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The H-1B Swindle
An anonymous reader writes "A new study shows that companies hire foreign workers for cheap labor, not skill." From the article:"When you look at computer job titles by state, California has one of the biggest differentials between OES salaries and H-1B salaries. The average salary for a programmer in California is $73,960, according to the OES. The average salary paid to an H-1B visa worker for the same job is $53,387; a difference of $20,573 ... H-1B visa workers were also concentrated at the bottom end of the wage scale, with the majority of H-1B visa workers in the 10-24 percentile range. 'That means the largest concentration of H-1B workers make less than [the] highest 75 percent of the U.S. wage earners,' the report notes. "
Anyone who has been in the computer industry for more than a few months knows this. Its prevalent everywhere. Don't let them say "there aren't enough engineers to go around", thats pure horse hockey. HIB workers arre cheaper, plain and simple.
What's beneath it is probably some hideous unethical, if not illegal, practice of hiring only H-1B people into jobs.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Is anyone suprised by this? ..
My employeer scours the fourth world for masters degrees, sponsors thier visa, then pays them $10/hour and forces them into unpaid overtime. After all, if they complain, the company can just stop sponsoring thier work visa
Unethical? Yes.
Illigal? Not in this state.
-Annonymousguywhodoesntwanttogetfired
Has anyone considered the cost to aquire and hold H1-B1 papers for a overseas worker? What about when the contract is up? The company is responsible to return the worker, who pays for that?
WTF? Over?
A new study shows that companies hire foreign workers for cheap labor, not skill.
I'm curious, did anyone at all believe otherwise?
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Working since 2000 to bring you news of how badly programmers are treated!
Still, in reality, is this any different than Norm Matloff's reports saying exactly the same thing over the past 5 years? And does anybody REALLY have any doubt that guest worker programs are just ways to lower wages in a given industry?
The exact same method was used to break up the California Agriculture Worker's Union back in the 1970s- and will continue to be used.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
I'm not sure how the assertion that these workers are less skilled is borne out here. This is just more globalization fallout. Apparently, programming skills are not as precious as we would all like to think; there are many workers in China and India that will work for less than half of what we make here; this is the same thing that has happened in other industries historically. The only way to save our skins is to continue to provide more value or agree to work for less. Programming that can be shifted overseas effectively is going to go there and no amount of complaining will do it. I say it's better to attract and hire these people here in America and let them build industries here than to push them out and artificially fix wages high here. Protectionism will not work.
Currently hooked on AMP
The Sky is Blue!
Water is Wet!
Companies are about making money!
Having RTFA I wonder how much of the "Duh this has to be true" concept effected their research. They seem to focus mostly on jobs title vs. looking at years of experience or education vs. pay. I think there would be more value in comparing people with the same relative experience who got their final degree be it BS, MS, or PHD from the same school to each other before saying.
"Abuse is by far more common than legitimate use,"
PS: This might be true but I think this has more to do with H1B's being less mobile as far as switching jobs than outright abuse vs. US citizens.
Do you want those people paid 20k less here, where they will spend some of it on cars, food, etc, or do you want them paid 40k less in India/China? It sucks, but about the only thing that stops this race to the bottom is us being better.
We need to invest in schools and teach our kids skills (like how to reason). It's the only realistic way to prevent sliding into mediocrity.
Is this really caused by the industry, or by the H1b workers themselves? I think many H1b workers are less aggressive in increasing their salaries than native Americans (not a reference to First Nations). Some of the impediments that kept H1b workers in their places afraid to lose their jobs were removed years ago. The main one of these being the ability to switch jobs immediately and then apply for a new H1b with the new employer. I've been an H1b and was earning more than the average in the TFA back in 2000 in Colorado. Part of the reason I had a good salary was due to a work colleagues going and demanding (without my knowledge) that I have a higher salary. My cultural background hadn't prepared me to fight for my salary in this way, which is required in the US. On top of that, I was much more forthcoming and stubborn about my salary than many of my other H1b work colleagues from other cultures.
Some might argue that the industry is taking advantage of H1b worker's cultures to keep their salaries low. I think it's more the other way around. This subject seems to garner quite a lot of hysteria and sensationalism and is a very good tool for politicians and certain media companies who claim to report news to further their own agendas.
BTW, I'm no longer an H1b. I moved to Canada, a country that is more accepting of immigrants.
Other issue is that it does not compare apples to apples: most H1b are non-managerial positions with relatively low experience, while national average includes middle managers. One need to compare H1B to the people in the same position.
And it looks like reducing numbers of H1Bs does wonders to the IT jobs retention in U.S. indeed. Not.
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
No kidding it's a swindle. That's the whole thing that pisses me off about it! I have no problem in general with some American losing their tech job in favor of some non-American gaining a tech job. What I have a problem with is that what really happens is an American loses their well paying tech job, some non-American gains a usually well paying job by their standards but still vastly less than what it replaced, and then the executives give themselves phat bonuses for saving money.
:)
They have no incentive to pay them well. As always, they will pay only the absolute minimum necessary to get someone to do the job, and yes considerations like "quality" are fortunate if they are considered at all like all non-bean-countable aspects of business. The result is more money concentrated in the hands of the few, fewer well-paying jobs for skilled people in this country, and oh yeah a little bit different distribution of what wealth remains. Gutting the American middle class for fun and profit!
And if the ones getting those not-so-bad paying jobs in India think they aren't going to be next when the greedy whores realize that someone in China will work for a third of what the Indian does, well, they'd be exactly like we were not so long ago.
I wish there was some reasonable way to cap the salary of executives to, say, 20x what their average employee makes, including outsourced/contracted work (which is part of what makes this seem impractical to me). Cap their bonuses and other compensation similarly. Then you'd stop seeing employers struggling to pay their employees less and less, they'd have an incentive to pay them more. Since they'd be paying more for employees, you might see them caring more about quality that they're getting for their money no matter where they are hiring from.
The enemies of Democracy are
That means the largest concentration of H-1B workers make less than [the] highest 75 percent of the U.S. wage earners
Yet, the oppressed foreigners keep taking advantage of the visas. Shame on the evil corporations for taking advantage of these poor people. To think, they could be spending more on their own countrymen and supporting their grossly disproportionate wages.
Rather than say, "Hey, you're trying to pay less for programmers!" we should be saying "Hey, are we getting paid too much? Are we pricing ourselves out of positions?"
Don't get me wrong. I've been a programmer for quite some time and it sucks, but supply and demand concepts aren't limited to one country. The world is getting smaller and more connected. National economies are merging into a world economy. No amount of artificial propping-up by local governments is going to keep it from happening. Get used to it.
... and I refute the implication that I'm treated like a 'slave' or 'indentured labourer.' Yes I might make less than a US-born programmer, but I make a hell of a lot more than I was getting in the UK. Plus, I get all the benefits of being in California (cool lifestyle, nice weather, affordable stuff, etc.). And as someone else said, it's better for you guys that I'm here spending my money and paying taxes here rather than remaining in the UK and doing outsourced work from there.
On a side note, I can't vote here despite paying my taxes to Uncle Sam, but I can vote in UK elections by mail.
The other down side is that if my job goes, my visa goes with it soon after and I'm on the next plane back. However it becomes a lot easier to go through the green card application process when you're based here.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
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Complain if you like, but above all, act.
Mike (trying to practice what he preaches)
"Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
If the companies are using the H1B workers to pay them $20,000/yr less, do you think they'll give them large raises. What if they don't? The H1B code monkeys aren't going anywhere, they'll work for $30,000/yr, it is still better than what they get in their home country. Most of them will underestimate the living expenses and will think they are getting a killer deal. It is like me, when I tell my family in Russia what I make here in America, they are all "ooh"-ing and "aah"-ing like I am some kind of a millionare, they don't know that my car insurance is $200/month and utilites another $150/month and car payments, mortgage, school loans etc etc
Most H1B's are folks who've been in the workforce for a relatively shorter period of time. Most H1Bs are actually dual-status, which means they are applying for a Green Card while working as an H1B. Green Card processing typically takes 4-5 years. They are not classified as H1Bs once they get their Green Cards - which coincides with them acquiring additional experience and raises.
I make more money now than when I was an H1B and it has nothing to do with my visa status and everything to do with the fact that I have more experience doing what I do now than I did before.
Mmmm.. Donuts
Rather than say, "Hey, you're trying to pay less for programmers!" we should be saying "Hey, are we getting paid too much? Are we pricing ourselves out of positions?"
No. Any cheap work that could be done overseas is already being done overseas. The work that's left in the US would stay in the US regardless of what pay programmers demand. So, companies can only reduce the amount they pay in wages by artifically increasing the workforce and reducing the demand for high-skilled workers.
This has nothing to do with "free" trade in labor and everything to do with market manipulation. These companies do not want to deal with the free market as it's currently structured. So, instead of dealing in the free market, they'd rather redefine the labor market in their terms.
These companies would rather have completely open borders in the US where everyone from everywhere could freely enter. We've already heard Bush say exactly that. Labor costs in the US would plummet. So would the standard of living, but companies and the current administration don't actually care. The only reason they don't push that through now is that they've been pounding security for the last four years. Also, the majority US citizens, both Democrats and Republicans, don't want any more foreigners entering the country to take away jobs. If anything, people want the foreigners to leave so we could actually get some work and decent pay raises around here.
vs. looking at years of experience or education vs. pay
Why should an employer look at those two things when job performance should be the primary salary measurement? We just let a unix admin go who had 20+ years of "experience" and a college degree. That means 20+ years of screwing up servers in DC's accross the continental US. Nice guy, but I wouldn't let him touch a PC with a 10 foot pole.
In contrast, I've been in the industry since 94. I have no diplomas (not even high school), but have "the mother-f'ing force" when it comes to working with huge app clusters and complicated enterprise applications.
BBH
To my educational credit, I was a professional cook before getting into computers....
H1-B's are not supposed to be imported for the lower-tech jobs unless there is a scarcity of native talent for those lower-tech jobs. H1-B's are expected to be as trained, or more so, than their American counterparts. That's what the Benedict Arnold CEO's keep telling us - the supply of US tech talent is lacking. They have to import highly qualified people to continue innovating.
If what you say is true - H1-B's are less skilled - then the author's argument is strengthened.
Most people in the tech market today tend to feel that H1-B's are really being used to decrease salary pressure. If you're qualified but demand $80,000/yr, well they can just hire an H1-B at $60,000/yr. That's not what H1-B's are for.
Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
I agree with you for the most part, but everybody makes mistakes.
On the spelling front, for example, you misspelled the word "pity".
On the grammar front you forgot an "a"; "I work with a couple of American". (Yes, that's with a capital "a", too.)
Lastly, your first sentence would be more proper if it would read "Spelling and Americans ? You must be kidding me!!!" or "Spelling and Americans - you must be kidding me". The form in which you've written it now seems to indicate that you are saying "you must be kidding me" to both Americans and a person who goes by the name of "Spelling".
--
That said - who cares ? I've seen similar errors in letters written directly by CEOs (not passing through their secretaries/etc.) and even in press releases. It *would* be nice to hold everybody to a high standard to help keep it up, but I think it's far too late.