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UK To Passively Monitor Every Vehicle

DrSkwid writes "The UK Police are building a network to monitor the movement of every vehicle in the U.K. through an extensive Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) system. The data will be retained for 2 years. The Register further reports that the system will likely be used for issuing speeding fines." From the article: "The primary aims claimed for the system are tackling untaxed and uninsured vehicles, stolen cars and the considerably broader one of 'denying criminals the use of the roads.' But unless the Times has got the spacing wrong, having one every quarter of a mile on motorways quite clearly means they'll be used to enforce speed limits as well, which would effectively make the current generation of Gatsos obsolete. Otherwise, checking a vehicle's tax and insurance status every 15 seconds or thereabouts would seem overkill."

107 of 703 comments (clear)

  1. What's a Gatso? by chris_mahan · · Score: 2, Funny

    What's a Gatso?

    Don't misread that you dyslexic perv.

    --

    "Piter, too, is dead."

    1. Re:What's a Gatso? by Alioth · · Score: 4, Informative

      A type of speed camera.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatso

    2. Re:What's a Gatso? by lakin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Gatso is the current yellow-back speed cameras, which uses the

      These new speed cameras (called SPECS) are already deployed on some parts of motorways and a few A roads (they look like yellow CCTV cameras), which have two cameras spaced about a mile apart and they calculate your average speed.

      Either way, i think these new systems are generally a good idea. Speeding is a problem, and the current speed cameras can in some areas cause more accidents than they save. I think all we need now are more dynamic speed limits, so A roads could become national when its quiet, but drop to 50 when its busy - kind of like they currrently drop some speed limits when the weather is bad.

      As much as i support them though, you are left thinking this is starting to give the government a bit too much control - as these systems dont just record you when you speed or have no tax, they record you all the time. I mean, if all you want to do is catch tax evaders, just stick them on a few key junctions. If you want to catch speeders, just put them on key accident sites. More complete deployments though gives them an easy way to monitor people. You can just imagine them changing the taxes so you are taxed more the more you drive. And heck, eventually they could do more advanced monitoring, say checking the type and colour of the vehicle, or even looking inside to see who is in the car. Maybe even detect drunk drivers. Once the network is there its only a small jump.

      So, who is up for making a number plate shaped LCD? Sounds like a good job for e-ink type displays! Granted, they might notice if your number plate changes at each camera (especially if you are always between the same two cars infront and behind).

      --
      Paul
    3. Re:What's a Gatso? by name773 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    4. Re:What's a Gatso? by mrchaotica · · Score: 4, Insightful
      You can just imagine them changing the taxes so you are taxed more the more you drive.
      Newsflash: they can already do this. It's called the gasoline tax -- the more gas you buy, the more you pay in taxes.

      However, I agree that these cameras have bad implications for civil liberties -- and far beyond just traffic offenses. Once they're tracking you, they can be monitoring to see if you're engaging in any "terrorist-like" behavior, such as planning protests against an opressive government.

      Of course, this just makes me glad I don't live in Airstrip One.

      By the way, even if speeding were a problem, in this case the "solution" is worse.
      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    5. Re:What's a Gatso? by Baddas · · Score: 2, Informative

      He used a roller with several plates on it.

      Theoretically, you could use physical means, for example, the standard LCD-type lettering, with the bars pressed into a flexible semitransparent plastic of a different color, thus standing out like a "normal" license plate.

    6. Re:What's a Gatso? by EsbenMoseHansen · · Score: 3, Insightful
      A problem for whom? Do you have any good statistical data to back up the assertion that speeding is a problem? Not trolling just interested if that was opinion / truism or not.

      Don't know about UK, but in DK about 1 in 5 casualties of traffic is thought to be caused speeding. Those are the official numbers. I would imagine that the numbers are not so different in UK.

      Of course, such numbers comes with the usual reservations. No one knows if the casualty would have been suffered if the speeder had not, in fact, speeded.

      --
      Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
    7. Re:What's a Gatso? by ydrol · · Score: 2, Informative
      Man, do the British really have that big of a speeding problem?

      Partly speeding and partly seen as an easy source of revenue for the various boroughs.

    8. Re:What's a Gatso? by Soruk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Are you also aware that once you go much above 65mph your car's fuel economy plummets, so although you're going faster you're not only using fuel faster you're also using more per mile you travel.

      OK, maybe you do like lining Gordon Brown's pockets. I sure as hell don't.

      --
      -- Soruk
    9. Re:What's a Gatso? by hesiod · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > Only 3% of accidents are solely caused by speeding

      No, 0% of accidents are caused by just speeding. Speed doesn't kill, it's the sudden stop. The only way that speed could have killed a person is if they had a heart attack: "scared to death" from going so fast. Actually, then it's their heart thay killed them.

  2. New motorsport in the UK by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 2, Funny

    having one every quarter of a mile on motorways quite clearly means they'll be used to enforce speed limits as well,

    Does this mean drag-racers can practise on the highway and get away with it?

    --
    "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
    1. Re:New motorsport in the UK by misleb · · Score: 2, Funny

      Only if they place a brick wall just before the next camera...

      -matthew

      --
      "THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
  3. Boy am I glad... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    That we in the colonies won the war and started a country that didn't take away our rights and treat us like criminals.

    1. Re:Boy am I glad... by oddaddresstrap · · Score: 5, Funny

      You forgot the "oh, wait..." part.

    2. Re:Boy am I glad... by takeya · · Score: 2, Interesting

      We are?
      I've never seen a speed trap that wasn't a trooper running radar.

      And I always speed 10-15 over (and keep a good eye out!), so I'd've been ticketed by now.

      I really have to appreciate that the police presence doesn't deter me from speeding, but makes me a more conscious driver because I'm more prepared to break for them or other roadside dangers, and far more aware. I mean, you've gotta be when you're travelling an interstate US Route (not highway mind you) at 95 MPH ;p

    3. Re:Boy am I glad... by Tassach · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Can you give me _ONE_ real example of how _YOUR_ rights have been violated here in the USA? I live in Maryland (which doesn't issue carry permits unless you're politically connected), so my right to bear arms is violated on a daily basis.

      Thanks to the USA-PATRIOT act, I might be one of the 30,000+ US citizens with no links to terrorism who was a subject of a national security letter. I'll never know, because of the gag order that accompanies them. My (9th amendment) right to know, as previously guaranteed by the FOIA act and other laws, has been nullified.

      My right to petition the government for grievances and to peaceably assemble is violated every time I'm herded into a "free speech zone".

      My right to be secure against unreasonable searches and seizures disappears the moment I get in to a motor vehicle, whether I'm driving it or not.

      My property can be taken without just compensation any time the government feels that someone else would pay more tax if they had it instead of me.

      That's just what I can think of at 11:30 at night after a couple of stiff drinks. I'm sure I can come up with some more.

      --
      Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
    4. Re:Boy am I glad... by bhiestand · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Why would you want the right to bear arms? I'd assume you'd prefer the right to not be shot. I just don't get otherwise sensible seeming Americans on this

      The right to bear arms is, fundamentally, the right to self-protection from government, authority, or any other asshole that tries to infringe on any other rights you may have. Even if you could stop CRIMINALS from obtaining firearms, don't you think that they'll just switch to knives, axes, brass knuckles, large wooden stakes, or any other type of weapon that could be used to gain control of, or injure, defenseless, weaker people?

      That being said, I could give a damn about having firearms for self defense. I want them in case my government ever gets out of control. I want them so that I can, if the need arises, be part of an armed revolution. And that's a DAMNED patriotic, American thing to say. Eventually it WILL be a necessity, despite our well-written constitution, because eventually some dickwad will gain control of the government. It could be a foreign power, it could be a corrupt politician in a time of war (like Marcos in the Philippines) instituting martial law then refusing to remove it, and it could be a military coup de'tat. I know this sounds loony and paranoid, but you never really know. My money says it'll happen eventually in America. Hopefully it won't in my lifetime but, if it does, I will happily take the risk of imprisonment or death at the hands of a bad regime in order to try to restore a proper government.

      I know people are going to chime in about Bush and all of that crap, but I don't think that's nearly as bad as people think. Now, if the man declared himself King Bush II, announced that the 2008 elections were going to postponed indefinitely, etc. you can bet I'd jump on that bandwagon. Even if his actions are criminal (which I doubt), there is a proper constitutional system in place which can still be utilized.

      To summarize, some of us aren't scared shitless of being shot. Some of us are scared shitless of being unable to shoot.
      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
  4. Thanks by keesh · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'd just like to say thanks for trying to waste my hard-earned tax money on this, rather than going out and using it for something useful like fixing the sorry state of our education system or making the NHS ever so slightly less pathetic.

  5. I've seen the future... by multipartmixed · · Score: 5, Funny

    Lenina Huxley, you are fined one-half credit for a sotto voce violation of the Verbal Morality Statute. Additionally, you are fined 120 credits per infraction of the Safe Speed Statutes, for exceeding the speed limit of 45 miles per hour on the freeway 72 times this morning. Be Happy!

    --

    Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
    1. Re:I've seen the future... by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Doubleplusungood brother...

      --
      "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
  6. Another reason by VJ42 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Yet another reason for me to want to emigrate from the UK, what with ID cards, and 90 days detention without trial etc.(Thankfully the latter was defeated in parliment). At this rate, with ever more draconian laws I'll be able to claim asylum.

    --
    If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
    1. Re:Another reason by dfjunior · · Score: 3, Funny

      Or you could do what we did, have a revolution!
      The UK Gov't hasn't given us a whole heck of a lot of trouble since...

    2. Re:Another reason by Tackhead · · Score: 5, Insightful
      > > Yet another reason for me to want to emigrate from the UK, what with ID cards, and 90 days detention without trial etc.(Thankfully the latter was defeated in parliment). At this rate, with ever more draconian laws I'll be able to claim asylum.
      >
      > Or you could do what we did, have a revolution!
      > The UK Gov't hasn't given us a whole heck of a lot of trouble since...

      Ah yes, flee UK ID cards and 90-day detention without trial for the balmy shores of the United States, with REAL ID, and, umm... indefini... aaw fuck.

      As the gray of November gives way to a long cold winter for Western Civilization, the UK's forgotten stepchild (Canada, eh?) is beginning to look warm and sunny by comparison.

    3. Re:Another reason by dfjunior · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I didn't say come to the U.S., I said have a revolution.

    4. Re:Another reason by VJ42 · · Score: 4, Informative

      All they can do is see where your car is

      Add to that a CCTV camera on virtually every street corner (hell I even had one pointing at me inside a taxi the other day), the extention to detention without trial (even to 28 days is longer than most common law countries*) & the hair-brained biometric passport & ID card schemes, so now they know exactly what I do and where I go all the time, and want me to pay for it all. Sounds doubleplusgood to me.

      *according to the latest private eye.

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
    5. Re:Another reason by Spectra72 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure and when you decide to join a political group that maybe isn't looked upon favorably by the Govt, they can track you right to the meetings.

      Maybe you're having an affair, your spouse can now petition the state to have your movements tracked.

      Maybe you take the daughter of a important MP out on a date, one thing leads to another. Now he can track you and have you busted for statutory rape! (not sure if that is a law in the UK, but you get my point).

      Government tracking is never a good thing.

    6. Re:Another reason by Tango42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What's the point of a revolution in a democracy? You're more likely to persuade people to vote for you than fight for you.

    7. Re:Another reason by TwistedKestrel · · Score: 2, Informative

      As far as I know those signs are just there to make one feel guilty, I don't think they have any ticketing capability.

    8. Re:Another reason by Unordained · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So ... would you complain if cop cars seems to mysteriously always be nearby when you were speeding?

      Do you object to cops monitoring your speed?
      Would you object to an increase in police personnel to do this same job?
      Do you object to automatic ticketing?
      Do you object to the notion of guilty until appealed? (tickets are like this)
      Do you object to the entire notion of speed limits?
      Do you object to spending this much money on speed limit enforcement? Any money?
      Do you object to the excessive proportional allocation of funds for this?
      Do you object to the road work this will require, and the associated traffic?

      While there's obviously some discomfort with the notion of having cameras tracking our vehicles all over the place, I'm not seeing the 'why' pinned down precisely. When out in public, you expose yourself to scrutiny -- whether by passers-by, cameras, car-tracking systems, etc. The UK measure is extreme, yes, but we're talking about the automation and scaling-up of existing abilities, not new ones. They could have posted cops every quarter-mile, and hoped they could read and remember plate numbers as well as an electronic system. There would be the same implications in terms of their ability to ticket you, track you, find a stolen (or not) vehicle, etc. but without the technology.

      Don't misunderstand me: I get a creepy feeling from this too. And I'm all about revolutions. But it's best to have clearly defined principles first. A new government would need to be limited appropriately, or the same thing would eventually happen again.

    9. Re:Another reason by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2, Interesting
      You're more likely to persuade people to vote for you than fight for you.

      Unfortunately, as the UK system so kindly demonstrated a few months ago, a "democracy" can still be a place where winning the support of only 22% of the population eligible to vote (and only thirtysomething percent of those who actually did vote), not to mention losing the popular vote in the largest single country in the union (England), is still enough to get you a comfortable absolute majority in parliament, with which you can pass any laws you want (assuming they even need new laws, rather than conveniently circumventing parliamentary scrutiny as this measure has, and assuming that your own party don't finally give in to the truly absurd and rebel against you for the first time in three administrations, only to cave in on the overall principle half an hour later anyway).

      Constitution or revolution, place bets now.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    10. Re:Another reason by drsquare · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The American revolution got rid of the old government and replaced it with one that's even worse, so what benefit would we have to having a revolution?

      If anyone in Britain actually gave a shit, and actually thought about what the government was doing rather than reading the opinions from The Sun, it would be easier to vote in a better government than having a revolution.

      But when a party can gain absolute power with 35% of the vote, it seems democracy is broken.

  7. Kinda Cool, Kinda weird by ViperG · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I remember seeing something like this technology being tested with police. They setup a unit like this (might be the same thing) on a busy road. Anyways, a few hours later, the system caught a few stolen cars, speeders, and few other things, that led to a record number of arrests that day.

    Kinda werid though, for some reason it reminds me of 1984.

    --
    Black Sky
    2D Elite Inspired Game
  8. interesting from the police side by mandreko · · Score: 5, Insightful

    this could be a very interesting tool. Other than it's privacy issues of course, it could be used in some neat ways.

    Let's say you have a criminal who has been busted for drug charges. You could then find out where he's been, and probably track down where he gets his stuff from, and take it straight up the channels to the big guys.

    Or does it not work that way?

    1. Re:interesting from the police side by LWATCDR · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And if you had stopped your car next to his to ask for directions it would look like you did a drug deal. Good enough reason to search your home, car, and office. I am sure that your boss, family, and the people living next door would understand...
      I am not a privacy nut but this seems just wrong.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    2. Re:interesting from the police side by ndixon · · Score: 2, Insightful
      It's not just about speeding. Check this blurb from the company supplying the tech:
      Derbyshire Constabulary has operated ANPR systems in some of its road policing unit vehicles since 1999 and will act as the Lead Authority on the framework. Whilst the contract sees Derbyshire working with Lincolnshire, the framework may also be utilised by a number of other East Midlands police forces.

      As part of the five year framework agreement, 'vehicles of interest' will be detected and stopped, using the new system to cross reference the data against a variety of databases including the Police National Computer (PNC), Local Force Intelligence Systems and other related databases, for example at the DVLA.

      I've nothing against this in principle, but given UK.gov's track record in implementing computer systems and maintaining "accurate" databases, I predict this system will be making regular appearances in RISKS.
      --
      Oh, how convenient: a theory about God that doesn't involve looking through a telescope.
  9. I predict... by Pantero+Blanco · · Score: 4, Insightful

    One group of people asking why the English let their government run roughshod over them, and a group of Brits claiming that they fully understand the reasons behind the measures their government is taking and are willing to endure scrutiny for the public good.

    1984 wasn't set in America.

    1. Re:I predict... by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I've always felt that if the government wants to put us under that much surveillance, then I think we should have surveillance on the politicians that give the thumbs up to these proposals, the people that administer the system and the people that access. They should be forced to wear microphones, they should be monitored, with their every move accessible by the public.

      If they really feel that privacy is an extinguishable notion, then they should be the ones to suffer that loss of it the very most. If they are unwilling to put up with this intrusion, then they can bloody well stop demanding intrusions on the common citizen.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:I predict... by DrSkwid · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Even as the poster of this story, I'm with you.

      Information wants to be free and all that.

      I think we should all have access to all the CCTV cameras.

      In Ian M. Bank's sci-fi books, the culture have droids that will follow you and record your every details so you can watch it later, and that other people can have access to. You can turn them off but people in The Culture generally have nothing to hide. If your citizens are hiding stuff, you're society is wrong :)

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    3. Re:I predict... by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 5, Insightful
      If they really feel that privacy is an extinguishable notion, then they should be the ones to suffer that loss of it the very most. If they are unwilling to put up with this intrusion, then they can bloody well stop demanding intrusions on the common citizen.
      No, in fact I suspect that politicians will be exempt from this system, perhaps by means of a 'VIP list', that lists license plates not to be sent down to the central servers. Otherwise, a terrorist could hack the system and find out where each politician is, for easy assasination. The current obession with security works for them the same way it works against us.
      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    4. Re:I predict... by egoshin · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, if there is a list of exceptional license plates when it could be stolen or system can be tested against it and criminal can just put a faked license plate to avoid a surveillance.

      1984 must be for anybody w/out exclusions ! You like it in full or you hate it in full - no tradeoffs.

    5. Re:I predict... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I think we should all have access to all the CCTV cameras.

      That would be grand. Unfortunately, they were all switched off for maintenance while the police held a few hundred people against their will on May Day the other year, right out in the open in London. Funny how that happened.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  10. angry voters, film at eleven? by Peter+La+Casse · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Perhaps now the "silent majority" (people who speed) will elect officials who will raise speed limits or lower speeding penalties.

    Ok, never mind.

  11. A culture prone to understatement. by Tackhead · · Score: 5, Funny
    > "The primary aims claimed for the system are tackling untaxed and uninsured vehicles, stolen cars and the considerably broader one of 'denying criminals the use of the roads.'

    In other news, the Atlantic Ocean is described as being "considerably broader" than the English Channel.

    But these are folks whose pet name for the gulf of water separating North America from Europe as "the pond".

    One might go further and suggest that British people are prone to occasional tendencies towards understatement.

  12. Speed Limit by PresidentEnder · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I just hope that the US doesn't adopt this idea.

    --
    I used to carry a bottle of whiskey for snake bite. And two snakes. -Nefarious Wheel
    1. Re:Speed Limit by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      There's no except. If you don't like speeding laws, or want them higher, work towards it.

      There is an "except." When the limits are set too low, no one else follows them. It is less safe to follow the limit than it is to speed up to the flow of traffic. So, to follow the laws while working to change them will make me less safe. Also, disobedience, like Rosa Parks, is more a catalyst for change than following the laws while working to change them.

      You can't complain when police enforce the law. That's their job.

      No, their job is to protect and serve (too bad none of them follow the mottos printed on their cars and badges). They whine endlessly about their rights of "discretion". That is, they are proud of the fact they are allowed to pick and choose which laws to enforce. Since that is something they have fought hard for, then why can't I hold it against them when they use their discretion to pick out victimless infringements that aren't even unsafe, when there are so many other valid ones that should be higher priority?

    2. Re:Speed Limit by mrchaotica · · Score: 2

      You're one of those people who does the speed limit in the fast lane, causing people to have to pass you on the right (or left, in Britain), aren't you? If so, here's a newsflash: your behavior is more dangerous than speeding!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  13. Not in America by WindBourne · · Score: 3, Informative
    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  14. This isn't so bad by mgv · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've always felt that these sorts of measures are alot better than the speed enforment that we have in Australia and many other places - The hidden multinova cameras that police now use here.

    If you really want to stop speeding, this is the way to do it. All the time. Everywhere.

    If it sounds radical, well at least it will mean that in the long run the speed limits themselves will have to be adjusted to something that is reasonable, rather than what has happened in most countries - speed limits that were set but which are only enforced a very tiny fraction of the time.

    Also, getting done for doing too fast an average speed is far more important than getting unlucky for doing an instantaneous speed that is too fast at some random point in your trip. Almost everyone speeds a little at some time - unless you only use cruise control to drive with you will always run the risk of going too fast at some point when you aren't looking at your speedo. (And, its not exactly safe to drive the whole trip whilst looking only at your speed)

    As for the privacy issues.

    Well, I think its a little too late for anyone in the UK (maybe anywhere, really) to get worried about that. Look at the congestion tax in the UK (Automatic licence plate recognition). Look also at the ability to obtain a list of every base station that your mobile is associated with - the phone companies can do this if requested by a magistrate, although that usually only done in murder cases or similar. Look at the number of CCTV's that proliferate in every public place.

    Unfortunatly, the invasion into our privacy has only just begun. There is no techonlogical way to avoid this - it will only get worse. Soon enough automatic facial recognition will be connected to all the CCTV's around and you will be trackable just for being visible. You can identify people by the way that they walk. Some systems now can identify potential suicides in the happening in train stations by the typical behaviour people make prior to jumping in front of trains.

    The only solution to the privacy issues are legislative ones. You can't stop this level of data collection anymore, all we can do is ensure that only certain legitimate uses for it exist. This is the only way that any of us will have real protection in the future - if its in a constitution or in legislation.

    Just my 2c worth,

    Michael

    --
    There is no cryptographic solution to the problem where the intended receiver and the attacker are the same entity.
    1. Re:This isn't so bad by oolon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The thing is speeding is not actually the problem they need to solve, accidents are. With the level of cameras now on the road, I find I am paying far more attention to, what the last speed sign said, where the next camera is and how fast I am going. However what i probably should be doing is looking at the road conditions, other vehicles and people/objects near the road for potental hazards. When i drove through nottingham on the M1 there is an average speed check, and it keeps you on edge all the time, the road was of minor importance like wise other cars, my speed was my primary consern as it was with other drivers, you can see this from cars "wandering" onto the lane divisions. Two months ago I got my first speeding ticket ever and have been driving for 10 years. Not to much of a problem, but its getting easier to make mistakes and get caught, at 3+ points each its getting all to easy to hit 12 points in 3 years and get banned. I am starting to think people should get one "free" offence a year.

      James

    2. Re:This isn't so bad by Bogtha · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Two months ago I got my first speeding ticket ever and have been driving for 10 years. Not to much of a problem, but its getting easier to make mistakes and get caught, at 3+ points each its getting all to easy to hit 12 points in 3 years and get banned. I am starting to think people should get one "free" offence a year.

      Why? So that people can keep speeding, keep getting caught, and keep getting away with it? A law isn't wrong just because you could get away with it easily before but can't any more. The idea is that you either don't speed (hence not having to pay attention to where the speed cameras are, or that you get caught and, if you don't learn your lesson (as exemplified by repeat offences), you get banned.

      Giving people "free passes" completely undermines that for no reason. You appear to have the following thought process:

      1. I have been speeding for years.
      2. The government hasn't punished me for this before.
      3. I am not a bad person.
      4. From 1, 2 and 3: My speeding is not wrong and shouldn't be punished.
      5. From 4: The government has recently started punishing me for this.
      6. From 5: The government is obviously wrong to punish me for this.
      7. From 6: People like me should be let off.

      4 is wrong. Speeding is wrong. Just because you are getting caught now, it doesn't mean it wasn't wrong before. If you don't want to get banned from driving, then there's a simple, obvious answer: slow down. Operating something as dangerous as a car in public is a privilege, not a right, and if you can't comply with basic safety laws, that privilege should be revoked.

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    3. Re:This isn't so bad by Bogtha · · Score: 2, Insightful

      setting a speed limit lower than what most drivers drive at IS wrong

      Why? The limit isn't there to make you feel better about the speed you drive at, it's there to slow you down to a safer speed.

      BTW, travel is a RIGHT and not a privilidge.

      But I didn't say "travel", I said "operating something as dangerous as a car in public". You can travel by other means if you aren't willing to comply with safety laws regarding cars.

      just because you happen to use a *car* does not make it any less of a right.

      Cars are very dangerous things. A quarter of a million people were hurt in UK road accidents in 2003, thirty thousand of those injuries were serious. Thousands died.

      So long as improperly-operated cars continue to kill people every day, it is not a right to operate a car, but a privilege.

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    4. Re:This isn't so bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Different vehicles operate under different tolerances. Whipping around a corner in a SUV at 80 mph is always dangerous; doing so in a low-slung roadster may not be.

      The fact of the matter is that speed is only ONE of a number of variables that define how safe a particular trip may be. The road conditions, other vehicles on the road, and skill and attentiveness of the driver are also major components.

      So it really doesn't make sense to say that a particular speed makes a road 'safe'. It does not. The attentiveness and sane driving practices of those on the road make it safe.

      What the GP was really getting at is the fact that speed limits are ARBITRARY and inflexible and do not always take into account the real conditions of the road.

      The real solution to solving the traffic accident problem is to make it harder to get a license. Force more comprehensive driver training. Ruthlessly strip bad/unsafe drivers of their licenses. And for fuck's sake, don't let the elderly drive- if you want to talk about unsafe, take a look at the way that reaction time decreases with age. Oh, and ultimately, figure out how to make public transit or intelligent road systems work!

      Driving at a faster speed than the number on a sign is not immoral, so stop pretending like it is. Driving dangerously is. There IS a difference. Something is not automatically bad just because you are told it is.

    5. Re:This isn't so bad by Bogtha · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The fact of the matter is that speed is only ONE of a number of variables that define how safe a particular trip may be. The road conditions, other vehicles on the road, and skill and attentiveness of the driver are also major components.

      Speed can be objectively measured and legislated. You can't make rainy, dark nights illegal. You can't measure how attentive a driver is as he passes. We already bar the less skillful from driving (you need to pass a test before getting a driving license).

      I'm not stupid, I know that speed is just one factor. But it's an important one, and an easily controlled one.

      So it really doesn't make sense to say that a particular speed makes a road 'safe'. It does not.

      But speed limits aren't based on that. Speed limits are based on the idea that a particular speed makes a road unsafe. And that's obviously true. You might argue that particular limits in particular locations are unreasonable, but that doesn't invalidate speed limits as a concept.

      Driving at a faster speed than the number on a sign is not immoral, so stop pretending like it is. Driving dangerously is.

      The second you start driving faster than people can get out of the way, you are putting people at risk. That's okay, as a society we've learned various practices to reduce that risk to a socially acceptable level. Imposing upper limits on speed is one of those practices. Who are you to decide that the rules don't apply to you? The rules that are there to reduce that risk? Because you think you are a better driver than average? Newsflash: everybody thinks they are better drivers than average.

      Something is not automatically bad just because you are told it is.

      And something is not automatically okay just because you have been getting away with it for a long time.

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    6. Re:This isn't so bad by mattwarden · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The thing is speeding is not actually the problem they need to solve, accidents are

      In my mind, that is the least reason to stop speeding. The maximum speed on highways has a huge effect on gasoline consumption (and therefore its environmental effects) and (relatedly) energy prices. You can see this by looking at graphs of consumption before and after the speed limit in the US was raised from 55 to 65.

    7. Re:This isn't so bad by Gimble · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm sorry, I've been driving for a long time and NEVER had a speeding ticket. Obviously this means that I've never been caught, but seriously for the last 10 years I've tried really hard not to exceed ANY speed limit, particularly in built up areas.

      It really isn't that difficult to keep to the speed limit. You manage to keep it on the tarmac, why not below the limit, or are your driving skills seriously that poor?

      It really incenses me when thoughtless commuters pile through my village, where there is a 30MPH limit, at 40+. There are schools on both sides of the two main roads as well as housing and kids are always crossing the roads. A very busy beach area near me has a 15MPH limit, and I've nearly had riots because I stick to the limit.

      I have no problems with a speeder getting hit really hard with fines, bans, increased insurance etc. but I am against this data being used for ANY other purpose.

  15. The only thing I have a problem with by Bazzalisk · · Score: 5, Interesting

    is keeping the records for two years - I can't see any good reason for that. The cameras themselves aren't much different from the camera system already used to maintain the congestuion charge in central london and are overall a Good Thing. (As a cyclist I find that the largest regular threat to my life tends to originate from speeding/incompetent motorists - and I want them to be caught and have their licenses revoked)

    --
    James P. Barrett
  16. No intent proven by ear1grey · · Score: 3, Informative
    ... one every quarter of a mile on motorways quite clearly means they'll be used to enforce speed limits as well...

    The regularity of the cameras is irrelevant, you only have to know the distance between them, and ensure their clocks are in sync to be able to issue a speeding ticket.

    So thinking around the subject:

    • If you want to monitor road usage to check up on tax discs you only need one set of ANPR cameras between each junction.
    • If you want to monitor speed over distance you need two or more APNR camera sets.
    • Having multiple regular cameras makes it easier to passively monitor the progress of vehicles. What this will give the government/police is the ability to track certain people, and more importantly, to gain an understanding of road usage patterns.
  17. They have given you trouble! by kotku · · Score: 2, Funny

    > The UK Gov't hasn't given us a whole heck of a lot of trouble since...

    Really they fuc8ed you over big time. If they hadn't gone with you on the Iraq war fiasco then Iraq II would not have happened and you Yanks would still have a reasonably good international reputation. The UK gov plan is to make the US look so bad that the UK can lead Europe as this centuries only super power.

    God shave the Queen!

    --
    The bikini - security through obscurity since 1943
  18. I've got a bike, by Philip+K+Dickhead · · Score: 4, Funny

    you can ride it if you like
    It's got a basket, a bell that rings
    and things to make it look good
    I'd give it to you if I could,
    but I borrowed it

    Syd Barrett escapes the universal monitoring!

    --
    "Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
  19. A very moral government by FishandChips · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Every Western country is facing Big Brother issues. However, I wonder if the UK has created its own issue here: whether it is wise or moral to criminalize huge numbers of the population with the aim of raising extra revenue for the government. Few in the UK would argue that the present system of speed cameras (they are called Gatso cameras) is designed for much else other than making money for the state.

    I guess if a government goes about giving very large numbers of otherwise law-abiding citizens a criminal record they should not expect much more than cynicism when it comes to other social problems. We are then all the losers.

    A by-product of the current obsession with safety is that enormous sums have to be spent on repairing emergency vehicles whose suspension is wrecked going over speed bumps in urban areas. In addition, more acute cases die because it takes longer for an ambulance to get them to hospital and the ride there is bumpy to say the least. It might even turn out that the safety obsession kills more people than it is intended to save.

    Meanwhile, new licensing laws in the UK permitting the sale of alcohol 24/7 promise many mores deaths from alcohol abuse and its fallout. Liver disease from alcohol abuse among those under 30 is several hundred per cent higher than it was even twenty years ago. Apparently it's OK to drink yourself to death in the UK, but woe betide you if you get in an automobile stone cold sober.

    --
    Las qué passoun
    tournoun pas maï
    1. Re:A very moral government by bnenning · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It might even turn out that the safety obsession kills more people than it is intended to save.

      Yes; for example it's virtually certain that airline "safety" regulations have led to more deaths. As air travel becomes more inconvenient and expensive, marginal travelers will choose to drive instead, which is far more dangerous per mile.

      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
  20. Why is speeding a crime? by Transcendent · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What I don't understand is why speeding is so strictly enforced with this system. It's an entirely arbitrary system (well, loosely based on some aspect of the road) that is outdated for current car designs. Do you think my 1,500lb escort should have the same speed limit as some guys 2 ton '88 Cadillac, or an H2? Should I be forced to drive at the same speed as a senile senior citizen?

    What about other circumstances where I sped up to avoid an accident, or to avoid further traffic congestion (as in moving into place to merge into an open spot rather than having 10 people brake behind you)?

  21. Re:Quarter miles? by Bazzalisk · · Score: 3, Informative

    No, bizarely all our road lengths are still measured in imperial units - even though every other damned thing is metric (except milk and beer which come in pints).

    --
    James P. Barrett
  22. Re:Much fairer speeding fines by ztransform · · Score: 2, Funny
    I have to say I totally agree with this.

    There are times when the offence of speeding is hardly justified as a safety issue. Overtaking is one such time when, done properly, one may need to exceed the speed of the vehicle one is passing..

    Of course one could have fun with this. After passing one vehicle registration plate recognition camera at 150MPH one could slam on the brakes and park on the motorway for a minute or so.. then drop the clutch and zoom off again..!

  23. Fight this by cortana · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you have not done so already, get in contact with your local branch of No2ID. Sign the I refuse pledge (or at least the I support pledge). Lobby your MP and your councillors: many councils across the UK are passing resolutions to forbid government services from requiring their users to have ID cards.

  24. Not new - already in use by mustafap · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This has already been reported by the bbc ( more reliable than The Register ) where a camera has been used to record car licence plates on entry to a car park, and generate automatic fines if a matching parking ticket was not purchased.

    The system failed miserably because it falsely recorded cars *passing by* the car park.

    It's a real intrusion, but on the other hand, try getting compensation if you are in an accident with someone driving without insurance.

    I'll stick to monitoring speed cameras :o)

    --
    Open Source Drum Kit, LPLC deve board - mjhdesigns.com
  25. Let's watch the watchers by Paul+Carver · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The romans posed the question "Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes?"

    I would be in favor of a system to track the movements of all cars and issue speeding violations as long as the data is a matter of public record and it can be proven (for example, via Freedom of Information requests) that all traffic regulations are being strictly enforce on all public officials, including elected official, appointed official, off duty police and their families, friends, and relatives, and anybody else in a position of influence.

    If a speed limit is too low, I'm sure it would get rapidly fixed if there were 100% enforcement of fines and penalties against senators and representatives.

    If a speed limit is, in fact, valid and legitimate for safety reasons then 100% enforcement is certainly a good thing.

    The problem occurs when traffic regulations are constructed in such a way that everybody violates them because they are unreasonable and the police use them as a means of selectively grabbing people they have an illegitimate beef against.

  26. Circumvention by ktappe · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I see a sudden market emerging for adhesive tape for modifying license plate numbers/letters to confuse the cameras. WIth little effort 5's make great 6's, 0's and 3's transmogrify into 8's, C's become 0's. And suddenly your car becomes anonymous. *cough* Not that I advocate this of course. -Kurt

    --
    "We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
  27. Why upset by WindBourne · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is simply a voluntary tax system. Want to help your gov.? Simply speed.

    Besides, maybe they use the new money to fix some of the other systems or perhaps increase the police.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:Why upset by D-Cypell · · Score: 5, Informative

      maybe they use the new money to fix some of the other systems or perhaps increase the police.

      Unfortunatly, it is more likely that the money will be distributed around the various family members of government officials who 'happen' to own services companies who amazingly seem to always win those cushy government contracts.

      It is not widely known that the NHS often use private ambulance companies. When my mother was in the hospital I got talking to a few staff at the hospital and they let me on on how much the NHS pays for a 15 min ambulance journey between two London hospitals. It is an absolutely disgusting figure and given that my terminally ill mother was left in a seriously uncomfortable state for hours while she waited for an ambulance I can assure you that we do not get our money's worth.

      They will put up speed cameras to generate wealth for a government who tells us that it is a choice between raised 'tax' or lower public spending. Very rarely will they mention the waste that is so pervasive in our public services. I suspect because if anyone were to look into the books to investigate this waste they would find corruption that runs all the way up to downing street.

      It is just easier to pretend there isnt a distinction between driving fast and driving dangerously (and I have seen dangerous driving within the speed limit and also quite safe driving above the speed limit). Of course, it is far more difficult to punish dangerous driving using a device that will work 24/7/365 and doesnt require a salary!

  28. Sadness by A+beautiful+mind · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm feeling sad that these kind of measures can be introduced in the UK and the citizens of the UK doesn't feel the need to throw those responsible for this surveilance into the ocean or something.

    Seriously, why is it, that we have to live in such a passive society? Like if it would have been bred for obedience.

    First, there were cameras on the streets and noone said a word
    Then, there were monitoring of cars and noone said a word
    ...
    Finally, when I got stripped from all my freedoms, labeled a criminal, then, there was noone to say a word.

    Sad.

    --
    It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
    Be yourself no matter what they say
  29. How else do you expect them to pay for the system? by Fallen+Kell · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I mean seriously... Of coarse speeding tickets will be issued with it. That is how they will raise funding for it. However, figuring out how much they were speeding is a whole different story altogether... Now grant it, the 1/4 mile distance will limit some of the speeds, but in theory, someone could hit 100+ mph and slow back down to 5 mph before they hit the next scanner, thus the overall time spent going the 1/4 mile could still be same time spent for going that distance as it would if you simply went the speed limit.

    --
    We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
  30. Re:wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't normally like to resort to ad hominem attacks, but you are a moron for believing this.

    There are so many problems with government organizations having this level of control over their citizenry. Starting with the people actually doing the control, who do they get to monitor these systems? What if it's some creepy guy trying to stalk women with this technology? What if it's someone trying to use knowledge of your actions to blackmail you? If I'm working the camera, and I see you walking down the street holding hands with one woman, then the next day another woman, I could demand that you pay me money or I'll let them know about each other, etc. This is one example but you can see many more. What if I'm not even working for the government, but I hack the system to gain access to this kind of information?

    At a higher level, what's legal and what's not is always subject to change. You could be subject to hundreds of dollars in fines every day just for doing something that otherwise seems ordinary. See the above comment about the man asking a drug offender for directions. Nothing illegal took place, but in the investigation of the drug offender, while trying to find his customers and sources, you would get flagged for investigation and would be subject to search and arrest. Just getting arrested is often enough for you to lose your job and be embarassed by your friends, colleagues and family.

    I can go on, but I hope that you see why your line of thinking that this is "only bad for bad people" is flawed.

  31. do, or do not, there is no try by PMuse · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Could the stated goals not be acheived more cheaply simply by fitting each vehicle with a transponder? Anything that must be installed every quarter mile of every road will necessarily be ungodly expensive.

    Vehicles operating without a transponder would be fined steeply. A few random checks would ensure compliance.

    It's one thing to be an evil overlord, but there's no excuse for being an expensive and incompetent evil overlord.

    --
    "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
  32. Re:wow by Hogwash+McFly · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So how about we put cameras in every home, in order to detect criminal activities?

    You've got nothing to hide, so it's all fine and dandy, right? After all, why watch you? You're just doing your average activities, right?

    --
    Mother, do you think they'll like this sig?
  33. Nah, bollocks by Cally · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Sorry, I'm a big Register fan, but they're wrong about this. It's not going to happen. Consider that the existing old-skool 'GATSOs' are now pretty universally revived and being deactivated (latest snippet was research demonstrating dangerous bunching on the M4 where they were introduced as a trial.) I drive past 2 or 3 on my daily commute, virtually always over the speed limit, and I've driven round the SE and London - been flashed once or twice but never fined, and these days I don't even get flashed.

    Bear in mind that Blair's ability to railroad through deeply unpopular legislation is seriously damaged after losing the "90 days" vote last week. The PLP are restive and not likely to rubberstamp deeply unpopular legislation.

    I've been had by the London congestion charge system many times, which is always a pain but overall I don't moan about it because it's a Good Thing to ration traffic in central london (for lots of reasons.) That argument won't wash outside of city centres though.

    --
    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
  34. Variable speed limits by amembleton · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It seems that the reason why they want a camera every 400 yards is so that they can enforce variable speed limits. From the article: "400 yards along motorways, and a trial on the M42 near Birmingham will first be used to enforce variable speed limits".

    I last drove along the M42 just over a week ago, and there are plenty of new temporary speed limit signs, one above each lane. These were in use to slow the traffic down to help remove a traffic jam. It seems that all of this has been put in with the intention of these camera trials.

    Personally, I think this is a good idea. Variable speed limits might help to curb congestion, especially on the M42 which regularly gets jammed with traffic going to the NEC and the many motorways that connect to it. We have had variable speed limits in the UK for a while now, but everyone (including the police) ignores them.

    In the UK, driving is a privilage and not a right. You are issued with a licence which of course can be revoked by a court. A lot of speed limits do seem like BS, and the motorway speed limit IMHO ought to be 80, but if everyone is doing the same speed things might be safer.

    The only problem I have with this, is that they want to hold the records for two years. Why? This will probably get tied into our expensive ID cards. Might be time to migrate.

  35. Oh, those European countries by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 2, Funny
    Sweden: Land of meatballs, Volvos, and The Pirate Bay.

    Britain: Land of really stupid criminals who don't know enough to switch license plates before committing a crime with a car.

    Seems to me that Q knew what he was doing when he gave James Bond an Aston Martin with changeable license plates.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  36. Well, apart from the matter of evidence by Space+cowboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... despite the UK's continual attempts to make it easier to incarcerate people without trial, it does require motive, means, and opportunity, not to mention some evidence of a crime, rather than a conversation to get arrested/charged. There is always the option of wrongful arrest, if the police try to take it too far...

    In general, though, I'm very disappointed. Christ, I thought geting rid of "lockemup, lockemALLup" Blunkett was a good thing. Looks like we swapped the frying pan for the fire :-(

    Simon

    --
    Physicists get Hadrons!
  37. You've made some spelling mistakes by uujjj · · Score: 2, Funny

    Errr, hang on a second. I think you'll find that the US uses Imperial (as in British) units. Not the other way around. Well most of the time - there are of course the bastardised Imperial units the US uses like larger fl. oz, fewer fl. oz to the pint (and thus smaller gallons), and smaller tonnes.
    I think you meant bastardized and tons. When will these Brits learn to spell?

  38. Nobody remembers the acquittal, just the arrest by crimethinker · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Please crawl out from under the rock where you've been living.

    At least here in the U.S., the arrest gets all the press. An acquittal NEVER gets nearly as much press. Case in point, recently nine women attending two fraternity parties near the University of Colorado were taken to the hospital for alcohol poisoning. It was front-page news for several days when two of the women apparently tested positive for GHB, a "date-rape" drug. One of the frats has actually had its local chapter closed down for the rest of the year, maybe permanently.

    Fast-forward several weeks, and guess what, the "quickie" test for GHB has a non-zero occurence of false positives. The more expensive, accurate, and time-consuming lab test came back negative on all nine women. Was it front page news for over a week that "frats didn't drug women after all"? I'll let you guess at the answer.

    I had a point somewhere in there. Oh yeah, I'd prefer not to be arrested just because I happened to come into casual contact with a criminal.

    -paul

    --
    Pistol caliber is like religion: everyone has their favourite, and theirs is the only right choice.
    1. Re:Nobody remembers the acquittal, just the arrest by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2, Insightful
      ...you don't get arrested for having a conversation, no matter whom it was with...

      On the contrary. That is exactly the excuse that has been offered to justify detaining thousands of people under anti-terrorism legislation since 11 September 2001. Of those people, fewer than half have ever even been charged with a terrorism-related offence, and AFAIK the total convictions under that legislation so far remain in single figures -- around 1/10,000th of those arrested under it. That's not good law, that's a police state.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  39. Slashdot, YOU SUCK! (aka Texas tried this...) by arfonrg · · Score: 2

    I submitted the story about Texas trying to do this (almost this EXACT story) but with ACTIVE RFID and yesterday and it was REJECTED! WTF!?!

    If anyone cares, here's two write up on Texas' attempt from a both sides of the political aisle:

    http://journals.aol.com/republicanjen/RepublicanJe n/entries/1451
    http://www.houstondemocrats.com/archives/2005/04/n ow_this_worrie.html

    --
    Your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
  40. Re:A little difference by Kjella · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A home is a private place, a street is a public place. Shall I draw a diagram?

    And if you have absolutely no privacy in public? Even if you walk past CCTV cameras, you are primarily observed, not tracked. In general, there is no record of you being there. I would certainly feel that a full record of my public movements would be an invasion of my privacy. Even big celebreties tend to get some privacy. Try these on for size, all "public" facts:

    Who bought condoms last week.
    Who slept where, either going away or coming over.
    Who went to Alcoholics Anonymous.
    Who went to see Fahrenheit 9/11 in cinema.
    Who went to a mosque last week.

    That's a lot of social, political, religious and other profiling for each and every citizen. In general, I place a big difference between being observed and being tracked, and what is being described here is a tracking system. Would you really like to have the government keep a huge file on everything and everyone? Move to DDR, ca. 1970 but don't bring that society here. We don't need nor want it.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  41. Re:wow by modecx · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Oh, this goddamned stupid argument again. So, if you're not committing crimes, why don't we stick a camera up your ass so you can have a perpetual colonsocopy? Obviously, it would be good for your health, no? It could have embedded GPS, and remote monitoring so in the event that you develop a polyp the doctors can come and tear you out of your mistress' bed and take that sucker out!

    Maybe some of us don't like living under a microscope, for any reason? Could increase your safety in a way significantly relative to the amount of privacy (every)one gives up? I sincerely doubt it.

    I'll take my chances with the fucking speeders and terrorists, thanks.

    --
    Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
  42. Whys is this so hard to understand? by arfonrg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted - and you create a nation of law-breakers - and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Rearden, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with."- Ayn Rand, "Atlas Shrugged"

    --
    Your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
  43. Re:wow by egoshin · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Which is why Im personally fine with the whole idea. Why track me? I go to college and do collegey type things, then on weekends I work in a shop doing shoppy things.
    "Why track me?" - just to be sure that you do not visit a meeting with opposition or whatever. If you do - you would be jailed for 90 days to limit a damage for goverment party.

    More exactly - just to find out who is an opposition LEADER before people start listening and vote. And jail him for 90 days.
  44. Whose problem? This is just a power play. by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Speeding is a problem

    That is very debatable. The speed limits here in the UK are now so absurd in many places that the vast majority of motorists exceed the limit, yet no accidents ever result (literally; speed limits have been dropped on roads that haven't had even a minor injury accident in a decade).

    This is just another power play by Blair's dictatorship and his ever more draconian Home Secretaries, right along with ID cards for everyone, the National Identity Register, electronic strip searching on the way onto the London Underground, the RIP Act, detention without trial for as long as they can get away with, installing CCTV everywhere (yes, we're still the most spied-upon nation in the world), reversing the burden of proof and/or attempting to do away with jury trials for increasing numbers of cases...

    All of these things, of course, are "justified" by arguing that they increase national security, help to prevent crime, or otherwise benefit Joe Public. Unless he's in the wrong place at the wrong time, in which case he loses his benefits because some junior staffer in a government office mistyped one number out of 1,000 they entered that day into the master database. Or the ANPR system misreads a number plate, and sends him a fine for doing the physically impossible, which he then has to challenge in court after several weeks of concern, with no compensation for the time wasted or grief caused. Or his daughter's the one being rendered naked for the pervert watching the screens at the Underground station. Or he's late for the train, and since he ran through the screen he's obviously a terrorist so they shoot him dead. Or he's black, old, bald, young, or a registered member of an opposition political party, the biometric recognition doesn't work, and he's held for three months as a suspected terrorist on the whim of a senior politician, by which time he's lost his job, his home, and the trust of all his family and friends, not to mention the ability to challenge the statements of absolute fact issued by our political leaders (and I use the term loosely, since they didn't even win the popular vote in England, never mind an overall majority that might justify their absolute control of parliament, not that this particular abuse ever went before parliament) to justify all these Big Brother efforts.

    I used to think the tin foil hat brigade were eccentrics. In recent years, looking at the direction New Labour have taken our government, I think the sooner we have a written constitution and a constitutional court above parliament and answerable only to the public, the better.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    1. Re:Whose problem? This is just a power play. by tomboy17 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Am I the only one who wishes the government in the U.S. would implement something like this?

      Don't get me wrong, I speed all the time under the current system, just like everyone else. But the two times in my life I've been pulled over I felt it was unfair -- why? because I knew lots of people (just like me) had gotten away with far worse hundreds of times. If the rates really are unreasonable, there will be a demand to change them once they're universally enforced.

      The traffic laws as they now exist are simply an excuse for police to pull over whoever they want to and harass them. Traffic laws are the most common contact citizens in the U.S. anyway have with the law, and the blatant unfairness in traffic laws leads to a general cynicism about the application of laws as a whole.

      I for one welcome the day when all our cars have sensors on them and speed limits get automatically enforced. But, far more important, I would love it if sensors on the road could detect tailgating and send tickets for that. That would make me very happy.

    2. Re:Whose problem? This is just a power play. by nut · · Score: 3, Interesting
      New Zealand doesn't have a Constitution, it has a Treaty. I won't try to explain it, as someone else has done a much better job here. Basically NZ as a country has existed from this date - it may be the only colonial country where the aboriginal people did give their legal blessing to legal and political systems derived from Britain.

      Mind some people didn't stop fighting for quite a few years after this date, and even today there are outstanding issues...

      By and large, I'm proud to say, we have given to the hysteria of the Threat Of Terror less than many places, but we have at least one stain on our human rights record that derives from this.

      --
      Never trust a man in a blue trench coat, Never drive a car when you're dead
    3. Re:Whose problem? This is just a power play. by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 3, Informative
      Tony Blair's government seems to think that Big Brother (1984 version) was way to moderate with surveyance, and would love to have people issued with passes that can be checked every 100m by Zigbee or Bluetooth or something.

      The British government has proposed a "National Corriculum" for Under 5 year olds and in a year when there are riots in Paris. (The Paris uprising in 1968 was because the teaching curriculum was too rigid).

      And if you don't support him, you must be an Al Quaida suporter. A member of his own party was arrested at the party conference for pointing out that Jack Straw is completely dishonest. He was charged under the Prevention of Terrorism act. However, they want the power to hold people for 90 days with no charge whatever, in case they notice that some other ministers are "economical with the truth".

      The words neurotic, obsesssive, compulsive, posessive, paranoid, manic, and several less polite ones come to mind.

      The only reason they are in power is because "her majesty's Loyal opposition"'s slogan is "we are the party of convictions" - most have several for corruption, libel, slander, purjury, and other things that normally bar you from high office.

      I suspect that the Robert Mugabe's complaints against Blair are fuelled by jelousy over the ease with which these controls are imposed (no need to deport inner city kids to remote Scottish islands, etc).

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    4. Re:Whose problem? This is just a power play. by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What you say is true, but to be brutally honest, I have little sympathy if someone moves into a house next to a road and then complains about noise. That house was probably available significantly cheaper than others like it but away from roads, and it's not like it's hard to spot a road outside. Personally, I'd love to buy my own home, but since I can't afford one that I want, I have to accept renting for now. These are voluntary choices.

      Having said that, where local conditions would be worsened through noise, for example because raising the speed limit is being proposed (not that there's any mechanism to actually do that any more anyway) or because new developments are likely to increase the volume of traffic or change its nature (e.g., more heavy trucks using the road) then adjusting a speed limit to compensate is fair enough.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    5. Re:Whose problem? This is just a power play. by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I do understand your argument, and on the face of it I agree that it has merit, too. The thing is, driving psychology is a funny thing, and history and research tell us that speed limits don't really work at all when set according to current policy, and can actually be counter-productive if set too low.

      For example, you get roads with very low speed limits, which drivers routinely exceed by a large margin. If the limit is raised by 10mph to something more realistic, it's not unusual for the average speed to fall, because most drivers will prefer to stick to a limit they perceive as reasonable rather than break the law but only by a few mph. This isn't a hypothetical, unlike the claims made by those who say a motorway limit of 80mph would "obviously" mean everyone driving at 90mph when they do 80 now. This is based on measuring what actually happens when the change is made.

      Similarly funny things happen with the currently faddish 20mph limits in the UK. If the road is genuinely only safe to travel at 20mph, the vast majority of drivers will reduce their speed to that level anyway, even without a 20mph limit. This is common on narrow back streets full of parked cars and such. OTOH, when major roads are shut down to 20mph for a mile or more, because there is a school somewhere within a half-mile radius, drivers will either ignore the speed limit when there aren't zillions of kids around at going home time, or drive so slowly that they actually lose focus and don't concentrate as much because it's too "easy" to hold their attention. The latter is far more dangerous, because an alert and aware driver travelling at 30mph is less of a hazard to children coming out of school than an inattentive driver doing 20mph.

      This is why the whole "speed kills" argument is daft. Reducing speeds, or speed limits, does not automatically equate to lower casualty rates. If we really care about saving lives rather than Whitehall PR, we should be setting all speed limits at a level where they are a realistic balance between making progress and safe and considerate driving, and then enforcing those limits against those who are genuinely dangerous and inconsiderate.

      Incidentally, my opposition to this is much more a principle thing than a desire to speed myself. I know my WRX could easily beat the chavs with large exhausts and LEDs off the lights, and I'm confident that as an experienced and well-trained driver (far more than just lessons to pass a test) I could handle my vehicle safely at much higher speeds than I'm ever likely to drive on a British road, so I have nothing to prove by speeding like a nutter around town. As you say, that is what we have track days for. ;-)

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  45. This will cost money (not make money) by henni16 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think that this will probably cost them money.
    If you know that you will be "caught" and have to pay everytime you speed, you probably won't do it if you really don't have to.
    So my guess is that they will spend a lot of money to install such a system and afterwards will lose lots of money because of less people speeding.
    I think it is more likely that the system will be used to create a giant toll system.

  46. Re:Truth about TAX in UK by fishbowl · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "wait...i can have 4 kids, sit on my ass all day, get a free house, free dental, free health and make £40,000 a yer."

    So you won't get with the program. Whose fault is that?

    "Can i come to USA?"

    I thought the USA was the laughing stock of the world, where everybody is fat and supports a government of morons and warmongers.

    --
    -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  47. Re:A little difference by JWtW · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Very insightful comment. However, "Mrs Grundy" is only prevalent in the smaller towns and nicer neighborhoods. The more dense the population, the harder it is for her to keep track.

    If you'll allow me to expand on this: (whoops--too late :-)
    Anyone that chooses to live in 'any' societal setting is subject to some form of scrutiny. Whether it's speeding/red-light/street cameras, "Mrs. Grundy", or the nice folks waiting for the next asteroid to come pick you up....SOMEBODY is watching you, and your actions are kept in an archive--somewhere.

    Now, to get to the meat of the topic. My problem with 'this' kind of scrutiny is that it is more profit-driven than it is safety/public interest driven. I'm sure that there are statistics that can quote 'lives saved', or 'terrorists thwarted', but all I hear on the news about these cameras is the amount of revenue generated for the city. I'm sure the city isn't the only one profiting either. Someone created the technology, and someone maitains the system. It's a win-win situation for the profiteers, but we ("...the so-called 'normal' human beings") lose.

    They accept our taxes to pay for the system, and they profit from the revenues generated.

  48. Re:wow by Eideewt · · Score: 2, Funny

    What happens when you do feel the need to commit a crime? You're not going to be too happy then are you?

  49. This clearly isn't about speeding. by edunbar93 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This isn't about catching speeders. It's about tracking your each and every move, for ever and ever. I'd be nervous about this if they were keeping records for two *weeks*, nevermind two *years*. What they really want is to be able to say "Where is license plate #27D726" at any given moment in time, so that they can put "the bad guys" away. The definition of "the bad guys" can easily change with the wind, and they'll have the security net to find and catch all the homosexuals, johns, pot-smokers, poker players, or any other evil-criminal-du-jour. Stupid laws that have made criminals of everyone have been passed before, and will pass in the future. This is just stupid.

    --
    "No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
  50. Brazil by sremick · · Score: 3, Funny

    "I hearby inform you under powers entrusted to me under section 47, paragraph 7 of council order numbr 438476, that Mister Buttle, Archibald residing at 412 North Tower Shangri-La Towers has been invited to assist the Ministry of Information with certain inquiries, and that he is liable to certain financial obligations as specified in council order RV/CZ/907/X. Sign here, please. Thank you. That is your receipt for your husband, and here is my receipt for your receipt."

  51. Re:A little difference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    We (the so-called "normal" human beings) place an importance to our privacy that sets the need to be not-monitored in our homes higher than the need to avoid some crimes that could possibly happen.

    And some of us (less pretentious) folks "place an importance to our privacy that sets the need to be not-monitored [anywhere] higher than the need to avoid some crimes that could possibly happen."

    On the other hand, our behavior in public places is already monitored by Mrs. Grundy, so having a camera filming us in those circumstances will not make much difference in our personal sense of privacy.

    Yeah, because having a nosy neighbor is exactly like having hundreds (thousands!) of hours of video footage of you stored away in digital format. Having a person see you walk down the street is exactly like having a second-by-second record of where you are stored in some government computer.

    Forget the diagram, you're off the map.

  52. Re:One more time... by joe_n_bloe · · Score: 2, Insightful
    So why is it that citizens can't stalk one another while we pay governments to stalk every single one of us?

    "Driving is a privilege" is no more sensible than "walking around outside is a privilege." How about "appearing in a public place without having every minute detail of your appearance and habits scanned and logged forever along with the same information about everyone else in a location and medium unknown and inaccessible to you ... is a privilege."

  53. Re:The irony by symbolic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Very rarely will they mention the waste that is so pervasive in our public services.

    It might be interesting to note that (at least in the US) the public has been clamoring for the privitization of certain government services, thinking it would save money. The joke's on them. Many private companies, once they get their hand on the public teat, won't let go, and milk it for all they can. This is where these astronomically-prised ambulance rides come in. I can't seem to figure it out, but people in government that are responsible for spending money (never mind wisely, because that clearly doesn't happen), think this is OK. The government just can't seem to get away from this mindset that has them paying several times what a normal person with half a brain would end up paying for the same thing.

  54. Who watches the watchers by scotbot · · Score: 2, Informative

    They were also conveniently not working the day of the London tube and bus bombings on 7/7. They even tried that scam the day Jean Charles de Menezes was gunned down at point blank after calmly walking through the ticket barriers, stopping to buy a newspaper and entering and sitting down in the tube train. Then it was leaked that the cameras were working fine, with their evidence not corrobating the police's version of events.

  55. It's not the speeding as such... by smoker2 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    it's the people who are speeding that matters. Can you guarantee that everyone breaking the speed limit has the ability to handle the vehicle properly ? Driving involves quite a lot of common sense, and sadly, these days I see less and less of it.

    I am a professional driver, and see this every day. The motorways are full of people who are too scared to use the outside lane when neccessary, but who drive in the centre lane almost obsessively. Consequently, when they come up behind a slower moving vehicle in the centre lane, they brake, causing following traffic to either, brake hard themselves, or, swerve into the outside lane, regardless of the traffic situation. This is what causes pile-ups. I drive for miles on virtually empty motorways sometimes and there are still lines of cars in the centre lane, usually only 20 or 30 feet behind each other. There is another problem with this - when I have to overtake a vehicle in the left hand lane, I have to 'break into' this line of cars somehow. This is difficult when they are only 20 feet apart, so I have to pull out much sooner, and stake my claim before they pull alongside.

    I could go on for hours about the bad things that are happening on the roads, but speeding is the least of my worries. My truck has a tachograph, so anytime the police wants to stop me, they can tell instantly whether I've been speeding or not. Why should the car drivers be exempt from this ? Bad driving is the real issue, and nothing much is being done about it. I am fed up with seeing females negotiating junctions with their right hand holding a phone to their left ear and their left hand on the right hand side of the steering wheel. Sometimes the right hand has a piece of food in it as well ! No-one can argue that that behaviour is safe, either for them or others.

    In the end, there are too many cars on the road, driven by very basically qualified people. No one forced them into this situation. The free market sold these people cars and the idea of freedom, so they can't really complain that they need a car to get to work, the shops, whatever. It's down to their buying habits that turned villages into dormitories for workers who have to drive 50 miles to work everyday. Either people find alternative ways to work (internet based etc) or live closer to the place of employment.

    How long can the country as a whole be held to ransom by the car ? The government can't ban cars outright, but they can make it as difficult (read expensive) as possible to own and operate one.

    As a disclaimer, I must add that I ride a GSX1100 suzuki, and so speeding is a virtual certainty, but even then, it is so much harder to find adequate space in which to do so, because of the unpredictability of the other traffic. But as a motorcyclist, I know with painful certainty what a mistake at speed will mean. I have in the past fallen off and hit the road at over 60 mph, and it's not fun believe me. So, hands up all those car drivers who have intimate knowledge of the surface of the road. Apart from motorcyclists / cyclists, there aren't any hands showing. This is where it has gone wrong. Every driver should be aware of the road surface in front of them, the temperature, how wet the road is, what white lines feel like as you go over them. That's where true control comes from, being aware of your surroundings.

    Instead, they have the heating up high, the sound turned up, and sit in the middle lane eating and talking on their phones, and hope that no-one gets in their way until they get to work.

    I for one won't miss their departure from the environment, and sad to say, they deserve everything they get in the mean time.

    1. Re:It's not the speeding as such... by Geeky · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'd just like to add to this that the government seems hell bent on making driving expensive, but this is not out of any concern for the environment or as a backdoor ban on driving; they want us driving and paying through the nose for it.

      Otherwise how do you explain new housing estates being built with no public transport links and no local shops - only a Tesco superstore five or ten miles away? Or how do you explain business parks built with no public transport access?

      My company relocated from a town centre office block which was five minutes walk from a train station and had a bus stop right outside. We had been there for years and many employees had relocated to within walking distance. Our new office is on a business park, about 15 miles away, so walking is out of the question. The nearest train station is about a 40 minute walk away. Bus links are non existant. Previously I could walk to work in about half an hour. It now takes me the same to drive, but public transport would take almost three times as long (20 min walk to station, 20 minutes on train, 40 minutes to walk to office). Rather than walk five minutes to a sandwich shop at lunchtime, the nearest supermarket is a five mile round trip.

      One other kicker; it costs more to sit on a cattle truck of a train than to sit in the comfort of my car.

      The reason for our move? It was much cheaper. Not for the building, but for the taxes. In other words, the company got a massive tax break to relocate to a location that forced the employees to commute by car. Perhaps you could explain to me how the free market was involved in that?

      I guess I still deserve everything I get though, for not being willing to take a massive pay cut to stay in the old town or spend tens of thousands to relocate (and incidentally, there is next to no housing near the new business park anyway).

      --
      Sigs are so 1990s. No way would I be seen dead with one.
    2. Re:It's not the speeding as such... by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 2, Informative

      I am fed up with seeing females negotiating junctions with their right hand holding a phone to their left ear and their left hand on the right hand side of the steering wheel.

      Your whole argument was so well written and insightful right up to this point. Why did you have to blemish a perfectly good comment by singling out women drivers. It only weakens your entire comment, which was otherwise very well put.

      I've seen plenty of drivers talking on their phones. About 50% of them were women. I've also seen people driving dangerously or too fast. About 90% of them were men.

      BUT. I've seen a lot of drivers who drive carefully, curtiously and pragmatically. These constitute about 90% of the drivers on the road. Otherwise you'd never get anywhere with all the collisions.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
  56. Truck drivers are no saints by Viol8 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The amount of times I've seen one truck trying to overtake another
    (usually going uphill! Wtf?!) on a 2 lane road so causing hundreds of
    metres of car traffic building up behind I've lost count of. What
    exactly is the point of overtaking another truck if you're only going
    0.5 mph faster? I mean really , what is the point? If I was of a paranoid
    nature I'd say the truckers did it on purpose just to piss off the car
    drivers.