Slashdot Mirror


Curbing Energy Use In Appliances That Are Off

KarmaOverDogma writes "The New York Times has an interesting piece on the slow but steady movement to reduce the power drain for appliances that are never truly turned off when they are powered down. In the typical house that's enough to light a 100-watt light bulb 24/7, according to Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratories, a research arm of the Energy Department. In the United States alone, over $1 billion per year is spent powering devices such as TV's VCR's, Computers and Chargers while they are 'off.' Called 'vampires' and 'wall-warts' by Energy Experts, there has been growing support of their recommendations to adopt industry-wide standards, which would require manufacturers to build appliances with significantly lower consumption when not in use."

54 of 409 comments (clear)

  1. How low can they go? by jacksonai · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Seriously, how low can they make the power consumption without raising the price of the item significantly? It seems to me that with Energy Star, eco friendly should already be in the stuff we buy.

    --
    Like Sweepstakes? Try out my service @ http://www.yourpowersweeps.com -- Free 21 day trial, no cc needed.
    1. Re:How low can they go? by l2718 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Easy solution: why does every *****ing appliance need to tell me what time it is?

    2. Re:How low can they go? by pla · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Seriously, how low can they make the power consumption without raising the price of the item significantly?

      How about "very nearly zero"? Ideally, an "off" device would draw zero watts, but I realize we expect our toys to respond at a moments notice, and that takes some electricity.

      My TV, when off, draws 7 watts. That presumeably lets it remember its settings and watch for activity from the remote control. Those two tasks, however, should draw in the low milliwatts, certainly not more than a full watt.

      Printers also tend to have a very high idle current draw (and by idle I mean cold and in standby not just "not printing". 20-25W seems common for that - More than the total I use for actively lighting my house under normal conditions (assuming three CF lighbulbs at once, fron 5 to 9 watts each).


      Of course, I think we'd do a lot better to worry about the active draw of our appliances. For example, the humble 19" box-fan draws a whopping 150W on high. With only a tiny increase in cost, that can drop by a factor of three, yet no one cares because no one realizes what a massive power sucker they have sitting happily humming in the window.

    3. Re:How low can they go? by Matthew+Bafford · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I thought it was interesting that in England TVs have a true off setting as well. Basically a real switch on the front of the TV that turns it totally off. I got caught quite a few times by turning the TV off by the switch on the front - and then the remotes wouldn't turn it back on.

      Totally unlike how American TVs tend to work.

    4. Re:How low can they go? by jonwil · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The same is true of australian TVs.

      All the TVs in this house have off buttons on the front that power it off so that all it does is remember settings and a standby mode on the controler.

      The Foxtel (Sattelite TV) box is always on and sucking juice.
      There is a "off" mode but all that really does is shuts down the video output, its still awake and listening to the sattelite (so it can download firmware updates, recieve encryption keys for the channels you are subscribed to and so on as well as notify the central server how much to bill you for PPV etc)

    5. Re:How low can they go? by woolio · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It SHOULD be in everything but its not...

      I'm noticing that my brand-new laser printer manages to still make the lights flicker wildly even hours after its LCD screen reads "sleeping...". WTF!?!

      Even on a less dramatic scale. I bet things like VCRs draw tons of power while off just due to power supply circuits of a brain-dead design.

      For example, I do know that some types of power supplies (switching) are not stable unless a *minimum* amount of current is drawn. I'd guess that some devices either have a "dummy load" to ensure this or use even less efficient techniques of supplying power (such as a resistor divder instead of a transformer). Both result in unnecessary consumption of energy albeit reduced manufacturing cost...

      Consider this: Your cell phone is highly energy-efficient. But what motivation is there to produce energy-efficient chargers? NONE, since they rely on wall-power or car-power... Primary motivation for these is cost -> low part count.

      Also, I wonder if enough consumer equipment doesn't have power factor correction circuitry to cause a significant amount of waste... Anything with a switching power supply (practically everything electronic these days) would generally have a non-ideal power factor unless it contained *additional* capacitors to correct. I think highly non-ideal power factor devices cause (additional) high amounts of current to flow at certain times (but average to zero). Although they would average out to zero, loss due to resistance in lines causes some energy wasted...

    6. Re:How low can they go? by ZorinLynx · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't believe modern TVs do this.

      It used to be common years ago, though. My family had a Panasonic TV that would INSTANTLY display a picture when powered on. No warmup time! If you looked through the vent slots when it was off, you could see the CRT cathode heaters glowing very softly. They glowed dimmer than they did when the TV was on, but they stayed warm enough for an instant image.

      The TV had a "vacation" switch on the back that acted as an on/off switch for this feature. When in "vacation" mode, the TV would take about 30 seconds to warm up! I guess older tubes had more thermally massive heaters, and had extreme warmup times, which is why the TVs had this "warm standby" state. New cathodes warm up quickly enough that it's no longer a problem.

      -Z

  2. Maybe... by Pao|o · · Score: 2, Funny

    People should unplug their appliances? Switch the main circuit breakers for a total stop of consumption...

    Heck maybe they should buy Macs with better performance per watt. ;)

  3. Standby mode to blame? by cyclocommuter · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I have been noticing that more of the latest gadgets like HDTVs, subwoofers, amplifiers, DVD players, etc., now just go into standby mode instead of turning off. I could actually hear the transformer of my subwoofer humming even when it is supposed to be off... The only way to turn it completely off is to unplug the power cord.

  4. Meter by 42Penguins · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Do I smell the need for a review of an in-between appliance and wall power meter? What are some good ones that you've seen/used?

    1. Re:Meter by max_entropy99 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Thinkgeek.com just happens to have such a device: http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/electronic/7657/

  5. How about circuit breakers in each room? by bergeron76 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How about a switch in each room that turns off all the crap inside of it?

    I've audited my home for vampires, and I've since been desoldering leds, and using X10 modules to turn off VCR clocks (I have both a watch and a cellphone - but thanks for the valueadd of a clock on my microwave, coffee maker, vcr, phone, scale, etc.)

    --
    Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
    1. Re:How about circuit breakers in each room? by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I've since been desoldering leds, and using X10 modules to turn off VCR clocks (I have both a watch and a cellphone - but thanks for the valueadd of a clock on my microwave, coffee maker, vcr, phone, scale, etc.)

      The problem isn't the clock in the device. The clock logic and LED display use up a tiny fraction of one watt. The problem is the power supply.

      Take the microwave for example: people expect to be able to walk up and start punching in a cooking time without first having to push a huge mechanical power switch. (The manufacturer doesn't want to design in a costly extra power switch either.)

      This means that the electronics need to be powered on at all times. That wouldn't be a problem, but most appliances use a simple transformer to drive their power supplies. Inexpensive transformers are leaky even when they are supplying no current to the secondary, so the microwave's transformer is probably wasting a couple of watts at all times. The solution to the problem is a better power supply, not omitting the clock or desoldering LEDs.

      Some recent wall warts and power bricks that I've got weigh almost nothing and don't seem to get hot. I presume that they've put in switching power circuits and eliminated the 60Hz transformer altogether. Putting that kind of power supply in every appliance would go a long way towards solving this problem.

  6. $4 a person? by readin · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In the United States alone, over $1 billion per year is spent...

    The US has about 300 million people. So that's less than $4 per person per year, or 16 bucks for a family of 4. Doesn't seem worth worrying about to me. A family of 4 spends more than that on a single tank of gas for their car.

    --
    I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    1. Re:$4 a person? by FFFish · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No shit. Over the past couple years I've replaced a furnace that has dropped my natural gas usage by over 40%, moved to CFLs as lightbulbs burn out, installed a smart thermostat, wrapped my hot water tank, and am making plans to renovate the kitchen, replacing an inefficient refridgerator, stove (goin' gas!), and dishwasher.

      I'm hardly going to feel bad because my television, stereo, and a few wall-wart power adapters are the equivalent of leaving a lightbulb on. Good god, let's worry about something that really matters, like why this model year's cars use almost as much gas as they got back in 1965. We've gained only a one mile per gallon in efficiency every five years?! WTF?

      --

      --
      Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
    2. Re:$4 a person? by rtaylor · · Score: 4, Informative

      Ahem.. That is $4 per person per year for the TV and VCR only (two devices).

      Microwave, washer, dryer, printer, phone, monitors, lamps, battery chargers (cell phone, laptop, etc.), cradles, etc. also take energy when in standby mode -- or what most people call off.

      They list 1000kw per year per household, so at 7 cents per kw that works out to closer to $70 per year. If it adds between $0.50 and $1 to the manufacturing cost to reduce that by 50% it would probably be a net-win for most devices plugged in for most than 6 months.

      --
      Rod Taylor
  7. Surge Protectors by Rinnt · · Score: 2, Informative

    What about using surge protectors to make sure your stuff is "off"? That's what I use for my whole network - okay, so it's only two computers. But still, everything runs to a master switch. When stuff is done for the day I hit the kill switch... I would say this cuts the power to the devices since my LAN link lights all go dead.

  8. Wind power by saskboy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'd like someone to invent small wind generation units, that people can mount on their roof, and it would provide power to "vampire devices" so that your TV, VCR, and other remote controlled devices can have power, but not use anything from the power grid until they are turned on.

    Solar power would work too, but I suspect wind would be more powerful with a small generator, but anyone is free to correct me if they know better.

    --
    Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
  9. Kill A Watt by DigitalRaptor · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've long since wanted to get a Kill A Watt Meter to check the power consumption of the equipment I have. At $35 it's a bargain.

    With electricity prices skyrocketing I'm noticing which lights are on the most and replacing them with full spectrum compact flourescents that have a really nice, white light but use about 1/5 the juice.

    --
    Lose Weight and Feel Great with Isagenix
    1. Re:Kill A Watt by pla · · Score: 2, Informative

      I wish I could find some that lit to near full brightness in a few seconds instead of the 15-30 they take to warm up.

      In this case, "you get what you pay for".

      I have all CFs bulbs in my house, and have noticed that the $5/3-packs from WallyWorld or Home Depot tend to take a second to start and then a long time to warm up, while the $7-each ones come on at full brightness just as fast as an incandescent.


      Personally, I'll deal with the 30-second delay. ;-)

  10. thats it? by Joffy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    One 100 watt light bulbs worth? Making everyone use more efficient lights would save a lot more than that. Filament based lights have got to go! My gadget's LEDs are more than enough to light my room!!

  11. power strips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    All of the power strips I see in Japan have switches next to each socket to turn off the socket for each individual appliance. Looks like a good solution to me.

    1. Re:power strips by entirety · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Mod Parent down... I lived in Japan for many years... Switches next to sockets are not common throughout Japan. Those who think the Japanese are ahead of the US at everything have never been outside of Tokyo. The people are just as hosed, if not more, as the US folks are. I can tell you that they use a lot of fluorescent lights though. But with all the neon signs perhaps it is a break even.

      Don't hate me... Love me for breaking your paradigms... Now, give me one of dem nickels!

  12. Re:How about you ask the industry to make more pow by bryan8m · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What's the point of making more energy when a good chunk of it will go to waste? Green energy is good, but it's not to be wasted.

  13. Re:No Rest for the Wicked... by Spoke · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I used to have a digital cable box which sucked down 30-45w all the time (or something, don't have it anymore, ditched it for normal cable). On/off, didn't make a difference. That thing was always hot.

    I've got plenty of wall-worts which suck power, even when nothing is plugged into them, but it's a PITA to unplug them. If the power strips they were plugged into didn't have other electronics plugged in, it'd be easy enough to hit that switch, but who wants a power strip or switch on every single wall-wart they have?

    Replacing the power supplies in my PCs with a high efficiency units from Seasonic made a noticable difference. Power draw was reduced 20-30% all the time which is nice.

    The charger for my Samsung A670 cell phone is the best, it doesn't use any power when plugged in without the phone. It's so light and small, it doesn't have your typical AC/DC converter in there, not sure how they convert wall power to DC to charge it.

  14. Wall Wart Pet Peeve by Ritz_Just_Ritz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My pet peeve is the almost unlimited combination of wall wart connectors, polarity, output voltage, output current, etc. Wouldn't it be so much easier if there was some sort of standard wall wart power supply with a standard connector? If you're a gadget geek, you wind up with a rather unwieldy pile of these things in your home and many of them invariably wind up staying plugged in all the time. You can tell they're using energy since they're always a bit warm to the touch, even when the actual device that's supposed to use it isn't even plugged in. Once they standardize the form factor, perhaps they could actually enhance them to the point where quiescent energy usage is much lower.

    1. Re:Wall Wart Pet Peeve by digitaldc · · Score: 2, Funny

      Mine are that they hire illegal aliens, lock them in the stores at night, and don't provide good benefits...oh wait, you said Wall Warts.

      Never mind, my mistake.

      --
      He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
  15. Re:here ye! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    > At least with a computer, you can flip the power supply and have it *off* off...right?

    Not with the new ATX power supplies that Al Gore pushed so hard. He claimed that since the average computer user is so stupid that they're not smart enough to turn their own computers and monitors on and off. So now we have monitors that are on all of the time looking for a video signal, and ATX power supplies that supply 5V all of the time. I miss the good old days when monitors and computers had real power switches and you could turn them off. Thanks to Al Gore's campaign, we're no longer allowed that.

    Aside: I was at UGA when Al Gore spoke there when he was pushing his book in 1990. I still can't believe he told us, a group of college students, that we weren't smart enough to control a power switch. We were smart enough to boo and call him names. What a damn moron.

  16. I'm doing my part by Rufus88 · · Score: 5, Funny

    I unplug all my clocks when I'm not using them.

  17. Solar roof shingles offset vampires by digitaldc · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "Energy efficiency experts say the answer lies instead in industry-wide standards, which would require manufacturers to build appliances with low consumption when in standby."

    Wouldn't it be nice if the 'Energy experts' spent more time promoting the most obvious source of free power in (and out of) the world; solar power?

    Installing just a few solar roof shingles would easily off-set the cost of vampire appliances.
    see: http://www.oksolar.com/roof/

    Not only do they generate power for your whole household, they end up paying for themselves when you produce a greater current than you are taking in. The energy is sent back to the power line and the energy company pays you.

    --
    He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
  18. Things used to be able to be turned off. by Phat_Tony · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I remember during the early 90's, when the appliances that wouldn't turn off started to take over. The first appliances I remember that wouldn't turn off were VCRs from the mid 80's- they offered the feature of being impossible to turn off without unplugging them, and always helpfully flashing "12:00" on the display when plugged in. As my parent slowly replaced old appliances with new ones, I remember tech support phone calls from my parents:

    "How do I turn it off"
    "Press the 'power' button"
    "I did that, but there's still a light on."
    "That's the 'standby' light."
    "The what?"
    "That's the light that comes on to tell you that the appliance is off."
    "!!???"
    "I don't know why."
    "You mean one light or another is going to be on the entire time we own this appliance, unless we unplug it?"
    "Yep. Get used to it. Everything's that way now."

    It used to be that the power button was just a switch that did the same thing as unplugging it, to save you the inconvenience. They've now thoughtfully removed that feature; if you really want it OFF, you have to go back to unplugging it again.

    All of this coincided with a preponderance of clocks. I can see two engineers somewhere having a conversation:
    "Have you noticed how cheap digital clocks have gotten?"
    "Yeah! Let's put them in everything!"

    I remember when my neighbor's old analogue kitchen wall clock died, so he said he'd better shop for a new one. I asked him if he really needed another, because there were already digital clocks on his coffee machine, oven, range top, microwave, radio, and even toaster oven. Pretty much everything that used electricity in the kitchen except the refrigerator and mixer had their own LED clock.

    They still replaced the wall clock. It's the only one they looked at. It came as news to them that they already had six clocks in their kitchen. They'd never noticed them.

    Feature-creep didn't originate with software.

    --
    Can anyone tell me how to set my sig on Slashdot?
  19. Measuring wall-wart power usage. by Latent+Heat · · Score: 5, Informative
    Appliances of any kind are typically rated in volt-amps, which tells you the current they draw knowing the voltage, but under worst-case conditions without telling you the power factor to know the P (watts) instead of the |S| (volt-amps). Applicance rating plates are meant to tell you how much current draw and hence how big a circuit breaker or fuse you need -- they are not energy ratings.

    My own house runs about 45 watts. The furnace alone has a microprocessor in it that takes a good 16 watts. Each GFI (ground fault interrupter circuit breaker that prevents you from getting shocked in wet places like kitchen, bathroom, outdoors) takes up a watt, but you can eliminate that draw by leaving them "popped." I have three motion detector lights -- they save energy, but they take about 2-3 watts each when the lights are off. The garage door opener has a radio receiver that draws about 4. We have a remote control TV that takes 6 watts. Phone answering machines are good for about 4-5 watts. Oh, and a PCI motherboard (it is always "on" when the computer is plugged in) is good for about 4 watts -- I have mine on a "power center", but I can't get my wife to put her computer on a "power center."

    I know this info by using either a power meter that the local utility loans out through the public library or by counting turns on the outside electric meter (If you meter says 7.2 on it, it means it is 7.2 watt-hours for every turn. If it takes 10 minutes to make one full turn with everything turned of, it makes 3600/(10X60) turns or 6 turns per hour, or the house is using 6X7.2 or 43.2 watts -- instead of standing outside counting a full turn of the meter, you can turn on a light inside of known wattage to bias the reading higher so the meter turns faster. Also, you have to time a complete turn because there is runnout in the power meter rotor -- it goes faster and slower over different parts of a turn, but it is calibrated to read to better than 1 percent for a complete turn.).

  20. Re:here ye! by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I still can't believe he told us, a group of college students, that we weren't smart enough to control a power switch.

    Hey, guess what: People aren't smart enough to turn off their equipment.

    At one place I worked at a few years back, almost all of the CRTs in the offices would sit drawing > 100W each showing screen savers every night and weekend. I usually would at least swing by the lab on my way out each night and turn off about 1000W worth of monitors left on by others.

    Al Gore was exactly right. The 2W drawn by a sleeping monitor would come out as a win if even only 10% of the people left their monitors on. And from what I've seen, far more than 10% don't bother to shut off their monitors.

  21. Translated in human language by SysKoll · · Score: 4, Funny
    Quoteth the NYTese: In the typical house that's enough to light a 100-watt light bulb 24/7

    Translated in human language: In the typical house that's 100 W.

    By definition, watts are independant of time. Joules are a quantity of energy, and 1 watt = 1 Joule per second.

    It's sad to see that the tech section of one of the US's largest newspaper feels the need to dumb down its writing, or maybe just hires incompetent writers. Drool-proof paper cannot be far.

    On the plus side, no units in the article were compared to a football field or a the Library of Congress, for once. That's progress, I suppose.

    --

    --
    Mad science! Robots! Underwear! Cute girls! Full comic online! http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/

  22. Re:here ye! by NCraig · · Score: 2, Informative
    I've also heard that its more efficient to leave your computer on all the time because the amount it costs in wear and tear on your computer is more than the power saved by doing it. Anyone hear of this rumor or know anything about it?
    The argument is that thermal stress from turning the cooled-down PC on wears components out. I've seen many arguments for and against leaving a computer on all the time. This page details a few of them.

    Interestingly enough, according to the web page it is more important to turn off the monitor than the PC.
  23. Depends on where you live... by bluGill · · Score: 4, Informative

    If you live in southern California this is a good idea, paybacks in as little as 4 years. (Including government subsidies) If you live in MN like I do, you are looking at a 30 year payback if all goes well - which is longer than many roofs last. If you shovel the roof you might do better, but that is both dangerous (Don't fall off the roof), and harmful to the panels (which tend to be easily damaged when walked on).

    If you live in areas with a lot of sun you are stupid not to investigate this. Many people live in climates where they do not pay off.

  24. welcome to 2001 by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 3, Interesting

    http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,87100,0 0.asp

    George Bush campaigned for this stuff back in the early days. I may not like the guy much, but he was right about this. Companies consistently make their products more power inefficient just to make them cheaper, because very very few people pay attention to efficiency of appliances. They save a few pennies on day 1 and give it back and then some every year.

    Energy Star has been incredibly effective. The cheapest refrigerator you buy is within 80% as efficient as the most efficient models. This is definitely not true with many other classes of devices (like lights!).

    Bush also inadvertently coined a great spoonerism about power-stealing vampires when talking about this initiative.

    --
    http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
  25. Solar vs energy conservation by Latent+Heat · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Solar and energy conservation are not exclusive options. However, solar is about 5 dollars per peak watt, and that isn't even talking about finding a roofing contracter you can trust to put the panel up on the roof without introducing roof leaks. If you average 6 hours peak sun a day, you are talking 30 dollars per average watt for solar panels.

    Suppose a transformer wall wart uses 4 watts and you can replace it with a solid-state ferrite switcher that uses .5 watts. It would take nearly 100 dollars of solar panel to do the same thing.

    Oh, and about back feeding the line, you could probably get away with a small amount of back feed and just don't tell anyone about it. If you put up a serious solar panel setup and plan to back feed enough that the power company will notice, they get real, real huffy about that. In fact, they are supposed to by law buy back your power, but they really hate that. I was at an alternate energy fair where the local utility was touting their wind mills (you pay extra for the bragging rights of getting "green power"), and when I asked the utility dude about home solar panels and back feeds, he was telling me about all kinds of restrictions (two meter arrangements where you pay more for incoming and get back less on outgoing), and when I mentioned the laws regulating buyback, the fellow got in my face an I thought I would get punched. So much for committment to green power.

  26. light pollution by bcrowell · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There's also a problem with light pollution in cities. Too many businesses leave bright lights on all night, which lights up the sky and makes it impossible to see the stars. Amateur astronomers have to drive farther and farther to get to dark skies. I'd imagine this is a much bigger waste of energy than people's VCRs always keeping an LED on. A few towns have passed light pollution ordinances.

  27. My Canon is good by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 2, Informative

    Laser printers take a lot of power when standing by, like copy machines. They keep the innards partially warmed up for fast response.

    But my Canon inkjet (Pixma 8500) is fantastic. On the Kill-A-Watt you can see that within a minute of printing, it drops to less than 1W consumption. Measuring it over time (Kill-A-Watt doesn't measure less than 1W instantaneous) says it takes about 150mW in this standby mode. That's great. I suppose off takes less, I guess. I have mine set to turn off after 20 minutes. Honestly though, I bet it just turns off the LED (30mW?) and remains in the same state otherwise, because it wakes from off very fast (and without touching it, it does so over USB).

    Of course, the inks cost a lot compared to toner... (Cheaper than most though)

    --
    http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
  28. Re:Meter Kill A Watt P3 results by saskboy · · Score: 3, Informative

    I got a P3 for my Dad, and have since borrowed it to meter nearly everything in my house just for fun. [Yeah I said fun, this is Slashdot and if I consider plugging things in to test for Wattage use as fun, that's fine.] I got the meter from eBay, it was about $30.

    Here are some of my results:
    Air Conditioner wall unit: 2 hours: 17 minutes 3.12 kWh and 1300W when running.

    Fridge from the 1970s, about 126W when running.

    Microwave from 1980, 888W when running

    Clock Radio from 1986, with the radio on and volume low, 0W measured.

    Computer 1800+ AMD, 3 IDE HD, and Radeon AIW 8500DV /Speakers/Monitor/Modems/Sony VCR, 13" TV, UPS, all typically used, but the computer running 24/7:
    185W approximately
    214 hours 38.62kWh
    1083 hours 188kWh

    --
    Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
  29. Re:It's about time. by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Interesting
    and the "power" LED.

    On some very low powered devices you can actually get a big increase in battery life by disconnecting the power LED :)

  30. current x voltage isn't usually watts by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 2, Informative

    current x potential (voltage) / power factor = power (Watts)

    You cannot measure power factor with a multimeter. A Kill-A-Watt measures both VA (what you measured) and power (Watts) and since it knows both, power factor too.

    Additionally, with your system if a device has a large surge current it might blow your meter. Or you might hurt yourself. Better to use an inductive current clamp (around only one wire, you cannot pass the entire power cord of line, load and ground through it), since it cannot overload in any way that causes danger or costs money to repair.

    But really, get a Kill-A-Watt. It can measure over time the power consumption of a device. For example, it'll tell me how much power my computer takes in a week of use. It does this by measuring and integrating the power usage over time. For example, I've had my PC plugged into the Kill-A-Watt for 650 hours and it has used 15.25 KWh in that time. A month has about 740 hours in it, so I use about 17.4KWh/month for my PC. It is on for some of that time, off for some and in standby for most of it.

    There's no other way to measure how much power your fridge uses in a week, unless you want to measure standby power (including power factor), compressor on power (including power factor), and then manually record each time your fridge turns on and for how long.

    --
    http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
  31. Re:here ye! by alc6379 · · Score: 2
    So nowadays, I am a fan of pulling the powercable out of the back of the machine to shut things off. It saves time and power, and sometimes its a way to prevent a virus from fully propogating on your system(yah I stopped a virus manually like this once).

    I know with the advent of journalling filesystems and NTFS, this is becoming less of an issue, but you're just asking for trouble. Nowadays, if you've got a virus on your system, it's only going to take milliseconds for a virus to infect and drop it's payload. All you're doing is turning off an infected system, and still risking data/settings loss. Please tell me, and if you are I pray for your organization, that you don't do this to production systems. I could just see you saying, "well, I need to swap out a card in this server, so let me yank the cord real quick, while database reads and writes could still be taking place!" *shudder*

    I wouldn't let you near my systems if you're going to yank the power cable on them. Even back in 95 when you'd see "It is now safe to turn off your computer", you still needed to tell the OS to shut down so it could finish what it was doing, and clean up after itself by writing everything to disk. Then, it was ok to hard-power down your system, only after that was done.

    --
    I don't moderate anymore. Karma penalty for 90% fair mods? Can I mod that unfair?
  32. Turning off the powerstrip??? by bigbigbison · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I typically plug most of my stuff into powerstrips and with the exception of the cable box which takes forever to restart, I turn the powerstrips off every night before I go to bed. Most of these components I've had for at least 5 years and none of them have any problems working as soon as I turn the powerstrip back on. Even my reciever remembers all of its settings and I've left the powerstrip turned off on it for weeks while on vacation.

    Of course this raises the question, "if they work fine after having no power sent to them, then why are they made to draw power even when they are off???" Can anyone answer that?

    I got in the habit when I lived in the dorms in college and could hear the stuff humming while I was trying to sleep and just kept doing it ever since. I suppose it is like these electronic thermostats that seem so popular. My family always just turned it down before the last person went to sleep at night...

    Realistically, there are tons of other places that waste much more electricity than appliances. Basically all the buildings at all the universities I've either studies or worked at leave lots of lights on 24/7. During holiday breaks, I've even tried to turn off the lights in the hallway of our dept. office only to come back the next day to find that someone has turned them back on and left them on. Of course that isn't even mentioning the fact that the heat in our building can't be adjusted and so during the winter it is so hot we open the windows in the hall and turn the AC on in our offices (and I do just turn the "Fan" part of the AC unit on since it is winter and cold out, but many of others do actually put the AC on high)...
    or the fact that we are told not to turn off our office computers, or the people who live four blocks away but still seem to need to drive to the office...

    While I haven't done any calculations on it, I would imagine that fixing the heating in our department building would save more energy than all of the department members unplugging their electonics while not in use...

    --
    http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
  33. One small correction and one Major Addition by IvyKing · · Score: 2, Insightful
    current x potential x power_factor = power
    Power factor varies from 0 (pure reactance) to 1 (pure resistance) and is equal to the cosine of the difference between the current phase and voltage phase. Other than that minor goof, a very nice write-up.

    The most compelling reason for using the "Kill-A-Watt" over a multimeter is safety. We had someone at work who wanted to brew up a power line wattmeter, and I persuaded him that it would be cheaper and much safer to buy a ready made wattmeter. The project did get mentioned on Slashdot a few months back - adapting a Mac Mini to run on batteries.

  34. 60% of homes heated by natural gas (methane)? by cdn-programmer · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I think I read somewhere that 60% of homes are heated by methane (CH4) (Natural Gas). Last I checked today the price of Nat Gas is $11.41 and I expect this is at the Henry Hub and the units are MM-btu's (ie 1 million btu). The conversion factor between MM-btu and GJ is 1.054615. For some reason the "units" program shows this conversion factor as 1.0550559. This is close enough for the girls I go with.

    Since there are 3600 seconds in an hour an energy consumption of 1 kWh is equivalent to an energy consumption of 3600 kilojoules. Eg - for the units impaired we do this:

    kWh => k(W)(h) => k(j/s)(h) => k(j/s)(3600s) => k(j)(3600)(s/s) => 3600 kj = 3.6*10^6j = 3.6e6j (the later being scientific notation)

    We know the price of NatGas is 11.41 for 1 MM-btu (10^6 btu = 1e6 btu)

    multiply by 1.054615 and we get about $12 bux = 1Gj = 10^9j = 1e9j

    divide by 1000 to get: $0.012 = 10^6j = 1e6j

    but: kWh = 3.6e6j = 3.6(1e6j) = 3.6 * 0.012 = 4.3 cents.

    This is a wholesale price for natgas. Wholesale prices for electricty are about 5 cents per kWh. Delivered prices are about 2x in both cases as well. Check your energy bills.

    What this shows is that at present prices, the cost of energy from a source such as delivered natural gas is about the same as the cost of energy from electricty. When you consider that electricty can be used to drive a heat pump (whole house negative fridge) at an overall thermal effciency of upwards of 300% if earth or lake coupled then it is actually cheaper and more energy efficient to heat our homes with electricty rather than natural gas. Ditto with oil.

    Now a standard incandecent heater (light bulb) is upwards of 90% efficient. IE - when you run your incandecent heater you leak about 10% or so of the energy in the visible spectrum while the vast majority of the energy is retained as usable heat. Much of the visible light falls on walls and floors and furniture and people and pets and most of this energy is also salvaged eventually as heat. Only that small portion which leaks out of windows is actually lost.

    Hense we can say that the heating effciency of an incandecent lightbulb is pretty close overall to 100% so it really is pretty close to being on par with natural gas and other energy sources such as oil.

    What this means is that the energy loss from appliances offsets the energy consumption from the furnace and the prices are so close it is more or less a wash. If we check the futures prices on Natural Gas come March we may find the old 100 watt light bulbs are cheaper.

    -------------

    What these calculations demonstrate is that in the winter heating season the only path to energy conservation is through attention to the building envelope. Energy efficient appliances accomplish next to nothing (in colloqial French Canadian this is loosely translated to SFA).

    However in the cooling season in summer the story is a lot different. These applicances during summer add to the cooling load of the building and this load is very considerable. Still in summer if we pay attention again to the building envelope then we can eliminate a huge percentage of the energy that must be pushed out of the building against the thermal gradient by the HVAC system. Note that in this case the Delta-T for an air coupled system might be sitting at say 40F while the Delta-T for an earth or water coupled system might only be 10F.

    So energy efficient appliances and lighting starts to make a great deal of sense once we get the building envelope insulation up where it should be which in Northern States and Canada is probably north of R50 in the walls and R70 in the ceilings. Then we can use the electricty saved to run a small earth or water coupled HVAC/Heat pump system and in so doing more or less eliminate the dependancy on Natural Gas and heating oil.

    However with the typical homes we live in - especially in the winter time - its a wash. Pay for your energy as electricity or pay for it as Nat Gas.

  35. Re:Yeah and do the math. by letxa2000 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I think people should get their priorities in order. Rather than get worked up over low priority/impact stuff. Makes me wonder if politicians or someone is trying to distract people from more important stuff.

    I can't speak for everyone--and I believe our power consumption is probably below typical American averages--but we use about 11kWh per day. If our wall warts, etc. are really consuming 2.4kWH per day, that's about 22%! If a country needs 22% less energy, that's a big savings in terms of money, infrastructure, and polution.

    Now like I said, I realize that we're probably way below the American average. In fact, I just did a quick Google lookup and this link says the typical American uses 10,000kWh per year--so that'd work out to 27.4kWh/day. So, fine, we use less than half the average. But even so, if the wall warts amount to 2.4kWh/day, that's still close to 10% of the typical American consumers' consumption. That's not insignificant.

  36. Re:here ye! by plover · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Obviously you have absolutely no idea how many people don't turn off their gear when they leave. Do you have a clue just how much fuel has been saved by having equipment idle itself down? ATX was a huge win for saving energy.

    As the grandparent poster was discussing, decent power supplies DO have a hardware switch in the back that disconnects the mains power. Everyone knows the "soft off" button leaves the mobo energized. I always require a hardware switch when shopping for power supplies. I prefer to leave the computers plugged in while I work on them because I like having the chassis grounded.

    [Re: Al Gore -- grow up. He was most likely speaking in generics; people do it all the time. Most people, especially groups of college students, are able to understand the difference between a generic statement an a personal accusation. Perhaps now you can see that there are exceptions to every generalization, which is why they're not called "absolutes." ]

    --
    John
  37. Re:fan alternatives by bxbaser · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Sure and the roi of that neat fan with all the twaeks you speak of would be something like 45 years.
    Im sure my crappy fans cost me 40 cents extra a month but the initial cost was very low.

    If you are talking about just the energy savings you would be better by increasing average automobile mileage by 10%

  38. Re:No Rest for the Wicked... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Informative
    The UK socket design is much safer than the US counterpart. For one thing, there is a requirement that every appliance be earthed, both legal and mechanical. The live and neutral pins are protected by covers which are only released once the earth pin is inserted - this also helps protect children, since it is impossible to stick anything into the live pin without first opening the doors by inserting something into the earth pin. Contrast this with the US design, where the holes are unprotected, and about the right shape for a knife or a fork handle to go in.

    Finally, on all modern UK plugs the tip of the live and neutral pins are exposed, while the end nearest the plug is wrapped in plastic, so if the plug slips out a little way (much harder to happen than with the US design), it does not expose a piece of live metal somewhere easy to touch.

    Oh, and your original point was about voltage. Perhaps you have never encountered the saying 'It's the volts that jolts, but the mills that kills' - high current is far more dangerous than high voltage, and low voltage requires you to draw more current to get the same power.

    Straying even further off topic, the only sockets allowed in bathrooms in the UK are special low-drain ones with a different shape for driving electric shavers. I noticed on my last visit to the US that it is relatively common to have standard sockets in bathrooms there.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  39. Re:fan alternatives by pla · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What product is the result of the tiny increase in cost is it that you write of?

    Honestly, I don't specifically know - I don't work in the fan industry.

    But for comparison, I looked up some real numbers. One popular (on Amazon) model of 20" box fan 20" draws 166W for 2220CFM, or 13.4 CFM/W. An 18" oscillating pedestal fan draws 119W for 1970CFM, or 16.6 CFM/W. And a ceiling fan... Energy Star actually rates those, so they have motivation to perform well for the power they draw. And they do - I can't even do a "fair" comparison based on either power or CFM, because the bad ones do over 100 CFM/W, with the best ones passing 200!


    Of course, that doesn't address price - Amazon has several models of ceiling fan for under $50. The above-mentioned box fan (the Air King 9723) goes for $39.99. Not pennies, but FAR less of a difference in price than the difference in power consumption.

  40. Re:bad editing by benjamindees · · Score: 2, Informative

    why even bother mixing up the concepts of power and energy ?

    I agree. I've been thinking writers should just do away with the Watt altogether. The problem is that people tend to think a "Watt" is a unit of energy, rather than power. It's normal to hear "Watt" and think it's a thing you can hold in your hand, and that an appliance should use a "Watt/second", even though that's ludicrous.

    The standard unit of power should be: "joule/second (Watt)". And the unit of energy, anything previously measured in kWh or BTU, should just be changed to megajoules.

    Sometimes I think that the whole confusion is a conspiracy to make units intentionally incomprehensible.

    --
    "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
  41. Re:How about you ask the industry to make more pow by Technician · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What's the point of making more energy when a good chunk of it will go to waste? Green energy is good, but it's not to be wasted.

    I agree, but sometimes the articles focus on the needle and not the haystack.

    First point... Commuting and green cars. Getting great gas milage is fine, but moving from a small town to the big city for a better job changed my commute from a 10 minute walk to a 45 minute drive each way. Zoning is OK to a point, but a mix of houses and businesses and schools is better than having a city center and bedroom communities which only have strip malls, convience stores, schools and parks. How about putting low/non polluting industry in some neighborhoods for low distance commutes?

    Long commutes is our biggest gas waste. City planners need to focus on getting homes/jobs/schools/parks less spread out. Traffic/pollution/costs all decrease when consolidated.

    Second point.. With heat, light, AC, entertainment, communications stuff on a typical house with a family of 4, energy costs for many is in the neighborhood of 30KWH/day. A 100 watt idle draw for everyting in the house is 2.4 KWH/day. I am saving more moving to a house with 6 inch walls, insulated floors, a foot of insulation in the attic from my old house with uninsulated floors and R-11 walls and R14 roof.
    At 0.12/KWH the 2.4KWH/day is a small portion of my electric & heating energy costs.

    A note on the TV idle draw. It isn't the remote reciever that is the power hog. It's the pre-warmed picture tube. I used to repair TV's and got to know the hot when off sections. Cold/hot cycling of the tube shortens the tube life and makes long warm-up times. Having the tube 3/4 warm drasticly reduces thermal cycle shocks and makes them almost instant-on. Some early (1970's Jimmy Carter years) instant on sets had an energy saver switch on the back that would turn off this feature. Cost cutting in manufacturing eliminated the seldom used switch. Pick up a plug in cycle timer (I know more idle watts) to power down the TV, cable box/satelite box, broadband modem, and stereo system at night and morning when nobody is home. They often are all located together. Some electronic progrommable timers draw very little power.

    Add a wind up timer to your bathroom fan. Forgetting to turn off the fan after clearing the steam from your morning shower can dump a lot of heated/cooled air out of the house. This is one place a $20 timer can pay for itself in a short time. It saves not only the power the fan uses, but also the cost of the heated/cooled air that gets dumped from excessive run-times.

    Add a motion wall switch to your hall and stairway light. No need to leave it on all the time anymore.

    --
    The truth shall set you free!