Slashdot Mirror
Kansas Anti-Creationism Professor Resigns
An anonymous reader writes "A Professor of religion at University of Kansas has resigned from his position at the university because of his anti-creationism views." From the article: "Mirecki had planned to teach a course in the spring that examined creationism and intelligent design after the State Board of Education adopted science standards treating evolution as a flawed theory. Originally called 'Special Topics in Religion: Intelligent Design, Creationism and other Religious Mythologies,' the course was canceled last week at Mirecki's request." The article goes on to explain that Mirecki evidently sent poorly worded email with anti-Christian sentiments around to people interested in the class, and was subsequently beaten for his troubles.
Could've used a bit of intelligent design.
He resigned as department chair, but as of that article, hasn't quit entirely. Just in case you don't want to RTFA (not that that happens here).
One of his emails talked about how he couldn't wait to teach this course to throw his position against ID in "their big fat face." Okay, if you profess (ahemm) to be a professor and you can't muster up any more intelligent way to communicate than that I submitt you have no business teaching at a university. Kindergarten? Maybe.
Of course these people know their beliefs are right and if people don't believe them then they bloody well should do. Welcome to the world of religious extremism, if you need me I'll be in the bar with the bulletproof glass.
I applaud the guy for having the courage to recognize ID for what it is, a (weak) philosophical argument, not science. But as head of a religious studies department, attacking a given faith is just unprofessional.
I'm an atheist, but I don't go pissing on church doors. That's (figuratively) what this guy did, and screwed up his career in doing so.
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
I read this story earlier today on HNN. He resigned as department chair, not as a professor. He's still doing all the same stuff, but with less paperwork. I know that in many departments, chair is a generally detested position because although it carries some prestige it often carries little real authority and ALWAYS comes with scads of paperwork that prevent academics from spending time on their first love (research or teaching, as the case may be). So the guy isn't out of a job or anything; the move is largely symbolic.
Make cheese not war 8:)
If these men can beat up a prof for saying things out loud, then its obvious the evolutionary process left them by the wayside, and they grew a up as apes. No wonder they dont believe in evolution.
Woot! I am from kansas
Then again, Im agnostic and havent attended church and base all my knowledge on written word and whatnot. Maybe in church they are saying to strike those evil doer anti-christians down like the wrath of god?
'I actually did that act one night in the south, then after the show these three rednecks came up to me. "Hey buddy, we're Christians and we didn't like what you said." I said "Then forgive me." Later on, when I was hanging from the tree...'
--Bill Hicks
"Dear Auntie Em: Hate your Intleligent Design, Hate Kansas> Took the dog" -Dorthy
- Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
A recent e-mail from Mirecki to members of a student organization referred to religious conservatives as "fundies" and said a course describing intelligent design as mythology would be a "nice slap in their big fat face." Mirecki apologized for those comments.
Me thinks "poorly worded" is an understatement. It's one thing when you're a troll on Slashdot using that language. It's a completely different thing to be in a respected teaching position and acting like a Slashdot troll. And he wonders why people are upset with him. *shakes head*
(P.S. I do hope they catch the assholes who beat him. That's not exactly acceptable behavior, either, no matter what he said.)
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
It's not a good idea to deride students or christians, and it's not as if every christian thinks evolution is wrong. I think it would have been a good thing to hold a class like that in a state like that, but if the prof is going to be confrontational about it, that's going to cheapen the whole point. Teaching ID in anything outside a philosophy class is such a crazy idea and so easily debunked that being negative is entirely unessicary, plain facts will do.
--The universe will not be altered by forum threads, even those which are very wry. --Tycho Brahe (Penny Arcade)
Mirecki evidently sent poorly worded email with anti-Christian sentiments around to people interested in the class, and was subsequently beaten for his troubles.
All he had to do was stick to science and his ideas would have won. Instead, he played into the stereotype that 'scientists are anti-Christian' and has paid the price.
But there are really three sides to the issue:
1. Dogmatic Christians pushing their belief system as the anti-science.
2. Dogmatic Athiests pushing their belief system as the anti-religion.
3. The Rest Of Us.
resigned
The United State of Kansas.
U SOK?
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
That's the part that confused me enough to make me read it twice. The CHAIR of the Religous Studies Dept. was saying things like:
- referring to religious individuals as "fundies"
- "a nice slap in their big fat face"
- others described as "repugnant and vile"
That boggles the mind. No excuse for beating the man, for any reason.-theGreater.
bloody bible bashers :-P
"Consider how lucky you are that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far
Remember, there are a lot of Books in the Bible. Some of the older ones (Old Testament) have a lot of stuff about smiting and even killing or enslaving your enemies.
It all depends upon what part of the Bible the church you attend wants to focus on. There's as much legitimacy in focusing on God's Rightous Wrath as there is in focusing on Jesus Forgiving.
Someone else was beaten or killed in the name of religion! *gasp*
What's the total up to now? A few billion?
Question everything
The choices of prefix for this post... I'm curious, why is he anti-creationist rather than pro-evolutionist? Now, this may be innocuous, but choice of words can reveal bias.
Also, anti-fundamentalist is not the same as anti-christian. Being opposed to a specific, fanatical, often belligerent sect of a religious denomination is not the same as being opposed to the entire faith.
-={(Astynax)}=-
"Darkness beyond Twilight"
A recent e-mail from Mirecki to members of a student organization referred to religious conservatives as "fundies" and said a course describing intelligent design as mythology would be a "nice slap in their big fat face." Mirecki apologized for those comments.
It's too bad he had to be so unprofessional. I'm all in favor of his class, but I can't sympathize with someone who acts like that. He's basically ruined it for other universities that may want to do something similar because he made it into a personal issue instead of an academic one.
So what are you alleging? That he beat himself up? Do you think that "a conservative activist in Kansas" has more credibility with respect to the investigation than Lt. Kari Wempe of the Douglas County Sheriff's Office?
Does smear have no bounds in this country?
Very well; let this abomination unto the Lord begin!
I'm not saying he deserved a beating, not at all. I was talking about the other bit. When you hold a professional position and act unprofessionally (remember, he was communicating with a school organization), there are consequences.
Also, there's no reason to assume "fundies" are idiots. They may be misguided, wrong, or just of a different opinion than you, but that doesn't make them idiots.
I've met some brilliant preachers, and I recognize that even though I don't believe in their Magic Man In The Sky (tm)
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
When a whole nation is dedicating itself to anti-Islamism, while Christianism is fucking it up the ass (how's that for "poorly-worded"?), it's only fair that in a state like Kansas, made infamous worldwide by that ludicrous anti-science christianism, scientists would have an anti-Christianism sentiment and it's only fair that they make it heard by all concerned. If they won't, who will?! Don't kid yourself, Science, and scientists are under attack by the deliberate liars and peddlers of self-serving nonsense.
here in Mexico. There was a student riot and strike (or something similar), they (the "students") shut down school. Some of them participated in violent protests against the government, and were sent to jail.
A law professor was going to give a talk about "Difference between political prisoners and criminals". The pseudo-students didn't let him start the talk, and he had to run away because they were all throwing him rotten food.
Lesson: Unless you're willing to become a martyr, never tell an angry mob they're WRONG.
OK, so... why do fundamentalists get so worked up over this evolution thing? The Bible says not a darned thing about *HOW* God created everything. And it's pretty easy to get around the "well, it says it only took a day to make ____" -- considering it also says "a thousand years are like a day and a day like a thousand years". But all holy-textual concerns aside, it's like arguing about the tool. No rational scientist would argue that God is provably nonexistent... due to the utter lack of hard data available! No rational Christian would argue that God HAD to have used a non-evolutionary mechanism to create the world... due to the lack of scripture on the matter! Evolution is the hammer. Life on Earth is the spice rack. Who build the spice rack? Who knows! But we know they used a HAMMER because there are hammer marks all over the wood. And nails were involved. So just grow up and admit you don't know EVERYTHING! Both sides!
It's easy to understand the conflict here. Of all people, scholars of religion are going to see how different religions absorb ideas from one another. I guess it tends to make them rather skeptical that any particular religion has access to some unique revelation. When you combine this skepticism with Christian fundamentalism in general and intelligent design in particular, there's going to be some discord.
However, it's very myopic to reach any kind of opinion that all of this reflects poorly on Christian fundamentalists, Kansas, or religion in the United States. Consider that for his heresy, this guy got a beating that 99.99% of his fellow countrymen think was unjustified. Compare that to Iran, for instance, where writing a book that others consider disrespectful to Islam will get you a giant-sized can of fatwa.
I can't wait for the F Games on ESPN. Sports to the Fundament.
After all, I am strangely colored.
I know, he had his friends beat him up! Or, err... He managed to convince a hospital to fake a report or something.. err... and the police department too! Yeah, that's it! Obviously anybody who's beaten up is going to remember the exact road it's on and everything. And you're going to remember exact details about your attackers too, even when it's at night. Nobody's confused, frightened or panicky after being physically assaulted, especially atheists!
Perhaps we ought to test out these theories on the stupid idiot who's trying to cast some sort of cloud over the guy's credibility without having any hard evidence to back it up.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
...would people be equally outraged if the Religious Studies Chair at a religious school, let's say BYU, were to badmouth atheism? My guess is that it probably happens all the time.
Which will work well until the night of broken glass.
Maybe it's not 1984, but it's 1938.
The only difference between religion and mythology is that mythology was the nonsense that people used to beleive, and religion is the nonsense they beleive today.
Keep your religion out of our science! You beleive what you want, but anyone that thinks they have a right to force what they beleive on someone else needs a swift kick in the ass (and yes, that includes other people's children, its tragic enough that parents are allowed to brainwash their own children)
The two men on a country road sound like the kind of christians who do say "turn the other cheek" as well as "squeal like a pig, boy!"
Liberals call everyone Nazis yet they are the closest thing to it.
In some regards, the Intelligent Design groups have a point. The way that our society treats intelligent men and women, it is clear that it is not a dominant trait. The way humans chose to breed and the way that the powers that be cut down anyone who dares question authority ... one would guess that intelligence could not have evolved in the human species.
The idea that people get worse with each generation has been around since at least Plato!
Personally, I think the intelligence design debate will peter out as people realization that Intelligent Design is not only bad science. It is bad religion. The premise behind the belief is that the writers of the Intelligent Design book can see the hand of God in the gaps of the fossil record as currently understood by evolutionists.
The premise of intelligent design is that our God is a second imperfect God who did a shoddy job when he put together the earth. God did such a bad job that we can see the gaps in the fossil record.
If you held to a perfect God theory, then you would expect to find a perfect chain of evolution in the fossil record. For that matter, studying evolution would be a very spiritual and fulfilling science in that you are studying a perfect work of a divine creator.
As more people seriously contemplate the theory of Intelligent Design, I suspect that they will find it lacking in both scientific merit and theological merit.
On the far side of the debate. There was one area I wish science would bring to the table. That is that there is a lot of garbage philosophy stuffed into science. This was one of the demons that Karl Popper chased. Both Hegel and Marx were trying to guise philosophies as science. Both Hegel and Marx were claiming to see the future direction of the evolution of man. Today, I see a quite a few philosophies trying to gain the highground of scientific merit in by similarly perverting science.
My point in this rambling is that good science is not in conflict with good theology because science (the study of the way things are) is also the study of the "divine creation."
What we see all of the time in these silly debates is crappy science in conflict with crappy theology.
It is a great shame that the proponents of Intelligent Design seek to deprive children of quality education because they have a bad theology. Similarly, I get sad when I see wanks pushing their personal believes in the guise of evolutionary psychology or that Hegelian/Marxists nonesense.
Both good science and good theology seem hard to come by these days.
I would have downmodded the parent (yay! Mod points!) but sadly there isn't actually a moderation option for 'bollocks'. You'll note that, of the parent's links, one is just Mirecki refusing to speak to a fundamentalist journalist (this is what we call "following the lawyer's advice", and from the tone of the subsequent interview I can only say that I would have done the same). The second is a Conservative activist incisively pointing out that not all information on brutal beatings is immediately made available to the public (or it would be incisive if that's what he realised he was doing) and suggesting that the request for Mirecki's resignation (which iirc occurred before the beating) indicates he's a shifty sort of fellow.
This is complete trash. It barely even suggests that Mirecki lied, let alone naturally pointing towards that conclusion. There are no inconsistencies. There is no need for double-quotes round the word 'beating'. There is only a respected member of the academic community, who planned a controversial course (and then made a stupid comment about it on an obscure mailing list), getting beaten up by two punks and a heavy object for suggesting that their beloved Creationism might, just possibly, be classed as a 'myth' in Religious Studies circles (which happens to be factually accurate, and wouldn't even count as tactless if he hadn't made the aforesaid dumb remark). This is unjustifiable and I'm mildly shocked to see anyone other than the monosyllabic perpetrators fighting Mirecki over this.
More, I'm deeply worried by the chilling effect this will have on other courses similarly critical of Intelligent Design and Creationism. Evolutionary biologists critique evolution every day - why should ID and 'scientific creationism' be exempt merely by dint of being scientifically vacuous?
For the love of God, please learn to spell "ridiculous"!!!
People seem to confuse the very tiny number of people who attacked this professor and who maintain a non-scientific militaint anti evolusionist stance with the much larger group of people who call themselves "Christians".
People are extrapolating the actions of a small group of hateful idiots to an entire class of people who happen to have an overlapping characteristic and disparaging the entire group as stupid, backward, or violent.
I suspect those same people would be horrified if the actions of a single minority member were to be unfairly extrapolated to their entire race or culture.
I'm so fucking sick of these people. The fact that this guy calls a spade a spade (ie. calling crazy religious freaks "crazy religious freaks") and has to then resign is unbelievable.
End RantMy roomate is a Christian, and he's a standup guy, thinks creationists are crazy, hates war and the like. He said to me the other day "You know, I really like the term 'Religious Right'. It implies that there's a 'Religious Center' and a 'Religious Left'."
This too, will end.
Kansas Kreationism Kommittee
Eh, I'm not going to go so far as to claim the attack didn't happen, but it does seem like there are some oddities involved.
c ki_folo/
c ki/
http://www.kansan.com/stories/2005/dec/08/ne_mire
http://www.kansan.com/stories/2005/dec/07/ne_mire
Who knows? I don't, but I feel sorry for all involved... the militant religious, the militant atheists, and stupids who have to put up with such a politicized anti-Evolution anti-religious crap. Long story short, people are idiots.
I've met some brilliant preachers, and I recognize that even though I don't believe in their Magic Man In The Sky (tm)
So have I, but they're not the ones that are pushing creationism.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
What would Jesus do?
He'd lie on the ground bleeding, same as Mirecki did.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
All of them? There aren't any sensible people of those faiths?
Boycott Kansas? What a great idea! Let's use the fact that this happened in Kansas to prove that a lot / most / ALL people from Kansas are religious nuts who beat their intellectual betters!
You know what else? Nobody buy anything from LA anymore! Rodney King was beaten there because people from LA are racists.
I rally behind your flag, noble sir.
and as a fundie I can tell you that you are misunderestimating how fat our faces are!
I live in Lawrence and work at the University of Kansas (KU).
t reated_after_roadside_beating/
m um_details_beating/
s tep_down_ku_post/ and http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2005/dec/08/mirecki_r esigns_leadership_position/ and http://www.kansan.com/stories/2005/dec/08/ne_mirec ki_folo/
a il.pdf
e nt_design_course_canceled/?ku_news
The Lawrence Journal-World is a newspaper in Lawrence.
The Daily Kansan is the student newspaper run from KU.
Beating story http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2005/dec/06/mirecki_
Follow-up to beating http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2005/dec/07/mirecki_
Prof. Mirecki resisns as dept. chair http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2005/dec/07/mirecki_
Several of Prof. Mirecki's posts [PDF warning] http://media.ljworld.com/pdf/2005/12/02/mireckiem
News of cancelling the course and a quote from a message Prof. Mirecki posted http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2005/dec/02/intellig
Exactly right. Altevogt is the fellow who was lurking on the email list to which Mirecki sent the note about "fundies", and who then shared the email publicly in order to discredit Mirecki. Whether or not that tactic is ethical, he's hardly an objective observer.
And I can't believe that the townhall.com column is the transcript of an actual interview; it's obviously satire. We're supposed to believe that Mirecki listened patiently to a couple dozen questions and replied "no comment" to each one, rather than simply cutting short the conversation at the outset?
At the risk of feeding the troll, I'll put in my two cents or whatever here. I am not American, and I had heard of both of these, but the Swift Boat Veterans "thing" seemed to be far larger in scale (of both the smear and the controversy) than the Texas National Guard thing. So to choose one good example, a more prominent one would be the advisable one. The Swift Boat Veterans thing is a perfectly good example of people talking complete bullshit in a high-profile way for political gain, and a single example is enough.
I'm sure there are high-enough profile examples going the other way, but Swift Boat Veterans is a perfectly good example, is what I'm trying to say. "Scum like you make me sick" shows a fantastic level of complete ignorance.
American-style protestants are going further and further towards the nutso-crazy-idiotic anti-science anti-progress anti-secularism anti-other-religions stereotype.
Every unfair stereotype of a an American WASP from 10 years ago has started to come true. Expect the unfair sterotypes of today to be true within 10 years (religious warriors, indeed).
This contrasts oddly with the vatican, who has decided to embrace science as the language of God's tapistry.
Even me, the dedicated Agnostic, finds that ringing a tone of truth.
What these ID idiots don't understand is that there is NO WAY a creator would use such a blunt tool as Creationism to *poof* the world into existence. "God works in mysterious ways". "All miracles are subtle". Blah Blah Blah; if THATs the case, than why WOULDN'T he use evolution?
In one swift motion, the creator, the mover unmoved, fathomed the universe. From that point on, utilizing all the 'random' constants that he blinked into existence, the universe expanded outwards in the big bang, following the scientific explanation of creation, evolution occurred, and we are currently at the present day.
How is that explanation not FAR, FAR more amazing, and mind blowing, and worth of a creator than, "Well, kids, God dreamed up our world, and a week later, it was there."
I guess the problem is that the American-style Protestant is really just not that smart.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
What "oddities"? I read both articles you linked, as well as the badger herald article you linked above, and none of them cast doubt on the beating. There is one conservative activist whining that a guy who ran to the hospital after being assaulted can't remember what street he was on, but nothing suggesting he made anything up. The second article from the Kansan said the cops no longer consider it a hate crime, but that does not mean they don't think it occurred. My guess is that to be a "hate crime" in Kansas, like here in California, the target of an attack must be a member of a protected minority, and secular humanists don't fit the bill. But there is nothing suggesting he made up the attack except insinuation on the part of an activist.
The problem is that evolution is not like a tool. Instead it is a self-propelled dynamic that needs no outside maker/creator etc. The prerequisites for evolution (differential reproduction of heritable variation) is both basic and abundant in all biological systems of all levels of complexity (it even applies to "nonliving" prebiotic chemical systems such as RNA soups and lipid mycelles). The point is that even the simplest bacteria has all the tools it needs to make itself a different species given enough time.
That is what upsets the religious. Evolution doesn't need any gods.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
Actually, to be a bit more precise, they're prepared to kill YOU for your beliefs.
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
Methodist churches have different views than Catholic churches.
Who's to say which is "correct"? Except God/Jesus, that is. And neither of them return my calls anymore.
Pay attention to the stories you'll be seeing about this. Check how many local churches publicly condem those actions and how many "Christians" write about how "he deserved what he got". You might have to hit local papers for that last one.
The church is shaped by the preacher and the congregation finds a preacher who shares their view.
In Kansas, Christians are the overwhelming majority. "Whites" would be a more appropriate substitution, in which case the "small group of hateful idiots" would be the KKK circa mid-1900's. The professor would, of course, be a black man who publicly insulted them and was beaten for it. Your point about allowing their actions to reflect on the majority still stands.
It's telling that you chose the opposite analogy, though. I have a theory that Christians like to see themselves as a persecuted minority, especially when they're in the majority and doing the persecuting.
he could have been more tactful in his choice of words. Also since he was assaulted for his expression I have a question. What happened to 'love your neighbor as your self' and 'turn the other cheek'? Sounds like the two that went after him are no better then the crazy people claiming to do things in the name of Islam over in the middle east.
~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
I'm a militant agnostic. I'll be round tomorrow evening to burn a big question mark in your lawn. (This joke stolen from Billy Connolly)
Rule #1:
Never argue with people that have imaginary friends.
The attack on Professor Mirecki is heartbreaking. Violence in the name of God is disgusting. I think that the rift between members of academia and radcial Christians is growing. We are becoming the society that as a nation, we most actively despise: a society driven by radical religious fundamentalists who have misinterpreted the tenets of the locally dominant religion.
Kansas has always been a little weird. Nobody can debate that. However, Lawrence has been proud to stand out from the rest of the state and see things more thoughtfully. This most recent regression has hurt what Lawrence has always stood for: freedom. Freedom to live, freedom to express one's ideas, freedom to explore the unknown, and the freedom to stand up for those things.
Whatever your current thoughts are about Professor Mirecki, the criminals who attacked him, or the course he was trying to teach, you should probably get your news from sources a little closer to the action. The Lawrence Journal-World has covered this quite thoroughly and has some very interesting blog posts from a wide variety of bloggers (myself included) discussing the articles. I recommend it if you want to get a better view of the scenario.
Plenty of stupid things have taken place in Kansas this year. Let's work to fix the problems that we have caused here and try to move forward.
Nick M.
Research Assistant
Kansas NASA EPSCoR
Maybe you are looking for the abortion clinic bombers and doctor murderers, I believe they are fundementalists. And the Muslum world (By and large) condems terrorism as well, even though extremists still perpetrate violence. Very little difference.
Oh Hell yeah.
I happened to catch a book-signing talk by John Gibson about his new book "The War on Christmas," a few weeks back. In his talk he mentioned several incidents where people had removed references to Christianity or Christmas from a public place and subsequently received death threats. He even said that one of those men had to move his wife and kids out of town for the holidays because he feared for their safety. Let me reiterate, the ones getting threatened were the seculars and they were getting threatened by people who were presumably very much Christian.
My girlfriend raised her hand and asked why Gibson was claiming seculars were perpetuating a war when his own examples showed Christians doing all the threatening behavior and she pointed out that he had said several times how nice the seculars seemed to be when he interviewed them. Gibson gave a very watered down reply that there are two sides to any war while the crowd proceeded to turn around and try to shout down my girlfriend. They neither noticed the substance of what she said, nor the fact that the she was taking every part of her point directly from the rhetoric of the author they had come to see. They didn't seem upset in the least that Christians were engaged in threatening behavior.
I certainly don't have an agenda against Christianity, but I must say that in my mind Christians are doing very big damage to their reputations with these kind of antics. Death threats and beatings are so over-the-top wrong that it amazes me when I hear Christians give the contradictory proclamation that Christianity is about Love. That it's about turning the other cheek.
I'm not against Islam, but I'm very much against Muslims who fly planes into tall buildings. I'm not against Christianity, but I'm very much against Christians who beat college professors on country roads. I don't think there's anything remotely like a war on Christianity right now, but if Christians keep insisting on beating and threatening people who disagree, they shouldn't be surprised when we eventually fight back.
TW
I lived in Lawrence Kansas over a decade ago. Even then stopping on a rural road and getting out for a tail-gating pickup with two men in it was not positive thing to do in your own evolution.
How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct.
-Benjamin Disraeli
Reminds me of a bumper sticker that I've seen... http://6news.ljworld.com/art/apps/pennynews/110916 2592_bigoted.jpg
How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct.
-Benjamin Disraeli
I, for one, welcome our new Literal-Bible-Reading overlords.
With scientific explanations out of the way, I can think of a bunch of ways to make a pile of cash:
- Blood Letting - "It worked in the 1700s and now it cures Bird Flu"
- Computer Security Pixie Dust - "Got popups and malware? Then have I got a magic sand bag for you"
- Magic Box DRM - "Now through this amazing process your record company too can protect its products from unauthorized consumer replication. Simply place products in the box for 30 minutes prior to shipment, add sheep's blood, and rest assured that your copyrighted content is safe (sheep's blood NOT included)"
- The list goes on and on...
Damn. I thought it was 2005.
If you look at Mirecki's areas of expertise his irritation with fundamentalists becomes all the more understandable. His areas areas are Ancient Mediterranean Religion, Early Christianity, and Coptic Papyrology. That means that he knows a lot about about religion in the area in which Christianity developed about the origins of Christianity, and about branches of Christianity that either died out (e.g. gnosticism) or have followed a rather different course from the one that led to fundamentalism (e.g. Coptic Christianity). For someone with this background, the belief of fundamentalists that their interpretation of the particular compilation of texts that they consider holy is God's Truth must seem particularly crazy. I can't speak for him, but I bet that to him fundamentalists seem ignorant, naive, and arrogant even if one looks just at the religious texts and their interpretation, without concerning oneself with the conflict between fundamentalist beliefs and science.
Of course, I forgot the inqusistion.
Nobody expects the spanish inqusistion!
Pot. Kettle. Black.
The fact is that, world wide, there have been many atrocities in recent years perpetrated by Christians. See Bosnia, Sub-Saharan Africa, and others. They're not much different from their Extremist Muslim Brethren Of the Book. In fact, here in the US, among American Citizens, Christians have comitted far more acts of terror than any other religious persuasion. Think abortion clinic bombings and shootings and the like. Not to mention stuff that is almost below the radar like what happened to the Professor in this story.
Shit, I think Christianity has the all time record so far for number of people killed in the name of God.
Thinking outside my Head
Or more importantly...
WWJD for a Klondike Bar?
This space unintentionally left blank.
Sounds like they'd make good KDE developers!
Please don't take this out on the majority of the christian population. Yes, there are people out there who use fear and ignorance to take their deep-seeded agressions out on others... this is unfortunately human nature (the wages of sin is death, after all), and far too many people are far too easily manipulated by this kind of stuff.
I just want to point out that BEATING PEOPLE UP is not a "fundamental" Christian philosophy. Jesus would certainly NOT approve.... Pick up a Bible and read through the entire new testament (you can skip Revelations if you'd like -- it's interesting, but confusing and not really the point.) Only then can a person actually understand what it REALLY means to live a christian life.
Blessed are the meek.... for they shall inherit the earth.
Chris
That's great that there's an underlying philosophy. Doesn't make it science, though, so there's no reason to give it equal time in a science class.
Yes, science is profoundly materialistic. That's what science is. Accept it or don't, but corrupting it does everyone who's benefitted from scientific fields like medicine, physics, chemistry, etc... well, it does all of us a disservice.
Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
Why is it that every ethnocentric/religious/sexually-oriented/whatever else group in the world these days is treated with respect except Christians? We're easy targets, sure, and it's not unexpected. After all, 6000 of us were covered in pitch and set on fire to light Roman streets in one fell swoop under Emperor Nero. Why should we expect any different treatment now?
Some facts
Percentage of the U.S. population who self-identify as Christian: %82
Percentage of Senators = 89%
Percentage of Representatives = 90%
Percentage of Supreme Court Justices = %78
Percentage of Presidents = %100
Percentage of Current Governors = 94%
Christmas = Federal Holiday
and I can go on and on.
Poor little Christians. So very, very oppressed.
As someone who is both interested in dismissing the conspiracy theories and was enrolled in the cancelled class, I think it is time to post some real information.
First, Paul Mirecki is a well-respected scholar in the field of Christianity. He is regularly chosen as the lecturer for the week that covers the Old Testament of the Bible in an Honors Western Civilization I course. Mirecki's personal beliefs regarding religion never came up in that lecture - he stuck to the facts. My experiences echo those of nearly every student who has taken a course taught by him. In his 20+ years as head of the Religious Studies department, Mirecki's scholarship and teaching have been praised by scholars and students alike.
Second, the email in question was sent via a Yahoo listserv to members of the KU Society of Open-Minded Atheists and Agnostics (SOMAA). While the group may be a part of KU, it is about as disconnected from the everyday processes of the University as can be. Student groups are funded through the KU Student Senate, which means the University's own democratic processes (which include plenty of Christians as voters) elected a body of individuals who sanctioned funding of SOMAA. The Christian individual who released the one paragraph of the email had no business doing so. The released text was taken out of any context (the vast majority of the message had nothing to do with the class in question). In addition, complaining about SOMAA being anti-Christian is akin to me joining the listserv for any of the multiple Christian student groups and then whining when they mention God or Jesus in their emails.
Third, the Kansas legislature has a history of trying to destroy the University of Kansas. Several years ago, a state legislator claimed a student came to her and accused the professor of a popular Human Sexuality course of promoting pedofilia among other things. After much hubub and threats from the state, it came out that the 'student' was actually an aide of the legislator in question, had been encouraged to falsify her claims, and an investigation by the University found zero evidence to back the claims. Keep in mind here folks that we have more than one legislator without so much as a high school diploma. A prominent representative from wealthy Johnson County has vocally voiced her opposition to the 19th Amendment and women's suffrage. The conservative majority in our state legislature is uneducated, inept, and scary - only our governer is keeping things from getting too out of control.
And finally, the beating is real. I notice one of the sources often cited for inconsitencies in stories is www.kansan.com . That is the online version of our student newspaper, and I would shudder to think that The Kansan would be used as a serious resource. The journalists on our newspaper staff have difficulties differentiating between their/there/they're, much less getting their facts straight on a criminal investigation. Please, if you're going to cite a Lawrence paper, at least go with something more reputable like the Journal World. After visiting with several faculty members of the Religious Studies department, they all gave similar accounts of Mirecki's injuries. Sorry to say, but I trust the accounts of professors with whom I have developed personal friendships over CNN journalists who probably did not even know where Lawrence was before this whole incident occurred.
Someone else was beaten or killed in the name of religion! *gasp*
What's the total up to now? A few billion?
Being that religion has been the social glue to bind humanity's tribal attitudes together for, oh only ten of thousands of years against the last two-three centuries of secularlist thought, methinks you give religion too much of a bad rap.
Atheist viewpoints are not inherently better. Look how many people have been killed in a few years by fascists in worship of the state and racial purity or communists in the rise of the proletariat over the bourgeoisie or in economic "growth" initiatives.
People are people and will attempt to hurt people who are different from them regardless of what supposed values make their kind of people better. Religion gets a bad rap because it's been the most abused concept in history, but making religion go away won't fix that human tendency either. It is not religion's sole provence (to paraphrase Voltaire) to make one believe in absurdities and then commit atrocities.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
Copts, being orthodox (and Orthodox) Christians also believe that the Bible is God's word. Furthermore, there is a great suspicion about the theory of evolution among the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox. Notice that the Church Fathers, whose teachings ultimately constitute the Holy Tradition which is the basis of the faith and can't be questions, assumed that the story of creation in Genesis is true in its general details. While the Orthodox and American fundamentalist Christians greatly differ on many subjects, this is probably not one of them.
Interesting comments. I too tend to believe that there's more to life than simple biomechanics, but IMO the fuss isn't about Evolution vs Intelligent Design or Science vs Religion.
Many (and I'd hope most) of the scientists, teachers and professors who object to including Intelligent Design in science classes aren't objecting because they think Evolution is 100% correct, or because they think Intelligent Design is wrong. They object because Intelligent Design isn't science, by definition of the term "science".
There are two purposes to any science class, in my opinion: one is to teach students what are currently believed to be the most accurate scientific theories, but the other (and perhaps more important) purpose is to teach the scientific method: the method by which those theories are developed.
The main components of the scientific method are observation and experimentation. That is, you observe something, formulate a hypothesis, develop experiments that you can run to test the hypothesis, run the experiment and then see how well your hypothesis holds up. Typically, you'd find that something wasn't exactly the way you thought it would be, so you'd tweak your hypothesis, develop new experiments, and repeat the process ad infinitum. Through this process, you'd inch closer and closer to "the truth".
With Intelligent Design, however, there aren't any experiments that you can run to reliably test the hypothesis. If God is omnipotent, God can alter the outcome of any experiment. Thus, you can never prove or disprove the theory (which, is the whole point of Faith, as I understand it). While that doesn't mean Intelligent Design is wrong, it means it doesn't fit the definition of Science.
Now, many people (including Senator John McCain) wonder why teachers and scientists are so opposed to including Intelligent Design in the curriculum. The problem is that doing so would be an inherent contradition and, as a result, teachers would not be teaching the scientific method, which is the whole point of the class. It would be like teaching that beef is a vegetable in a botany class.
That's not to say that the current scientific theories are all correct. In fact, we know that they're not. One hope of teaching science is to develop the next generation of scientists who can test and refine or change the current theories (or develop new ones) and bring us closer to "the truth". If we teach students that it's acceptible to ignore the results of scientific method in favor of theories that are untestable, then we are crippling our own progress and will slip further and further behind Germany and Japan (for example) in fields like Engineering. Would you want to fly in an airplane whose design was based on theories that are not testable and which contradict what we believe to be the laws of physics? Or, more succinctly, would you fly in an airplane whose design was based on faith?
This is not to say that we should never discuss Intelligent Design at all. I've heard many scientists say that it is a valid topic, just not for a science class (or, at least, not a high-school level science class, in my opinion).
Interestingly, many scientists feel the same way about String Theory as well (which is why this isn't about Science vs Religion). String theory is an attempt to rectify some of the inconsistencies between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. The problem is that there's no observable tests for String Theory. So, while it might be true, there's no way we could test it to find out.
At one point (and it may still be the case) there were five versions of string theory, all of which seemed equally valid. But some of those theories contradicted the others. Since none of them could be tested, how would you know which one is correct? Similarly
Yeah, those Christian fundies are hacking off people's heads all over the place, and blowing themselves up inside crowded buses, schools, and bars because the rest of us don't believe exactly as they do.
Idiot.
Yeah, instead the Christ fundies blow up unidentified crowds of people (who are just walking down the street in their own country) with laser GBU's, kill innocents including children, call them "collateral damage" and the overall operation a "liberation" and all in the name of taking down some regime which never threatened to attack or had the means to attack the USA.
Iraq did of course have a cunt load of oil, but that has nothing to do with the "liberation" does it?
Then there is the whole torturing random people (who had one two many AK's in their house) to death and raping women (I've seen the photos). Oh and then there is the Christ fundies who make pot shots at random people in Iraq going about their own business (I've seen the video). Oh and the shooting of unarmed "combatants" (seen lots of the videos)... oh and the avoidance of getting so much as a shrapnel hit on a mosque, yet happily killing people who exit that same mosque, only once they get far enough away... etc etc etc.
Yeah, the Christ fundies are just a bunch of kind, loving, forgiving, good folk aren't they?
Hang on a sec, one to many AK's? If we applied this to the US, almost everyone would be fucking dead. Oh but that is okay because it allows US citizens to protect themselves from a government turned tyranical or from invading forces. So in Iraq, a home with more than 1 AK is a terrorist house, but in the USA a home with more than one gun is the home of some good little capitalist consumers. Right?
Idiot.
War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
I'm a Protestant, and I don't start with Biblical inerrancy or something like that. In fact, I find those ways of reading the Bible rather dubious. Rather, I have been profoundly affected by the figure of Jesus; who is he? What was he about? What would he have to say to people like me? The answers to those questions, and to others about the meaning of life and death and about lived beliefs, brought me to Christianity.
As a person of faith, I find that such a stance frees me to be rather more objective about the Bible, especially the Hebrew Bible. If I find out that Christ's story is a cheat, I can drop it, finally, in the knowledge that I was faithful to my reasons as far as they went. But now I don't have to concentrate on every so-called contradiction in the Bible. Instead, I can begin to know Jesus by examining the writings of the people who knew him best, and slowly expand from there.
So I don't always know how to take the Hebrew Bible. The sons and daughters of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob talked about God, at times, in ways I don't recognize. I am not trying to revive the Manichean heresy (he thought that the Adonai of the Old Testament was the evil God, and Christ was the good God who defeated Adonai). But I can allow the questions to get a lot deeper into my thinking this way.
Q: What did the comedian say to the crowd?
A: If I knew, this joke would be funny.
Do not vote for a politician who claims special communication with higher beings.
Probably even more so when he looks just at the fact that two of them beat the shit out of him for disagreeing with them.
Some people like these that use their religion to promote intolerence are making Christianity look a little less appetizing. I grew up Catholic, gave my first communion, and other such rites of passage. Fundies are just one example that's making me embarrased about my beliefs.
On the issue of ID though, that fact that it's psuedoscience has already been establish, and I'm not sure you can even include "science" in that term. Last year in AP Biology, my teacher brought in a National Geographic article that reaffirmed Darwin's theories of natural selection. I think ID was mentioned once during that class but it was a subject that was quickly dropped. Of course, that was about 9 months ago, before ID became topic fodder for the New York Times, Newsweek, etc. That's when I knew we had a problem.
If the religious fanatics won't go away, then at least keep ID somewhere closer to the study of religion, not biology.
"A man got religion, and asked the priest what he must do to be worthy of his new estate. The priest said, "Imitate our Father in Heaven, learn to be like him." The man studied his Bible diligently and thoroughly and understandingly, and then with prayers for heavenly guidance instituted his imitations. He tricked his wife into falling downstairs, and she broke her back and became a paralytic for life; he betrayed his brother into the hands of a sharper, who robbed him of his all and landed him in the almshouse; he inoculated one son with hookworms, another with the sleeping sickness, another with gonorrhea; he furnished one daughter with scarlet fever and ushered her into her teens deaf, dumb, and blind for life; and after helping a rascal seduce the remaining one, he closed his doors against her and she died in a brothel cursing him. Then he reported to the priest, who said that that was no way to imitate his Father in Heaven. The convert asked wherein he had failed, but the priest changed the subject and inquired what kind of weather he was having, up his way."
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
I love CNN's unbiased reporting.
http://outcampaign.org/
>[T]he proponents of Intelligent Design are really just pushing for equal time.
They don't deserve equal time. A right to equal time would imply they were saying something that, in the interests of a fair and balanced discussion, was worth listening to.
What a long, strange trip it's been.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
There have been about 3,700 terrorist attacks since 9/11/01 perpetrated by Muslims.
I don't hate Muslims, nor do I think they are evil, but it IS an interesting statistic. I am not blind, either, to wrongs committed by Christians or atheists.
I cried real tears when Li Mu Bai died.
This is something I'm still working on.
I cried real tears when Li Mu Bai died.
The differences between ID and evolution are not just differences in philosophy. Most forms of ID take as a major premise the claim that biological structures are so perfect that they must have been designed by an intelligent designer. And of course those IDers who are fundamentalist Christians, certainly a large fraction though not all, think that the designer was not merely intelligent but omniscient and omnipotent, the natural consequence of which is that biological structures should all be really well designed. The premise of biological perfection is an empirical premise, so empirical that it is false. IDers have a terrible time explaining why so many biological structures are horrible kludges. Take the retina for instance. What kind of nutcase would design an eye like that?
>This riddle always irked me: If God is omnipotent, can he make a rock so big that he can (I think you meant "can't") move it?
The question is linguistic nonsense. Don't agonize over it.
God can't make a square circle, either.
If you disagree with me on social issues, then it's pretty clear that you are a narrow-minded bigot.
When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I
realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way. So I just stole
one and asked him to forgive me. -- Emo Phillips
I go to the rabbi and I ask him the meaning of life.
He tells me the meaning of life, but he tells it to me in Hebrew.
Then he wants to charge me $600 for Hebrew lessons. --Woody Allen
Americans who watch news reports about Afghanistan and who lament how backward the taliban is should keep stories like this in mind.
I better not find out that a single slashdotting atheist celebrates Christmas in any way (giving gifts, taking time off from work, etc.)
That's a remarkably stupid comment. While I do not celebrate Christmas per se, I fully celebrate a winter celebration/feast/holiday. It's a time to have fun with friends and family, and add colour in the middle of bleak and cold winter. The winter celebration is in no way solely a Christian concept. Besides, my workplace shuts down at Christmas, I have no choice in the matter.
Two obviously non-Christians (Jesus tells us to turn the other cheek)
That's a sneaky statement. "Christians can't do bad things, therefore they must evil atheists". You know, they believe in Christ, the God, and the Bible. That makes them Christian. They may not have full understanding of the concept but it's the believe they faith in, so that's what they are. They're Christian, albeit errant Christians.
Millions of atheists murder and rape people,
And millions of Christians murder and rape people too. Given that people who identify as atheists make up 10% of the population in North America, Christian murders and rapists probably outnumber them by an order of magnitude.