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The H-1B Swindle
An anonymous reader writes "A new study shows that companies hire foreign workers for cheap labor, not skill." From the article:"When you look at computer job titles by state, California has one of the biggest differentials between OES salaries and H-1B salaries. The average salary for a programmer in California is $73,960, according to the OES. The average salary paid to an H-1B visa worker for the same job is $53,387; a difference of $20,573 ... H-1B visa workers were also concentrated at the bottom end of the wage scale, with the majority of H-1B visa workers in the 10-24 percentile range. 'That means the largest concentration of H-1B workers make less than [the] highest 75 percent of the U.S. wage earners,' the report notes. "
Anyone who has been in the computer industry for more than a few months knows this. Its prevalent everywhere. Don't let them say "there aren't enough engineers to go around", thats pure horse hockey. HIB workers arre cheaper, plain and simple.
A new study shows that companies hire foreign workers for cheap labor, not skill.
I'm curious, did anyone at all believe otherwise?
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Working since 2000 to bring you news of how badly programmers are treated!
Still, in reality, is this any different than Norm Matloff's reports saying exactly the same thing over the past 5 years? And does anybody REALLY have any doubt that guest worker programs are just ways to lower wages in a given industry?
The exact same method was used to break up the California Agriculture Worker's Union back in the 1970s- and will continue to be used.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
I'm not sure how the assertion that these workers are less skilled is borne out here. This is just more globalization fallout. Apparently, programming skills are not as precious as we would all like to think; there are many workers in China and India that will work for less than half of what we make here; this is the same thing that has happened in other industries historically. The only way to save our skins is to continue to provide more value or agree to work for less. Programming that can be shifted overseas effectively is going to go there and no amount of complaining will do it. I say it's better to attract and hire these people here in America and let them build industries here than to push them out and artificially fix wages high here. Protectionism will not work.
Currently hooked on AMP
Having RTFA I wonder how much of the "Duh this has to be true" concept effected their research. They seem to focus mostly on jobs title vs. looking at years of experience or education vs. pay. I think there would be more value in comparing people with the same relative experience who got their final degree be it BS, MS, or PHD from the same school to each other before saying.
"Abuse is by far more common than legitimate use,"
PS: This might be true but I think this has more to do with H1B's being less mobile as far as switching jobs than outright abuse vs. US citizens.
Is this really caused by the industry, or by the H1b workers themselves? I think many H1b workers are less aggressive in increasing their salaries than native Americans (not a reference to First Nations). Some of the impediments that kept H1b workers in their places afraid to lose their jobs were removed years ago. The main one of these being the ability to switch jobs immediately and then apply for a new H1b with the new employer. I've been an H1b and was earning more than the average in the TFA back in 2000 in Colorado. Part of the reason I had a good salary was due to a work colleagues going and demanding (without my knowledge) that I have a higher salary. My cultural background hadn't prepared me to fight for my salary in this way, which is required in the US. On top of that, I was much more forthcoming and stubborn about my salary than many of my other H1b work colleagues from other cultures.
Some might argue that the industry is taking advantage of H1b worker's cultures to keep their salaries low. I think it's more the other way around. This subject seems to garner quite a lot of hysteria and sensationalism and is a very good tool for politicians and certain media companies who claim to report news to further their own agendas.
BTW, I'm no longer an H1b. I moved to Canada, a country that is more accepting of immigrants.
Other issue is that it does not compare apples to apples: most H1b are non-managerial positions with relatively low experience, while national average includes middle managers. One need to compare H1B to the people in the same position.
And it looks like reducing numbers of H1Bs does wonders to the IT jobs retention in U.S. indeed. Not.
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
No kidding it's a swindle. That's the whole thing that pisses me off about it! I have no problem in general with some American losing their tech job in favor of some non-American gaining a tech job. What I have a problem with is that what really happens is an American loses their well paying tech job, some non-American gains a usually well paying job by their standards but still vastly less than what it replaced, and then the executives give themselves phat bonuses for saving money.
:)
They have no incentive to pay them well. As always, they will pay only the absolute minimum necessary to get someone to do the job, and yes considerations like "quality" are fortunate if they are considered at all like all non-bean-countable aspects of business. The result is more money concentrated in the hands of the few, fewer well-paying jobs for skilled people in this country, and oh yeah a little bit different distribution of what wealth remains. Gutting the American middle class for fun and profit!
And if the ones getting those not-so-bad paying jobs in India think they aren't going to be next when the greedy whores realize that someone in China will work for a third of what the Indian does, well, they'd be exactly like we were not so long ago.
I wish there was some reasonable way to cap the salary of executives to, say, 20x what their average employee makes, including outsourced/contracted work (which is part of what makes this seem impractical to me). Cap their bonuses and other compensation similarly. Then you'd stop seeing employers struggling to pay their employees less and less, they'd have an incentive to pay them more. Since they'd be paying more for employees, you might see them caring more about quality that they're getting for their money no matter where they are hiring from.
The enemies of Democracy are
The article and referenced study is useless. It doesn't account for permit fees and the cost of regulation compliance, it doesn't control for the employee's age/experience/skills. It tries to generalize across huge categories of workers (programmer/analyst?) that in reality vary wildly.
/. in order to get traffic and notice. Make sure your conclusion is in line with /. reader's financial interests.
The theory that "funny-named people who speak with an accent tend to have a harder time getting hired for as much money" is as equally sound of a conclusion as this guy's conclusion. At least my theory could actually be proved if you used better information in the study. It's a lot harder to prove a mind-reading result with financial data, as opposed to say, a controlled survey of the people who have hired H1-B workers.
The article can be summed up as:
1. Add up some random salary facts
2. Ignore any major controls for those facts
3. Draw completely irrelevent conclusion (He makes a socialogical conclusion reading employers minds based on financial data.)
4. Post a commentary to
4. ????
5. Profit!
The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
Always remember, it's only illegal if you don't have the money to buy a politician.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Do you really think Americans should receive no preference in getting American jobs? If your vision is realized, then countries are just meta-corporations with no alleigence to their own citizens. In that case, do you think anybody will be dumb enough to join the military in their defense?
There are two things that you actually have the power to do to help yourself:
Complain if you like, but above all, act.
Mike (trying to practice what he preaches)
"Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
If the companies are using the H1B workers to pay them $20,000/yr less, do you think they'll give them large raises. What if they don't? The H1B code monkeys aren't going anywhere, they'll work for $30,000/yr, it is still better than what they get in their home country. Most of them will underestimate the living expenses and will think they are getting a killer deal. It is like me, when I tell my family in Russia what I make here in America, they are all "ooh"-ing and "aah"-ing like I am some kind of a millionare, they don't know that my car insurance is $200/month and utilites another $150/month and car payments, mortgage, school loans etc etc
This is already subverting the free market by opening a loophole which allows employers to look outside their home market in order to undercut workers in their own market.
It's unethical for two reasons. First, the H1B regulations require that employers pay prevailing market rates for the talent they're importing, which they clearly aren't. Second, it provides a lever to help lower everyone else's salaries, while the executives pocket huge bonuses for dubious reasons.
It's good to use your head, but not as a battering ram.
So if slavery was legal, then it would be OK?
If memory serves, it was legal at one point.
Just because something is legal, does not make it right or best.
Which was my point of my original post:
The 'anything that can be done, should be done' argument should be tempered with some ethics.
Rather than say, "Hey, you're trying to pay less for programmers!" we should be saying "Hey, are we getting paid too much? Are we pricing ourselves out of positions?"
No. Any cheap work that could be done overseas is already being done overseas. The work that's left in the US would stay in the US regardless of what pay programmers demand. So, companies can only reduce the amount they pay in wages by artifically increasing the workforce and reducing the demand for high-skilled workers.
This has nothing to do with "free" trade in labor and everything to do with market manipulation. These companies do not want to deal with the free market as it's currently structured. So, instead of dealing in the free market, they'd rather redefine the labor market in their terms.
These companies would rather have completely open borders in the US where everyone from everywhere could freely enter. We've already heard Bush say exactly that. Labor costs in the US would plummet. So would the standard of living, but companies and the current administration don't actually care. The only reason they don't push that through now is that they've been pounding security for the last four years. Also, the majority US citizens, both Democrats and Republicans, don't want any more foreigners entering the country to take away jobs. If anything, people want the foreigners to leave so we could actually get some work and decent pay raises around here.
vs. looking at years of experience or education vs. pay
Why should an employer look at those two things when job performance should be the primary salary measurement? We just let a unix admin go who had 20+ years of "experience" and a college degree. That means 20+ years of screwing up servers in DC's accross the continental US. Nice guy, but I wouldn't let him touch a PC with a 10 foot pole.
In contrast, I've been in the industry since 94. I have no diplomas (not even high school), but have "the mother-f'ing force" when it comes to working with huge app clusters and complicated enterprise applications.
BBH
To my educational credit, I was a professional cook before getting into computers....
"Do you think these foreign workers sould be entitled to some sort of guaranteed wage minimum, comparable to those holding similar skills that are native to the country?"
Actually yes.
Follow my logic here...
If the intent of H1B is to get talent that simply isn't available locally, then the best way to treat these workers is to give them a green card the moment they're hired. That way, there is no pressure to stay with an employer if they are underpaid. If takes away any incentive to underpay these folks because they'll simply move elsewhere. That protects the H1B and the American worker.
If the intent of the H1B is to get cheaper labor, then these folks are little better than indentured servent filling out time being underpaid for the promise of a green card after 5 years. If that's the intent of the law, then lets be honest about it and stop lying about the lack of local talent.
[BTW: You can tell an ad to prove no local talent exists... its always like this:
WANTED: Senior Oracle DBA (10+ yr) with extensive Java programming skills, and Masters Degree in Mathematics. Salary up to $48K depending on relevant experience.]
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
H1-B's are not supposed to be imported for the lower-tech jobs unless there is a scarcity of native talent for those lower-tech jobs. H1-B's are expected to be as trained, or more so, than their American counterparts. That's what the Benedict Arnold CEO's keep telling us - the supply of US tech talent is lacking. They have to import highly qualified people to continue innovating.
If what you say is true - H1-B's are less skilled - then the author's argument is strengthened.
Most people in the tech market today tend to feel that H1-B's are really being used to decrease salary pressure. If you're qualified but demand $80,000/yr, well they can just hire an H1-B at $60,000/yr. That's not what H1-B's are for.
Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
I agree with you for the most part, but everybody makes mistakes.
On the spelling front, for example, you misspelled the word "pity".
On the grammar front you forgot an "a"; "I work with a couple of American". (Yes, that's with a capital "a", too.)
Lastly, your first sentence would be more proper if it would read "Spelling and Americans ? You must be kidding me!!!" or "Spelling and Americans - you must be kidding me". The form in which you've written it now seems to indicate that you are saying "you must be kidding me" to both Americans and a person who goes by the name of "Spelling".
--
That said - who cares ? I've seen similar errors in letters written directly by CEOs (not passing through their secretaries/etc.) and even in press releases. It *would* be nice to hold everybody to a high standard to help keep it up, but I think it's far too late.