks a consistent strategy for the software market. On the one hand, they start those anti-trust proceedings and believe they make the market more competitive (which the "Windows Reduced Media Edition" obviously didn't). On the other hand, the EU Commission was a driving force behind that EU software patent directive. And now the EU Commission even wants to retry and legalize software patents in Europe as a side effect of a so-called "community patent regulation":
ZDNet UK: EC slipping software patents "through backdoor"
TheInquirer.net: EU attempts to intro software patents by the back door

That makes no sense to me. A bundling of Windows with the Media Player isn't even 1% as bad as patents on multimedia data formats. The bundling may affect market share over time and it may make consumers less likely to choose another software for playing digital media, but patents constitute monopolies from day one and potentially eliminate all choice.

Re:Correction : Consumers are paying REAL 750 Mill

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

It does look like a feeding frenzy at Microsoft's expense. Most of their competitors failed because of inferior programs.

Well, if MS wants to compete fairly, they can easily avoid these problems in future simply by offering these programs as separate purchases without discounts for bundling them together. Better yet, they could spin off their applications divisions and bid alongside Real, Mozilla, Apple, and Sun for programs to be included on OEM PCs. If MS is not willing to play fair, then customers suffer and MS will keep losing these big settlements.

For Once...

[rising_hope]

However unethical M$FT might have been, for once I wish they'd one. Real screwed themselves over, as far as I'm concerned. Their products have always come accross as second rate, full of ads, annoying popups, bundeled with crap I didn't want/need. $750 million to Real means it's just going to take longer for them to crumble. Maybe if they can start developing decent software, I might consider using them again - maybe. I've HATED real player since at least version 7 or so. The only thing I can say positive about the company is that they package their player on a wide range of platforms, including Linux (albeit out of date). I, for one, will be happy to see the day when Real goes out of business, once and for all.

Stop modding this tripe insightful

[m50d]

It really should read that consumers are paying Real 750 million dollars. Microsoft isn't going anywhere, hence everyone who buys a preloaded PC or uses services of someone who did will indirectly pay this fine.

Consumers will not be paying any more. Why? Because MS is already charging them as much as it can. The money will come out of MS's profits

Unless a company is driven under by penalty for their actions there is no real loss.

Just like unless a person is driven bankrupt by their fines for criminal actions there is no real loss.

One set of shareholders sees a smaller return compared to another. Those shareholders are probably the only "real" people affected directly by the exchange.

And that's as it should be. They are the people who ultimately control the corporation. Some of them will invest elsewhere instead. MS stocks go down. To a company, its stock is its life.

Real has been horrid bloatware/adware for God knows how long.

Real was horrid bloatware and now isn't, really. Try it.

Re:Stop modding this tripe insightful

[oddfox]

I have to agree, I even installed the RealPlayer 10 release that's available for Linux here in Gentoo and it's quite a nice little app. I don't like it enough to have it replace my Beep Media Player, XMMS or amaroK as far as my music collection is concerned, but for videos it may be a nice departure from Totem and others like it. For some reason I don't seem to like any media players in Linux except for gmplayer. :)

The (slightly) bigger picture

[zuki]

Although it is definitely arguable that bundling an audio player in the OS is 'monopolistic behavior', one thing does come to mind.

Adding all of those settlement sums up (Sun + Real + Netscape + etc...) the total $$ amount is still very trivial compared to the amount of money they were able to make from offering their version of reality and bundling all of those products in the OS install.

So the moral of the story, - if there is one - is that in business, it sometimes pay handsomely to take calculated risks and get away with what may amount to nothing more than a slap on the wrist. However one wants to hate Micro$oft, it is undeniable that someone there was charting a course that ensured the company's survival and growth through the decade's first half. When studying the ecology of multinational corporate entities in the late 20th Century, this can be seen as quite Darwinian in a sense.....

Z.

Good to hear it

[mcc]

So now that that's dealt with, can the rest of us sue RealPlayer and demand a settlement that they stop sucking?

This made me smile...

[JoostSchuttelaar]

... http://random.hackish.org/albums/Funny/buffering.j pg :)

Re:Here we go again...

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you seen Real's free media player? It's add supported... i dont think it has a true full screen mode (play bar and some other stuff is always surrounding it) and when you close it you get an advertisement.

Are you sure you tried RealPlayer FREE? I use it since about 2 or 3 years ago and I _never_ seen an ad. It sure has full screen mode, while it's called theater mode. There is a play bar and zoom controls on top, but that goes away if you don't move the mouse for a few seconds.

Plus its hard enough just trying to find the free trial download

Aha, free trial != free player. Perhaps you got the wrong download...

Honestly, I can only say good things about the free RealPlayer V10. I see many people shooting on Real, but it seems most of them are talking about Real's old players (I can remember someone telling his experience back in 98...) and never took a peak at recent versions of RealPlayer. Yes, previous versions was a pain in the ass, but that changed a lot since then.

Some features I particulary enjoy:

• universal player. It's good play every formats on a single player
• fullscreen mode on quicktime formats.
• nice music library
• excellent streaming, when using real formats. Fast and smooth.

Luís Brás

obviously Time Warner settled for too low a price

[The Lynxpro]

If crappy Real Player can squeeze out $750 million alone from Microsoft's monopolist/predatory behavior, then obviously Time Warner settled for far less by accepting earlier an equal dollar figure to settle the Netscape case. The damage done to Netscape - and AOL indirectly by the over reliance on IE for Joe Blow's sake - is far more than what Real suffered from.

Real's main problem is with Real itself. Its product, and how it treated its virtual customers, the casual users.

Hmmm...maybe with such sufficient cash reserves, Apple might be tempted to finally sue Real over that nice little DMCA violation it committed last year by cracking Fairplay's DRM. I'd rather see Apple with another $750 million than Real anyday.

Rob said it...Re:Mac/Linux

[redwoodtree]

In the press conference, Rob literally said "We will be releasing Rhapsody to Mac and Linux in the web browser." My mouth about hit the table.

If Real does release that (and it works..which are two big IFs) then they will be the first subscription music service on the Mac. They might actually gain some street cred with the linux/mac crowd and some more mind share of subscription service.

Knowing Real, they'll screw it up.

This just in...

[spywhere]

Kraco, the maker of cheezy one-size-fits all floor mats, will collect a $2.25 billion settlement from the Big 3 automakers for including floor mats with their automobiles.
"Chrysler, Ford, and GM have no right to 'bundle' floor mats with their products," said Ron Popiel IV, president pro tem of Kraco Enterprises Inc. "This is clearly an abuse of their market position to consolidate their monopoly on floor mats."

In a related story, Pioneer, Blaupunkt and Kenwood have announced plans to jointly sue the automakers for providing radios with their vehicles.