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Open Source Worse than Flying
george writes "In an article published on TheRegister, Otto Z. Stern makes the bold statement that "The only thing as goat-rendering awful as flying has to be the progression of open source code." Accusing Open Source of being buggy and its devolopers of preoccupation with mudane details."I'm sitting here...wondering when the Linux freaks are going to solve their Ubuntu versus Mandriva color scheme debate or maybe even write a printer driver so that something I buy actually works with my open sores PC.""
Open-source Mozilla Firefox 1.5 is out, and it's decidedly less buggy than IE.
Synergy is your friend
Isn't it the responsibility of the hardware manufacturer to provide drivers? Perhaps I am just crazy...but aren't generic drivers a godsend in themselves?
What day is it? Could you please tell me?
Where is the foot icon?
When the ones developing it are the ones using it all the time. The closer to things you are, the easier it is to lose track of how bad they suck (there's a reason the first thing apple removed from their unix was X11).
what is this, an attemt to start the biggest flame war ever? we all know this isn't news, it's just the opinion of one idiot. what the hell is it doing on slashdot?
Exactly. Accusations. He doesn't really know what he's talking about...and his article speaks for itself in that context. He really comes off like a fanatic, but I would say: you have an "open source PC." I do too. Mine works. Lots of peoples' do. So...either you're doing something wrong, or perhaps you're a rambling, fanatical curmudgeon. Regardless, have you bought Windows?
Oh, it doesn't appear that you did. At least, if you have, it isn't good enough for you to mention.
ACs are modded -6. I don't read you, I don't mod you, I don't see you. Don't like it? Don't be a coward.
Yet another shill trying to get hits by rubbishing Linux/OpenSource, even if done in jest. Hohum. As interesting as watching Laura Didio or Marueen O'Gara.
I am mean come on this is an alternative OS people !!!!
Give the Open Source guy a few months and generally you will get a driver for your all-in-one printer/fax/washes my car printer thingee. Sometimes yes it takes longer but that is the rub folks you are working off of an alternative OS that most hw manufacturers are never going to directly support. Sometimes the new driver is easy and sometimes without specs... its damn nearly impossible to reverse engineer all of the features. Oh, you don't like that?
Sorry man maybe its time to go back to Windows or Mac OS X.
The linux freaks you see arguing over color schemes are not writing that neat new program or usually that device driver.
Those are fans for the most part not developers.
Yes, in a free world where there are no central authority forcing people to code but folks doing what they want yes sometimes the development process can seem slow and other times there is a burst of activity (note Rhythmbox as of late adding a ton of features after a ton of time where little seemed like it was going on).
Maybe people need to stop criticizing the Open Source community and start focusing on the corporations that make money off of linux and ask why RedHat and Novell and the folks behind Mandriva are not forcing some of their employees to do some of this coding.
But then again what is the obsession with printers?? I have seen this mentioned in a few criticisms of desktop linux but rarely if ever have a problem with Fedora or Suse or Ubuntu anymore. Now, sound in Gnome? That is where I am pulling my hair out!!! Someone replace ESD pleeeeeeeeze.
But I am still grateful for a free OS and all the people using their own time to contribute.
ACK
As something serious? Printer drivers are not the problem. It's all the oddball stuff. I'm sitting here trying to make a Corex business card scanner work in linux (anyone good with usbsnoop and usbrobot?).
It takes me longer to look up what chipset a new motherboard has, than it does to do "modprobe blah.ko". And if he'd stop using fruity-assed distros and desktop environments, there might be less debate about color schemes... or maybe he wants all the graphic designers (whose only way to constructively contribute is to give us fancy eye candy) to start writing printer drivers. That's right out of the microsoft playbook, I think.
This story deserves nothing more than a -5 flamebait. Discuss.
I read the article. Afterwards though, I am more confused.
Was it an overdone example of poor writing, or posing-at-witty critique of OSS?
In the former, it succeeded brilliantly, and the latter, failed just as dramatically.
At least it was more entertaining than another paid microsoft shill's bogus study.
3/10 because I feel generous.
or maybe even write a printer driver so that something I buy actually works with my open sores PC.
Excuse me, but isn't it the vendor that's respsonsible for providing drivers? If you want to place some blame, jump on their ass.
Linux contributors have tried to pick up some of the slack, but because of the fact that everything that isn't open-source is most likely proprietary, this is not an easy hurdle to overcome.
It's obvious that the Register was looking for filler, because this article wastes a good deal of space with absolutely NOTHING of substance.
Actually, I'm always open to reading opinions and ideas from people that I have never heard of. Sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised that these "unknown" people can have truly inspiring or insightful commentary.
No so with Mr. Stern.
I checked out "My prostate's as hard as an opal" and was similarily disappointed with his fetish around his own ass and related body parts. "Big Google is much worse than Big Oil" manages to mention herpes in the first line, and never does get around to making a solid case against Google apologists.
So, it's good that I read through some of his drivel, now I'll know to avoid anything written by him in the future.
i'm also very grateful to all of the opensource developers, great apps like gimp, scribus, firefox, bluefish, endless list these days...
...now said universities are all on Microsoft contracts
perhaps this moron is too dumb to remember 30 years ago, most software came out of universities
Whats the use of pointless eye-candy (like compositing and transparent xterms) when the underlying windowing system (X) is more broken than a New Orleans levee. The big problems in Linux won't ever be addressed because you can't get enough people to agree on a common vision and work to achieve it (well that and the hostility towards commercial developers).
Linux is a lot like windows, each new version is a little bit better, but it is chained to doing many of the important (and broken) things the same as every version before it. Linux won't ever be great when it gets developed a lot like a katamari, layers of hacks that get thicker and thicker as time goes on.
Only Apple (and Steve Jobs) has the guts to throw out all the old garbage (X windows, the many start up daemons, unix copy/paste, gtk) and replace it with fresh new ideas (quartz, launchd, xcode).
Anyone who reads The Register regularly would know, Otto Z. Stern is a troll, "his" columns are probably not even written by the same person from week to week. It's quite funny watching how easily the Slashdot crowd rise to such obvious bait.
a.
That has to be deliberate!
More insightful than funny IMHO. No one is telling this fucktard to use OSS at gunpoint. He is free to drop his money on Microsoft crap, or Apple crap, or whathever the proprietary fuck other corporations have to offer.
Stupidity is an equal opportunity striker.
Fellow slashdotter Bill Dog
So what you're saying is... you'd have no problem eating dog shit as long as you didn't have to pay the chef.
Your position would hold water IF... and this is a big if... the Linux camp would quit trying to shove their collective ePenis down the throat of every other computer user on the planet who has CHOSEN (in the same way that they have chosen) Windows or OSX instead of Linux. If Linux works for you then fine... but why the ever-present cock-fight. I personally hate Linux. I prefer to do things with my computer other than fixing/configing/updating it. I'm not really a Windows fanatic either... but it's what I need to use in order to have access to my software and my work. I would really like to be able to just use a mac. I don't really care how my computer is doing what it's doing as long as it does. I don't need it to be EXACTLY the way I want in every regard (at the expense of usability). This isn't everyone's feeling and that's fine. Different strokes for different folks.
It's like walking into a room full of americans and screaming "I'm French!!! You're all stupid and wrong!!! We're right for the following reasons:...." You might be absolutely right... but the americans don't care. Every word you waste arguing your point simply drives them more to their defensive stance.
It's not a matter of "I just don't like the open source software/model so I won't use it." or "I should fix this". It's a matter of the open source community screaming "THIS IS BETTER!!!!!!! YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IT BECAUSE YOU'RE DUMB BUT IT'S BETTER!!!!!"
The average person dosen't have the know-how to 'roll their own' anything. If it's not right, then it's just not right and they're not going to fix it. They're going to go back to windows where things feel safe and cozy again, then they're going to be pissed off at the linux fan-boi that told them that Linux was really easy and great since you can just change anything willy nilly.
Ahh... Linux reeks of a dying breed of computer user.... the people who still want to dabble with the way the machine works. The people who still have aspirations of 'changing the world' and being responsible for the next big thing. They've lost touch with the fact that people don't care about any of that anymore. The computer has 'gelled'. There will be some minor changes here and there but for the most part, the days of the 'homebrew' are quickly fading. Slowly but surely you'll start to see the inner workings of the PC hidden behind the glossy panels and wood panels. It happened to the car... You HAD to be an expert on every mechanism of your vehicle if you wanted to get your steam machine moving down the road. There's a decently sized market for people who still tinker in this way, but mostly it's just a tool used by everyone to get from point A to point B. The solenoid has been all but forgotten by the housewives and sorority girls of the planet. It'll happen to the PC (see: Mac) sooner or later.
*I ramble too much...
Next time do some research before you buy the hardware, and support those vendors that provide working and recent drivers, and tell them about it. Even if you can't program yourself, that would be supporting OSS. As long as you buy stuff from vendors that don't even manage to release the specs (because they are afraid that somebody could clone their crap), shut up and buy proprietary stuff.
open (SIG, "</dev/zero"); $sig = <SIG>; close SIG;
You know, I think this inability to distinguish irony from sincerity explains a lot about the success of Dubya in hoodwinking Americans into voting for him. He'd've got nowhere in Europe, because he's obviously a clown - obvious to anyone equipped with a sense of humour or of irony, anyway.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
People like you deserve what you get... PCs that are locked down tighter than a DVD player or X-Box.
What you'll get is a world where freedom means having the freedom to rent your computing time from the man as long as you don't break the EULA.
Sorry, that's not for me (or most engineers, for that matter).
-- John.
hrmm.. I think, sir, you have it the wrong way round. What is dying out is the crook who pretends to know what he is doing clicking buttons on an obscure interface and waves his "certified asshole" certificate demanding big pay.
-if at first you don't succeed, stay the heck away from paragliding.
So what you're saying is... you'd have no problem eating dog shit as long as you didn't have to pay the chef.
:) in their beleiefs, but they're on the right track IMHO. OSS is more about using your PC in the way you see fit, and that includes being able to modify the software you're using or being able to choose among different software for the same task (open standards et. all). That you may choose not to is of little consequence, as someone might very well do it for you. And this not only applies to Linux as an OS, there's a shitload of perfectly good OSS software for Windows/OSX as well that works and works just fine.
:)
So, what you're saying is that you have no problem eating dog shit either. After all, millons of satisfied flies can't be wrong.
If you don't care about much more than using your computer (as you're well entitled to), that's fine. There's much more to the argument besides convenience, as i see it. Most OSS advocates are rather... mmm... fanatical
Now, you want your computer to "just work". In that sense, the Linux desktop has still a lot (a lot!) of work ahead in order to be as dumbproof as, say, Windows or OSX., but i keep finding that when it works, it works just peachy, and even better than their counterparts. I'm constantly reminded of this when i switch to Windows, f.ex.: for every thing that it makes much simpler, there's another that becomes impossible.
And even considering that, nowadays Linux is damn useable as a "Joe-sixpack" desktop, specially if you choose any of the modern commercial distros available. They take a lot of care in rounding the rough edges, and trust me, you won't even have to bother about fixing/configing/updating it, or more than you would have to with Win/OSX atleast. You should try one - a LiveCDs, for example, lets you boot a complete Linux distro from a CD and take a look at how they work. They might not be for you yet, but i think you'll find them much more usable than you think. We're not all typing obscure commands in consoles all day, you know
I only partially agree. Open Source software does have problems. On the other hand, hardware compatibility is hardly a fair target. It's an important issue, but OSS people are reverse-engineering drivers in many cases, instead of having these handed to them by the hardware manufacturer. Actual level of hardware support aside, you can argue, "Oh, Linux is not ready for Joe Consumer because of limited hardware support from manufacturers," but it's just plain ignorant to argue "Oh, Linux is not ready for Joe Consumer because Open Source programmers are teh suck".
And to the editors, please don't post any more articles fromt this guy. This barely contained anything about OSS (certainly nothing intelligent), and he's not nearly as funny and clever as he seems to think he is.
Telltale Games: Bone, Sam and Max
Likely this is just flamebait, as no one so ignorant as this would be likely to find their way to slashdot. Be that as it may...
No, the future will hold at least two separate classes of end-user machines. Limited, easy for morons to use, and something for power users. And the "for dummies" machines have not really arrived yet at all. I expect there will be significant improvements in interface over the next 20 or so years, at least.
My 80 year old mother is a good example-- she has a computer but the toughest part for her is the mouse. She learned to touch-type years ago, and like me, she has 10 fingers that she knows how to use, not just one. The Mouse interface is confusing for many people because the motion you are making is not where the action is, you can't "point-and-click" at what you want, you have to point and click way down and to the right (or left, if you've configured your system for a southpaw) of what it is you are actually looking at. That is not intuitive for many people, it requires the development of some relatively new hand-eye coordination skills. Mom learned to touch-type in her 20's however, so that's not a new skill she needs to learn. Sure, the young won't have that problem, and by the time they get old they'll know how to use a mouse, but mouse-based interfaces remain clumsy, just the same. It's a make-shift solution, not by any means the most efficient, and likely to be a temporary one because of it.
Besides the cognitive disconnect between the intended action and the intending action, there are many shortcomings to the mouse/GUI interface. Among other things, Mouse-based GUI interfaces make you wait for them to finish, while even the old tried-and-true text interfaces didn't make you wait to input, they have a liberating feature known as type-ahead. Even text based menu systems have it-- as you learn the menu options or command line commands, you can type keys far in advance of where the computer is and then walk away, rather than having to wait for the display to come up so you can click on some stupid thing just to get it to go ahead. Future interface designs will no doubt be far more asynchronous, not forcing you to interact with them at their rate, instead interacting with them at your rate. Why not let the computer catch up when it gets around to it rather than slave yourself to its pacing?
Most command line systems have another powerful feature, scripting. The exception to this is Windows, whos native scripting capabilities have been positively Neandertal. And pre OS-X, scripting on the Mac was mostly non-existent. With good scripting capabilities such as on Unix, you can connect together unconnected utilities and iterate, not just macro a sequence of mouse clicks or keyboard entries, or something limited to one application. Need to do something 10,000 times? A recipe for repetitive stress injuries-- start clicking, idiot. Familiarity with command line allows me to do things like that routinely in a short loop. Mice were designed to make the computer "easy-to-use," not because it was a particularly powerful means of control. And while there currently may be many non-textual tasks they are better at, many of those tasks were made non-textual simply because of the mouse/GUI attempt at "easy-to-use." Many of those tasks existed before GUIs, where you didn't need a mouse to perform them. And other tasks such as graphic arts are better performed by a flat panel and pen combination where your action and the computer's reaction are a little more logically connected-- many people are already using them. Mice may seem easy now, but that's because they're pretty simple-minded-- they really don't do all that much and what they do is better tuned for novice tasks, not power-user tasks. But note-- a novice won't necessarily stay a novice forever.
Missing GUI features that are routine in Unix for example-- I can instantly ctl-C interrupt anything that I started running and abort it. Ever accidentally
So your argument is that he can't moan about open source because he has the choice whether to use it or not?
Fine, well then Linux users should never moan about Windows, since they obviously don't have to use it. And people should never moan about KDE or Gnome either, since they obviously have a choice.
Woe to you when the day comes that someone ridicules whatever it is that gives you a reason to get out of bed in the morning. At the end of the day everyone is working on something which is arguably useless and anachronistic. Time to wake up and face reality. Life is pointless.
I think you're jealous because you're being forced to admit that you couldn't figure it out even if you wanted to.
fast as fast can be. you'll never catch me.
Free Software is about freedom, not price. The development model is different - you pay up front for the features you want, and then you and anyone else you distribute the code to, can use them for any purpose in perpetuity. People coming in this late in the game and seeing twenty or thirty years of software funded by other people and then complaining that it doesn't precisely fit their needs, without actually being willing to invest any time or money in improving things are no use to the community. It's like people pirating a copy of Windows, and then complaining it doesn't have a feature they need - would you expect Microsoft to give them any sympathy?
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Nobody here seems to realize that Ottot Z. Stern is just a joke. A fictional character.
"Windows is an unmaintainable car it has a steering wheel and a go pedal. When it goes wrong you throw it away and get a new car. That makes ownership quite expensive.
:)
Linux is a highly maintainable car it has 4 steering wheels, 84 pedals and a little knob to tweek the engine timing while you are driving along. You have to know every damn thing about it before you can drive it and your constantly tweeking it. That makes ownership quite expensive."
may i offer slightly different analogy ?
now, you have two 'types' of cars. one is windows. it is produced by a single company, all spare parts are manufactured by the same company. it comes in slight variety, having several models. you are not able to buy older models, though you can buy a new model, trash it and use some older model.
if something breaks down, it usually is pretty obscure that you get a flashing "service now" that can be deciphered with a specialised hardware that is sold by the same manufacturer.
if some part breaks down, you usually have to change whole lot of parts as they come together and there is no way to exchange smaller parts (for example, no way to exchange wiper arm, you have to exchange whole block). as parts are manufactured by the single company only, they are pretty expensive and obscure (for example, central computer can be changed, but costs quite a lot).
the cars work well on good roads, though breaking down now and then unexpectedly. don't try going offroad, unpaved roads are very, very risku.
it is very easy to service these cars, as kid next doors is ready to help. quality of this kind of service is of a very low level, but readily available. well, sometimes you have to scrap the car after such a service, but it sortaworks most of the time.
all gasoline, windshield fluids, coolants are compatible with this car, though some of them result in breakdown of the car.
the car has some problems with isolation, so you get a lot of different bugs in the car that are annoying at low speeds and often are the cause for the crashes at high speeds.
this car is very easy to obtain, almost all retailers have it.
---------------------
then there's this 'linux' type. they have in common only the engine, all other parts differ. it is offerend by a bunch of vendors, and you can choose any one you like. this might seriously impact the performance, looks and other aspects of the car.
you can get constructor type of the car that you build yourself - involves welding and other obscure things. then you can get one that's pretty complete and polished.
most drivers have difficulties choosing, as there are so many subtypes and vendors.
there are less techies specialised in this type of cars, so their time costs more, but generally they are much better at fixing problems - much of it can be attributes to their enthuasism about these cars (they are builders, owners and drivers at the same time), but having complete information about the car helps a lot. it is also possible to get some handholding when choosing the correct subtype for your needs.
spare parts are available down to every bult&nut, though you have to wait some time for the shipment to arrive.
the car itself is extremly reliable and fast, it can be kept for decades with almost no maintenance.
most liquids are not compatible with it, but careful evaluation when shopping helps to find ones that work. even though gas is available in few selected tanks only, the car uses several times less of it than 'windows' type. also changing colant and other things are very rare.
the car almost never breaks down, and even if it does, it is very easy for a specialised person to diagnose it without that device from the manufacturer and fix it, in most cases even without ordering any spare parts (unlike the other type, where dumping the car is the norm).
also a lot of accessories are manufactured for the 'windows' type only - air refresheners and all that stuff is hard to install in 'linux' type of cars as manufact
Rich
Linux reeks of a dying breed of computer user.... the people who still want to dabble with the way the machine works
You're exactly right. I get the same feeling when I walk into Home Depot and look at all that raw material. WTF are people thinking when they can just go buy a new manufactured home. And what's with all these people called professionals that are out there buying stuff at Home Depot too? Don't they know that trailer homes don't need modification? Just buy them the way they are. Nobody customizes things anymore. You just get it the way the vendor gives it to you and be happy. You eat dog shit AND YOU LIKE IT, as the previous thread poster explained.
No, the whole "customizing and controlling your environment" thing went out years ago. Look at cars. You just buy and drive and when it breaks down, pull into the dealer. Nobody ever shops at auto parts stores, there's no racing industry with millions of people customizing their cars for stock car races, etc., and certainly those ricers must just be some stock Honda model we didn't see in the catalog. Even those commercial fleet pickups with all the different custom boxes must be my imagination, since I know the car lost any customization capability years ago.
People don't like change. All people are the same. All people are like the former poster. Now shut up and smile when you eat your dog shit!
Why does he (The Register-guy) think that he's entitled to jack-shit? Seriously? So he uses free software. Does that mean that he can then make demands to the developers? "You gave me this software for free, and I DEMAND that you fix these bugs in your shitty software!". I might understand that line of thinking if he paid for the software. I might understand it if he was forced to use it. But he didn't pay for it, nor is he forced to use it. If it sucks so bad, he could always use something else or fix it himself. But saying something like "hey assholes! Write some drivers so I can use my hardware!" is not very constructive.
It is OK to file bug-reports. It is OK to make suggestions. It is OK to submit patches. It is NOT OK to moan and make demands. Many people just seem to think that by merely using the software, they are somehow entitled to make demands. In reality, they are not entitled to anything. The developers don't owe them anything. In fact, the users owe to the developers! The developers give them great software for free, and some people think that it's the DEVELOPERS who are in debt to the users?!?! Am I in Bizarro-world?
Hell, I even blogged about this just now (not actually related to this story, but another discussion I had just a while ago).
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
He is mostly crying about drivers. That is stupid the vendor likely provided driver software for the other platforms not their developers. He should be mad at who ever it was that made the printer not OSS they should have given him a driver for the platform if his argument holds up at all. I would say he should stop being an asshole and do some research before buying crap. You don't buy parts for your car until you know you have the right ones for your make and model. Why would you buy parts for your computer without makeing sure they are compatible with the rest of the system or if you do out of lazyness why would you come crying about it when it won't work?
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
> And to the editors, please don't post any more articles fromt this guy. This barely contained anything about OSS (certainly nothing intelligent), and he's not nearly as funny and clever as he seems to think he is.
Seriously. I'm really beginning to think that we need some sort of moderation scheme for the articles. This one reeks of "-1, Flamebait" like nothing I've ever seen.
It's ignorant, it's uninsightful, and frankly we're not doing anybody any favors by giving it the additional publicity rather than letting it just slip off into the ether to be forgotten. I'm all for the whole 'marketplace of ideas' philosophy and debating down bad memes when they come up, but do we really need to have a 500+ post discussion ever time some fucktard has a brain fart aimed at Linux?
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
I'm not sure why you got modded down; you're absolutely right in that I think that paragraph sums up what is apparently his entire worldview nicely.
I think that at the end of the day he and I (and I assume most geeks and a lot of computer users) have a fundamental disagreement over what he's saying. I do not think that people who want to dabble with the way the machine works are a "dying breed" at all, except insofar as the computer hardware and software companies are forcing such tinkerers out of existence through sealed boxes. That impulse to tinker is founded on an essential human characteristic, curiosity, which in itself might be described as a desire to simply understand things. Although it's obvious that curiosity is not something which the author possesses, at least to any appreciable degree, there are lots of people (particularly younger ones) who do.
His philosophy is frankly disgusting to me, because it seems to be embracing what I find most disturbing about our culture: that many people find it acceptable to ridicule another's desire to understand, and on some level we find a desire for ignorance to be a laudable goal.
While the "housewives" and "sorority girls" (I won't even get into his obvious sexism, it's too easy) of the world may have forgotten the solenoid, the scientists, engineers, and probably even doctors and lawyers have not, and I think one should carefully consider the place of his two example groups within the power structure of our society. Speaking only for myself, I would certainly want my children to aspire for and to have the ability to achieve better than that.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
I doubt that 5% of the PC market will have any impact on hardware vendors.
I would argue quite the opposite: We need to write our own drivers where and whenever possible, as this makes more hardware Linux compatible. The larger the compatibility list, the more people will want it on their desktop, the more people using it, the more likely that a hardware mfg decides that writing and supplying drivers is a competative advantage they can use to sell their product.
I think the lack of drivers has two sources:
(1) - 5% market share. As a 'producer' it doesn't make necessarily make sense to spend time capturing such a small percentage of the market - write for Windows and you get in the order of 90% of the market.
(2) - OSS people do the work for you. As a 'producer' having someone else 'pay' for the work means more profit for you.
The closed-source option has neither of these two disadvantages ... and in my opinion the only way to overcome them is to play along with #2 until #1 is no longer true ...
If you think imaginary property and real property are the same, when does your house become public domain?
People who don't know anything about computers could be helping spam mailers out and spreading viruses. Not that they shouldn't be allowed to use computers at all, but they should be using something better and more secure than Windows.
And you don't have to tweak Linux at all if you don't want to - I just popped in the SuSE DVD and it did the rest for me. I had a harder time setting up Windows on my laptop and figuring out how to get that stupid "MSN Messenger" thing to stop showing up, and got a little angry with all the updates I had to do, and the fact that I had to reboot for every single one of them.
www.linuxpenguin.net