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Free60 Project Aims for Linux on Xbox 360
BlueMoon writes "The Free60 Project wiki and developers mailinglist has been launched. The project aims to port open source operating systems like GNU/Linux and Darwin to the Microsoft Xbox 360 gaming console.
The site already contains some interesting details about the Xbox 360 security: per-box key stored on CPU, boot ROM will be on CPU too and a hypervisor verifies the running state of the kernel."
*Starts the "Time-to-360-hacked" Stopwatch....*
-ND
Being a triple core 3.2GHz PowerPC it would be cool to get OS X running on the XBOX 360.
They want to run KDE.
If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
This goes extremely well with my solution to the overheating problem:
I suggest that correct this problem that you transform your "XBox" into the form it should have originally been in:
1) Buy MicroATX case (with powersupply)
2) Rip apart XBox
3) Rebuild your computer. err XBox.
Done Right?
and I suppose:
4) Install Linux and stop buying those ridiculously priced games.
Proof by very large bribes. QED.
Because the most important question of all must once again be answered, "yeah, but does it run linux?"
...until that overheating problem is solved...
If they're too quick at crackin the new box, microsoft will patch the other xboxes they'll be making. I'd imagine that's one of the reasons they released so few at this time. The other major one being that they didn't wanna get slapped with too many lawsuits concerning house fires.
Assuming that the hypervisor technology in the xbox360 is really the IBM hypervisor, than the linux community could have access to the patents involved in this technology, making it a lot easier (as in really tough job to in just a bit less realy tough job) to get linux running on the xbox. Maybe it is possible to run it in a VM under xbox windows (I guess internally in microsoft this might be called xwindows).
My wife's sketchblog Blob[p]: Gastrono-me
...because a lot of good came out of the original Xbox being hacked. I'm sure there are a lot of high-perf researchers on a shoestring who are eyeing the price on the basic Xbox 360. Even without a hard disk, a small memory card should be enough to house a basic computation/communications infrastructure, and with the retail price on the basic 360, you should be able to string a bunch of them together to get decent computing power at a price even lower than a low-end Beowulf. I understand that the obvious application of hacking the 360 is so that you can play pirated games, but I for one am eagerly waiting to see what comes out of this project, and the PS3-hack that is soon to be.
An old-timer with old-timey ideas.
Interesting source of the information: I met someone on the IRC the other day who told me the following...
The biggest thing I wonder about in "The key is stored inside the CPU". This adds cost, but it is possible. It means that to execute your own code, the serial number must be determined so that a replacement flash chip can be properly encrypted. I'm betting it's pretty hard to find this number out without taking apart the processor.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
I already know 1st step "HowTo run Linux on your XBox 360" - it's:
;-)
1, Attach your XBox on a string so it can be c00l enough
I've long thought that the only reason MS decided to go with the smaller laptop drives is their drastically reduced capacity. Does the lure of piracy decrease with the size of the Hard Drive? I'll admit that on my modded XBox, I prefer to rip all of my *legit* games to the HD, just for easy access. Anybody else think the same way?
Well, if the device actually works (and the apparent overheating issues worked out) you will end up with a low cost, low profile machine with TV-out that can be used as a media center box while (in a perfect world) being able to still playing XBox games online.
One box to do it all. You get a lot by being able to run your own OS on the box. Don't troll with unintelligent comments, it's not worth it.
Because the XBox 360 could run a virtual Mac Mini and still have enough CPU left to play Quake 3?
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
An Indian Psycologist (whose name went something like Sikh Sent Mahalia - but I'm sure I totally mangled it, and can't lay my hands on the book) identified the necessary components of "flow" as skills, rules, goals, and feedback. For any activity, whether work or play, if you lack the skill, or if the activity is too easy or too hard, you are frustrated and unhappy. If you can't discern the rules (or meta rules), you are frustrated and unhappy. If there is no goal, you are frustrated and unhappy. If there is no feedback on your progress, you are frustrated and unhappy.
Sports like football have all the components (for those with the skill), and there is "flow". Putting linux on machines designed to prevent that very thing is like a game of football for geeks. It requires skill (is not too easy), but has been and probably can be done (is not too hard). The rules are those of logic and electronics. The goal is clear, and there is feedback along the way as you (carefully arrange to) see evidence of the system running your code further and further along in the boot process.
It can get frustrating if there is a lack of feedback - you can't find a visible bit to twiddle to show the code has gotten to a specific point.
because game consoles, too, want to be free.
The grass is always greener on the other side of the light cone.
And they want to open something in OpenOffice.
It just gives that fuzzy feeling that Microsoft has paid $126 for your Linux box.
Enjoy
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/06/30
You missed the whole point of being a geek. Sorry, slashdot is not for you, don't come back.
To cracking the Trusted Computing hardware.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
As other posters have noted, game consoles share the distinctive trait of standardized, special-purpose hardware, on which a general-purpose Linux OS is installed. But even the best game consoles make for pretty poor PCs if you just look at the specs, so it seems to me that this is more of a proof-of-concept and the sheer devilish joy of seeing Tux on an Xbox.
But is it not possible to modify a distro for specifically that set of hardware that comes with, say, the Xbox 360? Would the gain in performance not be equal to that of games software written for that set of hardware?
The grass is always greener on the other side of the light cone.
Hello fellow slashdotters, I've been reading slashdot for several years but this is ourageous.
As the Executive Sales Manager for Microsoft XBox 360 I don't see this as news but a direct
illegal action against the Microsoft corporation. Hacking the XBox hardware which the machine was
not originally intended for will be further looked into by the FBI and CIA as it is considered a
hostile Terrorist action against the United States of America's privatly owned enterprises. We
have the governments full support to fight this Communist plague and any attempt to interfere or
hinder this investigation will result in an immediate hostile response.
Before they try porting Gentoo to it.
I mean seriously ... why not put Linux on the XBox? If there are some hackers out there that get their rocks off porting Linux to everything from new architectures to dead badgers, then more power to them if they want to tackle the X360, too.
And IMO it'd be pretty damn cool to have 1) the power and 2) the form-factor in a general-purpose box.
Who doesn't like free music?
He's a motivational psychologist studying performance and reward, his name is Csikszentmihalyi, and he's Hungarian, not Indian.
microsoft don't care if you run linux on the xbox. they wont loose that much money. (i know that currently they loose a bit on each xbox they sell, but the more they sell, the more they can push manufacturing costs down).
.gov. then they have no competitors.
when 360.0 is cracked, they'll learn how it was done, and make 360.1 more secure. same when people crack 360.1 etc. all the xbox linux code will be open source so they can have a good look at the methods used.
this is all good practice for them so that oneday they'll be able to make a computer that will only run windows and signed code. then they'll claim that anyone not using their secure platform must be a hacker or software/music pirate. then they lobby the
I know that was a joke, but the appeal of getting linux on the Xbox for me is to be able to run MythFrontend for all my video needs... which requires QT and tends to be a little clunky on ancient machines. Not that you need 3.2 ghz processors, but hey, the XBox is cheaper than a new machine.
Renderfarm maybe?
If only we could port Vray, Mental Ray and PRman to it.
Cheap renderfarm networked together. Need lots of cooling though from what I understand about the 360
"Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
This is (as far as I know) the very first Trusted Computing platform that we can put our hands on. Very, very interesting. And it is well done (no obvious flaws).
If somebody can break that, we may be safe! That or they may build a more secure one, but we'll be safe for more time anyway.
Rethinking email
I think it's a worthy cause to have an open source operating system working on every piece of equipment that is capable of it. Plenty of reasons it might come in handy some day (post-apocolyptic being the most entertaining one to think about)... Of course, the 360 also happens to have a fair amount of horsepower for the price (for now)...
Just as apple drops the PPC, Microsoft starts using it?
Mobile computing is critical to Apple's strategy (indeed - mobile PCs are going to seriously erode the desktop market), where the PowerPC had few viable options. Mobile computing doesn't really matter much to the gaming console market.
But how long does that fuzzy feeling last when your system crashes because the power-supply overheated?
Then it becomes a warm fuzzy feeling.
I believe that's:
1. Get modified Xbox with Linux installed
2. Suspend on a piece of string
3. Spin 360 degrees on piece of string
4. ???
5. Profit!
special-purpose hardware
To quote A Canticle for Leibowitz, "How did that heresy get into the world after all these years?" Anything with a standard CPU inside it is general purpose. The Xbox 360 is a Turing machine...with great graphics and an overheating problem, but that doesn't affect its Turing-completeness. Your Linksys router, your graphing calculator, probably your digital clock, are all general-purpose too, if you can find how to reprogram them. This world has very few special-purpose devices left in it. The point of things being Turing-complete is so that they're not special-purpose.
Remember that anything with a microcontroller can have that chip reprogrammed. The only special-purpose chips left are probably in heavily-embedded systems like the chip inside your optical mouse or something. For most applications it's cheaper to program a general-purpose microchip in software, instead of making your own logic circuits.
That's doubletalk for "you must use MS ______ to view this content".
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
You must be new here...
It would be pretty cool if Linux worked on a 360 but please remind me again why people are trying to make it so? Aren't there enough projects crying out for some decent developer input already? Maybe I am just getting old and grumpy but this seems like a terrible waste of time that could be used to great benefit.
I consider this the logical equivalent of the question, "Couldn't they be working on a cure for cancer instead?" I cannot abide this sort of arrogant stupidity.
1) All programmers/scientists/etc. are not equivalent. Life is not some computer strategy game. You can't just wave your mouse around, pull a person off one project, put them on another, and expect the same level of productivity. Maybe the Xbox 360 project will attract people with good hardware hacking skills that aren't really applicable on anything you care about.
2) What interests you may or may not interest people of technical aptitude. Sure, a cure for cancer would be really great, but not everyone is interested in whatever field of research will finally result in it. Some people might be more interested in entomology than oncology, and some people might be more interested in getting a cheap, powerful Linux home entertainment computer than whatever makes you happy. Your desires are not everyone else's desires.
3) What doesn't interest you isn't necessarily useless. An Xbox is a very powerful multi-processor system perfect for hooking up to a home entertainment system and well suited for light distributed processing tasks. It's also fantastically cheap for what it's capable of. There are numerous potential uses for it.
4) Not everything has to be useful to be worth doing. Surprise, surprise -- the people working on this might be doing it for fun! Even if it didn't have a lot of utility, that doesn't mean it isn't worth doing if it brings someone enjoyment to do it.
In short, stuff it. You're not the dictator of the world, so quit discouraging people from pursuing interests that you don't share.
</frothing at the mouth>
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
There is no absolutely unhackable security model. Even if there is absolutely no bugs in XBOXs software (which I find highly unlikely - this is Microsoft we're talking here), you can always modify the hardware until the code you want to pass passes. Simply replace every single part if nothing else helps.
The real questions are: is there a hack that requires so little effort from the part of the user that it is worth the trouble, and if so, how long until it is discovered ?
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Mobile computing doesn't really matter much to the gaming console market.
Sure it does. GameBoy* and PSP* are profitable, and will continue to be profitable as they gain enough processing power to run re-releases of current console games in the next five years or so. A self-powered X-Box that fits into a discman-size form factor would be a killer app, and is close to being achievable today.
There are 1.1... kinds of people.
Q: Have you guys modded the Xbox360 yet?
A: No, not yet.
Softmodding involves a buffer overflow exploit using modified savegames for certain games, and involves no hardware modification.
I wear the ring.
Everyone expects that Microsoft would want to shut such a site down. Believe it or not, if the Trusted Computing Machine paradigm is to really take hold, Microsoft is going to have to wait it out. Lots of companies have worked on other tamper-proof technology. If this platform can withstand a very large portion of that attack, then they will have a reputation to be proud of - from a security perspective.
Bruce Schneier reminds us of several attributes in his book Secrets and Lies.
For the record, I have no interest in playing on a 360, much less compromizing one, but if Microsoft can apply the above principles, then they will have a reputation and platform other non-gaming industries can embrace. Even Sony couldn't buy that with money. I do, however, have my doubts that Microsoft has focused on security robustness because their first and formost motto should be "It's all about the gaming experience." Fail that and the thing dies anyway.
I don't see why there isn't a lot more enthusiasm behind this project, only 100 posts so far, and hald of them saying why hacking the X-box 360 isn't that important. I thought this site is for nerds, the type of people who would love to get there hands dirty with this type of stuff. How can there be so much exitment about the x-boxs release, not as much exitment about greatly expanding what you can do with your X-box. First off, this allows gamers a much, much larger variety of games... I might end up playing Frespace to this thing. Anything you would be able to do with a PC you could do with an X-box 360 if linux is ported to it. I intend for my next PC to be an X-box 360, microsoft gets the hardware at a reduced cost, and that reduced cost is not only carried over onto you, but is improved upon, microsoft loses $130 for each xbox sold. This is no minimalistic PC, it's much better than my current one. When the security is cracked for linux, it won't be long until mac os X or any of the BSDs are ported to. Plus, it only runs $300 for a base unit. Alright anough dealing with these non-nerds, why aren't you linux experts hacking away at this thing? Think of the boon in linux developers when all these computer users get a taste of linux, because it will so vastly improves there console. Whos' going to care about the X-box when the PS3 comes? The faster it is ported, the more people who will be exposed to Linux, and end up developing it and making it better. Plus, the sooner I get my PC. How can you turn down this challenge? I wish they would have another one of those contests, were that guy got $100,000 for getting linux on the first x-box without a hardware change.
Those that have a system with the HD and intend to keep it standing vertically, may want to think twice about that.
It was very easy for me to kill a devkit as it fell laterally while the console was on.
I can't imagine the retail system being less sensitive to that, as it's only normal for an HD to get damaged that way.
The problem is that the thing is meant to stand up, but it's light and it doesn't have a wide base.
Watch out.
"La presi e te la pagai (480.000 Lire)"
You see.. they're taking a $129 loss on every x360 sold.. the reason is that they KNOW we're going to put Linux on it.. and the moment we do you KNOW some well meaning twit will port Gentoo to it.
Now if these buggers over heat and die regularly what do you think GENTOO is going to do to it with all that compiling?!?!
It's going to set fire to houses and KILL PEOPLE!!
Then MS can sit back and let the marketing dogs of war loose, and Linux will be branded as the child killing OS for ever and a day.
so.. which of you genius Judas will be nailing Tux to a dead tree first??
"Consider how lucky you are that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far
Well, a theoretical dictator of the world not have to "discourage" people. He'd just send in the shock troops and put an end to whatever the rablle was doing. :)
And the OP's attitude wasn't *that* horrible. Things should have their value questioned at all times. The lack of questioning things leads to most of the messes we have in the world today. Watch a politician give an interview thse days. I don't think "follow up question" is even in the cirriculum of journalism schools these days.
And, yes, "doing it for fun" is a perfectly valid answer, but there's no need to Bakersfield chimp on the OP. ;-)
I bet there is some group within M$ whose job has been specifically to prevent Linux from running on the xbox 360. They better cross their fingers
Parent poster implies a very important point. No security model needs to be perfect. It just needs to be good enough that it isn't worth screwing up whatever the security model is there to protect.
If it takes 50 solder points and a week of effort, 99.9% of your users won't modify their consoles and your software sales won't be negatively impacted. If it takes a complete code re-write then finding a hash collision to get a modified console online, nobody will do it. Heck, Nintendo found that adding 2 little plastic tabs to the SNES was sufficient to greatly reduce the scope of the import market.
Security is about dissuading people from doing things, not preventing them.
The ______ Agenda
As long as these things play games online the possibility exists of a buffer overflow there as well.
I know games programmers, and while many are competent, they rarely care/have time to audit their code for security bugs.
I rarely criticize things I don't care about.
But enough already!
Look, it's reall simple... and I'm going to spell it out for you. Ready?
Microsoft makes a product (Windows) that, in most of its incarnations, basically blows. We all know that. Every day, I promote Linux to as many of my clients / customers as I can. I sell new and refurb boxes with (k)Ubuntu installed. I build low-mid range servers running Gentoo and occasionally a *BSD. I install Linux on everything I can... because I'm a geek.
Now, all that being said, the reason I get paid to install Linux on everything is because Microsoft continues to make a product (Windows) that, in most of its incarnations, basically blows.
However, they also make some other products, and some of them are actually pretty nice: mice, keyboards, and... gaming consoles. So, the question is: Since we hate Windows... we have to hate the Xbox (or mice, or keyboards, etc...)? If the answer is yes, then what about the PSy? Who do we hate more this week? Micro$oft or $ony?
Because... $ony installs rootkits on our computers... remember?
But we game (we're hanging in games.slashdot.org... right?)
So, which side do we choose? Because let's face it... you hate Microsoft and want to put them out of business (No more Xboxes, no more Windows... which means no more desktop games), and you hate Sony and don't want their rootkit installing shite, and if all that happens, then there'll only be Nintendo left and you'll hate them because they're monopolizing the gaming market.
So, here's my thing... You really hate Microsoft? Hate the part that matters and do something about it! Hate the OS, because it's insecure, because it's buggy, because it stamps out competition, innovation and growth. But do more than hate it... actively participate in offering a choice. Volunteer a little time and energy and package old PII's and PIII's w/ a light Linux and offer to assist an NPO in acclimating to it. Put your burner to good use and start burning Live/Install distros and passing them out to anyone even remotely interested. Simply put... get involved in a real way. Put the $400 you were going to spend on a 360 (to SHUT M$ DOWN, DUDE!) and buy a burning system and get to work!
But enough with this kind of psuedo-guerilla warfare talk. It's just a bit annoying. Because for every hundred of you that say something like... "Yeah, I'll install Linux on my Xbox 'cause it costs M$ money", one of us have actually done it... because we really are geeks. (And, because in a pinch, an Xbox running Linux makes a damn quick and easy backup server =D ).
And just to answer the question... yes, I do practice what I preach. My Stellar2 burns an everage of 150-200 discs a month (ranging from Live distros -- usually knoppix or Ubuntu, install discs and other OSS projects like OpenCD). And, if you'll look below, my sig is the truth... My Microsoft Partner rep does not like me... at all. Why? Because every month on the phone I ask her this question: What am I doing to help "win the war"? I'm putting the best OS I can into the hands of my clients. What are you guys doing to make that OS Windows?
Now, after a long and heated rant... I'll get back on topic with the actuall article and say this... Linux on a 360? Souns interesting... as soon as its possible, I'll try it. It'll be even nicer than Linux on the Xbox for one reason I can think of (outside of muscle & memory, of course): We can hook it up to a monitor this time!!!
Get to work, Bunny! I'm waiting to follow in your mighty big footsteps!
#SickNotWeak
If you have to mod the processor itself to get it done, it's unhackable. This is what the TCPA/Palladium/NGSCB/whatever effort is trying to get to eventually as well. Not everyone has the ability to manufacture fresh CPUs, especially of a specific design, and the silicon can't be changed afterwards.
Once you get into hardware probably very few people will attempt it. Too risky.
I don't know what circles you travel in, but I don't know *anyone* who owns an Xbox that is not modded, and that is out of about 20 to 30 Xbox owners.
The benefits of modding (namely, XBMC and the ability to play backups) are just too great to *not* do it.
It will be the same for the 360 - a hardware mod chip will be out in a matter of weeks, and everyone and their dog will have one.
bbs --> newsgroups --> IRC --> the internet
somewhere in there are mailing lists
I'm not sure why you (an AC) is badmouthing IRC, but lots of serious conversation happens in various 'official' channels. Not everyone has left IRC.
A lot of exploits for the original Xbox were worked on in IRC channels... just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it ain't happening.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
After that, rename your Xbox to "Ship of Theseus".
To the best of my knowledge there is still no crack for the Xbox that doesn't involve hardware modification.
Please improve your pitiful knowledge.
http://www.xbox-linux.org/>
Softmodding (modding with no hardware modification) is possible based on a few different methods. There are at least three games for which a savegame buffer overflow exploit is known. You can download a malicious savegame, load it from within the game, and linux boots. From there you can ftp anything you like to your hard drive. (This is the method I chose.) No hardware modification is required. Getting the savegame available to the XBOX can bit tricky. You can either buy an xbox memory card with one installed, or use a standard USB memory drive connected to the controller port -- the controller ports are standard USB with a different connector, but commercial USB adapters are available from real companies (i.e., companies with interests other than assisting you in softmodding).
Among the popular "permanent" softmods you can install onto the harddrive are font mods (buffer overflow in the font file that loads with the splash screen) and sound mods (buffer overflow in the sound processing code, for playing ripped tracks - the original MS software includes a CD ripper for inserting your own soundtracks into games that support it). (I chose the font mod).
Now that you have a mod on your hard drive, you can run unsigned code, including linux itself, alternate dashboards, or (my favorites) Xbox Media Center (not to be confused with the Media Center package Microsoft sells for Xbox) or Xbox-MAME.
A totally different way to go involves opening the XBOX, connecting its hard drive to a PC, loading linux on it, and putting it back in the XBOX. That could be considered "hardware modification" but it requires nothing more than guts and a few screwdrivers.
After some analysis, I've already discovered what appears to be a critical vulnerability already in the 360's chain of trust.
The approach will not be easy. You are required to maneuver straight down this trench and skim the surface to this point. The target area is only two meters wide. It's a small thermal exhaust port, right below the main port. The shaft leads directly to the reactor system. A precise hit will start a chain reaction which should destroy the station.
To the best of my knowledge there is still no crack for the Xbox that doesn't involve hardware modification.
Done and done.
It involves getting in through a savegame. I had this done to my XBox; it has something to do with FTPing in and replacing boot files.
Hopefully the new system gets cracked quickly; an XBox with XBox Media Center is very useful!
No new Slashdot main stories for 9 hours and counting...
going through slashdot withdrawl symptoms...!!!
faaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrkkkkkkkkkkkk!!!!!!
It's true no man is an island, but if you take a bunch of dead guys and tie 'em together, they make a good raft.