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The Escapist on Women In Games
The ever interesting Escapist has an entire issue concentrating on women in gaming this week. Particularly informative is a Chris Crawford penned piece on the subject. From the article: "I have long since given up participating in discussions on women in gaming. The games industry is so out of touch, such discussions are a waste of perfectly good electrons. When Microsoft wanted to publicize an event for women at a Game Developers' Conference a few years back, they splashed around banners showing a woman in a low-cut dress. Some people just don't get it."
And therefore, I shall now declaim a pompous, long-winded pulled-out-of-my-ass speech on that very same subject, about how evolution has shaped men as a hunters and women as nurturers -- an idea no one has *EVAR* thought of before!
Honestly, we get this story here literally every week. (This is sort-of the second one this afternoon.) Have any of them ever made a single useful point?
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
TTIWWP
I used to bulls-eye womp-rats in my pants
Pick up a womens' magazine sometime. What's on the front of it? That's right, a beautiful woman in sexy clothes. Look at television adverts specifically targeting women. What's in them? That's right beautiful women in sexy clothes.
Believe it or not, advertising weenies aren't complete idiots. If you want a high response from men, you use an image of a beautiful woman in sexy clothes, and if you want a high response from women, you use an image of a beautiful woman in sexy clothes too. It's not the advertising weenies' faults that this is what women respond to.
Does it seem like these guys are completely clueless at first glance? Sure. But when you compare it with other markets, and, most importantly, compare it with what works in other markets, it seems not only sane, but the obvious choice.
Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
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For those interested in women gamers as a distinct phenomenon and the perspectives of women gamers as relevant to game design choices, I find womengamers.com's analysis of various prominent female characters from recent gaming history fascinating. Certainly worth the read.
...a woman in a low-cut dress. Some people just don't get it.
Yeah, seriously, why are they wearing anything at all?
Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
I honestly dont understand why certain women are going through such lengths to try and get games made specificly for them. There -are- games that are made only for men, but the majority of them are made for a broad range of people. White, black, asian, 8years old or 80years old, the games spread through all types, not just for men. I know several women who love playing games from soul calibur to GTA, just because a few women dont like the games that are in the industry doesnt mean the entire industry should bend over backwards to make games that ONLY women will play.
Most comments/replies repeatedly number less than 100 (including trolls and basementers) and there are more focused places for the subject, it's just not here.
I think the hardest thing of all is asking a bunch of guys (because typically the developers and game-creators are male) to create a game that women want to play. There's a problem with that right there. The closest thing I've seen to a successful game where women really enjoy the game is The Sims series. My wife loves to play that all the time and build houses and build a family. What she's doing has no point, no goal to reach, but she loves to play it. She also likes to play driving games where you're not racing, but you're just driving around because she wants to drive around.
I know that my wife does not speak for all woman-kind for the type of games that need to be created, but the stuff she enjoys to play is just so incredibly different than what I would ever conceive of creating. There's no desire for competition and winning (although I know there are many women that are indeed very competitve and really want to win), and she's content with just driving around or just having the sims do stuff. It's hard to make a game when you don't really have an objective.
I could see some women enjoying more of a game where you are more defensive than something like a FPS where you go on the offense and attack everything.
I seriously think the hardest part about finding a game that women would enjoy is just finding out what the women want to play. Any of the answers that I see in the articles is so vague (an my suggestion was vague too) because there is no real set answer as to what women would enjoy.
Didn't you notice that the Games section is the only section, aside from book reviews, that's coming up with Slashdot-original content? And it's the only section where the original content was written by an employee instead of a regular reader like honestpuck?
It's a good move for Slashdot, and there's really no other place to put that content.
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How about a GTA/Crazy Taxi style game where the object is to fly around the city at random fight through throngs (by clubbing them like baby seals but with a purse) and avoid other obsitcals to find cute outfits, (buy them in parts to create a cute outfit combo that awards style points) like a celebrity stylist. Have one the constraints be fatigue, and say a credit limit with nice credit card branding (ie the ultimate would be a Amex Black card). Credit limit powerups, hell powerups influencing every variable in the game. Sell the branding so it's got some connection to real world, make it look slick, why not?
The novel as a genre reinvented women giving us what can be considered the modern western woman with the works of Jane Austin.
Perhaps if we wait long enough this medium will show some teeth, female teeth.
This article is not very well written. From a psychologist's point of view, it's really very sloppy. I'm not the only one: http://oghc.blogspot.com/2005/11/o-chris-crawford- we-shake-our-heads-at.html
That's a pretty good review of Crawford's piece in The Escapist. Unlike that guy, though- I'm really wondering what The Escapist was thinking publishing this. It brings down their repor. I think it is only because they interviewed him, and wanted to throw a bone.
Porn is about as big as the rest of Cinema all by itself, and that's while fighting puritanism, and government. And movies (such as say In To The Blue) do a fair about of business in skin on their own. So no. People like skin first stories second, or at least that's what they're willing to pay for.
Second, womens magazines do a fair amount of skin trade. It's not all about a healthy glow and a smart blouse. The real difference about the men's magazines and the womens magazines isn't the woman, or the amount of skin. It's the focus of the pictures.
In womens magazines it's on the clothes cause that's what they're selling. In mens, it's on the fantasy girls, cause that's what they're selling. Then when you get to something like Victoria's Secret where they're selling a lifestyle brand, it's both, and everyone is happy.
It feels like we get at least one post every two weeks from Escapist. The site is poorly designed if you don't happen to run at exactly their resolution. At 1280x1024 the text is so tiny that it can barely be read. The content they produce is of little value so why even bother linking to that drivel?
i thought everyone knew that women in games are really guys
Does she motorboat?
5 paragraphs into the pelvis discussion and i gave up. stupid with a capital STU.
and what's with the stupid stock photography behind every freaking "page" of the escapist?
it's online. do people print this crap out and leave it on the coffe table? didn't think so... so why the big glossy, slow loading jpegs?
This article was god awful. I don't think my old high school newspaper would have let this fly, but The Escapist is a decent collection of game essays and articles. I really like The Escapist. The format is easy to read and the art really works with the page turning .pdf version. Usually The Escapist has a lot of ideas that many commercial mags never really touch upon, where they go after youthful vernacular and the high school / undergraduate crowds, whereas The Escapist has some decent regular writers on staff.
Chris Crawford is not one of them, I hope. He's a contributor in this issue, but I don't think he's a regular columnist for these guys. They did an interview with him once, so they're probably extending the favor a little.
All that aside- no kidding, this article was BAD. Blah blah blah, basic high school psychology lesson, blah blah blah... and FINALLY at the end he says "and so maybe they should make a SOAP OPERA game... or not... I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm just providing INSIGHT, because I am a GENIUS."
I can't believe I wasted the 20 minutes it took me to read that thing.
Maybe he just needs a good editor.
And therefore, I shall now declaim a pompous, long-winded pulled-out-of-my-ass speech on that very same subject, about how evolution has shaped men as a hunters and women as nurturers -- an idea no one has *EVAR* thought of before!
This idea is one of those great uncontested theories that seems to make sense on first glance, but as soon as you delve into it it quickly falls under its own weight. From TFA:
The biggest difference was men were hunters and women were gatherers. This gender specialization did not arise because of some male conspiracy to dominate women or some other nastiness. It was the natural, inevitable result of a basic physical difference between men and women
What the hell?! Evidence please? Something beyond the musings of scientists raised in a somewhat, shall be say, biased society. Can anyone seriously suggest that half the adult population of a tribe of hungry, on the line, hunter-gatherers simply stayed at home twiddling their thumbs and watching sprogs while the other half actually went out risking life and limb to haul back the meat? You'd have to be born in the Fifties to buy this.
Oh wait. They did do something. They picked berries! That's rich. I can see this state of affairs lasting for about five minutes before someone in group A, the "hunter" group, realises and the majority of group B, the "gather" group, is reaping the benefit of this relationship far more than he.
A word to the wise who hold such unsubstanciated claims. Women have always worked. They have always been breadwinners. OK, there was a decade or two back there in the fifties where times were so good one spouse could afford not to work and stay home minding the kids. I know I would have. But apart from that, you'll find that women's hands have traditionally been just as calloused as everyone elses.
And if you bother to do any research at all, you'll find some of that modern callous is comeing from holding gampads all day.
May the Maths Be with you!
I just want to comment about my own experience.
When I was younger, I got the SNES, after I have had the NES. Both consoles where a big part of my infancy.
My mother used to see me play, I played Ninja Gaiden, Contra, and some other games.
Now, there were some titles that she actually played, and when an Aunt visited us, she also tried to play (I am speaking about 35 AND 45 yr old women). The games they enjoyed where: "Mario Kart", "Pilot Wings" and "Where in time is Carmen Sandiego". Of course they didnt played a lot, and they where not good (they were terrible in fact =oP) But those where the games they played.
Now, on a side note. My father didn't played at all and he even got a book titled: Video Kids, Video Kids: Making Sense of Nintendo to try to understand why we spent a lot of time playing (just wanted to state that he is from the "old school"). But, there was one game that really got him, it was Tetris. I remember sometimes me and my brother would be pissed off because he wont let us play because he kept playing Tetris (NES).
Now, I also (barely) remember with the Atari, there were some games which were played with the other control that was not the joystick (the rotary controllers or paddles). I remember a game that could be played by 4 persons with 4 of these controllers. Man, that game was incredible. In the game, each person had to take care of a "fortress" on each corner of the screen, and she controlled a small paddle as in Pong and had to avoid that the ball hit her fortress.
The important thing is that we played that with my mother also. And I barely remember that some of my cousins (women) enjoyed playing that.
Nowadays, I have some games in my laptop. I just installed The Sims 2, and my girlfriend seems to enjoy playing it. Also, I downloaded a SNES emulator and the game Mario Super Pickcross (nonogram) which to my surprise, the also enjoyed playing (darn! I had to tell her to borrow me my computer to work!).
To conclude, I think the main issue with Women games is that they are very specific games. Most women do not enjoy current FPS, this is, blowing up whatever they see. They also do not enjoy current RTS, this is creating a super-whooper-l33t army and blow up all the oponents.
They also do not enjoy curent RPGs, that is, developing a mega-super-l33t warrior/mage/avatar to blow up whoever crosses your way.
How does the game industry tries to fix it?, just adding boobs and long hair to the character. That is stupid. The argument is that in that way women will feel more "identified" with the character. That is stupid.
Think for a second about my next RTS. What is the "soul" of a RTS game?
- Develop an economy (specifically on current games develop you base)
- Create manaegable units (specifically "troops" on current RTS).
- Do something with those units (specifically "kick enemy asses" RTS).
Now, the "develop an economy" part is one that women do not have problem with that. And it could be modified to develop [something else] (as in The Sims, where you develop a home).
Second, when the manaegable units enter, it is something that women dont like. Because it is where the "ass kicking" focus starts. Instead of "troops" you could create other kind of units. And, the actions of course should be changed, instead of making them able to destroy, what about transporting or even fighting the nature (imagine a RTS game where you focused on evacuating native people from a place before a hurrican attacked). You do not need to kill anyone!
And the last sentence brings the third point, do something with those units. This is where the main "quick fun" should be.
Now, all this was for RTS games. I am sure the same analysis can be done to FPS games (of course they will be FP? instead) and other kind of games.
It would be very interesting to get statisticall information from Yahoo games, to see which of their online games are played by women.
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
So, what was the gaming/coding girl supposed to wear then ? Wool socks and one of those grey dull dresses covering all skin ?
The Dutch will inherit the earth. If not, we'll settle for a bit of ocean. Beta delenda est!
I just bought a GameCube a few weeks ago and my wife and her friends LOVE it. There are a lot of games they find appealing. They tend to like Super Monkey Ball 1 and 2, Sonic Heroes, Mario Kart, and Bomberman Jetters. One thing I've noticed about these games are that they are genres most game companies don't produce anymore. Another thing I've noticed about these games is that they center around simplicity. Monkey Ball uses the analog pad and the A button and that's it. Sonic Heroes does have the character switching but other than that it's a two button game (and character switching usually happens automatically until you get a chance to get the hang of it). Bomberman is just bomberman. It's about as simple as that game can be (especially with the return of 2D battle games). It's also very intuitive. I'm not saying women are morons who can't figure out complicated controls. What I am saying is that women tend to be casual gamers who don't want to learn complicated controls.
At least I know that original Pac Man wasn't done in VGA resolution. Jesus. 600 by 400? In 1982?
OK the person who wrote that article couldn't design if their life depending on it. I've been gaming since I was a very little girl. I'm now 24 and still play games and online games. Most people don't care for the fact that I'm a woman. It's the minority of idiot pre pubescent teens that start the drooling or treating me like an idiot.
I just ignore them. As for the sorts of games that I play I love RPGs, the cute Japanese puzzle games, MMORPGs, Action/adventure, and other puzzle games. I also love games like Mario Kart, Monkey Ball, and Dynasty Warriors. I play games either becuase I love the storyline and gameplay or becuase I can pick them up and have some fun as a means to kill my time.
There have been many times when dealing with people that I wished I could kiss my own butt goodbye
I'm generally happy out as a woman gamer. I love RPGs so they are the main thing I play.
I also play other types of games but I devote most of my hours to rpgs.
As long as the clothes and attitudes the women have aren't ridiculous (wearing pieces of string, having to be rescued in a patietic way, signing over the men like a women in a frank miller comic) I have no problem with it.
Exceptions to 'the having to be resuced' are of course Ico. That is truely fantastic. But in Ico it wasnt shoved in your face, she has to be rescued as she is a girl, its simple because they have a good story.
One point however I would like to make is, giving people a female main character option should not mean the same, as giving a faster yet weaker character. It shows a deep lack of orginality, and a lack of considered character design. If you expect me to believe that this character can take a bullet and keep going I'm expecting a least some muscle.
What a load of crap.
The writer uses (outdated) information on what we (think) we know about the stone ages, uses it as a model of what is the most appropriate behavior model for both genders, and makes the assumption that us ladies would prefer games that are "interactive soap opera or bodice ripper, presenting the player with complex social problems as she seeks the ideal mate."
*shudder* If this is what "games for women" are supposed to be like, Im glad they dont make them.
Im a woman and I like games. Many of my female friends like games. Nearly all of them have played and enjoyed violent action games. The old fallacy is that women dont play games because they dont find what they want from games. But women do play. Each year there are more and more female gamers, without the help of "girl games". Even the thought of having a "womens game" where you are supposed to "seek your ideal mate" is frankly offensive. Just because women have historically been forced to stay at home and limit our lives to home, doesnt mean that our goals or fantasies cant include anything else. Hey, I want to be a hero, too! I want to kick butt, not socialize. I have all the social problems I want in my real life. Please dont patronize me just because of my gender.
I see a lot of articles like this, I see industry experts and teams of executives coming up with the mystical answer to how to draw women in to gaming. Scientists and psychologists desperate to crack open a new market.
6 /15/mobile_gaming_more_popular_with_women_than_men .html
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http://www.theesa.com/facts/top_10_facts.php
43% of gamers are female. In certain categories more women than men.
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/games/archives/2005/0
The title says it all.
http://www.wi-fitechnology.com/displayarticle2212
Online games as well.
One of the best articles I ever read was one written by a disgruntled woman about the fact that she just wanted games developers to develop games. She was sick of her sex being singled out by the industry as if curvy women with big breasts was any worse than he-man look alikes with a penchant for baby oil. She was right.
These 'experts' can harp on about there wonder treatment of the industry but when it comes down to it,
if you make a good game people will play it. It doenst matter what sex you are.
This is the only industry that makes such ridiculous distinctions between the sexes. The movie industry knows what its doing in regard to this. Sure some are chick flicks some are macho fests most are inbetween and most people dont complain. So why is it that in the Games industry no one can accept that if you just make a quality game half of the population isnt just going to ignore it because God forbid the female characters are quite lucky in the looks department I know for a fact the males will almost certainly be a Keanu Reves or Arnold Swarchnegger rip off.
The major problem with women and gaming is the fact people think there is a major problem with women and gaming.
As for the article. A lot of it is really really bad. The explanation of how you can use our ancestory to predict which games we would prefer is utter crap. Go back pre Wolfenstein and ask him to use his theories to take a look in to the future. Chances of him predicting the future game probably around the 0 area maybe a little more due to shear luck. It may tell us why we enjoy playing these games but as a prediction tool, not even close. Thats the key to why this article essentially says nothing. Im fairly sure if you ignored the sims (A game which has a wopping female following and does match up to his 'prediction') this guy probably wouldnt even have made the connection he did. I certainly doubt hes actually come up with the perfect game idea for women using this psychoanalysis. I there even is such a thing.
My ex-gf's favorite game was Dead or Alive, which we dubbed "hooter combat" (she was not as gifted as the girls in game).
My current gf had me download the unrated version of the newest Leisure Suit Larry game (she IS as gifted as the girls in game).
Hmmm could it be..
A) Angry man hating no confidence bitches need something to whine about in gaming in between their camo-geared marches on campus
or/and
B) Most self confident women actually don't mind sex'd up entertainment and don't feel threatened by things as silly as massive boobs on volleyball extreme.
or/and
C) Ever seen a bald dude with bad abs on a soap opera as the hero/love interest?
This Crawford dude... man I don't know where he gets the clout to keep popping up ever 2-3 years with one of this know-it-all articles. The games he's had published are all ancient and irrelevant by now. His "interactive storytelling" has been his thing for over 6 years now, with no tangible results! Chris. It's time to just retire.
His first mistake is his opening paragraph where he bags on Ms PacMan. It may sound like sticking a bow on pac's head was a weak attempt to appeal to women, but guess what dude? -- It worked! Ms PacMan was more successful than PacMan and that had everything to do with (not only the great gameplay and finally more than 1 maze) but with the fact that the game's aesthetics opened the door to female gamers who were previously a bit shy about entering that world filled with men (the video/pinball arcade). It may seem stupid on the surface that it took baby blue paint and pink trim to make this happen, but that's called marketing.
This guy decries the chauvinism towards and misunderstanding of females in the gaming industry, and after a long winded exposition on evolutionary psychology which is news to absolutely nobody, concludes: women gamers want interactive soap operas and bodice-rippers? WTF.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
I remember watching a trailer for Ninety Nine Nights because I was curious as to why this would be the end of Koei's Dynasty Warriors series. I remember feeling rather insulted by it.
The portion arrives when the obligatory female character is displayed, and displayed she is. It is immediately implied she has nothing on, before she puts on what I can barely call armor (as so much is showing) with an entire camera shot showing nothing but her clamping her chest peice over he breasts.
Am I the only one insulted by this?
I'm a guy, but I make a point of treating woman as more than a pair of breasts and a reproduction center. I find myself continually insulted by the belief that I can only like women who not only have large mammaries but show them off to the world. Maybe I'm a jealous bastard, but I'd rather prefer any woman I dated to dres in such a way that all the other guys around can't oggle them.
Dynasty Warriors treats women a lot more fairly than most, as they are almost all (save for the amazon-like character) fully dressed. Having a single woman capable of decimating entire armies of men, while well dressed, is a good step towards better portayal of women, although not exactly a giant leap.
Thunderclone: ONE MAN ENTERS! TWO MEN LEAVE! ONE MAN ENTERS! TWO MEN LEAVE!
It's bad if the woman is a "damsel in distress", but it's also bad if she's the heroine because then men will be controlling her. And it's bad to have women as monsters because then men are killing women. Also it's bad not to have any women in the game at all.
So it's impossible to win. This article is stupid.