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Einstein's Biggest Blunder That Wasn't

jose parinas writes "The genius of Albert Einstein, who added a "cosmological constant" to his equation for the expansion of the universe but later retracted it, may be vindicated by new research. The enigmatic "dark energy" that drives the acceleration of the Universe behaves just like Einstein's famed cosmological constant, according to the Supernova Legacy Survey (SNLS). Their observations reveal that the dark energy behaves like Einstein's cosmological constant to a precision of 10%."

65 of 303 comments (clear)

  1. What is the cosmological constant ? by $exyNerdie · · Score: 5, Informative

    The cosmological constant is an extra term in Einstein's equations of general relativity which physically represents the possibility that there is a density and pressure associated with "empty" space. The inclusion of this vacuum energy term can greatly effect cosmological theories.
    http://super.colorado.edu/~michaele/Lambda/lambda. html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_constant

    1. Re:What is the cosmological constant ? by Seumas · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yet more "science" aiming to push baby jesus out of my fifteen childrens' school. This country was founded on gawd! Take your heathen "knowledge" to some other third-world country, you sick freaks!

  2. Awesome by CriminalNerd · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Will Einstein's genius never cease to amaze us post-humously? Probably not.

    This will be a great thing for students to look up if they are doing (or going to do) relativity in school.

    1. Re:Awesome by OzRoy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Einstein put in the constant as a fudge because he wanted his equation to match the data. At the time people were not aware of the exanding nature of the universe. I don't think he ever liked using the constant, and was relieved when it turned out it wasn't necessary. Everything was neat again.

  3. Dark matter ... by karvind · · Score: 2, Informative
    Well GR still explains the dark matter.

    Can anyone explain the idea behind dark matter and dark energy ? I mean if it is just a mathematical problem or has some experimental justification as well.

    1. Re:Dark matter ... by Lisandro · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'm no physicist, by a long shot :) but the idea of dark matter comes from the fact that some phenomenons on the the visible universe (rotation of galaxies, particularly, IIRC) can't be explained with our current knowledge of physics - there's simply not enough matter for them to behave like they do. Hence, we now have this notion of dark matter; mass that affects other mass (gravity and such)... but can't be detected by conventional means. It's a stopgap to make measurements fit our current theories, as i see it.

          Dark energy is more of the same, and tries to account for the visible expansion of the universe.

    2. Re:Dark matter ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well GR still explains the dark matter.

      No, it doesn't. Even if their result was right, which it doesn't seem to be, it never explained all the observations which imply dark matter; it only accounted for galactic rotation curves.

      Can anyone explain the idea behind dark matter and dark energy ? I mean if it is just a mathematical problem or has some experimental justification as well.

      Of course it has experimental justification. That's why it's such a big deal.

      Dark matter is, well, non-luminous matter. The observations which imply its existence are summarized in my above link. Various lines of argument imply that most of the dark matter is probably in the form of some kind of unknown particle which is massive but weakly interacting, quite possibly an axion or a supersymmetric partner.

      Dark energy is a field that has negative pressure. The observations which imply its existence include supernova luminosity-redshift curves, and the cosmic microwave background spectrum. It is much more mysterious than dark matter. It could be Einstein's cosmological constant, it could be the zero point energy of the quantum vacuum, it could be some kind of new field (such as "quintessence").
    3. Re:Dark matter ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
      ...[dark energy] tries to account for the visible expansion of the universe.
      [dark energy] tries to account for the visible acceleration of the expansion of the universe.
    4. Re:Dark matter ... by Jerry+Coffin · · Score: 4, Informative

      Can anyone explain the idea behind dark matter and dark energy ? I mean if it is just a mathematical problem or has some experimental justification as well.

      Fair Warning: what follows is a really simplified version of reality, and at least a couple of points go beyond simplification to the point that they're arguably flat out wrong. If somebody wants to correct part or all of this, please feel free, but if you do so please try to keep with the spirit of actually explaining things so they're understandable.

      The situation with dark matter is simpler than dark energy, so we'll start with that.

      We've observed a certain amount of matter in the universe. Those observations lead to a rough estimate of what the total amount of matter in the universe might be.

      Now, there was a certain amount of energy released in the big bang. For quite a while, it was assumed to be the primary reason that the universe was expanding. I.e. there as a big explosion, and matter went flying off in all directions (and we're basically just living on a bit of shrapnel from that explosion).

      Now, if there was enough matter in the universe, the gravity between it would eventually slow it down, stop it, and finally start it contracting back together. That was a rather attractive idea -- that the big bang wasn't a one-time thing, but that we just happened to be seeing evidence of the most recent occurrence.

      The problem was that our estimates of how much matter there was in the universe came out well below what was needed for there to be enough gravity to make the expansion stop and eventually reverse.

      One answer that was postulated to that was dark matter -- a lot more matter out there that we couldn't see, so it wasn't being figured into our estimates of how much matter there was in the universe. Therefore, a lot of people spent a lot of time and energy trying to find ways to observe a lot more matter than we had previously. To some extent they succeeded -- better telecsopes, observing techniques, etc., have allowed us to observe quite a bit more than we had previously.

      By this idea, however, almost regardless of the exact amount of matter in the universe, the gravity should act to slow down the expansion over time -- i.e. the energy pushing things apart was all expended during the big bang, and now gravity should be acting in the general direction of pulling things back together again or at least slowing down the rate at which they're moving apart.

      That doesn't fit reality though. In reality, it appears that the expansion of the universe is actually accelerating. The original theory was that the expansion was due to energy released during the big bang. If that was the case, the expansion of the universe should basically just be "coasting", and there's no way it could be accelerating.

      The obvious way for the expansion to accelerate is to figure that even though we generally think of the space beyond the edge of the universe as a complete vacuum, devoid of matter or energy, that there really is a little bit of something there afterall, and being a little bit of something (energy or mass) it has some gravitational pull on the matter that we think of as part of the universe, so it's more or less pulling the universe apart -- i.e. accelerating the outward movement.

      Given that the expansion of the universe is accelerating (which certainly seems to be accepted as fact right now anyway), it seems to me that the existence of the cosmological constant isn't really the question. The primary questions are 1) what is its exact value, and 2) where exactly does it come from.

      If you read the article from the University of Colorado cited elsehwere (for one example), you can find both some estimates of upper and lower limits on the value, and at least one possible explanation for its source. I've heard at least one person give what sounded (to me) like a different explanation of its source, but it wouldn't surprise me too much i

      --
      The universe is a figment of its own imagination.
    5. Re:Dark matter ... by Coryoth · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'll expand on the issue of dark matter a little. It's still rather simplified, but it is more to the point on the issue of dark matter particularly.

      The original problem that lead to postulating dark matter involves observations of galaxies. Galaxies rotate and physics makes predictions about the orbital velocity of stars in a galaxy based on their distance from the centre of the galaxy. The problem is that these predictions don't square very well with observations. In general observations show stars distant from the center of the galaxy orbiting much faster than expected. You can express this in terms of rotation curves making the problem relatively clear. The proposed solution to this is to assume that there must be extra unobserved (hence dark) mass providing extra gravitational energy, and thus extra orbital velocity, to the more outlying stars.

      There are other theories to explain the observations such as Modified Newtonian Dynamics, but they tend to run into their own problems, and currently aren't anywhere near as widely accepted as the dark matter solution.

      Jedidiah.

    6. Re:Dark matter ... by Tim+C · · Score: 4, Informative

      The proposed solution to this is to assume that there must be extra unobserved (hence dark) mass providing extra gravitational energy, and thus extra orbital velocity, to the more outlying stars.

      Just to expand on this a little, as people may not know the physics behind this...

      The stars in question are gravitationally atrracted to the centre of the galaxy, just like the Earth is gravitationally atrracted to the Sun. Just like the Earth, they must either circle the gravitational source, or "fall" towards it. In order to remain in their orbit (rather than moving inwards or outwards) their centripetal acceleration must be equal to the acceleration they feel from the gravitational pull of the galaxy. (Centripetal acceleration is the acceleration required to keep them moving in a circle)

      If the gravitational pull is too strong, they'll be pulled in towards the galactic centre; if it's too weak, they'll fly off into space.

      Measuring their orbital speed allows us to calculate their centripetal acceleration, and thus the acceleration they feel due to the gravitational pull of the galaxy. This in turn allows us to calculate the mass that is producing the gravitational field that they are in:

      v**2/r = GM/r**2

      Where v**2 is the speed of the star, squared; r is the radius of the orbit of the star; G is the gravitational constant; and M is the mass of the galaxy producing the gravitational force.

      This gives us an estimate of the mass of the galaxy of rv**2/G.

      The problem is that working through the numbers gives us a mass that's significantly higher than we can account for from what we see. So, that leaves us with three choices:

      1) our understanding of dynamics is flawed (and so v**2/r is wrong)
      2) our understanding of gravity is flawed (and so GM/r**2 is wrong)
      3) there's stuff out there that we can't (currently) detect by other means

      1) would be pretty fundamental (that's some very basic physics indeed), as would 2). That only really leaves 3) as an attractive proposition (imho).

    7. Re:Dark matter ... by ttsalo · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Now, if there was enough matter in the universe, the gravity between it would eventually slow it down, stop it, and finally start it contracting back together. That was a rather attractive idea -- that the big bang wasn't a one-time thing, but that we just happened to be seeing evidence of the most recent occurrence.

      The problem was that our estimates of how much matter there was in the universe came out well below what was needed for there to be enough gravity to make the expansion stop and eventually reverse.

      But the expansion of the universe doesn't mean that the galaxies are moving away from each other, even though this is a very, very common misconception. It means that the space itself is expanding. See 'superluminal expansion'. Yeah, I don't get it either. Why the hell would space itself be expanding and why would dark energy or matter have anything to do with it?

      --
      If the road to hell is paved with good intentions, where does the road paved with evil intentions lead to?
    8. Re:Dark matter ... by OlsonSchmolson · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I get tired of this description of the Big Bang as an explosion in the usual terms, as in things flying apart out into something, "matter flying off in all directions". It's popular science, and most people wouldn't know what the heck you were talking about if you described it any other way. But, it ought to be restated...

      It's an expansion of space, everything that is in space is just going along for the ride.

      A visual way to clarify that is to shoot down the idea people have that things cannot recede faster than light. That gets their attention, they all know about Einstein and c. Things cannot move through space faster than light, but space itself puts a distance between things that C can never outpace.

    9. Re:Dark matter ... by Peter+La+Casse · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The crazy thing is, evolution doesn't have to challenge anybody's worldview either; it's only an incomplete understanding of it that leads most of those who do into thinking that it somehow contradicts or affirms their religious opinions. The questions of the existence of God and the origin of life, the universe and everything are orthogonal to those answered by various theories of evolution. It's not the case that "evolution says where we come from, so now we don't need God," and it's not the case that science and religion are incompatible. This whole fight is just a waste of time.

  4. Still a blunder? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    IIRC, Einstein "fudged" his equations (i.e., introduced the cosmological constant) to stop them from predicting that the universe would expand. Subsequently, Hubble discovered that the universe was expanding after all. Still later, it was found that the rate of expansion was not in line with Einstein's un-fudged equations. Since then, the value of the cosmological constant has really depended on what value you measure for the expansion of the universe.

    So, why is this news?

    1. Re:Still a blunder? by Chemicalscum · · Score: 3, Informative
      So, why is this news?

      That's what I thought. However a quick scan of the article suggests that the increase in the rate of expansion can be explained better by a Cosmological constant (which is a constant unlike Hubble's constant which is not) rather than the alternative Quintessence hypothesis where the repulsive force is not constant.

      So yes this story is new and possibly important.

    2. Re:Still a blunder? by EvanED · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yeah... and it may get worse. Here's the story to the best of my knowledge:

      Einstein did some calculations and stuff and came up with two potential models of the universe. (Perhaps two solutions to his equations?) One had the universe expanding, the other contracting. Einstein called up some astronomers and asked which it was. They told him to get lost, that the universe was static. So Einstein went back and added the cosmological constant so that it matched "reality." Later Hubble was like "look, y'all, the universe is expanding," and Einstein was like "my bad" and dropped the constant.

      But here's the thing: the universe's expansion is accelerating. If it models something like the cosmological constant, that means that the extra force Einstein added must be repellant. This tells me that the model he picked to add the constant to was the contracting one. Which means that I don't see a correspondance to reality.

      There might be something deep about why about the same force would take the contracting universe model and make it static would also take the expanding universe model and make it accelerating, but I don't see what it is.

      Which means that if they turn out close, I think it's much more likely that it's just a really lucky coincidence rather than the genious of Einstein. Even if there is a deep correspondence, the fact that Einstein added it to an incorrect model to bring it to another incorrect model, and when that incorrect model was found to be incorrect renounced it, pretty much rules out the possibility that this is really an example of his genious.

      This is, at least, the reaction I have whenever I read about the cosmological constant... am I totally off-base?

    3. Re:Still a blunder? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Einstein had an expanding model, but expansion normally slows down due to gravity. The "anti-gravity" cosmological constant counteracted that and produced a static universe that neither expanded nor contracted.

      Your argument about coincidence is basically correct; Einstein didn't have a "legitimate" reason to foresee the CC. Yet adding the CC is the simplest modification to his theory that you can make, so it's no surprise that Einstein hit upon the idea, even if he (and we) didn't know why that term ought to be there.

    4. Re:Still a blunder? by woolio · · Score: 2, Funny
      ... Later Hubble was like "look, y'all, the universe is expanding," and Einstein was like "my bad" ...

      Dude, lay off the grass! --- Didn't like Einstein totally die long before the Hubble was like, launched???

      Bummer man!
    5. Re:Still a blunder? by DarkFencer · · Score: 3, Informative

      He doesn't mean the Hubble Space Telescope, he means Ediwn Hubble, the astrophysicst who the HST was named after.

    6. Re:Still a blunder? by ClickOnThis · · Score: 2, Informative

      Albert Einstein 1879-1955
      Edwin Hubble 1889-1953

      Hubble Telescope 1990-2003^H^H^H^H2007^H^H^H^H2009^H^H^H^Hwhatever

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    7. Re:Still a blunder? by TheNetAvenger · · Score: 2, Informative

      Everyone forgets to mention Hubble's 'associate', Humason.

      His work was what Hubble's Law is actually founded out, he and Hubble worked together, and he was the one that 'observed' the red shift.

      Sagan always took time to credit Humason, but very few other prominent people give him the recognition.

  5. Ohh yeah... by Elitist_Phoenix · · Score: 5, Funny

    If he's so smart how come he's dead?

    --
    "I'm going to f***ing bury that guy, I have done it before, and I will do it again. I'm going to f***ing kill Google"
    1. Re:Ohh yeah... by screwballicus · · Score: 5, Funny

      It turns out that god does throw dice. And Albert failed his saving throw. Such is life.

    2. Re:Ohh yeah... by phoenix.bam! · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You might only be joking but the quote about God throwing dice is interesting. The idea that something can be truely random was absurd to Einstiein and he might be right. Eventually it might be possible to completely predict object intereaction in a closed system with enough variables. Or crazily, matter/energy interaction anywhere in the galaxy.

  6. I contend the blunder stands! by cffrost · · Score: 3, Funny

    Alright, Einstein's blunder is no longer his "comsmological constant"...

    His blunder has merely changed to the premature retraction of his "cosmological constant."

    --
    Thank you, Edward Snowden.

    "Arguments from authority are worthless." —Carl Sagan
  7. Re:Precision? by ClickOnThis · · Score: 4, Informative

    In astronomy (and other fields) you often have to live with large errors. That doesn't mean the science isn't valid. If the errors on your data are 10% and your theory is within the 10% error of your data, then fine, you have not invalidated the theory. On the other hand, if your error is 5% and the discrepancy with the theory is 10%, then you have something to think about.

    --
    If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
  8. Imagine? by dorkygeek · · Score: 4, Funny
    Imagine a Beowulf cluster of Einsteins.

    --
    Windows is like decaf - it tastes like the real thing, but it won't get you through the day.
    1. Re:Imagine? by Crystalmonkey · · Score: 2, Funny

      It would be a lot like Windows, I suppose. Corpses don't provide much computing power either.

  9. Just confirms the conspiracy theory... by OpenGLFan · · Score: 2, Funny
    That just confirms the conspiracy theory that Einstein didn't actually come up with the Theory of Relativity himself, but was given it by aliens. I mean, c'mon, he was a patent clerk! That's like Bob from Accounting proving Fermat's Last Theorem.


    The aliens gave him the theory -- including the cosmological constant. Unfortunately, there wasn't actually a justification for it. Thinking quickly, Einstein ad-libbed that it without it, the universe would be expanding, "and, uhh, we all know that's not true, right, fellas?", sacrificing the chance to be the first one to "predict" this. He copied the answer from the back of the book and got busted for not showing all the work. C'mon, who hasn't that happened to?

    /With tongue firmly in cheek...

  10. Re:what dark matter? by Tickle+Cricket · · Score: 5, Informative

    Scientists did not prove anything. Some merely published a theory. It is not in anyway proven. Science is not like engingeering where it either works or doesn't. The scientific process takes a while, and dark matter and dark energy are still a vital theory in explaining expansion of the universe. So please don't tell me Dark Energy doesn't matter, because if that's true, I'm wasting a lot of my time.

  11. That's for sure by roman_mir · · Score: 2, Funny

    G.W. Bush is alive, what a genius!

  12. Studies Show... by ThndrShk2k · · Score: 4, Funny

    In later years, studies will show that Einstein actually CREATED the universe in some kind of unconcious blunder, giving him the "Genius" over the universal equations we praise today.

    What a fraud, and I would assume would be then, a god.

    --

    ~--~
    Do not mind the one with the crazy, for he is sane
  13. I thought we didn't need... by Pedrito · · Score: 2, Informative

    dark matter anymore as per this past story.

    Granted, it's unproven at this point, but Occam's Razor and all, I vote for the theory that makes sense with matter and energy as-is and doesn't require some exotic matter/energy that exists only as speculation to fill an unknown.

    1. Re:I thought we didn't need... by Vellmont · · Score: 2, Informative


      I vote for the theory that makes sense with matter and energy as-is and doesn't require some exotic matter/energy that exists only as speculation to fill an unknown.


      And I think most scientists would agree with you. Of course you still have to come up with this theory you speak of that explains all observations without requiring exotic matter/energy that hasn't been directly observed.

      (psst... this story is about dark energy, not dark matter).

      The evidence for dark energy is that the expansion of the universe is speeding up, not slowing down. We'd expect that the expansion of the universe would be slowing down, because all the mass in the universe should be attracting everything to everything else. We don't see that, in fact we see the exact opposite. This means there must be some kind of "anti-gravity" force that operates at very large distances. The current accepted way this happens is called "dark energy".

      --
      AccountKiller
  14. Hardly Einstein's biggest blunder... by Goonie · · Score: 2, Interesting

    IIRC his biggest blunder was discounting quantum physics and spending the last half of his life trying to come up with an alternative model that didn't require the universe to be probabilistic.

    --

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
    --Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
    1. Re:Hardly Einstein's biggest blunder... by servognome · · Score: 3, Funny

      IIRC his biggest blunder was discounting quantum physics and spending the last half of his life trying to come up with an alternative model that didn't require the universe to be probabilistic.

      That's not a blunder, that's a difference of opinion.

      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    2. Re:Hardly Einstein's biggest blunder... by joeyblades · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not exactly. Einstein was all over quantum physics and was one of the biggest contributors in the early days. You are right that he never accepted the probablistic aspects of quantum **MECHANICS**. In other words, he didn't like the math. There are a lot of people in the field who still agree with Einstein. i.e that probabilty is just a convenient way of predicting the outcome of quantum events, but does not reflect what is **REALLY** going on at the quantum level...

  15. Cosmological pressure by whig · · Score: 2, Informative

    Consider a spherical mass of uniform density. If an observer stands at the surface, the gravitational vectors sum to a unit vector from surface to center. If the observer stands at the center of the mass, the gravitational vectors sum to zero (all vectors cancel). If the observer stands at any location in between the first and second position, the gravitational vectors can be given as two sums, zero (canceled) for an equidistant radius from the observer's position to the surface and towards the center, and a distance vector from the observer's position and the residual (uncanceled) mass.

    The distance vector between the observer and the residual center of mass is constant at any point between the surface and the center of the mass. The residual mass decreases linearly as the observer descends towards the center. The gravitational force on the observer decreases linearly to zero over this domain. The radius of the sphere is the radius of maximum gravitation.

    Gravitational force may cause the radius of the sphere to contract. As the radius shrinks, it approaches the center of mass and therefore increases the gravitational force upon an observer standing at the radius as the inverse square of the change in radius until it relativistically approaches a point at which escape velocity equals the speed of light. To an external observer, the radius will seem to shrink more and more slowly until it seems to stop as it approaches this point. Likewise for the internal observer, but neither mass nor energy can now escape from inside the radius to the outside, so we cannot communicate with him unless we shift our perspective to his.

    Staying with our external perspective for the moment, however, we can measure the gravitational force at some distance from the radius, and observe how it acts upon other masses. Nearby matter may get swept into this gravity well, adding to the total mass of our system and increasing its externally determinable radius. But by appearing to slow down and stop at a radius greater than that of our original mass, it would not seem to reach the original radius at all.

    Now let's depart our external universe and try to figure out what's going on with our inside observer. First of all, he's not seeing any in-falling matter because his frame of reference is also much slower than that of the radius, in fact he'd have to wait infinitely long before anything like that would happen, so let's just say it doesn't. But that doesn't mean that he cannot observe any effects at all.

    What our man on the inside discovers is that there is intense energy, in the form of pressure, being applied to his little micro-universe. This pressure continues to build and build, charging our little spherical mass like a battery, until maximum energy density is reached. But the pressure continues, so the mass does what it has to do, it inflates.

    Our mass isn't just expanding in space; it is expanding "space." As pressure energy continues to pour in, the inflation continues until certain physical properties of matter and energy begin to assert themselves; and the inflation proceeds outwards and away from the original mass -- into the new universe.

    This is one possible explanation of how our universe may have begun. In searching for evidence of such a hypothesis, one might hope to find some sort of inflationary pressure which seems to operate against gravity. Since this "dark energy" seems probably, this may be a feasible cosmology.

    --
    Peace and love, y'all
    1. Re:Cosmological pressure by whig · · Score: 4, Funny

      It's tortoises all the way down, don't you know?

      --
      Peace and love, y'all
  16. I can't take it... (grammar nazi alert) by ChadN · · Score: 5, Informative

    "Affect"... "Can greatly affect"... 'effect' is a different word, with a different usage.

    An informative post, and I'll accept moderator punishment for grammar nazi-ism.

    --
    "It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
    1. Re:I can't take it... (grammar nazi alert) by 21mhz · · Score: 5, Funny

      grammar nazi-ism.

      You should have spelled it just 'nazism'.

      --
      My exception safety is -fno-exceptions.
    2. Re:I can't take it... (grammar nazi alert) by Phisbut · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Still it's rude and it's a way to humiliate a member for something %80 of people make.

      If it's such a common mistake, then maybe it is a *good* thing to point it out in an attempt to educate the masses, wouldn't you think so? There was nothing humiliating in the way the grammar-nazi pointed it out. If one feels humiliated simply because somebody pointed out an error, then that person has issues.

      --
      After 3 days without programming, life becomes meaningless
      - The Tao of Programming
  17. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Informative

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  18. Re:what dark matter? by smeek · · Score: 2, Informative

    Despite the theoretical blunder of a few (I find it doubtful that anyone would use Newtonian mechanics to calculate cosmological problems anymore), most people are using GR for their calculations, and this is a real effect. There is an acceleration that, if the data on redshift vs. distance is correct, can only be explained within GR by adding a repulsive term to the equations.

    Remember, these publications are peer reviewed. If the mistake were that simple, the reviewers should have caught it.

  19. Slashdot headlines != reality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    last month scientists proved that they were wrongly using newtonian physics to measure the amount of matter in the universe, but when they changed their equations to einsteinian physics, there was no need of any dark matter to make up 'lost' matter in the universe.

    That turns out not to be the case. And I was far from the only poster to point that out. Please read the Slashdot comments for critical analysis, not just the blurbs.

    Besides which, dark matter has nothing to do with dark energy.
  20. Premature Retraction? by rogerborn · · Score: 2, Funny

    I hate that problem !

    Isn't there a medical solution for these things?

    Do astronomers have more of these than the rest of us?
    Or do physicists and mathematicians also suffer from it?

    Gads, even Einstein had the problem.

  21. Re:Come back Einstein by Leroy_Brown242 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Einstein and Hoffa are chillin' on the dark side of the moon.

    They're just waiting for someone to come pick them up. :)

  22. Density, exactly... by rmdyer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    That's my take on modern cosmology. That there exists this one substance, the vacum substance, the stubstance of space-time itself. It can be imagined as a drop of water, or equally as a cloud of moisture. It contains volumes within it that are "denser" than other volumes. We say that there is "more space" (or less?) within those volumes. All "material" goods are then just some kind of configuration of this "space-time" stuff. I think also that based on quantum mechanics, and the "Beckenstein bound", material within a given volume can be realized in much the same way pictures are made up of "pixels" on a computer screen. Think of it. Your computer screen resolution determines all objects that are "realizable" within its resolution. The Beckenstein bound then formulates a given volume for space-time in which objects of a given size can fit. The relationship of the "density" of space-time then should directly influence the Beckenstein bound such that, if there is "more space", then there should be the possibility of a larger number of possible quantum states within the abstract volume of space-time.

    If you had a glass sphere the size of a basketball, what are all the material objects that are realizable within that space? Well, we can put car keys, pens, small animals/insects, etc. But we cannot put a house inside a basketball right? Well maybe a doll house. But how would we go about putting a real house in a volume the size of a basketball? Simple, just increase the density of space-time within that abstract volume. That will increase the number of quantum states possible just like increasing the resolution of your computer screen. But what do we mean when we say "space is dense"? Since the vacum is matters "opposite", we would probably conclude that space would be "denser" where matter is not. So we might say that within a "black-hole" there is theoretically "no space". A black hole would then indeed be a hold within space-time, a tear in the fabric of reality for example. But this may not be the case. It could be that a black hole is a place were the density of space is so high as to be exactly "solid" space-time. In this respect matter flows into a black hole and then becomes converted to "space-time", which then slowly and inexorably flows outward. Space-time is being generated by a black-hole by the conversion of matter to space-time.

    If space-time is a substance of some kind, and all matter is just some configuration of it, then that would explain why we cannot move faster than light. This would be the case if we were somehow made of configurations and vortices of "air". Since we being made of "air", we could not move faster than sound right? Of course doesn't the speed of sound vary with the density of air? Would not the speed of light vary with the density of space-time? Of course it does, this was Einsteins great find, that light travels along a space-time geodesic. The geodesic caused by the "density" of space-time.

    Based on all these analogies, I don't see why we have to think about the fourth dimension at all. We just need to imagine space-time as a volume with varying densities. Within a high density of space-time, you can have more matter, and more quantum states. It is abstract I know, but for my mind it works. Is there a reason that these analogies can be viewed as "wrong"? I'm willing to take an alternate view.

    1. Re:Density, exactly... by Trebonius · · Score: 2, Informative

      There is the theory of the Moebieus: a twist in the fabric of space, where time becomes a loop. Where time becomes a loop. Where time becomes a loop. Where time becomes a loop. Where time becomes a loop...
      -- Worf

    2. Re:Density, exactly... by earthbound+kid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How would you know that space-time was denser? When you move your ruler inside of it, wouldn't the ruler's size fit the density of space, showing in the case of the basketball that can fit a house that it actually is the size of a house, since it can fit a house's worth of rulers inside? Since space is just a measure of distance and distance is a measure of chemical bonds strengths over space and whatnot, it seems like it would be hard to measure space to be any more or less than 1/1.

    3. Re:Density, exactly... by rmdyer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You are correct. The problem we have here is that these "volumes of density" are abstract. But your reasoning is exactly the problem we encounter with the Michelson-Morley Experiment right? We seem to find that light is the same speed in all directions, proving that the "ether" doesn't exist. The basic problem with the "old ether" is that ether was some kind of substance. I find this view of ether silly since space-time itself isn't a "substance" it is the opposite of substance, of matter itself...it is "space". As in, what is the volume that surrounds matter? SPACE. In my original analogy, imagine again that nothing exists except for "air". Matter then would be "configurations" of "air". Matter would be some kind of "vortices" or foldings of "air". Light then would be seen as a "vibration" in the "air". And since we, being made of "air" in this analogy, could never move faster than, vibrations in air.

      So how could we "prove" this model...this analogy? Well take our original glass sphere the size of a basket ball. I said you can't put a house in a basket ball right? Well what would happen if we placed a marble sized black hole inside that basket balls volume? Assuming for the moment that the glass sphere would not be crushed by the black holes high density of space-time around it (gravity), then we should be able to put very large things in there right? The problem with this analogy is that the "glass spheres" volume would neccessarily cause it to shrink, or become more dense. If space-time actually works the way we're suggesting, then you cannot have a "rigid frame of reference" made of matter, since matter itself is made of space-time. But isn't this actually the state of affairs encountered with these experiments?

      http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/relativ /mmhist.html

      From this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminiferous_aether of the Wikipedia..."Another, completely different, attempt to save "absolute" aether was made in the Lorentz-Fitzgerald contraction hypothesis, which posited that everything was affected by travel through the aether. In this theory the reason the Michelson-Morley experiment "failed" was that it contracted in length in the direction of travel. That is, the light was being affected in the "natural" manner by its travel though the aether as predicted, but so was the experiment itself, cancelling out any difference when measured. Even Lorentz was not very happy with this suggestion, although it did neatly solve the problem. Later this idea received additional support from the Kennedy-Thorndike experiment in 1932, as Kennedy and Thorndike concluded that both a Lorentz contraction as well as time dilation occur, thus "confiming special relativity".

      In order for these analogies to work, you'd have to have a "four dimensionally" rigid volume for which to measure the "density" of the 3 dimensional space-time. At least, I think. So that might mean that indeed, there is something "outside" of our own "space-time" way of measuring things.

    4. Re:Density, exactly... by Myopic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      how about detecting it without measuring it directly, like when we watch light from far away in the universe bend around various cosmic objects.

      also, is that guy describing ether? sounds like ether to me.

  23. Einstein was still wrong about the constant though by gilzreid · · Score: 5, Informative

    These stories always say it was Einstein's great blunder and it has been vindicated, but it really hasn't. The reason Einstein put it in was that he couldn't find any solutions to his equations that resulted in a static universe. (At the time, Hubble's revolutionary results on the recession of distant galaxies had not been completed, so it was thought the universe must be static) All of his model universes were expanding or contracting. So he added the constant to balance out the contraction in his favoured model (which was also closed, another historical assumption in cosmology that has been disposed of).

    OK, but the cosmological constant we see now is being used to explain the _acceleration_ of the universe, nothing like what Einstein put the constant in for. His blunder wasn't really the constant, it was the assumption that the universe was static, which turned out to be totally wrong.

    But you have to admire Einstein - out of pure thought and mathematics he produced a theory which is still held up as a foundation of modern physics, even though practically every cosmological observation was made years after he published it (and all the observations have supported the theory to great accuracy). Compare this to, say, quantum mechanics, where many theorists struggled for decades to explain observations that had already been made, and Einstein's one-man theory is truly impressive.

  24. Um by TallMatthew · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The cosmological constant balanced out equations that assume a static universe. It wasn't based on anything observed; Einstein just knew he was missing something because he couldn't get his observations to follow his math.

    If you take a snapshot of the universe, if you discount its expansion, then the existence of dark energy, remnant of the big bang, is requisite to explain certain phenomena and balance out equations.

    Why is it weird these two are similar?

  25. Reminded me of the TARDIS. by Hitman_Frost · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Using density as an analogy, as you have in your post, I couldn't help be reminded of the old TARDIS. By increasing the effective density of space-time within a police-box, you could possibly fit enough inside it to resemble that famous timeship.

    Who knows - perhaps the travelling in time and the density of space-time have further connections, even?

  26. Not exactly brilliant science is it? by n54 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    On topic:

    Fudge factor (Einstein) == fudge factor (dark energy/matter)

    What exactly is surprising about this? They were/are both added to represent something unknown, a pure speculation which is likely to fall (or be changed to the extreme) by Occams razor as science and knowledge progresses.

    http://www.astronomycafe.net/anthol/fudge.html

    Einstein retracted his fudge while still alive and I have a suspicion those championing dark matter/energy will have to as well :)

    Slightly off topic:

    Hmm was this the first valid and correct reference to Occams razor on Slashdot ever? Probably the first time here it wasn't used in a faulty manner applying it with anti-religious or ideological/political arguments (one would think people would get a clue from the fact that Occams razor was created by a Franciscan friar).

    religion != science
    Occams razor = intended for scientific theories (given two equally predictive theories, choose the simpler)
    Occams razor != rational to apply to religion

    *doesn't even need a flameretardant suit*

    --
    this comment is provided "as is" and without any express or implied legibility or congruity [...]
    1. Re:Not exactly brilliant science is it? by Chemicalscum · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Einstein retracted his fudge while still alive and I have a suspicion those championing dark matter/energy will have to as well :)

      Prior to the experimental (observational) discovery of the increasing rate of expansion of the observable universe (part of the multiverse ?) many physicists regarded the cosmological as essential to general relativity. Coleman for one asked the question why is the cosmological constant zero and proposed a hypothesis based on wormholes between universes to explain why it should be zero. Inflationary big bang theories suggest a very high vacuuum energy (dark energy) which manifests itself as a cosmological constant. This vacuum energy arises from quantum theory rather than GR, or at any rate as a result of the uneasy coexistance of QT and GR in inflationary theories.

      The result is that the expectation value of the vacuum energy should be much greater than required by the observational data for the increasing rate of expansion of the observable univese. Weinberg has proposed that selection on the basis of the weak anthopic principle from a multiverse composed of universes with the full range of possible values of the cosmological constant 9as a result of quantum uncertainty during the big bang) to explain why the value of the cosmological constant we observe.

      IANAP but I am a chemist who suffers from physics envy (as Niles Eldredge put it) who occasionally consults the original papers coming out on arXiv.org to try to undertand what is going on in cosmology.

  27. Re:what dark matter? by a.d.trick · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Indeed, and science is not like mathematics either. Newton and company were very wrong about this. With math 2+2!=5 (even for extremely large 2 :P), but in science all you have is theories drawn from lots of anecdotal evidence. If the evidence contradics the theory, then the theory is obviously wrong (or the evidence is not what we think it is).

    For this reason science and religion are not at odds because they server very difference purposes. Sure, they have some effect on each other, but I can believe that Darwin was a genius and still appreciate the significance of the Genesis creation story.

  28. Re:... or Light matter? by geordieboy · · Score: 2, Informative

    They don't have mass (any zero mass particle travels at the speed of light) but they do have energy (E=mc^2 doesn't work for a photon...)

    The photon energy is taken into account, but it's currently a tiny fraction of the total energy (most of which is dark energy, the rest mostly dark matter - which does obey E=mc^2). If i recall corrrectly, currently the photons (namely the cosmic microwave background) contribute 0.004 of the total energy (starlight probably contributes less, but I could be wrong). In the past, however, photons dominated the energy (photons cooled over time due to redshifting, so they were very hot and energetic in the past).

    --
    The world is everything that is the case
  29. Expansion... by aaribaud · · Score: 2, Funny
    I'll expand [...]
    Just to expand on this [...]
    Is it me, or do people seem to be increasingly expanding nowadays?
  30. Stupid Question by miyako · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I realize that this is probably a stupid question. I haven't had the math or physics yet to really understand probably all the reasons it's a stupid question, so I'll put it out there and see what people have to say on this (slightly) off-topic issue.
    Why is it not possible that the universe is simultaneously expanding and contracting?
    One question I've had for a while is, why couldn't the universe be shaped in such a way that the force causing accelleration on the expansion of the universe is actually the gravitational force of the universe contracting.
    To sort of illustrate my point, think of the game Asteroids. If you fly out of the top of the screen, you appear back on the bottom, and if you fly out the left side of the screen, you appear on the right side. Why couldn't there be some n-dimensional version of that concept in the universe such that as it expands it's actually approaching an earlier state?
    Anyway, if this is just the stupidist thing ever, please be kind in saying so. IAONAP (I Am Obviously Not A Physisist).

    --
    Famous Last Words: "hmm...wikipedia says it's edible"
    1. Re:Stupid Question by bjorniac · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Not a stupid question at all.

      It is possible to have the universe expand and contract in different directions at the same time. However, this isn't what we observe. Two of the basic ideas about the universe we assume to be broadly true (yes, not exactly but to a good approximation) are

      1) It is homogeneous. This is math speak for it's the same at every point
      2) It is isotropic. Math speak for looks the same in every direction.

      Now, this clearly isn't exactly true - if it were there would be no difference between the earth and an empty vacuum of the same size. However, on a very very large scale (where galaxies appear like point particles because they are so small) this appears to be true. We get this from the Cosmic Microwave Background - a set of rays that fly towards us from all around the universe in a fairly uniform manner. Also when you look at the "Redshift" of galaxies (like the doppler shift of sound makes a siren sound higher when an ambulance approaches and lower when it moves away) it looks like all galaxies are moving apart from one another in equivalent directions. So we guess that the universe is largely isotropic and homogeneous, make a broad model and then do corrections (perturbations about the solutions to the equations) for the bits that aren't.

      So given the idea that it's isotropic and homogeneous we get that it must expand at the same rate in all directions etc. However, there's nothing in the everyday physics to say that it necessarily is - just the observations of some cosmic phenomena.

      The asteroids thing is kind of a side point - that's more to do with the topology of the universe. Asteroids is like a torus (or donut with a hole) shape - you go one way for a while you end up back where you started. Some models of the universe have the universe be a 3-torus (an extension of the donut in another dimension, cue Homer drool). However, the universe is broadly thought to be either flat (just like regular space looks) a 3-sphere (like a ball but with another dimension again) or a hyperboloid (hard to explain, but like the inverse of the sphere). This all depends on the matter in the universe and the cosmological constant in a fairly complex way.

      Although if you mean that the universe could cycle, that again is possible - it could expand, contract, expand again indefinitely. If you look at the works of Bojowald, for example, on Loop Quantum Gravity he seems to think that the big bang could be just part of a cycle of expansion and contraction.

  31. Re:Dark Matter; whatever.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There is no proof for the existance of Dark Matter or Dark Energy. They were both created to explain-away the shortcomings of some popular theories.

    There is never "proof" of anything in science. For dark energy, there is good evidence that the acceleration of the universe is expanding, and the cause of that expansion has been dubbed "dark energy", whatever it is. For dark matter, there are a lot of independent lines evidence which consistently indicate there is a great deal of unseen matter in the universe, and we even have some pretty good ideas on what it could be.

    Coincidentally, there is no proof that the universe is expanding. Most people don't know this because the 'bangers' (big-bangers, specifically) have been loudy shouting out their theory for so long..

    There is no "proof" of anything in physics, but the expansion of the universe has been extremely well established in by observations.

    Google 'no big bang' or 'compton effect'.

    Yeah, Google 'compton effect' (and here and here).

    Sorry, but there are no existing alternatives to the expansion of the universe. If you had a modicum of physics education, you'd understand why. That is not to say that no such alternative can exist -- see "there is no proof in physics" -- but the evidence in favor of expansion is quite strong and you have to go through far more contortions to get an alternative to work than the current crop of naive crackpot models.
  32. Re:Einstein was still wrong about the constant tho by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "and Einstein's one-man theory is truly impressive."
    Its impressive, but far from being a one-man theory. It was also supported by experiment, namely the famous Michelson-Morley experiment that ruled out a preferred "ether" frame for the propagation of light.Special relativity also drew from works by poincare, lorentz, hilbert, and others. Einstein's greatness was both in bringing everything into one coherent picture, and in having the courage to do so when almost none of his colleagues at that time believed a word of it.