Slashdot Mirror
XBOX 360=Dreamcast 2.0?
Tenken writes "1UP has an eye opening article on the many similarities between the XBOX 360 and the Dreamcast. It's actually pretty scary, case in point: both consoles launched a year before their major competitors, and even their logos are incredibly similar. The article also goes on to mention why the 360 will not fail miserably like the Dreamcast. "
I love my Dreamcast. I still play it daily (used the HD output for years to my projectors). Never owned a PSx. I still have (younger) friends who knock on my door all the time to get their Dreamcast fix.
I also couldn't give up my Intellivision for a Nintendo for 2 years (Metroid finally did it). Graphics hype wasn't enough. My friends with Nintendo came to my house for all-night Intellivision gaming. Playability was tops. I still have my Intellivision for a few games. Love that controller.
I can't see picking up an X360 for gaming. I own 2 X-Box consoles, 90% for my Media Center Extenders, 10% for my broad's vampire games. Since back in the day, my gaming was PC gaming. Castlevania and Conan, Ultima, Utopia, etc.
Console gaming for me was never about video hype. I love repeated playability with longevity, and catchy music/sounds. Graphics have always been better on my PC, but I turn them to the lowest settings. We're getting really close to "Life" rather than "Life-like" and when we get there, I'll put graphics near the top once I can truly be reality immersed.
There aren't many gamers like me, I think. I'm not a market. I spend a TON on hardware, very little on software. I'd love to find a group/site I can communicate with, consisting of people with similar gaming issues.
Chu Chu Rocket, anyone?
The slashdot editors were probably not assigning the XBOX 360 to have the same value as the Dreamcast, but rather just doing a comparison. But since they have performed the assignment, the XBOX 360 will fail several years ago, in EXACTLY the same way as the Dreamcast. :-)
that Microsoft is not coming off an abysmal failure of a console, it's coming from a console that did relatively well. It seems a lot of people were just so tired of Sega constantly releasing overpriced hardware(eg 32x, Genesis CD, Sega Saturn) with a very limited software selection that they just gave up on Sega and wouldn't even give the Dreamcast a try. Of course Sony's overhyped PS2 announcement didn't help either, but I don't think that was the main cause of the demise of the dreamcast. Microsoft(in the realm of video games anyway) is coming off a somewhat surprising hit with the XBox, a relatively long lived console with lots of games to choose from. They could still fail, but I don't think it will be for the same reasons the Dreamcast failed.
Monstar L
I've already read this article, and I don't feel that many of those "similarities" are even relevant. After all, couldn't much of the same be said of other consoles?
The same thing occurred to me when I saw the white 360 controller in Walmart. "Is the Dreamcast back?" And then I saw the 360 logo. Interesting...
#13 on the list is "Peter Moore spearheaded the marketing" and most of the actual similarities seem like Marketing aspects of it so I think a better headline would read "How Peter Moore's marketing style resembles Peter Moore's marketing style"
Has anyone else noticed that 1up excels at taking up 2 or 3 pages of space in their articles, despite never actually saying anything? They read like one of those papers you write in school when you aren't sure what you want to say, but you started writing anyway because it's due the next morning.
They don't care if your mods help sell consoles. They lose money on the consoles. They make the money on the software and accessories. So, by you modding the console, and buying nothing else (save for maybe a memory card to perform the 'raincoat mod' or something) they get nothing else from you. How is this good for them? Why is Microsoft happy that they sold more Xbox's to people when they lost so much money on each one? If you don't get Xbox live, don't buy games, and never get the latest greatest accessory, then they lose money on you. They couldn't care less that you are running Linux on it, or playing homebrew games that make them no money...
The only possible benefit is that if you modded their console, you are probably more likely to have modded the competitions console as well, and thus their competitor also lost money on you...
Now DRM is a little different, I find it annoying in most cases and believe that it doesn't really help stop piracy in most cases. And I am a software engineer, so I can relate to not wanting my stuff pirated. I know a lot of musicians who also beleive DRM is not the right way to solve the problem, we're all just waiting for a better alternative unfortunately.
Of course it's true, that's an assignment statement, not a comparison ;). Sheesh.
WTF? The stupid article is more fortune-telling than anything else. There's nothing technical or logical about the article. It's basically looking for signs of omens. If Mars is aligned on Venus' right on the launch date, the XBox 360 is bound to succeed....
EvilCON - Made Famous by
They assigned it the value of Dreamcast 2.0. There hasn't been a Dreamcast 2.0 yet, so the XBOX 360 is currently null (Nothing in Visual Basic).
Therefore, it actually doesn't exist. Quod erat demonstratum etc.
(Now, having seen many pictures of the console before this, my head will surely explode in either case.)
You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
They saved the real reason it would succeed until the end. Piles and piles of cash. M$ would all but give the console away to make sure that it succeeded and that is the reason it will do well. People will have $10 worth of anything that is free.
Perhaps the rest of the PC industry could counter this rise of the console by designing a standard PC spec for gaming. First create a few simple categories. I suggest "PC Gaming Machine 2005 Level 1, 2 and 3". In each category spec out three of four machines (eg one amd with a nvidia, one intel with nvidia, etc) built with decent components. Level 1 machines have top of the range components, level 2 is where most people will be, level 3 is entry gaming. The games publishers could just test their game against these machines specs and get a tick in the "PC Gaming Machine 2005 Level 2 Compatible" (or whatever) box.
Simple, understandable and doesn't need to cost the Earth.
I used to have a better sig but it broke.
Best. Console. Ever.
If the xbox 360 can have half the amount of original games that the Dreamcast had, I'm getting one.
And yes, even though I hate Microsoft, Sony has become the new Evil. DRM on *everything* seems to be their goal, and the PS3 will be the ultimate foot-in-the door in their quest to lock down all things digital.
Blu-Ray. Just say no!
-Copyright law #69:Whenever Mickey Mouse is about to enter the public domain,copyrights get extended by 25 years.
Listing fluffy similarities between two systems isn't "pretty scary". It's pretty easy to do when you set your standards for a similarity at such a meaninglessly low level.
OMG!! Both were white systems when the previous generations were black. Noooz!!!
Calling the PS3 "far superior at this point is rediculous. Mentioning "hi-def" when the Dreamcast was released before there was basically any hi-def sets in homes and when the PS3 is also supporting hi-def is moronic.
The article itself was so fluffy I can't believe it made it to the front page. But hey, if you didn't RTFA in this case it only takes aobut 20 seconds and there's lots of little pictures to help you out.
Hmm, I read it, but then put it down in disgust on reason number 7:
D: Had tons of amazing games...but no Halo 3.
X: Will have Halo 3. And it will be huge.
That point being given to the XBox? To put it bluntly, this is biased crap.
Indeed, the people that accuse Dreamcast of being a "failed" system invariably are those that never had a dreamcast! The system rocked, and had eminently fun & groundbreaking games. If, like me, this is what you want from your console, then the Dreamcast was a smashing success (actually its my favorite console of all time). If, on the other hand what you desire from your console is "the same mediocrity that all your friends have", then the PS2 is your man.
For those who read TFA... did you notice that the Time Magazine shown in #10 has Bill Gates behind the 360 resembling the all-famous Borg image? *shudder*
In any case, I'd rather have bill gates selling a famous videogame console rather than forcing a crappy operating system down our throats.
/ You seem to try to create a gaming \
\ console. May I help you? /
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So, if one of the biggest problems faced by the original Dreamcast was that is was ahead of its time for some of its features like online play, then I'd say the timing for the 360 is just about perfect!
Mountain Dew is in no way similar to Pepsi. Drawing a parallel between the two is absolutely ridiculous. Mountain Dew is gathered by hand only from the freshest clover leaves in the unspoiled Smokey Mountains of Tennessee. It was the official drink of the original olympic games. It is versatile. It can substitute for blood plasma during emergencies or natural disasters. Pepsi, however, is nothing but sugar water with brown food coloring.
Liberals call everyone Nazis yet they are the closest thing to it.
"DC: Had tons of amazing games...but no Halo 3
X360: Will have Halo 3. And it will be huge."
How the hell do they know Halo 3 will be huge? If it's like the last one it won't be finished and it won't be a patch on the FPS games the PC has been doing for years.
Who the fuck is bribing the whole games industry into giving the Halo franchise such a cock sucking? It's average at best and nothing revolutionary, why everyone hails these games as the second coming I don't know. And before anyone tells me about Halo 2 on Live, it's full of squealing 13 year olds who call everyone gay when they get fragged.
Believe it or not, the gaming business isn't about giving you and your friends fun games to play, it's about making money. That's why it's hard to qualify the XBox as a success. The XBox lost more money than any other console in history. Microsoft has lost billions of dollars on the XBox. Heck, it's still losing money on a quarterly basis as Microsoft readies the 360. If the XBox 360 is as big a financial disaster as the XBox then Microsoft investors are almost certainly going to wonder what they are doing throwing their money down a hole.
Now, I have to slightly disagree with you there. Firstly, was it actually a "disaster"? Is Microsoft in financial troubles because of it? I couldn't claim to have anything near to exact figures, but I'm nonetheless quite sure that the answer is no, it is not in bad financial shape now because of the X-Box. Just because it didn't make money doesn't make Microsoft instantly broke, and investors know that . . .
Now, I'm usually the first to lambast the system for the encouragement of short-term quarterly gains instead of long-term goals, but I think in this case Microsoft (or, since this is slashdot after all, I should say "M$") has been pretty clear with its goals and the investors are on board with it. The fact that Microsoft is making so much money in every other area is exactly why it needs to go into this area even if it means losing a fraction (perhaps a sizable fraction, even) of that profit; there really isn't much room for growth where it is now. Already with a virtual monopoly, what is "M$" left to do? So what if some money is lost in the short term. It's a sacrifice to get a foothold in an industry that is quite difficult to break through into. But the X-Box is a success because it does show a widespread adoption. It was certainly never intended to make money, it was meant to be successful in the "screw the monetary consideration!.....for now" way. And a foothold in the video-game industry gives the Redmondians a stepping stone for access into the vague but promising directions that digital entertainment is always threatening to soar off into.
The company has grown, and growth is nearly synonymous with success. The profit part can come later. If Microsoft had less of a seriously impressive disposable income, then it would be another story, but the company has the luxury of such (relatively) grand planning.
Naturally, if anyone has facts to back up my arguement (or alternatively, to dismantle it) please do elaborate!
I remember sigs. Oh, a simpler time!
What makes you think the Dreamcast failed because of marketing?
I knew about it. I bought consoles. Heck, I bought an Atari Jaguar - AND the CD unit! It wasn't like I made my choices based on popularity.
But I just wasn't interested in the Dreamcast, because while it had some good games it did not have (in my mind) a lot. And the other problem was that for a brand new system, it seemed underpowered. To a lot of gamers that was a point in time where the increase in graphics meant more than they do now. To me the Dreamcast languished because of being slightly underpowered and a trickle of games I cared about.
In that respect I do think the 360 has some things in common. Not exactly in the graphics where it appears to be about equal, but more in storage with the space-limiting DVD meaning games with wider ranges of graphic content will be released on the PS3. And there just aren't enough interesting games lined up for release yet (the ones that are actually releasing anyway) to make me want to buy the system now, or seemingly even in six months.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
One interesting aspect of the 360 that may help it fare well is with a DVD drive instead of a newer drive like HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, piracy will be simpler - so more peeople may actually buy the console for that reason. Even pirates end up buying some games so it might help it out.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I started at Sega just before the launch of the Dreamcast, so I don't know the entire story (or even if this one is completely true). Nonetheless, this is what I heard:
The team at SOJ (Sega of Japan) didn't want to make their own OS for the Dreamcast. They were uneasy about it, but chose Windows CE, as I guess they figured that it was similar enough to Win32. The fact that Microsoft was able to demo Internet Explorer on the Dreamcast was probably a big bonus, given Sega's desire to make the Dreamcast a big thing on the Internet.
However, as time went on, SOJ noticed that Windows CE was big and bloated and full of bugs. There was developer backlash. Sega's own software development teams (AM) needed something better, especially if they were to make full power of the Dreamcast (there was an arcade system that was basically a Dreamcast on steroids, although the name escapes me now). Thus, Sega of Japan started to develop their own low-level operating system for the Dreamcast. By the time that this happened though, the contract was in place with Microsoft for Windows CE - part of the contract was that Sega had to make WinCE available to all developers and stamp the logo on the unit.
My own observations:
Most of the developers in the United States and Europe used Sega's OS - it just provided the low-level functionality that tbey were used to. The developers who were using WinCE usually had an existing code base that ran on Win32 on the PC, and they were looking for a quick port. For games that weren't really intensive, this worked fine, but for some others (I saw early versions of Half-Life on the DC, when it was already delayed by at least six months, and let me tell you, it had *major* problems+) it was a disaster. What I would tell developers who were asking me if WinCE was worth using: "It will get you a solid 15 FPS, and if you're willing to optimize your rendering code with some assembly (to make use of the SH4's vector functions), you should be able to get 30 FPS. You'll get your game up and running faster, but you'll spend more time optimizing it for speed."
Version 1 of WinCE for Dreamcast was pretty buggy, version 2 fixed a lot of things, but even once they came out with the final version (I think 2.1), there were still lots of bugs. Developers were asking me if Microsoft would release WinCE 3, or at least fix some of the bugs. I tried to get the source for WinCE 2.1 for DC (so that I could try to at least maintain it myself for the developers) and got nowhere. Mind you, this was only a few months from Sega canning the Dreamcast anyway.
Microsoft did what they could to get developers to use WinCE on the Dreamcast. They'd send out promotional material to every new (and existing) Dreamcast developer which included a T-shirt, a Leatherman tool and of course, the WinCE SDK CD. We got a lot of thanks for the free tool and a T-shirt, while the CDs went into the garbage.
-- Joe
+ That's not to say that the sole decision to cancel Half-Life for the Dreamcast was because of WinCE performance. There were also some other issues outside of that, which I shall not discuss, but WinCE was a big factor.
Xbox 360 would be Dreamcast 3.0.
Back when Dreamcast was starting up, MS offered up their Windows CE as a platform to Sega as the DC OS. It came in late, so the first games didn't use it. But Sega was pressing their developers to use it, and MS was helping out a lot. Japanese DCs came with the text "designed for Windows CE" on the front.
But something happened, Sega got word MS was doing all this because they were working on a gaming machine of their own, a "super Dreamcast". And MS was offering up CE so that when MS' box came out they would have a lineup of games ready to go, or at least easy to port. It would give them a huge legup on all the other competitors in the video game market (including Sega).
So Sega immediately told their developers not to use Windows CE. Only one game came out with Windows CE, Sega Rally (the browser also used CE). And US Dreamcasts say "compatible with Windows CE" on the front.
And not too long after, MS released their machine with a controller which was very similar to the DC controller. Same basic layout, with two additional buttons and the hole in the top for the memory unit display covered (Sega had moved away from the memory cards with displays by that time too).
So, Xbox really was a super Dreamcast, or a Dreamcast 2.0 if you wish.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Microsoft literally gave the Xbox away.
:)
Microsoft did not literally give the Xbox away. When we say stuff like "Microsoft gave the Xbox away", we accept some slight exaggeration being used to make a point.
I can't see any justification for throwing "literally" in there, unless you actually meant "literally". Or perhaps you didn't mean "literally" literally. But I doubt it...
Please don't tell me you were actually referring to Microsoft giving a few of the things away in promotions; we know that's not what you meant
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
1. Nintendo is the most profitable of the big three, despite having the smallest share.
2. One of the reasons that the Gamecube is so dang affordable ($90 retail here in Canada) is because they left out the ability to play DVDs. Those licenses cost money.
3. The "kiddie" market is extremely lucrative, and Nintendo dominates it. Kids harass their parents constantly about toys. Parents have money. Teenagers and college students don't. Did you ever wonder why 90% of your friends' XBoxes and PS2s are modded?
4. If "Clueless Dad" walks into Wal-Mart looking for a console for his kids, he'll find that the cheapest one has about 200 E-rated games. On top of that, "Clueful Dad" will probably know that this cheap console is so durable that his kids will have to work really, really hard to wreck it before the next generation comes out.
5. Were the 'cutesy discs' really a problem? I can only think of a handful of games that needed to span two discs.
I think that Nintendo is working to convert a bit of its "kiddie" image to a "casual" image. The fact of the matter is, Gates didn't get into the console business because of Sony. He did it because he heard Nintendo had these insane 20% profit margins. Now he cries himself to sleep every night because Nintendo still has 20% profit margins and he's losing a mint.
The US Army: promoting democracy through unquestioned obedience