IT Workers Worst Dressed Employees

Poorly Dressed Anonymous Coward wrote to mention are article run in the Syndney Morning Herald saying that IT workers have been dubbed the worst dressed corporate employees. From the article: "Help-desk staff were named as the worst offenders, followed by those working in technology start-ups, many of whom had continued to wear T-shirts to work as a consequence of the casual web culture of the '90s. 'The internet is now such a massive industry but people haven't caught up in terms of their dress'."

Comments

How strange.

[lgw]

The Herald seems to think that allowing workers to dress comfortably is a *bad* thing. How strange.

Re:How strange.

[stinkyfish]

nah, its not the herald that has the problem, its the moron corporate fashion wanker that seem to think that everyone should wear shiny purple shirts from morrisey and country road shoes and that clothes make you better at your job. seriously, get a real job and stop telling me what i should wear while doing mine.

Re:How strange.

[AuMatar]

Yes, but who really gives a shit? Will dressing up make me code better than if I come in shorts (or sweats)? Will it magicly make me produce fewer bugs? No? Then I'll dress how I want- cheaply and comfortably. You don't like it? Too damn bad. I really don't give a shit.

Re:How strange.

[Denyer]

At a guess, the Herald has accepted (or thinly reworded) a press release from a PR firm paid to pass such things on to media such as TV or newspapers. In this instance, the PR firm will be working on behalf of a manufacturer that produces suits.

It's unlikely the Herald is engaged in any active thought whatsoever.

Re:How strange.

[sedyn]

It isn't about comfort. It is about looking professional!

And, according to the profession I'm in, jeans and t-shirts are appropriate. It is called "culture", we have one, and, like all cultures it should be respected. (I am joking about this)

If you really want to be in a culture that not only encourages but rewards being (as many in western society would call it) well dressed that is fine, have fun at your glorified dog show that you call a career.

If I was required to dress differently for the sake of being professional by stereotypical standards, I'm coming in with a lab coat, reflecting the "scientist" part of my title.

Re:How strange.

[TheGavster]

If you're good enough, many future jobs are excluding themselves from a great employee with their attitudes. The value of a programmer in a suit versus a programmer in a t-shirt is nowhere near the value of a good programmer versus a programmer who dresses like HR dresses.

Re:How strange.

[Lord_Dweomer]

It may not make you code better, but if you EVER have the possibility of being in the line of sight of a client or potential client, your dress code can have a HUGE impact on that person's impressions of your company, which could in turn affect your companies revenue or potential revenue. So while I personally agree with you that it is in general a stupid thing, the fact of the matter is that in today's world the majority of business decision makers like professionalism, and people make stereotypes about certain types of clothing.

Your attitude shows that you probably are not best suited for work in an industry that cares so much about these stereotypes, so I hope for your sake you're in a job where nobody cares.

But let me ask you this...if it meant your job, or a awesome potential job in the future, would you give a shit then?

Re:How strange.

[Auckerman]

Yes, but who really gives a shit? Will dressing up make me code better than if I come in shorts (or sweats)? Will it magicly make me produce fewer bugs? No? Then I'll dress how I want- cheaply and comfortably. You don't like it? Too damn bad. I really don't give a shit.

This misses a very important point. Impressions. I'm up there with you man. I miss having purple hair, but as first boss out of college explained: "I don't care what you look like, your coworkers don't care what you look like, but some of my collabarators will care when they come to visit. I need them more than I need you."

Even if the people you work with and around every day know you're good at your job, in the end that isn't enough. Clients, collabarators, customers, and anyone else from a different work envrioment will take your lack of due care for you appearance and apply it to the entire workplace. That's a real impact. You can wear comfortable cloths that don't look like they came out of a basement for the time your at work, and go back to your t-shirts and hole filled jeans when you get home. They pay you, not the other way around.

Re:How strange.

[AuMatar]

I don't want to progress through life. I'm at more or less where I want to be.

Yeah, it is a game. I don't play games. I have better things to waste my time on. Get over it.

Re:How strange.

[macshit]

You can dress comfortably and fashionably at the same time. A pair of Old Navy khakis, a pair of rockport walking shoes, and a decent button down shirt is not a difficult ensemble to throw together and it looks more stylish than jeans and a t-shirt.

It makes you look like a fratboy. More "businesslike"? Yeah. More "safe"? Yes. More stylish? No.

A typical businessman knows well how to fit in and look like all the other businessmen, and this helps him succeed in business -- but he knows bugger-all about style (indeed, a primary reason for business attire, including the "dockers" type, is that it allows one to look respectable without making any effort or having any taste). Naturally some think they do (hang out near any Manhattan financial firm to see quite a few nausea-inducing examples), but in the vast majority of cases it's mere conceit, consisting mainly of higher-priced fratboy-wear: more expensive, but every bit as safe and banal as the usual sort.

Re:How strange.

[Unordained]

... it is in general a stupid thing, the fact of the matter is that in today's world the majority of business decision makers like professionalism, and people make stereotypes about certain types of clothing ...

The social world has inertia, though watching fashion shows, you'd be hard-pressed to prove it. People take forever to change their opinions on such things, but conforming to the existing de-facto standard only reinforces it, making change take even longer. Every IT worker I know understands that people feel this way about dress -- and that it's stupid. Yet they'll continue to please customers, customers won't be exposed to different dress, and will never come to associate good service with awkward dress, just as they won't associate good service with tattoos (because they're hidden), abnormal hair (again, hidden or prohibited), etc. People will only associate good service with the 'business look', and will jump to conclusions about otherwise-groomed/dressed/modified service providers.

No business is going to take a chance on this for the sake of re-educating the public. And the social norm doesn't change as quickly as generations die off -- your parents may die, but the habits and stereotypes they gave you will be with you, and your children, and even your grandchildren, long after. Every generation overlaps with several others, and we all try to cater to each other. (Which is why I fail to understand political leaders who think there's actually a risk of society suddenly changing itself to be radically more or less permissive. What's actually happening is merely a question of threshholds as people get fed up with pretending.)

Re:How strange.

[Anonymous Coward]

I appreciate what you are saying here, and the fact is that some people can progress through life without playing the games that come along with climbing the corporate ladder; I suppose that makes you amongst them.

But the truth remains that most people can't. Most of the gentlemen who dress like the guy who will spend the rest of his life hidden in a server closet...will spend the rest of his life hidden in a server closet. Most of the success of people who progress from their day one job to a six figure job (if that is what they so-desire) is done because they had strong networking skills and became a known quantity in their field. However, in a field saturated with a lot of same-skilled coders (a lot of people fancy themselves nearly irreplaceable--which I acknowledge that you admit you aren't--because, as far as their position in the company goes, they aren't replaceable by people already in the company), most managers have their pick of the litter as far as hiring goes. How many unemployed coders are there?
I network with people as it is part of what I really enjoy doing, but with it comes the fact that I know a handful of people who are good at what they do. Now, given choice A and choice B, two equally-skilled gentlemen (or ladies) who stand out of the crowd, I am going to choose the one that I know I can leave alone with a customer and who will make a good impression. First impressions often involve looks. (NOW, I differentiate between physical characteristics and dress and/or cleanliness. Quite frankly, pretty or handsome doesn't play consciously into my impression because this is not a chosen factor. I want to cut that flamebait out right now.) A lot of good networkers are that way because they can game the system, and they know that going that extra step can be enough to place them a cut above the others. They understand that, wrong as it may be, people do subconsciously judge others based on the way they dress. That you had to point out that there is a difference between casual dress and poor hygiene only serves as evidence of the point. Of course people know that a gentleman who wears his lounging clothes to work can indeed take a shower and keep himself clean, but so many people out there (who are in a position to pour money into your company) tend to make that association. Even if they don't, you have to admit that there is a generally accepted idea of what "work wear" for a desk job is, and what lounging wear is.

Call me judgmental concerning this point, and I suppose I cannot argue with you because it is indeed passing judgement, but with all else equal, I imagine many people (perhaps in a position to recruit you to their company and give you an incredible raise, or perhaps in a position to come a long-standing customer to your company, or perhaps just your own boss) would make the same choice as I by hiring the guy who dresses for success--who understands the subtle interplays of the people they do business with.
Most people might not consciously realize it, but given two bankers, they are more likely to choose a smiling, well dressed lady banker than one wearing a tshirt and jeans, perhaps because one feels comfortable handing their money to someone who, on the surface, appears as though they would be less likely to need your money and do something silly with it. (Even though we know that both bankers may be paid the same, and neither probably make exceptional amounts of money.) You wouldn't think twice if you saw that same well-dressed banker wearing a tshirt as he/she was out with their children playing, going to the park, etc. However, the fact remains that unless you work at home, work is not home.

You dress not for the position you have, but for the position to which you aspire. I have said this once before in this thread, and I believe it deserves repeating.

To those who say that they would rather get on with life than waste countless hours preening themselves in the mirror, I say they are being dishonest. Sure that

Re:How strange.

[Dahamma]

if you EVER have the possibility of being in the line of sight of a client or potential client, your dress code can have a HUGE impact on that person's impressions of your company

You obviously don't work in the SF Bay Area - most of the customers I know are frankly worried about the talent of the engineering staff if they are dressed too well... in fact, in general I have seen a startling REVERSE correlation between attire and overall technical competence :)

Re:How strange.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you meet customers, you dress nicely. If you don't, who cares. Notify in advance: today you will meet customers, so skip the t-shirt.

Wearing an Armani suit while coding is just not practical.

And anyone who thinks the way you dress is equal to your competence at work is a fucking idiot.

You can always complain about lack of taste. Well hey, money buys nice clothes. Pay people more and don't overtime them and maybe they'll look nicer and have time to iron their shirts too.

Re:How strange.

[avajadi]

> They pay you, not the other way around.
True, but not true. They make money on you, so the dependency goes both ways, though not in equal shares.
I expect people I work for, and with, to be professional. If someone judges me professionally by what I wear, he simply isn't professional enough for me to want to work for him ( or her ).

Re:How strange.

[StopSayingYouSir]

I think the point you're missing here is that some of us don't *want* a job where superficial impressions are regarded as being so important. Yes, I realize that it may limit my job opportunities, but in the end, I only need one job. If it doesn't pay quite as well, that's fine with me. I'll gladly give up the extra pittance if it means I can avoid the extra hassle, expense, and unpaid time involved in clothes shopping, accessorizing, dry cleaning, American-Psycho-style grooming rituals, etc. In the end, I think I come out ahead, psychologically as well as financially. As Thoreau said, "Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes."

The same kind of thinking applies in other situations. For instance, a lot of employers say that they would never even consider hiring someone who neglected to observe the insincere formality of sending a thank-you note after an interview. This strikes me as unbelievably petty, and as such, it reflects badly on the employer. So, as a rule, I never send thank-you notes, reasoning that it will weed out the petty employers for whom I wouldn't want to work anyway.

I've done it both ways, and I vastly prefer the relaxed, easygoing, informal type of work environment to the superficial, uptight, petty type. YMMV.

reasons for "casual" wear

[Geekboy(Wizard)]

I move servers around, and get dirty regularlly. If I rip a teeshirt, I'm not too upset about it, but if I rip a dress shirt, then its gone. Same thing with pants.

Thats not to say I go to work in ripped clothes. I get clean and decent looking stuff, which is also sturdy.

And its kinda silly to give me shit about my clothes when I have my labret (lower lip) pierced. (Yes, I kept it in during the interview process.)

Bait

[BrynM]

From TFA:

Ms Moss believes money should be no object when it comes to dressing well.

So this basically boils down to "These damn geeks don't spend like we got those 'bling' kids to". I was soooo hoping for some pictures of the most daring/oblivious of our kind. Oh well. If my company dress code says I can wear tee shirts, then I can. What the hell is so wrong with that?

Honesty and Dress Sense: Inversely porportional

[Marxist Hacker 42]

In my 10 year career as a techie, I've noticed something about technical people: Those who are the most honest, the least hype driven, have horrid dress sense; where those with the best dress sense are the .bomb millionaires who will leave the country still owing you unpaid paychecks.

This seems to hold true in insurance, real estate, used car salesmen, etc. If somebody is wearing a suit, it's because they're trying to distract you from some other deeper, more important character flaw.

Who cares?

[JustNiz]

If you work in a cube all day and never see a client, whats the problem?
I hate these beaurocratic types that have nothing to do but invent stupid rules, such as expecting everyone to dress to their standard even though there's no practical benefit.
Its what I DO when I'm at work that should matter, NOT what I wear.

Re:Who cares?

[ragnar]

Its what I DO when I'm at work that should matter, NOT what I wear.

Part of what you do at work is to interact with others. IT is increasingly becoming a more social career, requiring cross functional interaction. I wrote the following some time back, which may clarify things a bit:

Many of the very people who argue that they shouldn't be judged on appearances at work are often among the most fastidious when it comes to dressing for a night on the town. So, appearances shouldn't matter, except when they should. Interesting.

While it may seem bureaucratic to enforce standards for clothing at work, there is some empirical evidence that people are more productive when they dress for work. You might be the exception, but by and large, if people dress at work the same way they when lounging about, it shouldn't be a surprise if performance in the workplace suffers. Either way, one's fashion says something oneself. It baffles me why so many people in IT rebel so strongly against common sense wisdom to dress like a professional. Who knows... maybe some of the complaints about being treated unprofessionally would be alleviated if coworkers viewed IT in a better light.

Not too surprising

[demonbug]

In general, IT workers are not the ones interacting directly with clients in-person, but instead are mostly interacting with people within their own company. Because of this, first impressions really don't matter that much. And, I'm afraid, first impressions are the only reason to get dressed up for business (that, or lack of imagination and fixation on inconsequential things, which is admittedly somewhat descriptive of middle and upper management).

Of course, dressing nicely does help some people focus, and I think it can be beneficial for many to have "work" clothes and "non-work" clothes in order to better differentiate between work and home, but (in another sweeping generalization) I'd say tech nerds (obviously the whole of the IT industry) feel less of a need to discriminate between home and work than some other groups.

Re:Not too surprising

[rusty0101]

When you consider that the tech nerds are the ones who are 'on' 24x7, carrying a pager and liable to be called in at any time of the day or night to fix whatever failed, I do think that the attitude of 'at least they are wearing clothing.' is a more realistic attitud to take than 'why isn't he in a white shirt and tie, with good slacks, a blazer, and highly polished shoes?'

The answer to that of course is 'because he was paged at 2:30 by the panicked help desk who needed him to come in to fix the core routers, and he figured that solving that issue was a bit more important than determining whether the blue slacks went with the charcoal blazer, and spending an additional 15 min. while getting ready to refresh the shine on his hiking boots.'

-Rusty

Re:Not too surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

but (in another sweeping generalization) I'd say tech nerds (obviously the whole of the IT industry) feel less of a need to discriminate between home and work than some other groups.

so don't bitch when you're asked to carry a blackberry 24x7, have you laptop available at all times, and take emergency calls in the middle of the night.

Me? When I take off m work clothes, that's it - I'm on my own time, and management knows it.

Re:Not too surprising

[jayloden]

Amen brother!

Seriously though, I work for a startup company, and as such my job ranges from supporting our software products to development, scripting, and system administration. When I started at the company I wore khakis to work every day, jeans on Friday. Then I started wearing jeans for my commute to work (say what you will, I just don't find khakis as comfortable, especially when driving). Eventually I realized nobody really gave a crap if I wore jeans while I sat at my computer, and I stopped wearing khakis all the time,

Sure, when I have to go to a customer site or on a business trip, I break out the button-down shirts and dress pants. Then it actually matters, because customers impressions of our company will be based on me, our company's representative.

When I'm sitting at a computer writing code, answering emails, and making phone calls, it makes no difference what I'm wearing. I'm sure there are people out there that work more focused when they're dressed up, or whatever. Well, I'm not one of them. I work best when I'm comfortable, so I can relax and think. All I can say is if I ever have employees, there will be no "business" attire in my place of business.

More productive when uncomfortable?

[odweaver]

A happy worker is a productive worker
A suit is uncomfortable
A server room is extremely hot, which leads to more discomfort
Discomfort = happy???

What an.....

[demachina]

... assanine article to put on the front page.

Most IT workers aren't dealing with customers face to face most of the time. They are sitting in front of computers, and oddly enough, barring big advances in AI and machine vision computers don't care how you dress.

Quick tip #1. If you are sitting in front of a computer all comfort trumps fashion sense evertime.

Quick tip #2. Wearing a stiff buttoned collar with a tie is a pretty bad idea for comfort or probably even good health. I suspect managers do some of the dumb things they do due to the constriction of blood to their brain.

Quick tip #3. Formal dress is expensive and time consuming. Anything that requires dry cleaning is expensive, and ironing or pressing clothes likewise is time consuming or expensive. Most IT workers want to do more productive things with their time and money than going to the dry cleaners or shopping st Nordstrom's.

Quick tip #4. If you are a geek and meeting geeks from other companies chances are they will be in shirts and tee's too and they are going to conclude you are a noob or a phony if you wear a shirt and tie to the meeting. Only time you are gonna do it is if you are meeting executives from a customer because they wrongly place value, and make judgments, on how good or bad the tie you are wearing is. On the plus side ties are a top subject for casual chit chat among air headed executives.

People who deal in person with customers on a regular basis do have a motivation to dress well. Customers will judge you on it and get first impressions, rightly or wrongle.

People who don't deal with customers shouldn't be wearing expensive uncomfortable clothes on a daily basis.

A twist on this argument is people who do dress well are probably some of the least trustworthy:

    Politicians .... check
    Lawyers .... check
    Salesmen .... check
    Executives .... check
    Stock brokers .... check

You see these are all people who are spending big money to create a facade partially based on their wardrobe. They seek to impress you with their clothes to distract you from their substance.

You're confused about style

[mwigmani]

A pair of Old Navy khakis, a pair of rockport walking shoes, and a decent button down shirt is not a difficult ensemble to throw together and it looks more stylish than jeans and a t-shirt.

But the thing thing is, that's not more stylish than a pair of designer jeans, a t-shirt from Threadless and a some limited edition Nike AF1s; what you're describing is just the generic blue button-down and khaki clone that women find (and hate) in every after-work bar in existence.

IT, AU, T-shirts...

[Shanep]

We poor bastards have to work ridiculous hours, crawl around under and behind peoples desks, fuck around under server room floors, sometimes even do shit around dusty cable runs. It gets bloody uncomfortable. We even cut ourselves on bloody computers for our thankless companies and staff. Hello? We BLEED for those bastards! My mother always complained about how much *I* made her bleed during my birth. Well damn it, we bleed too and want some recognition for it! You know that saying? BLOOD, sweat and tears? It was a skinny nerd with thick black framed glasses, held together with a bandage that coined that phrase. I'm sure one day he just got sick of wrecking business shirts with blood and ink stains from the pens in his BROKEN pocket protector and decided, "To hell with pocket protectors, to hell with my own pens and to hell with uncomfortable business shirts! From now on it's t shirts, no more pocket protectors and fuck it, I'm just going to use whatever pen I find in this damn war zone".

Actually, I don't know what's worse. Getting blood on a $70 business shirt or getting blood on one of my most excellent and beloved OpenBSD t's.

Hmm, I wonder how many OpenBSD t's I could buy if I claim workers comp?

Looking Through Magazines

[jtwJGuevara]

She also recommends looking through magazines to get a feel for what suits you. "This is about thinking about what suits you instead of following trends," she said. Someone please explain to me how looking through everyday magazines for clothing advice is *not* following a trend. I honestly fail to see what the article writer is talking about here. I can think of nothing more trendy than browsing magazines to gain fashion advice of any kind.

Re:Why should IT workers dress any differently?

[WidescreenFreak]

The whole concept of "dress for success" is nothing more than shallow judgementalism. Who do you think a customer would rather work with? Some arrogant ass with a flippant attitude just because he's in a three-piece suit, or someone who is courteous and respectful but just so happens to be wearing jeans and a t-shirt? More than that, what does it matter, particularly if the person is in a position where they are not seen by the public or they are in a position that has little or no visual contact with customers? Are they performing their duties in a professional and courteous manner? Are they proving themselves to be valued employees who work efficiently and effectively? Yes? So, why isn't that what's important?

Could you imagine the actions (not to mention looks) towards any manager who insists that if you're "on-call" and get called at home, you need to get dressed before you dial into the network? Well, if that's a requirement at work where I don't meet the public, why isn't that a requirement at home where I don't meet the public? After all, it's doing the same job but jsut from a different location.

We don't lose IQ points for wearing jeans; we don't gain IQ points for putting on a three-piece suit. Frankly, any manager who stresses "professional" or "business casual" dress on employees who are not in a public relations role must look at the pointy-haired manager in Dilbert as his idol. I'm convinced of that.

Knowledge comes from the mind based on our education and experience; professionalism comes from the soul based on how well we treat others; the patterns and dyed cotton that we wear on the outside of our bodies in order to maintain an ancient, moral code is (or should be) irrelevant.

Fortunately, I work in an environment (in a corporation of over 10,000 employees) where management doesn't really care about dress code. As long as we come in and do what we get paid to do and put in that extra effort when necessary, they're content. Dress isn't even part of the employee review process. This is the biggest, NYSE-listed company of its kind in the U.S. with billions in revenue -- yet there is no dress code and the stock keeps increasing. Well, we must be doing something right -- without worrying about a dress code, either.

Re:Don't dress too nicely

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't tell me you didn't know. That woman was making sure that your NOT A GAY so that she can ask you out.

If that were the case, that was a strange combination of subtlety and bluntness.

Re:further marginalization

[QuantumG]

Why did it break in the first place?

The one question an IT geek can never answer. At 5pm email is working fine. At 8am the next day email is not working. No-one has been in the office from 5pm to 8am, so why did the email break? Oh, the disk was full, or there was an influx of spam or some other reason. So what does the IT geek do? He frees some space on the disk or he configures the spam filter to drop messages with a lower score. Two days later the email server is down again. What's the problem this time? Same thing, harddrive was full. Jesus Christ, can you please buy another fuckin' harddrive already or setup a nightly event to clean the temp files? Why does everything need to be babysitted?

Great thing that happened to me the other day. My DSL stopped working. I called IT. They called the provider. The provider said they'd get right on it. 8 hours went by. I called IT. IT called the provider. The provider escalated the request. 10 hours went by. I called IT. IT called the provider. The provider actually bothered to look up the account details. "Oh yeah, we sent you an email with new username details the other day." IT: "What email address did you send it to?" Provider: "The one you gave us." IT: "Which one is that?" Provider: "We don't know, it's on the form you filled in when you signed up." IT searches for the form, finds the email address, finds the email with the new user information. Fixes the username in my router and tells me it should all be working now. I reboot the router.. nope, still no good. 2 hours go by. I call IT to ask what is happening, they say they got "sidetracked". So they call the provider.. the provider says the password has changed too. So they change the password and tell me to retry. Still doesn't work. So now they call the provider straight away, the provider says the IP address has changed too. So IT changes the IP address in the router. Yah, we now have a carrier light.. no DNS though. Apparently the VPN needs to be reconfigured to use the new IP. IT does that. Still not working. 2 hours go by. Oh, yeah, forgot about that firewall rule.. need to add the new IP to that. Ok, should be working now. It is. Total elapsed time: 4 days. I had to ask "Why'd they change the username/password/ip address?" IT says: "No idea." So I have to ask: "Has this happened before?" IT: "Yeah, it happens all the time." So I gotta wonder, why has no-one put together a checklist of things to do when a DSL outage is reported? Why is it checking the username/password/ip address/VPN/firewall wasn't on that list?

So no, I don't give a shit if you were a tie either, but don't give me that crap about being perfect.

they just don't get it

[mulcher]

What the unwashed masses here miss out on is that if you start dressing nicer, people will treat you better, and you will get promoted and or paid more... Sure, you can be judged objectively
on your work, but most of your work is presentation and communication. Those should be as neat and professional as possible. Do you go to
the doctor expecting him to walk in wearing flip flops, with greasy hair etc... no... why?

It is the expectation of professionalism. Dress for success is a common factor that really holds its value. But you should only dress just a little bit less than as good as your boss, or your bosses boss (if you want your bosses job and you think your boss is an idiot).

Seriously. You will be surprised how quickly you get promoted or well treated and taken more seriously.

If you dress like a student, you get treated like a student. If you are 40 and still dressing like a student, people think you are weird. If you dress better, you get women or men whichever is your fancy.

Many grad students also go through this phenomena. The start off wearing the same old same, and then as they get closer to graduation they start dressing nicer and nicer until one day the boss no longer thinks of them as a student in training, but as a credible scientist.

God help you if your boss dress like a slob. I would take another job seriously.

Re:they just don't get it

[jerald_hams]

"people will treat you better, and you will get promoted and or paid more.." Sure, this applies...if your interactions with other people are brief and superficial, and you approach your job as some sort of race to a mythical "top". Some people actually enjoy their work (so you can keep your promotion), and spend the day talking to people who won't think less of them for a ketchup stain.

Re:Honesty and Dress Sense: Inversely porportional

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

That's strange. As a reasonably smartly-dressed, skilled and experienced techie, my conclusion has been that there is pretty much no correlation whatsoever between how smartly someone dresses and how good they are at their job. Frankly, your implication that I'm an unprofessional rip-off merchant because I'm happier wearing reasonably smart clothes to work is kinda offensive.

Re:Ya Know What They Say?

[Woldry]

"Always dress for the position you strive for, not for the one you are in" -Some Middle Management Suck Up

Swim trunks and sunscreen. Got it. Should I carry around the little coconut glass, or does that not fall under the category of "dress"... ?

Re:further marginalization

[naoursla]

I've found that people value the skills that they themselves do not have. Most technical companies are started by technical people, so the sales and marketing people get paid more than the technical people. I've never heard of a marketing company where the technical people are paid more, but it doesn't surprise me.

I wear what I want..

[Hits_B]

The CEO can kiss my ass and the dumb ass secretary he is banging can kiss my ass too. If the clients don't like it they can take turns kissing my ass after the CEO and his whore are finished. Jesus, you zombies don't realize that essentially a coporate entity is dictating what you wear!! That is exactly the problem with corporatism. Instead of focusing on the business and getting things done more effectively, HR dildos are generating memos about violations of business casual policy. I would sooner scrub fucking toilets than go back into a coporate environment that has a stupid ass dress code. It's an attempt to strip away individualism. How much is yours worth? How much money does it take to pimp yourself out so you can feed your stupid ass kids, keep them in Tommy Hilfiger clothes, and make sure they have a steady stream of PS 2 games to numb their minds? No wonder corporations are such shit holes these days. All about style and no substance. Ok I'll shut up now so you all can tell me what a loser I am.

Re:You sound like you have a bad attitude yourself

[tmortn]

/*RANT

And where does attitude about clothing have a damn thing to do about attitude about work? When did we decide judging a book by its cover was the right way to pick? In what irrefutable experient with repeatable results has it been prooven that those who wear "Stylish" clothes vrs "unstylish" to work have better attitudes?

What does it say about someones attitude if they are willing to buy something they don't like, that costs more than what they do and then wear it the majority of the time because its what people expect? Everyone else is doing it why don't you? Cause I am not a fucking sheeple god damn it. That isn't an attitude problem, its called free will.

Why in the world do we seek and praise conformity ? And I don't care if it was in the form of REQUIRING eveyrone to wear jeans and a T-shirt... its a silly thing to persue in something as irrelevant as manner of dress. Dress codes are about power. The ability to decree what is and is not acceptable and its a large load of very smelly bull shit.

What is wrong with a jeans and a T-shirt vrs not jeans and a polo shirt? What precisely is the difference there? Is Denim some horrid material not fit for public? Is the lack of a collar, two buttons and an overall thinner cotton weave a dire issue of productivity? To even have this argument is stupid. To consider it of any importance an admission of valuing shallow appearance over the substance of what the person does and how they behave. That is an improper way to judge someone and no amount of justification will change that at its heart judgement of appearence alone is shallow and idiotic. If someone has a bad attitude don't ascociate it with what they wear.

I see a jackass in a suit and they are still a jackass. I see a king in rags and they are still a king. We all bitch about judging based on sterotypes and appearances rather than on the substance of a person. And then turn around and teach our kids you have to dress a particular way for anyone to take you seriously. Does anyone else see the utter damnfool hypocrisy in that? The truly heartbreaking thing about it all is if we just quit doing it we would no longer have to put up with it. Easier said than done obviously but damn its still annoying.

RANT*/

Re:Translation

[sl3xd]

I'm personally wondering how many people read TFA, and noted the choice quote:

Ms Moss believes money should be no object when it comes to dressing well.

Ms. Moss was the event's host. She's a "Corporate Stylist" -- corporate clothing is her business.

News Flash! Salesdriod sees a demographic that generally doesn't wear (their) expensive clothes, tries to make those people feel ashamed that they're not spending their money on her wares. More at 11!

They don't make clothing that works out equally well when running cable through walls, poking around above suspension ceilings, crawling under subfloors, and inside the corporate boardroom. What's next? Construction workers the most poorly dressed in the world!

II see plenty of construction workers in offices; but nobody expects them to dress in a way that is anything but utilitarian. Guess what? Plenty of IT workers aren't doing work that is any less hard on clothing.

Re:Dressing fashionably maybe not so easy

[level_headed_midwest]

Heck, I am pretty "normal" sized (5'10, 155 lbs, 38" chest and 31' waist, 34" sleeves, 16" neck, 32" inseam) but all I seem to see anymore are clothes that would fit a hippo rather than a human. It is harder than heck to find pants with waists less than 34" in stock in most stores.

Re:You want well dressed- pay well dressed wages

[Anonymous Coward]

The customers will think differently of you if you can't spell "clothes". Also, if you use "gay" as an insult.

Re:How strange.-self-image

[Anonymous Coward]

>So full of themselves sometimes...

I own my business and I'm a technical guy... The CTO in fact. I got guys that work for me that are so talented it blows my mind. I got one 20 something that blows the doors off anyone I have ever worked with.

But he has a real attitude problem. Not over-the-top out-and-out arrogant, but arrogant none the less. I am trying to decide if it's time to have the "You don't seem like your happy here any more" conversation.

I've been holding off because I really don't want to lose him, but if he pulls his typical spoiled child routine while I'm trying to have a reasoned conversation, I might suggest he start looking for other opportunities and I really don't want that.

But in the end NO ONE is indispensible. I know it would be very diffcult to replace him (it would almost certainly take at least two people) but I just don't like feeling like I'm being held hostage to his corrosive bad attitude.

I would LOVE for him to have to have the headaches and worries and stress that I have in running a business and trying to make us all wealthy in the process. I KNOW it would change his attitude.

Re:Goddamn right

[a.d.trick]

The downside is that you might get promoted to management.

Years ago A really wise guy said something like: "what does it profit a man to gain the whole world but loose his soul".

Re:You want well dressed- pay well dressed wages

[jonbrewer]

I seriously pity anyone who considers IT to be a `career path'. It is not and I certainly don't regard that way. I am a Software Engineer currently in college, and although for the time being I am employed as a cog within an IT infrastructure, in no way or shape do I ever lose focus.

College boy, grow the fuck up. IT is indeed a career path, and while in the corporate world I worked with hundreds of career IT folk. (That's out of 3,000 working in IT across a company I spent four years with) There's very little a large corporation in this world can do now without IT, and IT management are increasingly involved in business decisions. Get on your journal database and read some Venkatraman and stop making idiotic statements about IT on Slashdot.

And stuff your fancy clothes while you're at it.

A Developers Clothing

[M4N14C]

I can agree that a grateful dead tshit and a f-you hat isnt the best workplace attire, but I know that at least I'm more productive when im comfotrable. The only dress code my company has is long pants and no open toe shoes(ie: no shorts and birkenstocks). This is with the understanding that if you are required to do something other than development, such as a meeting with customers or whoever, you dress appropriately for the occasion. What some assclown in the news room thinks isnt important when you're in front of a computer for 12 hours a debugging for a release.

Re:You want well dressed- pay well dressed wages

[werewolf1031]

The cloths aren't the problem. The assholes who think cloths matter are the problem. These buttfucks need to learn how to judge achievement based on what is achieved.

I could not possibly agree more. I've even known people to pass judgement on a person's character and integrity based simply on their attire. I've gotten into heated arguments with these superficial, self-important dumbasses who think that the way a person dresses is a direct indicator of the person's 'moral fiber' or whatnot, believing that if someone's not willing to dress and act the "right way" to fit in, then they're somehow wrong for doing so. I swear, these people actualy take it as a personal offense when they see someone with a mohawk. It's fvcking pathetic.

Personally I'm a tee-shirt-and-jeans kinda guy, though I do like to dress nice now & then. However I also have friends who dress, to put it mildly, "very punk", though I'm not into the punk scene myself. I judge them by what they say and how they treat others, not their style of dress or music or what-the-hell-ever, and they do the same for me in return (I'm into hard rock and metal, not punk, and we really have nothing in common other than the "live-and-let-live" ideals as well as a few common interests like computers and video games).

I guess what I'm getting at, is that those who prejudge others based simply on attire or musical taste have earned my profound disrespect and deep suspicion. Just my two cents.

Re:You want well dressed- pay well dressed wages

[MrPerfekt]

I'm confused... what industry is "Software Engineering" in again?

Re:Corporate Stylist??!?

[skeib]

This calls for a Bill Hicks quote:

"By the way, if anyone here is in advertising or marketing, kill yourself. Thank you, thank you. Just a little thought. I'm just trying to plant seeds. Maybe one day they'll take root, I don't know. You try. You do what you can. Kill yourselves. Seriously though, if you are, do. No really, there's no rationalisation for what you do, and you are Satan's little helpers, OK? Kill yourselves, seriously. You're the ruiner of all things good. Seriously, no, this is not a joke. "There's gonna be a joke coming..." There's no fucking joke coming, you are Satan's spawn, filling the world with bile and garbage, you are fucked and you are fucking us, kill yourselves, it's the only way to save your fucking soul. Kill yourself."

Why I wear a suit.

[felixdzerzhinsky]

I am pretty low in the corporate food chain. The reason I wear a suit is I have to tell people more senior than me how not to be stupid with their data and how to keep it secure. If I wear a suit senior people listen. If I came to work in my "cd /pub more beer" T-shirt I would spend my day arguing about what my grade and what right I have to tell them stuff instead of the content of my advice. Inwardly I am laughing at them for being so shallow. But it makes my day easier. Personally I find it ammusing that in 2005 men are still wearing clothes developed in the 19th century. The woman writing the article is clearly a narrow minded airhead. For an amusing look at a similar story see The Register: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/25/otto_cloth es/

Re:You want well dressed- pay well dressed wages

[Loco3KGT]

The only thing in your post that you established as a point is that you have zero confidence in yourself. Almost all of my friends started out in tech support and while they may not have the most fashion sense, they atleast sport a style and don't mourn their own lives like you do.

Maybe you should take the time to re-evaluate your position in life and your satisfaction with it.

If you're not happy, you're not likely to be confident in yourself. And it's that right there that is more apparent to other people, especially women, than your dress style.

Re:You want well dressed- pay well dressed wages

[mdwh2]

How much money does it take to wear a simple suit, shirt and tie rather than a curry-stained tshirt and sweaty jogging pants?

I don't think anyone is defending the right to wear sweaty, stained clothes - a sweaty, stained suit would be just as bad.

There may be good fashion and bad fashion, and I might disagree with the GP post that it doesn't take a lot of money to dress well, but there is nothing inherently bad about t-shirts, or good about shirt and ties, especially when one is not dealing with customers face to face.

How irrelevant this all should be is highlighted by the fact that women can usually get away with wearing t-shirts, and certainly never have to wear ties, and that is viewed as "smart". But would anyone get away with an article about how badly dressed women are, and how they should make more effort?

All this article shows is that the IT industry is less likely to join in the mainstream sheepish view that we should all dress in one particular way, and a good thing too in my opinion.

Re:You sound like you have a bad attitude yourself

[Lemmy Caution]

We do live in a "class" based system, and to some extent, I have no problems with this. I don't want all events being like all others: I want my wedding to be a special event that requires thougtfulness and aesthetic care. I see your indifference to personal appearance as a resort to pure utility.

Conformity is another matter. Someone who creates a different identity with their appearence or uses it thoughtfully is in a different category than someone who just doesn't give a damn. I'd rather work with someone with the mohawk and noserings who is at least aware that he's being seen than someone who, as David Sedaris put it, shows up looking like he's here to mow the lawn.

I am far more comfortable judging people by how they dress than by most other factors. Clothes are semiotic: they are chosen consciously by people who exist in a society where the codes and signs of dress are relatively available to them. Attire is not a secondary feature over which one has little control.

They are also aesthetic. Beauty matters. It is not necessarily about judging people's character, but it can be about judging their consideration for others. You can't help, in the short term at least, most aspects of your physical appearance. However, just like you can keep your work area relatively clean, you can control your attire. I will judge you by the fact that you don't care what I have to see every day, or at the very least that you are so aesthetically illiterate that you are unaware of it.