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Andy Tanenbaum Releases Minix 3
Guillaume Pierre writes "Andy Tanenbaum announced the availability of the next version of the Minix operating
system. "MINIX 3 is a new open-source operating system
designed to be highly reliable and secure. This new OS is extremely small, with the part that runs in kernel mode under 4000 lines of executable code. The parts that run in user mode are divided into small modules, well insulated from one another. For example, each device driver runs as a separate user-mode process so a bug in a driver (by far the biggest source of bugs in any operating system), cannot bring down the entire OS. In fact, most of the time when a driver crashes it is automatically replaced without requiring any user intervention, without requiring rebooting, and without affecting running programs. These features, the tiny amount of kernel code, and other aspects greatly enhance system reliability."In case anyone wonders: yes, he still thinks that
micro-kernels
are more reliable than monolithic kernels ;-) Disclaimer: I am the chief architect of Globule, the experimental content-distribution network used to host www.minix3.org."
And you can try it out on your current PC - the download is a live-cd!
Now we can all switch over from Linux, at least until Hurd ships.
*pummeling ensues*
GNU/Hurd!! I meant GNU/Hurd!!!
While I could go into a long story here about the relative merits of the two designs, suffice it to say that among the people who actually design operating systems, the debate is essentially over. Microkernels have won.
In retrospect that might have been a bit overconfident.
Honest question, is Minix compatable with Linux or something? Or do they just sound the same by coincidence? Or is it more like your BSD's in comparision to Linux?
Tannenbaum's home page:
http://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/
Yes, it's the same guy who wrote the book for your networking course.
I just want to thank you, Andy, for your decades of effort towards advancing the field of computing. Your contributions have been much appreciated. After all, if it were not for Minix we would not have Linux today. Thanks, Andy!
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
Um, how relevant is Minix these days? Is it honestly intended to be used on a PC or is it aimed squarely at embedded devices? I'll admit, I really enjoyed Minix back in the old days, on a single 360k on an 8088.. It was quite an amazing trick. But NOW?
Each processor would proceed sequentially as if it had been better for them not to rise against Saul.
In case you don't know, Andy was the professor who originally suggested to Linus that he create a kernel, and then provided all the support and positive encouragement that would obviously be needed to successfully complete such an undertaking. He knew from the outset that Linux was going to be a massive hit. He is truely one of Computer Science's great visionaries.
That'd be cool to give this a bash with our shiny new VMWare players!
... does it run on Linux?
(points the right pinky finger to the lip and laughs hysterically)
Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
Linus would have deserved that "F" in operating system design, but he wasn't writing his kernel to get grades on a computer course. If he had been then he probably wouldn't have written a crude, monolithic kernel that was totally unportable. Apart from the crudity of it, those were his explicit goals - to write a monolithic kernel that would run optimally on his 80386. (Bear in mind that the Linux kernel we know today is pretty far removed from that early version in design and implementation).
As for AT, he's a very smart guy. He writes books on operating system deign and networking that clearly describe quite complex topics. Even if you don't like the idea of microkernels, the "Operating Systems ..." book that describes the Minix kernel is an excellent read.
Please don't, as this is also a nice gathering tool for measuring the slashdot effect and see if our replicated web server is holding out. We are using a dozen machines over the world to host the content.
A couple of years ago, I was doing some hacking with the eCos embedded operating system and decided that I wanted to load data off the floppy before running the application, and so needed a floppy driver. Of course, I looked at Linux and BSD systems first, but they had big, hairy drivers. To be fair this is true partially because they try and support all kinds of weird hardware, but they also contain calls into lots of other parts of the system. On a whim, I got out my minix book, looked at the source code, and found the port was a lot easier, and finished it up in a few days (at least reading, I didn't need to write). In any case, the results are here:
"Scivoli": http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/ecos.html
and an article (in Italian): http://www.dedasys.com/articles/ecos.html
http://www.welton.it/davidw/
.. so does it finally have a multithreaded filesystem?
"yes, he still thinks that micro-kernels are more reliable than monolithic kernels ;"
Does anybody dispute this?
AFAIK reliability is not the main pressing benefit of a monolithic kernel design so much as being able to scramble all over the internal structs of other kernel modules without needing a context switch, which can be very helpful and quick.
Sam
blog.sam.liddicott.com
I have a number of old laptops lying around. It would be nice to use them for embedded systems. Linux is too big to fit. I guess Minix has too few drivers. What to do? Any recommendations?
Kim0
On the news page it states that 'The port of X Windows is coming along well.'
Which implementation of X is it that is being ported? I would hope that it is X.org, and at least the 6.8.2 release.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
"This Guy"
Is a TEACHER
Is an AUTHOR
Ia a HACKER
Now shut the $^#( up before I hunt you down and stuff that minix formatted floppy up your A$$.
Tanenbaum rightly criticized Linus for creating a big monolithic operating system kernel, but at least Linus was copying something that was successful and he made it a success himself.
But, geez, how often do microkernels have to fail before Tanenbaum will admit that there must be something fundamentally wrong with his approach, too? Microkernels attempt to address the right problem (kernel fault isolation), just in such an idiotic way that they keep failing in the real world. But instead of a detailed criticial analysis of previous failures, Tanenbaum and Herder just go on merrily implementing Minix3, apparently on the assumption that all previous failures of microkernels were just due to programmer incompetence, an incompetence that they themselves naturally don't suffer from.
Both Linux-style monolithic kernels and Tanenbaum-style microkernels are dead ends. But at least Linux gets the job done more or less in the short term. In the long term, we'll probably have to wait for dinosaurs like Tanenbaum to die out before a new generation of computer science students can approach the problem of operating system design with a fresh perspective.
I was "there" when Andy and Linus had their first "ding dong". I was doing an OS/Design undergraduate (300 level) course at the time using the AT book and MINIX as the tool through which we had to implement changes to the scheduler. The book was excellent, MINIX was pretty cool but more importantly it was an educational tool to allow us to delve into the guts of an operating system and play around with it. It was so accessible and relatively easy to do, certainly compared to anything else available at the time.
;-)
Cruising the newsgroups was pretty much the done thing at the time and comp.os.minux was pretty high on my list for obvious reasons. Saw this stuff happening at the time and, knowing that AST was always pretty direct was entertained by the whole flame war thing. Anyway my point is that AST saw MINIX as a OS theory educational tool and Linus saw it as too defective to be even that and as such Linux was better. Funny, I agree with them both, kinda. I could never have kernel hacked Linux like I did MINIX at the time and MINIX could never have become my primary desktop at home like it is now. I guess they were just talking at crossed purposes even then. Pretty much standard flamewar
"The first thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is stop digging."
See? It's Minix 3 already, while Linux is still in 2.x! ;)
Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
Not only that, there is also a VMware image!
-- (:> jms cs.vu.nl (_) --"---
His bio so in terms of why he gets to grade Linux as an F (IMO he was right, its improved since but it was poor, SMP, size of kernel, modularity, the only advantage was that NT and Windows scored a "Not Classified") its because he managed to understand Operating system design to such a level that his work was the BASIS from which Linus was "inspired".
Minix and his work are key reference works in writing pretty much any OS and his work in computer networking and distribution in paticular are top notch. His stuff is very much NOT Ivory Tower (I speak as someone who has had to do bespoke OS work) and very practical way to build operating systems and overcome networking challenges. Heard of the OSI model for networking? Most of the rest of us have heard of it thanks to Andy's work, because we couldn't afford the official reference from ANSI/ISO.
Out of interest what is you have done?
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
This makes it, as far as I know, the only completely BSD licensed Unix-like operating system in the world. Even the big BSDs can't claim that, as they all rely on gcc.
I was in on the Minix beta testing. It's actually extremely impressive. It's quite minimalist; most of the shell commands are pared down to their bare minimum --- for example, tar doesn't support the j or z flags --- and it tends towards SysV rather than BSD with things like options to ps. It runs happily on a 4MB 486 with 1GB of hard drive, with no virtual memory, and will contentedly churn through a complete rebuild without any trouble whatsoever. Slackware users will probably like it.
Driver support isn't particularly great; apart from the usual communications port drivers, there's a small selection of supported network cards, a FDD driver, an IDE-ATA driver that supports CDROMs, and a BIOS hard disk driver for when you're using SCSI or USB or some other exotic storage. The VFS only supports a single filesystem, MinixFS (surprise, suprise!) but allows you multiple mountpoints. In order to read CDs or DOS floppies you need external commands.
There's no GUI, of course.
As a test, as part of the beta program, I did manage to get ipkg working on it. This required a fair bit of hacking, mostly due to ipkg assuming it was running on a gcc/Linux system, but it did work, and I found myself able to construct and install .ipk packages --- rather impressive. Now the real thing's been released, I need to revisit it.
Oh, yeah, it has one of the nicest boot loaders I've ever seen --- it's programmable!
But how mature and how usable this OS is?
What about software for Minix?
On website there is info about packages - gcc, vim/emacs, old Python, no ncurses, no X... What can I install (by compiling) on Minix and what is not possible and why?
http://www.mklinux.org/
Not sure how current it is, and it might be for 68000-based CPUs if I'm not confusing it with another project.
For example, each device driver runs as a separate user-mode process so a bug in a driver (by far the biggest source of bugs in any operating system), cannot bring down the entire OS. In fact, most of the time when a driver crashes it is automatically replaced without requiring any user intervention, without requiring rebooting, and without affecting running programs.
This is all well and good until the crashing device driver locks the system bus or grams an NMI etc. And what if the device driver in qestion is the one accessing the disk? How does the microkernel recover from that one when it can't access the drive the device driver is sitting upon?
I can see where his thought processes are coming from, but I still think he lives in Computer Science Heaven, I'm afraid, where all hardware is mathematically perfect and I/O never happens (as it's not mathematically provable).
In the real world device drivers hardly ever crash the system 'cos they're kernel mode, they crash it because the hard-hang the system or denigh the kernel the resources to dig itself out of the hole. Neither of these change by moving the code into user space.
Agrajag: "Oh no, not again!"
I have done my share of kernel programming and I have always thought that it is pretty horrible that simple device driver bugs can take down the system. Almost all of Windows' Blue Screens are from bad third party drivers. Almost all of the oopses I have seen on linux are from device drivers for extra hardware (I mean drivers not for core common O/S features). On linux device driver debug still seems to be horrible; on Windows it is considerably better but still not as good as application debug.
With common user systems as cheap and fast as they are now, do user mode device drivers make sense? Is the performance worth giving up for the stability? Check out Microsoft's User-mode Driver Framework approach. Here is an old linux journal article on the subject. Does anyone know of other interesting examples of user mode device drivers on any operating systems?
-- soldack
I didn't find a tarball of source code, just the ISO image. When I loopback-mount the ISO image, I don't find anywhere near 80M of stuff. Is the source on the ISO image?
Actually, you could modify it. You just couldn't distribute modified versions of it. You could, however, distribute patches against the original code as much as you wanted.
As to the reason for this, Andy T. had wanted to make the source widely available, but at that time (1990) there wasn't wide-spread access to the Internet (you had to be at a university that was on it, which many weren't, or you had to work for at a government shop). So the only choice was to have it published in the traditional maner (in this case, through Prentice Hall). But the publisher's at that time would only publish something if, and only if, they were exclusive. Andy fought hard to even get the publisher to allow "shadow copies" of the software (i.e., an instructor could give out copies to his students, or you could give out up to around 5 copies from a purchased copy).
If the Internet was more in full swing at the time, where you didn't need a traditional publisher, then I'm sure that things would have been different.
I agree 100%. And there has been excellent prior work in that area, with fault isolation in single-address space kernels; experiments suggest that single-address space approaches are significantly faster. And it doesn't even have to be Java or C#; languages like Modula-3 or Object Pascal are far safer than C and can get by with a tiny runtime. Heck, even consistent use of C++ for writing kernels would be better than what people are doing now, despite the numerous problems that C++ has.
It is just astounding to me that while anybody else would be laughed at if they tried to write a modern, complex application in ANSI C, operating system designers are somehow considered special, as if concepts like "abstraction", "error handling", and "runtime safety" didn't matter for kernels that are millions of lines big.
Of course he does. Everyone does. The old argument between Linus and Andy was never about reliability. It was about *practicality* and *efficiency*. Microkernels usually incur a lot of overhead. Andy thought the overhead was worth it; Linus didn't.
Well, since nobody else has posted a very informative answer...
Linux is based on MINIX. It was built on MINIX, using MINIX. It started off as Linus's weekend hack to build a 386-specific replacement kernel, so he could have MINIX with pre-emptive multi-tasking and memory protection. Andy Tanenbaum didn't want to make MINIX 386-specific because, like the NetBSD and Debian folks, he was trying to make something that would be portable to lots of different hardware. (Like the Atari ST I was running it on.)
Then there was the big flamewar over monolithic kernels vs modular microkernels. Linus went off in a huff and turned Linux into a complete OS by ripping out all the MINIX and adding all the GNU stuff instead. Then over the years he introduced a modular kernel and made it portable to multiple architectures, basically admitting he was wrong but never saying so.
At that point, Linux started to become usable as an OS. And in the mean time, MINIX had been killed by toxic licensing policies of the copyright owner (not Andy Tanenbaum). That, and the x86 architecture had expanded to 90% of the market. So, we arrived at the situation we have today, where MINIX is largely forgotten, and we have a MINIX-like Linux with all the mindshare.
And now, ironically, Andy Tanenbaum has made MINIX 3 only run on the x86. So perhaps he and Linus can now both admit they were wrong in major respects, and make friends?
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
All else equal, the faster code is better.
Sure, but all things are not equal, and an improvement that obviously improves performance, often doesn't. OS programming isn't quite the same as pure user-level programming, so optimizations aren't so clear-cut.
People often assume that monolithic kernels are faster than properly designed microkernels due to less supervisor-user context switching, but this often isn't the largest cost in modern systems. For instance, monolithic kernels can't/don't schedule their interrupt handling through the common scheduler, so they're nearly impossible to use for realtime.
Reliability, flexibility and security is also dramatically improved in decomposed microkernel designs, so really, suffering a 5-10% performance penalty to gain an extra few 9's in reliability (99.99% uptime as opposed to 99%) is often worth it IMO.
Higher Logics: where programming meets science.
Where does it list the hardware it supports? I'm not talking about CPU or HD or CD. I'm talking about network card, video card, DVD, printer, etc. In my opinion the biggest problem with UNIX/LINUX/MINIX type OS's is the problem of hardware support. Since most hardware shops don't have the resources to create and test drivers for multiple OS's, they concentrate on Windows and let someone else come up with drivers for other OS's. That leaves the UNIX/LINUX/MINIX type OS's constantly behind the curve since they have to have someone create drivers after the hardware is released and by the time the driver is tested and stable, the hardware is obsolete.
16MB ram in the requirements... all I can say is WOW.
This is supposed to be a simple OS, much simpler than the first version of Linux.
ucLinux can run on 1MB. Older versions can be trimmed enough to run in 200kb even but thats pushing it. Minix now requires 16MB!!! Thats more than ANY BSD out there.
I was interested in running it on MCUs with small ram and flash. Trimming down uCLinux to the extreme uses 200kb of ram by the kernel and one shell. eCos requires under 64kb for simple compilations. eCos is POSIX for the most part, but theres hardly any schedulers in there, and no real filesystem drivers or calls.
Minix is a full OS, but being that simple, I expected the kernel to fit in 64kb ram. I guess I'll use NetBSD as a simpler OS to study before graduating on to Minix 3.
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
Actually, the bigger problem with microkernel is debugging. When passing messages around inside an OS, there is a potential for lots of race states and the like. The trick to microkernel is getting the messages to run around as fast as possible without adding synchronization points. Every synchronization point slows the system a little, but makes the system a little more stable. Once you've optimized the system for performance, and small change to any module the kernel talks to can throw the whole thing out of balance, and you need to go back and debug the race states and retune the code.
In short, a kernel can be fast, flexible, or reliable. You can have two, but it is really difficult to have three. Macro-kernels are generally fast and reliable. Micro-kernels can be fast and flexible, flexible and reliable, but rarely are they fast and reliable.
Disclaimer: I am the chief architect of Globule, the experimental content-distribution network used to host www.minix3.org.
Translation: "Please load-test my network."
The only thing worse than an Amiga zealot is an anti-Amiga zealot.
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