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Free60 Project Aims for Linux on Xbox 360
BlueMoon writes "The Free60 Project wiki and developers mailinglist has been launched. The project aims to port open source operating systems like GNU/Linux and Darwin to the Microsoft Xbox 360 gaming console.
The site already contains some interesting details about the Xbox 360 security: per-box key stored on CPU, boot ROM will be on CPU too and a hypervisor verifies the running state of the kernel."
*Starts the "Time-to-360-hacked" Stopwatch....*
-ND
If you want a $400 PowerPC system then why not just pickup a refurbished Mac Mini?
Being a triple core 3.2GHz PowerPC it would be cool to get OS X running on the XBOX 360.
I guess it was only a matter of time. I just dont understand why.. Linux runs great on a 486. Why would you need it on a three 3.2 GHz processors.
"You won't eat our meat, but you'll glue with our feet.." --Some cow
They want to run KDE.
If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
This goes extremely well with my solution to the overheating problem:
I suggest that correct this problem that you transform your "XBox" into the form it should have originally been in:
1) Buy MicroATX case (with powersupply)
2) Rip apart XBox
3) Rebuild your computer. err XBox.
Done Right?
and I suppose:
4) Install Linux and stop buying those ridiculously priced games.
Proof by very large bribes. QED.
...until that overheating problem is solved...
If they're too quick at crackin the new box, microsoft will patch the other xboxes they'll be making. I'd imagine that's one of the reasons they released so few at this time. The other major one being that they didn't wanna get slapped with too many lawsuits concerning house fires.
Assuming that the hypervisor technology in the xbox360 is really the IBM hypervisor, than the linux community could have access to the patents involved in this technology, making it a lot easier (as in really tough job to in just a bit less realy tough job) to get linux running on the xbox. Maybe it is possible to run it in a VM under xbox windows (I guess internally in microsoft this might be called xwindows).
My wife's sketchblog Blob[p]: Gastrono-me
Just as apple drops the PPC, Microsoft starts using it?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
...because a lot of good came out of the original Xbox being hacked. I'm sure there are a lot of high-perf researchers on a shoestring who are eyeing the price on the basic Xbox 360. Even without a hard disk, a small memory card should be enough to house a basic computation/communications infrastructure, and with the retail price on the basic 360, you should be able to string a bunch of them together to get decent computing power at a price even lower than a low-end Beowulf. I understand that the obvious application of hacking the 360 is so that you can play pirated games, but I for one am eagerly waiting to see what comes out of this project, and the PS3-hack that is soon to be.
An old-timer with old-timey ideas.
Interesting source of the information: I met someone on the IRC the other day who told me the following...
The biggest thing I wonder about in "The key is stored inside the CPU". This adds cost, but it is possible. It means that to execute your own code, the serial number must be determined so that a replacement flash chip can be properly encrypted. I'm betting it's pretty hard to find this number out without taking apart the processor.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
I already know 1st step "HowTo run Linux on your XBox 360" - it's:
;-)
1, Attach your XBox on a string so it can be c00l enough
I've long thought that the only reason MS decided to go with the smaller laptop drives is their drastically reduced capacity. Does the lure of piracy decrease with the size of the Hard Drive? I'll admit that on my modded XBox, I prefer to rip all of my *legit* games to the HD, just for easy access. Anybody else think the same way?
Score:4, Informative?!
This is a joke, people!
Well, if the device actually works (and the apparent overheating issues worked out) you will end up with a low cost, low profile machine with TV-out that can be used as a media center box while (in a perfect world) being able to still playing XBox games online.
One box to do it all. You get a lot by being able to run your own OS on the box. Don't troll with unintelligent comments, it's not worth it.
Well, Linux runs fine on a normal XBox (with a little tweakinga), and have you seen how cheaply you can get them for now? Really cheap mail server, if nothing else.
An Indian Psycologist (whose name went something like Sikh Sent Mahalia - but I'm sure I totally mangled it, and can't lay my hands on the book) identified the necessary components of "flow" as skills, rules, goals, and feedback. For any activity, whether work or play, if you lack the skill, or if the activity is too easy or too hard, you are frustrated and unhappy. If you can't discern the rules (or meta rules), you are frustrated and unhappy. If there is no goal, you are frustrated and unhappy. If there is no feedback on your progress, you are frustrated and unhappy.
Sports like football have all the components (for those with the skill), and there is "flow". Putting linux on machines designed to prevent that very thing is like a game of football for geeks. It requires skill (is not too easy), but has been and probably can be done (is not too hard). The rules are those of logic and electronics. The goal is clear, and there is feedback along the way as you (carefully arrange to) see evidence of the system running your code further and further along in the boot process.
It can get frustrating if there is a lack of feedback - you can't find a visible bit to twiddle to show the code has gotten to a specific point.
Why?
Why climb Mount Everest?
Because it's there!
The Xbox 360 is there, and thus these people won't rest until it runs Linux.
because game consoles, too, want to be free.
The grass is always greener on the other side of the light cone.
And they want to open something in OpenOffice.
To piss off Microsoft.
Karma: Bad. Calmer, good.
Fair enough. Stupid KDE, black/flux would work fine.
"You won't eat our meat, but you'll glue with our feet.." --Some cow
For £50 I can get a P2-based machine, if not better, on eBay; if I want to spend a lot of money on a 360, it wouldn't be for an expensive mail server...
Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
Enjoy
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/06/30
You missed the whole point of being a geek. Sorry, slashdot is not for you, don't come back.
To cracking the Trusted Computing hardware.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
As other posters have noted, game consoles share the distinctive trait of standardized, special-purpose hardware, on which a general-purpose Linux OS is installed. But even the best game consoles make for pretty poor PCs if you just look at the specs, so it seems to me that this is more of a proof-of-concept and the sheer devilish joy of seeing Tux on an Xbox.
But is it not possible to modify a distro for specifically that set of hardware that comes with, say, the Xbox 360? Would the gain in performance not be equal to that of games software written for that set of hardware?
The grass is always greener on the other side of the light cone.
Hello fellow slashdotters, I've been reading slashdot for several years but this is ourageous.
As the Executive Sales Manager for Microsoft XBox 360 I don't see this as news but a direct
illegal action against the Microsoft corporation. Hacking the XBox hardware which the machine was
not originally intended for will be further looked into by the FBI and CIA as it is considered a
hostile Terrorist action against the United States of America's privatly owned enterprises. We
have the governments full support to fight this Communist plague and any attempt to interfere or
hinder this investigation will result in an immediate hostile response.
I'm talking about the original XBox--and it is capable of more than just being a mail server. As for the 360, by the time it's at all easy to run Linux on it, they hopefully will have come down in price, and would make for a significantly powerful computing platform for its low price.
Sometimes we want people to get karma for making us laugh. And Taco took away karma for Funny mods. Thus, Informative.
Before they try porting Gentoo to it.
I mean seriously ... why not put Linux on the XBox? If there are some hackers out there that get their rocks off porting Linux to everything from new architectures to dead badgers, then more power to them if they want to tackle the X360, too.
And IMO it'd be pretty damn cool to have 1) the power and 2) the form-factor in a general-purpose box.
Who doesn't like free music?
He's a motivational psychologist studying performance and reward, his name is Csikszentmihalyi, and he's Hungarian, not Indian.
microsoft don't care if you run linux on the xbox. they wont loose that much money. (i know that currently they loose a bit on each xbox they sell, but the more they sell, the more they can push manufacturing costs down).
.gov. then they have no competitors.
when 360.0 is cracked, they'll learn how it was done, and make 360.1 more secure. same when people crack 360.1 etc. all the xbox linux code will be open source so they can have a good look at the methods used.
this is all good practice for them so that oneday they'll be able to make a computer that will only run windows and signed code. then they'll claim that anyone not using their secure platform must be a hacker or software/music pirate. then they lobby the
You run linux and not buy any games..
Remember they are gambling on game sales to make a profit on these things.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
What do you get out of running linux on the Xbox?
You get the ability to run applications on the Xbox. For example, run media players with more extensive features and support for a variety of formats.
You get the ability to run applications such as a FTP server on your Xbox. That way it could be a true media hub, where you could transfer TV shows, movies, and other media to your Xbox for viewing on your television (in high def).
And most importantly, you get the ability to play games you download, such as the entire collection of the original Xbox's games.
[I can picture a world without war, without hate. I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it]
I was thinking, the original xbox could play pretty much everything when chipped right? But what about the 360, with this triple core non-x86 processor? I do realize that there are open decoders for many formats, but which ones will we loose support for? I can think of Windows Media Video on the top of my head.
Dvorak on Doomtech
onto lean and special-purpose hardware?
Well, special purpose ok, but lean? After seeing the CPU specifications (3 symmetric cores, each with 2threads and running at 3,2Ghz each with plenty of registers) I thought that's pretty high end hardware. May be it's cripped in some other way that I can't see? It sure would be quite fun running Linux on this box for the power and form factor - all the power to the hackers!
Wait a second, did he even make any points besides that one?
Some of you kiddies don't remember that before there was flash, there were technologies like PROM, EPROM, and EEPROM. It's perfectly possible they have write-once PROM in the CPU, vs. reprogrammable flash memory. In fact, if I were Microsoft I would have insisted on it.
It would be pretty cool if Linux worked on a 360 but please remind me again why people are trying to make it so? Aren't there enough projects crying out for some decent developer input already? Maybe I am just getting old and grumpy but this seems like a terrible waste of time that could be used to great benefit.
I used to have a better sig but it broke.
According to Godwins law, I must now try to hack the x-box.
Sure they sell them at a $125 loss, but it only comes with a 20 gig HDD and the place where it shines (where the $525 was spent) is in grapgics processing. Not to point out the obvious, but a 16 meg graphics card would be fine for what most people use Linux for. If the goal is to hurt MS, I don't think a few hundred (or thousand) people buying a 360 _only_ for running Linux will really do anything more than improve their sales numbers. You will just be out $400 that could have been much better spent elsewhere.
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
I know that was a joke, but the appeal of getting linux on the Xbox for me is to be able to run MythFrontend for all my video needs... which requires QT and tends to be a little clunky on ancient machines. Not that you need 3.2 ghz processors, but hey, the XBox is cheaper than a new machine.
Does it have a triple core CPU capable of running two threads on each core?
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
This is (as far as I know) the very first Trusted Computing platform that we can put our hands on. Very, very interesting. And it is well done (no obvious flaws).
If somebody can break that, we may be safe! That or they may build a more secure one, but we'll be safe for more time anyway.
Rethinking email
And breaking in to something that is 2nd gen built against it, and beating Microsoft.
Someday we'll all be negroes
Yeah, it's a shame that I can't play new games like Quake IV on my Linux box.
If I have children in the house, then what E or E10+ rated games of the same production standards as AAA commercial titles are available for Linux?
If I'm not a fan of first-person shooters, then what games of other genres of the same production standards as AAA commercial titles are available for Linux?
so I highly doubt Microsoft would create huge disruptions in supplies just to stop this behavoir.....
If Sony's cat-and-mouse game with PSP homebrew enthusiasts is any indication of what Microsoft might do, especially given that one of the linked pages has "TPM"...
I believe that's:
1. Get modified Xbox with Linux installed
2. Suspend on a piece of string
3. Spin 360 degrees on piece of string
4. ???
5. Profit!
Cziksentmihalyi is pronounced "CHICK-SENT-ME-HIGH", and although he was the first to academically describe this state, as Cziksentmihalyi acknowledges, it has been known and pursued for much, much longer by yogis and many others.
special-purpose hardware
To quote A Canticle for Leibowitz, "How did that heresy get into the world after all these years?" Anything with a standard CPU inside it is general purpose. The Xbox 360 is a Turing machine...with great graphics and an overheating problem, but that doesn't affect its Turing-completeness. Your Linksys router, your graphing calculator, probably your digital clock, are all general-purpose too, if you can find how to reprogram them. This world has very few special-purpose devices left in it. The point of things being Turing-complete is so that they're not special-purpose.
Remember that anything with a microcontroller can have that chip reprogrammed. The only special-purpose chips left are probably in heavily-embedded systems like the chip inside your optical mouse or something. For most applications it's cheaper to program a general-purpose microchip in software, instead of making your own logic circuits.
There are many reasons, one of which is "because it's there".
That's doubletalk for "you must use MS ______ to view this content".
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
Far be it from me to question this but given that it functions out the box as a Media Center extender
Can the Xbox 360 system stream video from a Mac or from any other machine running an operating system other than Microsoft Windows XP Media Center Edition? Can it stream media encoded in more open (even if not Free) codecs, or is it limited to WMV and WMA?
It would be pretty cool if Linux worked on a 360 but please remind me again why people are trying to make it so? Aren't there enough projects crying out for some decent developer input already? Maybe I am just getting old and grumpy but this seems like a terrible waste of time that could be used to great benefit.
I consider this the logical equivalent of the question, "Couldn't they be working on a cure for cancer instead?" I cannot abide this sort of arrogant stupidity.
1) All programmers/scientists/etc. are not equivalent. Life is not some computer strategy game. You can't just wave your mouse around, pull a person off one project, put them on another, and expect the same level of productivity. Maybe the Xbox 360 project will attract people with good hardware hacking skills that aren't really applicable on anything you care about.
2) What interests you may or may not interest people of technical aptitude. Sure, a cure for cancer would be really great, but not everyone is interested in whatever field of research will finally result in it. Some people might be more interested in entomology than oncology, and some people might be more interested in getting a cheap, powerful Linux home entertainment computer than whatever makes you happy. Your desires are not everyone else's desires.
3) What doesn't interest you isn't necessarily useless. An Xbox is a very powerful multi-processor system perfect for hooking up to a home entertainment system and well suited for light distributed processing tasks. It's also fantastically cheap for what it's capable of. There are numerous potential uses for it.
4) Not everything has to be useful to be worth doing. Surprise, surprise -- the people working on this might be doing it for fun! Even if it didn't have a lot of utility, that doesn't mean it isn't worth doing if it brings someone enjoyment to do it.
In short, stuff it. You're not the dictator of the world, so quit discouraging people from pursuing interests that you don't share.
</frothing at the mouth>
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
You should be certain to specify that these CPUs don't execute OoO
Only because they haven't been cracked yet. Should the box be cracked, you'll see a port of Linux, and then you'll have your OpenOffice.org suite.
You mean the same way they look at how exploits are done and use that information to create a 100% virus/spyware/adware-free OS?
There are more backward compatibility issues in making a virus-free Windows operating system than in making a virus-free game console.
I and many others apparently think [volunteer contribution to distributed computing projects is] worth the power; if you don't, that's your business, nobody makes you leave your system on.
I guess the thinking is that not enough people will likely 1. know about it and 2. think it's worth the power to make the porting effort worthwhile.
There is no absolutely unhackable security model. Even if there is absolutely no bugs in XBOXs software (which I find highly unlikely - this is Microsoft we're talking here), you can always modify the hardware until the code you want to pass passes. Simply replace every single part if nothing else helps.
The real questions are: is there a hack that requires so little effort from the part of the user that it is worth the trouble, and if so, how long until it is discovered ?
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Because not all of us share the same tastes as you and we actually find it funny?
The real questions are: is there a hack that requires so little effort from the part of the user that it is worth the trouble, and if so, how long until it is discovered ?
There probably is, but if the state of the original Xbox is any indication, it'll be a Long Time (TM) before it's found. To the best of my knowledge there is still no crack for the Xbox that doesn't involve hardware modification. Once you get into hardware probably very few people will attempt it. Too risky.
I understand that it happens. I just don't understand *why* it happens. Let's look at the linked cartoon. Oh man that's a hoot! A joke about geeks not having sex! How *do* they come up with it? Geniuses, I tell ya.
Q: Have you guys modded the Xbox360 yet?
A: No, not yet.
That doesn't really make any sense. More likely: heat, power consumption, shock resistance, noise, and physical size. Especially heat/power/size, which are critical for a "console" game; just look at the problems with the overheating power adapters...
Please help metamoderate.
Softmodding involves a buffer overflow exploit using modified savegames for certain games, and involves no hardware modification.
I wear the ring.
Everyone expects that Microsoft would want to shut such a site down. Believe it or not, if the Trusted Computing Machine paradigm is to really take hold, Microsoft is going to have to wait it out. Lots of companies have worked on other tamper-proof technology. If this platform can withstand a very large portion of that attack, then they will have a reputation to be proud of - from a security perspective.
Bruce Schneier reminds us of several attributes in his book Secrets and Lies.
For the record, I have no interest in playing on a 360, much less compromizing one, but if Microsoft can apply the above principles, then they will have a reputation and platform other non-gaming industries can embrace. Even Sony couldn't buy that with money. I do, however, have my doubts that Microsoft has focused on security robustness because their first and formost motto should be "It's all about the gaming experience." Fail that and the thing dies anyway.
Free60? That's pretty cool. What are the other consoles going to get for a name? "Open Source Revolution", uh.. "PS3 Linux"?
I don't see why there isn't a lot more enthusiasm behind this project, only 100 posts so far, and hald of them saying why hacking the X-box 360 isn't that important. I thought this site is for nerds, the type of people who would love to get there hands dirty with this type of stuff. How can there be so much exitment about the x-boxs release, not as much exitment about greatly expanding what you can do with your X-box. First off, this allows gamers a much, much larger variety of games... I might end up playing Frespace to this thing. Anything you would be able to do with a PC you could do with an X-box 360 if linux is ported to it. I intend for my next PC to be an X-box 360, microsoft gets the hardware at a reduced cost, and that reduced cost is not only carried over onto you, but is improved upon, microsoft loses $130 for each xbox sold. This is no minimalistic PC, it's much better than my current one. When the security is cracked for linux, it won't be long until mac os X or any of the BSDs are ported to. Plus, it only runs $300 for a base unit. Alright anough dealing with these non-nerds, why aren't you linux experts hacking away at this thing? Think of the boon in linux developers when all these computer users get a taste of linux, because it will so vastly improves there console. Whos' going to care about the X-box when the PS3 comes? The faster it is ported, the more people who will be exposed to Linux, and end up developing it and making it better. Plus, the sooner I get my PC. How can you turn down this challenge? I wish they would have another one of those contests, were that guy got $100,000 for getting linux on the first x-box without a hardware change.
Those that have a system with the HD and intend to keep it standing vertically, may want to think twice about that.
It was very easy for me to kill a devkit as it fell laterally while the console was on.
I can't imagine the retail system being less sensitive to that, as it's only normal for an HD to get damaged that way.
The problem is that the thing is meant to stand up, but it's light and it doesn't have a wide base.
Watch out.
"La presi e te la pagai (480.000 Lire)"
as the fear of any other console vendor is "homemade" software. this would mean opening the market to everyone and not only to licensed publishers.
i'm a bit sad of this, cause coding for consoles is fun. i did some gba coding, and it is really cool to see your demos appear on the actual hardware.
On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
I can no longer sit back and allow...Communist infiltration...Communist indoctrination...Communist subversion...and the international Communist conspiracy...to sap and impurify...all...of our precious bodily fluids
Once they make uncrackable hardware, no one will buy it! I see only one reason to buy x360, to hack it, hehe. Really, if the next gen M$ stuff comes out fully with uncrackable DRM, no one will use it. DRM isn't good for M$, it is good for RIAA, M$ just employs it because it 'must'.
Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
Other systems may use one-time-programmable chips, and most of these have various kinds of "security bits" that effectively slams the door on the possibility of reading the existing program and changing it. Typically something done in order to retain trade secrets.
Now, there are also field-programmable units, whether memories or erasable and re-writeable controller, with some kind of EEPROM memory in them. Even if they can be erased and re-programmed, these still tend to have some kind of security mechanism for the benefit of those wanting to keep their trade secrets.
I do expect that Microsoft has not made it easy to reprogram or even inspect the contents of these memory areas that hold the key for the unit. And it's not like there'd be a separate 24C01 memory chip with an I2C-bus interface holding the secret key, we can expect that there are some nonvolatile bytes of memory safely tucked away inside the chip.
Very likely, this memory is designed as externally write-only-once, so that once the key is written it can never be either read or rewritten. This resembles the region coding change limitation on DVD-drives, where the region code may be changed N times and it eventually sticks at the last one. Reduce N to 1 here, don't implement any way of externally reading the value, and there it is.
That does not preclude the possibility of overall testing of the external response to stimuli and deducing the internal secrets; but it does make this job quite a bit harder. After all, the device must eventually be able to run code from an external data source, as opposed to embedded controllers that have a fixed program that hardly ever changes.
SIGBUS @ NO-07.308
DRM is really good for Microsoft if the only 'trusted' OS is Windows. You think the world's largest software company would do anything but say fuck off to the entertainment cartels if there wasn't anything in it for them?
Does a Christian soccer team even need a goalkeeper?
I hope this will be possible, that is, to mod the Xbox.
I want a small media console for my apartment without hooking up a computer to a TV. I would be nice to store MP3s and such on it as well. And play a few games on it.
If not I hope Nintendo or the PS3 provide this sort of think natively. If the reasoning behind all the TPM measures is in part to prevent piracy, IMO, Nintendo got it right with the Gamecube: A small format disc (though non-standard) which spins backward with the data written in an inverse way. Nobody's been able to pirate a game and play it on the GC to date. If only it would play DVD size discs it would be great.
content providers will require you to have MS hardware and your only option will be to accept that or give up.
But you're forgetting one thing. We don't need content providers. They need us. They can't afford to have us "give up." Content providers have to weigh their greed and desire for control with the reality that consumers will ultimately only spend a fraction of their income on "content." If they overplay their hand and attempt to overburden us with crap, they are risking the backlash of apathy. Divx? DAT?? ATRAC??? DVD Audio????
There are two kinds of people: 1) those who start arrays with one and 1) those who start them with zero.
if so this proves the theory that the xbox line of gaming consoles are being used as a drm test bed.
sort to like the following.
1. release gameing console that is made from normal off the shelf pc parts but with some drm that prevents it to be used as such.
2. wait for and then watch groups who try to hack the drm to be able to use said console as a normal pc.
3.take the information gained from leting them do this into account as you make the next version of the console then go to step one, unless of course no one is able to hack the drm in which case push to have it added to normal pc hardware.
Uhhh... why is that vital? I take a Xbox360 any day when compared to Open Source based solution that I have to install and maintain my self. And what about digital tv providers and like? I am pretty sure they are not going to sit back and watch MS take over their business. Have you also even considered the fact that maybe Xbox360 is just a very good product and people will not care about alternatives?
In short, stuff it. You're not the dictator of the world, so quit discouraging people from pursuing interests that you don't share.
In shorter, stuff it. You're not the dictator of the world, so quit discouraging people from discouraging people from pursuing interests that they don't share.
In case you didnt know free60 is Australian pronunciation of for 360. Im getting kinda fristy here.
really bored? My blog
I don't understand all this "port Linux to a console" stuff. Isn't it just feeding Microsoft and proprietary devices to add features to their hardware? Why encourage sales of their products?
... and then they built the supercollider.
I doubt it. IANAL - but they do not use the words "xbox" in their name, which means that they are going against the phrase "360". Numbers cannot be trademarked - though others have tried. Think intel and 486. That's why they changed the name of their next generation CPU to a word which was "pentium". They had a naming contest within the company with nice prizes and came up with something usable from one of the employees.
Free60 is very clever. Kudos to them.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
You see.. they're taking a $129 loss on every x360 sold.. the reason is that they KNOW we're going to put Linux on it.. and the moment we do you KNOW some well meaning twit will port Gentoo to it.
Now if these buggers over heat and die regularly what do you think GENTOO is going to do to it with all that compiling?!?!
It's going to set fire to houses and KILL PEOPLE!!
Then MS can sit back and let the marketing dogs of war loose, and Linux will be branded as the child killing OS for ever and a day.
so.. which of you genius Judas will be nailing Tux to a dead tree first??
"Consider how lucky you are that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far
You must be new here! ;-)
Res publica non dominetur
Well, a theoretical dictator of the world not have to "discourage" people. He'd just send in the shock troops and put an end to whatever the rablle was doing. :)
And the OP's attitude wasn't *that* horrible. Things should have their value questioned at all times. The lack of questioning things leads to most of the messes we have in the world today. Watch a politician give an interview thse days. I don't think "follow up question" is even in the cirriculum of journalism schools these days.
And, yes, "doing it for fun" is a perfectly valid answer, but there's no need to Bakersfield chimp on the OP. ;-)
even when the microsoft solution will allow them to say charge you per veiw just for the ability to watch dvds on the system, charge you per month on top of the per month bill for the isp just for the privialge to play online, charge you for updates and bug fixs for their own products problems. i can go on.
I bet there is some group within M$ whose job has been specifically to prevent Linux from running on the xbox 360. They better cross their fingers
You seem to think that running Linux on the XBox is some sort of value proposition for geeks. I think you misunderstand it.
As a close parallel, I would suggest reading http://www.gamers.org/~quinet/lilo/ for a close parallel.
In essence, why bother? Because the XBox was not supposed to run Linux. It is the thrill and challenge, not the idea of a cheap web server...
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
What about emacs? Are we out of emacs jokes? I could have sworn there was supposed to be an emacs joke here.
Tired of legitimate data sources? Try UNCYCLOPEDIA
Can linux take advantage of the extra cores and awsome graphics (for vector processing of course)? Or would linux jsut simply access the video if it were a wimp and ignore the other processors.
"You will do foolish things, but do them with enthusiasm." - S. G. Colette
Martin Fink tells it like it is:
The question is not why you should put Linux on the XBox, but why not?
Did you get that thing I sent ya?
That's at the core of "Trusted Computing". It can, and will, control access to hardware as well as to the most basic operating system functions such as using a boot loader or kernel. Microsoft plans to provide and manage the keys for almost everything, much the way Verisign manages most SSL keys today either directly or through authorized proxies.
I remember when people used to say stuff like "They want to make an XBox version of Vista"
Emacs Performance Jokes died somewhere around the time when PCs got more than 8 megs of RAM and "Eight Megabytes And Continuously Swapping" just wasn't true anymore.
Linux is not Windows
Parent poster implies a very important point. No security model needs to be perfect. It just needs to be good enough that it isn't worth screwing up whatever the security model is there to protect.
If it takes 50 solder points and a week of effort, 99.9% of your users won't modify their consoles and your software sales won't be negatively impacted. If it takes a complete code re-write then finding a hash collision to get a modified console online, nobody will do it. Heck, Nintendo found that adding 2 little plastic tabs to the SNES was sufficient to greatly reduce the scope of the import market.
Security is about dissuading people from doing things, not preventing them.
The ______ Agenda
One box to do it all...
And in the darkness bind it!
One good turn - gets all the covers.
Three boxes for the gamer-kings under Live
Seven for the finance lords in their halls of stone
Nine boxes for the mortal render farms doomed to die
One Server for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
One XBox to rule them all, one XBox to find them
One XBox to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them
In the land of Redmond, where the shadows lie
For security, the MD5 hash of this message and sig is 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.
As long as these things play games online the possibility exists of a buffer overflow there as well.
I know games programmers, and while many are competent, they rarely care/have time to audit their code for security bugs.
I rarely criticize things I don't care about.
Because almost everyone else will profit from it.
But enough already!
Look, it's reall simple... and I'm going to spell it out for you. Ready?
Microsoft makes a product (Windows) that, in most of its incarnations, basically blows. We all know that. Every day, I promote Linux to as many of my clients / customers as I can. I sell new and refurb boxes with (k)Ubuntu installed. I build low-mid range servers running Gentoo and occasionally a *BSD. I install Linux on everything I can... because I'm a geek.
Now, all that being said, the reason I get paid to install Linux on everything is because Microsoft continues to make a product (Windows) that, in most of its incarnations, basically blows.
However, they also make some other products, and some of them are actually pretty nice: mice, keyboards, and... gaming consoles. So, the question is: Since we hate Windows... we have to hate the Xbox (or mice, or keyboards, etc...)? If the answer is yes, then what about the PSy? Who do we hate more this week? Micro$oft or $ony?
Because... $ony installs rootkits on our computers... remember?
But we game (we're hanging in games.slashdot.org... right?)
So, which side do we choose? Because let's face it... you hate Microsoft and want to put them out of business (No more Xboxes, no more Windows... which means no more desktop games), and you hate Sony and don't want their rootkit installing shite, and if all that happens, then there'll only be Nintendo left and you'll hate them because they're monopolizing the gaming market.
So, here's my thing... You really hate Microsoft? Hate the part that matters and do something about it! Hate the OS, because it's insecure, because it's buggy, because it stamps out competition, innovation and growth. But do more than hate it... actively participate in offering a choice. Volunteer a little time and energy and package old PII's and PIII's w/ a light Linux and offer to assist an NPO in acclimating to it. Put your burner to good use and start burning Live/Install distros and passing them out to anyone even remotely interested. Simply put... get involved in a real way. Put the $400 you were going to spend on a 360 (to SHUT M$ DOWN, DUDE!) and buy a burning system and get to work!
But enough with this kind of psuedo-guerilla warfare talk. It's just a bit annoying. Because for every hundred of you that say something like... "Yeah, I'll install Linux on my Xbox 'cause it costs M$ money", one of us have actually done it... because we really are geeks. (And, because in a pinch, an Xbox running Linux makes a damn quick and easy backup server =D ).
And just to answer the question... yes, I do practice what I preach. My Stellar2 burns an everage of 150-200 discs a month (ranging from Live distros -- usually knoppix or Ubuntu, install discs and other OSS projects like OpenCD). And, if you'll look below, my sig is the truth... My Microsoft Partner rep does not like me... at all. Why? Because every month on the phone I ask her this question: What am I doing to help "win the war"? I'm putting the best OS I can into the hands of my clients. What are you guys doing to make that OS Windows?
Now, after a long and heated rant... I'll get back on topic with the actuall article and say this... Linux on a 360? Souns interesting... as soon as its possible, I'll try it. It'll be even nicer than Linux on the Xbox for one reason I can think of (outside of muscle & memory, of course): We can hook it up to a monitor this time!!!
Get to work, Bunny! I'm waiting to follow in your mighty big footsteps!
#SickNotWeak
If you have to mod the processor itself to get it done, it's unhackable. This is what the TCPA/Palladium/NGSCB/whatever effort is trying to get to eventually as well. Not everyone has the ability to manufacture fresh CPUs, especially of a specific design, and the silicon can't be changed afterwards.
.. a once in a lifetime chance to build and bear witness to a Linux rig that spontaneously reboots every 20mins.
excellentcantwait.
Once you get into hardware probably very few people will attempt it. Too risky.
I don't know what circles you travel in, but I don't know *anyone* who owns an Xbox that is not modded, and that is out of about 20 to 30 Xbox owners.
The benefits of modding (namely, XBMC and the ability to play backups) are just too great to *not* do it.
It will be the same for the 360 - a hardware mod chip will be out in a matter of weeks, and everyone and their dog will have one.
Yeah, and 'Emacs Makes A Computer Slow' and 'Eventually Munches All Computer Storage' aren't what they used to be either.
But see http://www.ahajokes.com/com027.html for more emacs jokes.
Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.
bbs --> newsgroups --> IRC --> the internet
somewhere in there are mailing lists
I'm not sure why you (an AC) is badmouthing IRC, but lots of serious conversation happens in various 'official' channels. Not everyone has left IRC.
A lot of exploits for the original Xbox were worked on in IRC channels... just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it ain't happening.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
I'm not sure why that particular comic is titled "Also Known As Blackmail"
At first I saw it in the title bar and thought it was a dig at Jack Thompson, now I'm just confused.
Are they trying to say that sex with geeks is a form of blackmail?
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Thank you for bringing this up, friend. It seems you do not understand the basis for Godwin's Law which means that because you tried to demonize your opposition by making an irrational comparison to the horrible montrosities that the nazis did, you lose your side of the argument. I am no nazi, and am offended that you would consider me to be. My father's Jewish and it is horrible that you should compliment Hitler by saying that he is as great of a person as I am(I am also very modest). I hope scum like you rot in hell.
Sorry nazis piss me off, I know your not a nazi, and I am nothing like hitler, but thinking about it makes me angry. Please don't try to use such a horrible thing like that to make a stupid agrument. The two have nothing to do with each other. The nazis were bad because they were fasists and caused wide spread suffering, which has less than nothing to do with porting linux to the x-box 360.
Don't troll with unintelligent comments, it's not worth it.
Maybe you should take your own advice next time, eh?
I find it highly disturbing that people are being labeled as trolls and flamebait because they have an unpopular opinion. By simply asking "why put Linux on an X-Box" a person is not being a troll! I find the idea of putting Linux on an X-Box interesting, but I can see why people wouldn't.
So, every Xbox sold is an incentive for a developer to pay Microsoft and promote Microsoft's platform.
... and then they built the supercollider.
It is bleeding to death after the beating you gave him....
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
After that, rename your Xbox to "Ship of Theseus".
First thing I thought when I saw the title,
"What a 3 year old would call the 360". As in, the "Micwosoft Free 60"
Want to find other gamers to play board and role playing game
This is a dry run where their extreme measures will not be as controversial.
What they really want is Linux-free PC's. Namely they want to ensure that the cheap, consumer level hardware which runs Windows will be---by crypto-in-hardware---unable to run Linux.
And hardware which runs Linux, or any other operating system which is not Microsoft approved, will not run Windows.
Entirely new motherboards and processors would have to be designed for Linux. This will raise costs dramatically. No doubt that implementing such Windows-able hardware will require licensing software (BIOS) and patents from Microsoft, and it just happens that those hardware companies which are "friendly" and "decide on their own" to go Microsoft-only get a very large discount---one which makes or breaks the profit margins in such fierce competition as CPUs and motherboards.
Microsoft is attempting to do what's never been done before: make an entirely proprietary hardware architecture where everybody else has to put in the capital investment and take big financial risks and face competition, while they skim off huge profits.
Do you think the antitrust settlement will prevent this?
NO! Microsoft very cleverly negotiated enormous loopholes---anything dealing with "security" they have a free hand.
All of this will be couched in terms of security.
This way they can negate two of Linux's advantages at once: lower price (as Linux HW will be as expensive as Mac HW), and security (Only Windows works on "highly secure PC's!!!!").
The copyright and patent scare didn't work to hurt Linux. Now they go for the final solution.
Google is the only thing that Microsoft will, at present, be unable to destroy.
Nothing gallons of Fluorinert and Liquid Nitrogen wouldn't fix..
To be serious: I always thought that cooling issues (like the power supply) were just a result of poor conversion efficiency.
If you run them all off a central power supply, I imagine a significant portion of your cooling issues would dissappear.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
We all have access to the information in the patent whether we're in the Linux camp or not. That's what they're for: to make inventions public but still give the inventor a limited-time monopoly on use of the idea.
Unfortunately, access to the hypervisor patent doesn't make cracking hypervisor any easier, just like access to the RSA patent doesn't make cracking an RSA key any easier.
The patent will tell you which things the hypervisor keeps secret from child processes but it won't tell you what those secrets are.
To the best of my knowledge there is still no crack for the Xbox that doesn't involve hardware modification.
Please improve your pitiful knowledge.
http://www.xbox-linux.org/>
Softmodding (modding with no hardware modification) is possible based on a few different methods. There are at least three games for which a savegame buffer overflow exploit is known. You can download a malicious savegame, load it from within the game, and linux boots. From there you can ftp anything you like to your hard drive. (This is the method I chose.) No hardware modification is required. Getting the savegame available to the XBOX can bit tricky. You can either buy an xbox memory card with one installed, or use a standard USB memory drive connected to the controller port -- the controller ports are standard USB with a different connector, but commercial USB adapters are available from real companies (i.e., companies with interests other than assisting you in softmodding).
Among the popular "permanent" softmods you can install onto the harddrive are font mods (buffer overflow in the font file that loads with the splash screen) and sound mods (buffer overflow in the sound processing code, for playing ripped tracks - the original MS software includes a CD ripper for inserting your own soundtracks into games that support it). (I chose the font mod).
Now that you have a mod on your hard drive, you can run unsigned code, including linux itself, alternate dashboards, or (my favorites) Xbox Media Center (not to be confused with the Media Center package Microsoft sells for Xbox) or Xbox-MAME.
A totally different way to go involves opening the XBOX, connecting its hard drive to a PC, loading linux on it, and putting it back in the XBOX. That could be considered "hardware modification" but it requires nothing more than guts and a few screwdrivers.
So what's the deal here? Using Linux string to fix the 360?
Engineering is the art of compromise.
After some analysis, I've already discovered what appears to be a critical vulnerability already in the 360's chain of trust.
The approach will not be easy. You are required to maneuver straight down this trench and skim the surface to this point. The target area is only two meters wide. It's a small thermal exhaust port, right below the main port. The shaft leads directly to the reactor system. A precise hit will start a chain reaction which should destroy the station.
To the best of my knowledge there is still no crack for the Xbox that doesn't involve hardware modification.
Done and done.
It involves getting in through a savegame. I had this done to my XBox; it has something to do with FTPing in and replacing boot files.
Hopefully the new system gets cracked quickly; an XBox with XBox Media Center is very useful!
The first chipless linux boot was by Habibi in March 2003, announced April 1 IIRC.0 403019435.htm
http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2003Mar/gee2003
And xboxes can be connected to VGA.
http://www.google.com/search?q=xbox+vga
I consider this the logical equivalent of the question, "Couldn't they be working on a cure for cancer instead?"
:)
Funny. Poeple are avoiding IT and going into biotech and other fields.
So I'd say, they are diong just that, going to work on cancer and other htings not quite so outsorceable
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
To the best of my knowledge there is still no crack for the Xbox that doesn't involve hardware modification.
There's a simple, Free exploit that uses a buffer overflow in MechAssault to run unsigned code under the security restrictions of the game itself; one of the things it can do is write files to disk. Appropriate files can replace or modify the Dashboard, allowing unsigned code to run with no restrictions and act as an operating system. Such code exists Freely for older Xboxen; for newer ones, there is technically illegal code with the same effect.
("Technically illegal" because it was built with an unlicensed copy of the Xbox developer's kit.)
SourceForge downloads page - get "MechInstaller", dd that to a drive that you can hook up to your Xbox, and load one of its saved games with an original (not "Platinum Hits") version of MechAssault 1. See xbox-linux.org.
I would think that running linux on it would be the first step towards this, To write their own 'game' someone needs to either be able to bypass the copyprotection and know enough about the hardware to program an efficient node, Or they need to be able to sign code and still know enough about the hardware, Since it's unlikely MS will be letting homebrew coders sign code, the only option is to get familiar with xbox hardware and copy protection, and the fastest way I can see to do that is to port Linux to it.
The GP2X from some korean company will _officially_ ship with a Linux-SDK based on SDL lib, so anyone can start coding games. They go the other way in contrast to any other console vendor out there.
Although the GP2X is not as powerful as the PSP, I consider buying one, 'cause it'll be a great start into console game development.
Regards,
Dennis B. Schramm
Sigs suck!
As a vim user, I say Emacs stands for Esc Meta Alt Control Shift.
Stupidity is an equal opportunity striker.
Fellow slashdotter Bill Dog
Lets assume you're right (and I have no reason to think otherwise), isn't this massive overkill?
I realize they want to prevent piracy, and that's something that should take seriously. But at a certain point, I'm asking why this much trouble? Modding a console is so outside the mainstream that the amount of piracy they're preventing has to be really small.
Is this corporate machismo? Is this MS's platform to prove the viability of the TPC? Or is there more to this than meets the eye? I'm confused at the level of effort here.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
Assuming that they would have to reverse engineer the security mechanisms in the Xbox 360, is it legal for them to do what they are doing?
It's been 7.5 hours already. I guess this really proves editors don't read their own site.
As another poster has said, Microsoft are bound by the restrictions on trademarking numbers, just as Intel are. On the other hand, MS are notorious for making legal threats with no factual legal basis against people who they believe can be intimidated into acquiescence, so I dare say they will try something underhanded if the Free60 project is successful in acheiving their goals of getting an open platform environment working on the Xbox 360.
Blizzard vs Freecraft is an utterly irrelevant example. Freecraft was independantly developed, and did not incorporate any Blizzard code or artwork, so was legally 100% pure. Nor was it infringing on a trademark basis, Blizzard have no hope in hell of claiming ownership over the word 'craft' and any or all permutations that it might morph into. That Blizzard won this case is testiment to the corruptability of courts and the legal process, and the criminality of Blizzard themselves. This decision was completely without precedent, and we have never seen the likes since that I'm aware of. Touch wood..
'Free' and 'Open' when used in the context that you are complaining about describes products that are both Free and/or Open. Is it so unreasonable or offensive that a product name tries to impart some indication of its nature, it being a libre piece of software?
Given the power supply problem we better make sure this has a Journal File System.
Even if you got around the intentional security measures, would Linux even run on a machine with an number of processors not 2^n? If so, I've never heard of it before...
1, 2, 4, 8, even 32 processors, sure. The only non power-of-two systems I've heard of were clusters, which typically have a different task-distribution model.
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
Don't they pay money up-front for development kits and licensing? Also, the more developers are attracted by Xbox sales, the more titles will be released - so enticing more people to buy games and make the platform a success.
I don't think very many people will buy and Xbox and NEVER buy a single game. the few hardcore Linux freaks who do so, are not going to make any significant impact. If one wants to support Linux - that $400 would be much better donated to the EFF, or even used to help pay for an Open Source programmer's bills, or donated to some Linux project. It simply does not make sense to waste that much money on Microsoft's crap - when you could be using the money directly to do good.
Personally, I suspect this "But Microsoft makes a loss, buy ten!" attitude is merely an excuse used by Linux people to justify buying an Xbox while still claiming moral purity. The likelihood of them never loading an Xbox game into the unit is very slim.
... and then they built the supercollider.
What?! The world is safe from you.
Laws are for people with no friends.
*inserts foot into mouth*
Sorry 'bout that
Aside from not being able to play hacked games, I have a feeling Sony will allow anything to be run on the linux system. What restrictions there will be, I don't know. However, this greatly reduces the legal uses of illegal hacks, and would make prosecution of modders and mod sites much easier, along with reducing the number of coders on the job. Might reduce the number of linux hackers who would bother figuring out how to mod it.
I have freaks! I did something right...
While that was very passionate, being able to hack the 360 to get Linux on it won't change anything. 99.9% of the people interested in streaming content don't care what they watch it on. They will buy the box that gives them what they want with the minimum amount of effort. It's why they buy Windows in the first place.
I'm sure that the whole project will be fun for the people who want to invest the time, but in the long run it will only help Microsoft learn how to lock down the hardware better. The time would be better spent building a serious, Linux-based gaming platform if you wanted the market penetration.
No new Slashdot main stories for 9 hours and counting...
Games programming isn't my thing I'm afraid. For better or worse, I deal with stuff that has to be secure on a network...
I rarely criticize things I don't care about.
I did it! I found all the security stuff difficult, so I replaced the hardware with my Pentium D desktop. Now, the XBox 360 will boot Suse, BSD, Windows XP, and even BeOS with little or no configuration. Then I decided that hacking the Xbox 360 alone was too easy, so I decided to write an XBox 360 emulator for my new hacked XBox 360. This was easily accomplished by subsituting the original scrapped hardware for the new hacked version. Spread the news.
I just heard some sad news on IRC - Slashdot Editor CmdrTaco was found dead in front of his computer this afternoon. There weren't any more details. I'm sure everyone in the Slashdot community will miss him - even if you didn't enjoy his work, there's no denying his contributions to geek culture. Truly a Slashdot icon, and his picture will be turned into one soon.
Many Bothans died to bring you this information.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
Xbox 360 doesn't have built-in wireless. It is optional, USB 2.0-based and not particularly cost-effective. Might be better to use a 3rd party interface.
Also, it has 10/100 wired ethernet support that you didn't mention.
The rest is right on.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Wow, the 360 must use some sort of transfinite spatail interface just to have a 2 meter wide thermal port.
That and shouldn't that be
That's no moon, that's an XboX.
--- As to make my comment seem, by comparison, more intelegent... doodie doodie doodie poop poop poop!
going through slashdot withdrawl symptoms...!!!
faaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrkkkkkkkkkkkk!!!!!!
It's true no man is an island, but if you take a bunch of dead guys and tie 'em together, they make a good raft.
Uh, the entire point of Xbox Live Arcade is to allow indie games to be played on the Xbox 360. I don't know how they expect people to write these, perhaps they plan to just sell dev kits for cheap, but it's not like Microsoft is dead-set against indie games right now.
Comment of the year
"Simply replace every single part if nothing else helps." - if you had to replace every single part, then it wouldn't be hacking the same piece of hardware!
"He who throws mud, loses ground." - proverb
No the Australian name would be Fee60.
We don't pronouce our R's very well.
"Call us when the New age is old enough to drink" Beck
But how competent do you have to be to make sure the program stops receiving data when the buffer is full? Why does the buffer's data structure even allow this?
Well, they _are_ losing money on the initial sale.
Just the specs of the xbox 360 seem great. Good luck finding a computer with 3 x 3.2 GHZ processors at Best Buy. The ATI graphics card is good enough to play all the latest games. Half a gig of ram. The power supply apparently sucks but that can be replaced, and probably will be fixed on the next batch.
I would love to have a small computer with these specs and at a similar price. No wonder people want to hack it.
That is impossible! Even for a computer!
As long as thier are grad students, linux will be ported to anything that can processes assembly instructions.
What game are you talking about ?
Do you think it should be illegal for me to run software that I wrote on hardware that I purchased for $400 ?
Do you think Microsoft should have the exclusive right to sell programs that run on Windows ?
Of course Microsoft is free to try and lock their market. It's not worse than Lexmark almost giving printers away and then making it illegal (DMCA-wise) for you to refill your overpriced ink cartridges.
Oh well, I can't even believe I'm replying to an anonymous {RIA|MPA|BS}A drone.
Look, I think getting Linux running on some random platform is interesting, and the Xbox 360 may actually have a fair amount of horsepower. But aren't there better things for people to be spending their time and money on that would contribute more to the future of open source? So, instead of hacking the Xbox, how about developing hardware that's open by design?
If people took the money they're going to spend on reverse engineering the Xbox and spent it instead on open hardware development, we'd already have open GPU's, sound cards, motherboards, you name it.
At the same time, open source is borne out of everyone doing whatever they find to be most fascinating, and it's that freedom that has resulted in many people developing open source software that is useful to everyone, whether intentionally or by accident.
Also, an ogre guards the DMA access.
You'd have to epoxy the whole damn board then. There's heaps of places you can connect to the bios and cpu, not just the pins themselves.
But how competent do you have to be to make sure the program stops receiving data when the buffer is full?
It's a matter of speed and simplicity, not necessarily competency. A lot of buffer overflows involve the mismanagement of strings. In a computer's memory, they're generally represented as a series of bytes (number of bytes per character depends on whether you use ASCII/Unicode/some other "wide" format). The string/series of characters ends with a special NULL character (0). The simplest, fastest code, and hence the code used in time-sensitive games, is to blindly copy bytes until a NULL is found.
So, if you have a 128-byte buffer, and you feed it a 129-byte string, the last byte will overwrite some code in memory. I believe this is why some builds of Linux don't allow the same parts of memory to contain both code and data - if your data buffer overflows into code, you can overwrite normally secure code with your own. If memory contains only data, the worst you've done is corrupt otehr data, not the program itself.
It's easy enough to check for buffer overruns. It's not a matter of competency - writing Halo 2 and Perfect Dark require a high degree of competency, for example - but a matter of speed. If you can save a few processor in memory optimization (even at the expense of a security risk) you just made the game run that many frames per second faster.
DATABASE WOW WOW
You can use save game exploits and cause a buffer overflow to execute any code you want. This is how I put a whole new dashboard on my XBox without ever opening up the box. Furthermore, I could rip any DVD or game straight to my harddrive and no longer need the physical disc. Of course to do this requires and older copy of 007 or Mech Assault, a PC with an FTP client, and a network with both the PC and the XBox on it. Time to execute: roughly 5 minutes.
-illumina+us "I put on my robe and wizard hat..."
I never could find the right version of Mechassault.
It's unfortunate that there's no *straightforward* way to boot for instance Linux on an unmodified Xbox. Surprising that nobody has simply made a boot loader that does whatever the Mechassault game does, but without the requirement of the special, long-discontinued game.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
"But how competent do you have to be to make sure the program stops receiving data when the buffer is full?"
It may be difficult to grasp intuitively, but it's extremely easy to do by accident in languages like C++ (by far the most common for games programming). In fact, you will most likely be vulnerable if you don't go out of your way to prevent it.
For example, if the program expects something to be a certain size, it will often only provide enough memory for the expected size an never confirm that it actually is of that size. This happens a lot.
Other security problems can occur when a program takes things for granted, like that a number will be within a given range because a number outside of the range can't occur in normal conditions. For example, there was a security problem where IE didn't make sure one of the values in an image's header wasn't negative, and this allowed a malicious image to execute arbitrary code. It's common for games to make such assumptions.
"Why does the buffer's data structure even allow this?"
Buffers are typically on the stack, and the stack contains information such as return addresses for functions. Putting them elsewhere involves allocating your own memory which is more work, leads to other sorts of bugs, and incurs a performance hit. This is a weakness which other languages address, but they also suffer from disadvantages (mostly performance) that make them unappealing for games.
Preventing these issues is hard because basically you have to spend a lot of time making sure everything is within certain limits, and working out what those limits are. Even small slipups can result in security problems, so you have to be careful.
I rarely criticize things I don't care about.
Someone tell me, why are we talking about Microsoft again and again and again and again and again and again...???
Preserve old classics: copy your collection onto all hard drives.
Whenever I want to give karma for funny posts, I use Underrated --it's not used that often, and it's almost true...
I speak England very best
Now most importantly, If you find some terribly obvious secret exploit inside your version 1.1 xbox, (say you see a lightswitch inside with a 'Microsoft Xbox' / 'Linux Media Center', setting. Please, keep your mouth shut for a few generations of the console so more than a small fraction of the people can use it before its fixed!
Web Developers: Celebrate to our roots! Animated Gifs and Tiled Backgrounds, dont let our history die!
They're not much bigger than two meters.
Holy shit! That's smaller than the original X-box controller!
We would love to tell you as soon as our pre-orders come through. I'll write that down as the first thing microsoft shoulda done differently. Oh wait, this strategy keeps the 360 out of my hands, thus preventing me from hacking it! Genius!
---- Liquid was a patriot ----
Wow, the 360 must use some sort of transfinite spatail interface just to have a 2 meter wide thermal port.
No kidding! Everybody knows the 2 meter wide thermal port was only on the original Xbox.
First, let me say that I was not trolling, and I surprised at how many people saw it that way.
:). But what was running the show? A sub-4MHz 16-bit variation of the venerable 6502. And why did Nintendo do that? Because you can't make a system be accross-the-board high-end unless you price yourself out of the market. They put in killer graphics and below par power elsewhere. The same principle applies to all consoles, including the Xbox 360.
Obviously the Xbox 360 and a desktop PC are quite different beasts, otherwise there wouldn't be a need for the former. The big difference--and this is generally true of all consoles--is that you get some extremely high-end performance out a console in some specialized areas, almost always at the expense of general across-the-board performance. Take the Super Nintendo. It could blit an amazing amount of stuff to the screen: 80 sprites per scan line, three full-screen backgrounds, transparency, etc. It completely blew away PC performance at the time. Yes, including the Amiga
Mostly I find "Let's put Linux on it!" to be an odd reaction. I think what people want is for the hardware to be open, for documentation and development kits to be freely available. But that doesn't mean "Linux." I suspect those comments come from people who don't have a clear picture of what "operating system" means, people who think you need a big OS in order to write code. In reality, you hardly need an OS at all. You just need some very basic hooks.
I never could find the right version of Mechassault.
Try Blockbuster or a used games section. I got mine from GameStop's used games rack.
Surprising that nobody has simply made a boot loader that does whatever the Mechassault game does, but without the requirement of the special, long-discontinued game.
The only game that would satisfy that is a pirate version of MechAssault. The reason Linux doesn't work is that we don't know Microsoft's private key to digitally sign Linux as "okay to run." The error in MechAssault was that Microsoft signed off on a game that had a bug this serious. What MechAssault does for us is provides us with something the Xbox is willing to boot up from, until you mod it to allow unsigned discs.