Slashdot Mirror
Scientists Spot Rare 'In Between' Black Hole
An anonymous reader writes "Scientists have found a doomed star orbiting what appears to be a medium-sized black hole. This black hole appears to be a theorized 'in-between' category of black hole that has eluded confirmation and frustrated scientists for more than a decade."
...gray hole?
Authority questions you. Return the favor.
The link leads to some sort of science blog. An interesting discovery none the less.
Ah, you found me!
It's a trap!
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Sounds like 'tain't to me: "'tain't pussy, 'tain't asshole- it's inbetween!"
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
saved for posterity before it gets slashdotted
Dying Star Reveals More Evidence for New Kind of Black Hole
Submitted by BJS on Sun, 2006-01-08 11:58.
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Scientists using NASA's Rossi X-ray Timing Explorer have found a doomed star orbiting what appears to be a medium-sized black hole - a theorized "in-between" category of black hole that has eluded confirmation and frustrated scientists for more than a decade.
With the discovery of the star and its orbital period, scientists are now one step away from measuring the mass of such a black hole, a step which would help verify its existence. The star's period and location already fit into the main theory of how these black holes could form.
A team led by Prof. Philip Kaaret of the University of Iowa, Iowa City, announced these results today in Science Express. The results will also appear in the Jan. 27 issue of Science.
"We caught this otherwise ordinary star in a unique stage in its evolution, toward the end of its life when it has bloated into a red giant phase," said Kaaret. "As a result, gas from the star is spilling into the black hole, causing the whole region to light up. This is a well-studied region of the sky, and we spotted the star with a little luck and a lot of perseverance."
A black hole is an object so dense and with a gravitational force so intense that nothing, not even light, can escape its pull once within its boundary. A black hole region becomes visible when matter falls toward it and heats to high temperatures. This light is emitted before the matter crosses the border, called the event horizon.
Our galaxy is filled with millions of stellar-mass black holes, each with the mass of a few suns. These form from the collapse of very massive stars. Most galaxies possess at their core a supermassive black hole, containing the mass of millions to billions of suns confined to a region no larger than our solar system. Scientists do not know how these form, but it likely entails the collapse of enormous quantities of primordial gas.
"In the past decade, several satellites have found evidence of a new class of black holes, which could be between 100 and 10,000 solar masses," said Dr. Jean Swank, Rossi Explorer project scientist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md. "There has been debate about the masses and how these black holes would form. Rossi has provided major new insight."
These suspected mid-mass black holes are called ultra-luminous X-ray objects because they are bright sources of X-rays. In fact, most of these black hole mass estimates have been based solely on a calculation of how strong a gravitational pull is needed to produce light of a given intensity.
Kaaret's group at the University of Iowa, which includes Prof. Cornelia Lang and Melanie Simet, an undergraduate, made a measurement that can be used in the equation to directly calculate mass. Using straightforward Newtonian physics, scientists can calculate an object's mass once they know an orbital period and velocity of smaller objects rotating around it.
"We found a rise and fall in X-ray light every 62 days, likely caused by the orbit of the companion star around the black hole," said Simet. "The velocity will be hard to determine, however, because the star is located in such a dust-obscured area. This makes it hard for optical and infrared telescopes to observe the star and make velocity calculations. Yet for now, knowing just the orbital period is very revealing."
The suspected mid-mass black hole, known as M82 X-1, is a well-studied ultra-luminous X-ray object in a nearby star cluster containing about a million stars packed into a region only about 100 light years across. A leading theory proposes that a multitude of star collisions over a short period in a crowded region will create a short-lived gigantic star that collapses into a 1,000-solar-mass black hole. The cluster near M82 X-1 has a high-enough density to f
No. I think "in between" is where the switch is stuck in the middle (i.e., "subl" or "she's gonna blow"). Either way, something bad is gonna happen.
OK, this question just occured to me. I'm sure there is an obvious answer that I am overlooking.
How do/did the heaviest elements, which are/were formed in the largest stars, escape from those stars that ultimately become/became neutron stars and black holes? I know that elements are flung out from the star via super novae, but wouldn't the heaviest elements be at the core of the star that remains? how would they get out? Shouldn't they all be trapped in the stellar remnants?
my pet machine
If stars had been given categories like 'Doomed', i think i'd have paid more attention in my astronomy course. What Would Chandrasekar Do?
-AlexC
The more we see the more we can understand, and the more questions occur.
Given the possible variation in black hole sizes this poses some interesting problems for long term space travel. Mini-holes will pose major danger during high speed travel unless some fast detection method is found. This has resonances with Arthur C Clarke's story about the star mangled spanner...
I think it's somewhere near Uranus.
The ultraluminous x-ray source (ULX) in M82 has been identified as a possible intermediate mass black hole formed in stellar collisions in the super star cluster MGG 11. We find that the x-ray flux from M82 is modulated with a peak to peak amplitude corresponding to an isotropic luminosity of 2.4 x 10^40 erg s-1 in M82 and a period of 62.0 ± 2.5 days, which we interpret as the orbital period of the ULX binary. This orbital period implies that the mass donor star must be a giant or supergiant. Large mass transfer rates, sufficient to fuel the ULX, are expected for a giant phase mass donor in an x-ray binary. The giant phase has a short life time, indicating that we see the ULX in M82 in a brief and unusual period of its evolution.
---
Reading this and the article, I'm not sure if the claim is necessarily valid. What's to stop this being a smaller black hole, a smaller star orbiting closer (with the same period), and beamed emission? An intermediate black hole is still the simplest explanation, but doesn't seem unique.
I quit!
"This black hole appears to be a theorized 'in-between' category of black hole that has eluded confirmation and frustrated scientists for more than a decade.""
Hole one: I'm an innie. Definatly an innie.
Hole two: I'm an outie. Definatly an outie.
Hole three: ????
Profit!
I heard that there used to be plenty of those in the .cx domain.
The parent comment was obviously intended as a joke. Maybe not a very good joke, but a joke, nevertheless. The off-topic mod is unfair as the poster is clearly making a joke with reference to the topic of the article (in-between black holes). Is there some sort of mechanism on /. to automatically mod down as off-topic any post with the word goatse somewhere in the title?
my pet machine
...uhh, never mind ;)
With spending like this, exactly what are "conservatives" conserving?
sounds like a great tourist attraction!
I know exactly how that Red Giant feels.. .
a 'taint hole.
No, not Myanus ... Uranus.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
I can't help but think that an intern did some tweening with a newfound graphics program.
Only intelligent designer can be explain such holes, but even intelligent designer makes mistakes sometimes...
If it's blue, we should ensure that liberal weenies voting there use properly preconfigured voting machines.
If it's green, it's those damn environmentalist and we gotta put it to nsa watchlist.
If it's red, it's a fucking commie hole and we gotta put it to nsa deathlist.
If it's brown, we all know the sins it's doomed for, so why not name it Sir Elton John Hole?
scroll down a few stories
Physics makes the world go 'round.
It is now known that the Great Bear grew large and strong on a diet of massive black holes...
If you don't get it, look up where this is located in the sky.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
OK, who mooned the telescope again?
their server gets confirmation of the existence of the theorised slashdot black hole!
Here is the coral link http://www.scienceblog.com.nyud.net:8090/cms/dying _star_reveals_more_evidence_for_new_kind_of_black_ hole_9685
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Has the intelligent designer been busy again ?
... Breakfast and lunch ?
Hmm, maybe they did spot it inbetween breakfast and lunch, the statistics of that happening are high.
A slashdotting - you get the stick first and then the carrot !
FTA:
"With the discovery of the star and its orbital period, scientists are now one step away from measuring the mass of such a black hole, a step which would help verify its existence."
Is it just me or is even science journalism getting sloppy...
It seems to me that measuring the mass of something would not only help verify its existence, but prove it beyond the shadow of doubt.
It's a trap! http://www.itsatrap.net/
What scientists spotted it? What scientists were frustrated? I'm really tired of stories sourced to 'scientists' and 'officials'. I'm sure that TFA has some of the material that I want, but that's not the point. On a by-the-word basis, the internet is, for all intents and purposes, free. Putting 5-7 words of additional information in the story wouldn't break the bank and it would really make this thing feel less lazy.
Wait, don't flame me for asking, but are they talking about something in-between a neutron star and a black hole?
of which you are making fun ...
So light is escaping. From the vicinity of a black hole.
Correct.
Light can escape as long as it's not emitted beyond the event horizon. Accreting black holes can be very significant x-ray sources: you see x-rays from the infalling gas, which is intensely heated as it falls in. However, unlike gas falling onto a neutron star, you don't see any emission due to gas actually hitting the surface, since there isn't a surface.
I hope that helps!
A friendly neighborhood astrophysicist
Elements heavier than iron consume more energy in their creation than their fusion process gives off. But that does not mean that they are not formed in a normal star's process. It just means that only a little of them are formed in a star's normal process. Stars do not fuse elements that produce energy in fusion, they fuse elements. The primary star energy is from hydrogen and helium fusion. The neutron flux, as well as the rest of the atoms hitting one another, can result in fusion. if two atoms hit each other in a way that will result in fusion, then they fuse. There are not a lot of iron atoms moving around fast enough to fuse with neutrons, hydrogen or helium, and some of the isotopes formed are radioactive. Since this is all going on in the core of the star, we will not see much evidence of it.
wake up and hold your nose
I would like to point out that theories of gravity by means of particle/wave thingies are by no means proven. I call bullshit - this phenomenon is clearly too complicated to be understood by us mortal humans, and must be the work of some great almighty, all-seeing being, ie God, or the Intelligent Designer. Let's hear it for Intelligent Falling, the theory that God helps things, planets, and even individual atoms to fall to their correct places. Here's my proof:
:D
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39512
Brynjar
p.s. A new requirement from Paradise Gate Security just got called in. Absolute belief in Intelligent Falling is now required for Paradise entry - and those that refuse to belief might also be shocked to see what happens if the Great Lord decides to turn off gravity for the heathen
Most people laugh when they read this because its got big words that they don't understand. Sounds full of jargon. We laugh because we _do_ understand.
Do they know how long this "in between state" will last?
Julien. http://free.hostdepartment.com/8/81fortune/
I realize that's the current gospel but I've often wondered if the event horizon isn't dynamic.
Consider the earth/moon gravity wells. There's an imaginary line that divides the two wells. A dust mote on one side of the line falls towards the earth while a mote on the other side falls towards the moon. The line that divides the two gravity wells is dynamic. As the moon orbits the earth, dust motes that were falling towards the earth can find themselves falling towards the moon as the moon approaches them on its orbit around the earth. As the moon moves away, the dust mote can again start falling towards the earth.
Similarly, as the star approaches the BH, it seems to me that the star's gravity would shift the event horizon towards the BH. If a photon was right next to the event horizon on the BH side and the event horizon shifted underneath it due to the approaching star, the photon would be freed.
Where's the original article?! This isn't the kind of thing I want to take from a blog.
eat me
n/t
Now we just have to keep an eye on it for the next 10 million years or so to see what happens. Stay tuned!
Speaking of keeping an eye on it, has anyone managed to find any actual pictures?
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
What happens when two black holes collide?
A black hole is an object so dense and with a gravitational force so intense that nothing, not even light, can escape its pull once within its boundary.
Actually, I believe Hawking determined that information could escape from a black hole. So that means that something can escape, as opposed to nothing.
Web 2.0 == Giant Blogspam Circle Jerk
http://images.google.com/images?q=%22M82+X-1%22&hl =en&btnG=Search+Images
They reckon it's a massive black hole because it's bright. Black holes that give off a lot of light have to be massive, because of something called the Eddington Limit.
However, it's just a dot in the sky, you can't tell how much energy in total is being given out just by measuring how much is coming in the direction of Earth - you don't know if it's a 60W lightbulb shining in all directions or a 5W torch pointing at you. For instance, black holes can have jets (rather like pulsars) and a smaller black hole with a jet pointing at Earth could explain their observation.
Discovering that it has a star orbiting it every two months doesn't change any of that, as far as I can tell.
I quit!
Neutrinos can exceed the speed of light (in a vacuum)? Call the Nobel Prize committee!
This is a silly objection and not even right. Anything to do with human beings follow a Gaussian distribution of sorts. We can argue about the deviation etc but for a large group the mean and the median is almost identical. You are proposing a power or Zipf distribution that does not exist for human traits.
Help fight continental drift.
They're going to use Newtonian physics to calculate the black hole's mass... riiiiiight. Isn't this the same stupid mistake (not figuring relativity into the calculation) that led to these self-same physicists "inventing" dark matter to explain the "missing mass" in galaxies?
"oh, what's it called now?"
"urectum"
(Ok, from memory, so it may not be quite right)
Whatever, I heard that line before. "Oh, I'm in between career. It's just to support me through University."
Blah blah... Here is lesson we should all learn is that You Can't Never turn a Black Hole into a House Hole.
---
oh... i'm getting so "-1" for this...
"Don't let fools fool you. They are the clever ones."
nothing seems to come out of a blackhole, but then again you def. know
"somehow" that you are near one if you're near one.
in other words, gravity seems to come out of a blackhole?
sometimes the absence of something is information?
OK. I am also an astrophysicist, and I have been studying gravity in its string theory and loop quantum guises. Gravitational waves carry information, so they will *not* come out of a black hole horizon. However, gravity (as expressed in the theory of General Relativity) obeys what is called Gauss's law, which just means to say that it doesn't matter (!) what lies beneath the spherical BH horizon, or *any* imaginary sphere that surrounds it, gravity only depends upon the total mass (or equivalent energy) contained within. No gravitons need escape the BH horizon to create the gravity equivalent to the mass gobbled up by the hole.
- GRR
This line no sig
particle exchange occurs via virtual photons/gravitons/bosons...
these virtual bosons are off shell
they can exceed the speed of light
they aren't real, they are terms in a perturbative expansion
what are real are the real counterparts, those are not exchanged, but have the exact same interactions
Finally, I scientist who is willing to say "I don't know" about something that is so basic! Kudos to you, intelligent sir!
What if black holes were present before the big bang? And stars form around small black holes.And galaxys form around large black holes.And planets form around even smaller black holes.That would explain mine.
Perhaps I misunderstand the brief bit of quantum we covered in chemistry, but does not the sun emit only discrete wavelengths, not a continuous spectrum? That is to say, if you look close enough at the spectrum, aren't you bound to see lot's of holes? For example, might there be emission at 406.31 MHz, but nothing between 406.32 and 406.41 MHz (just arbitrarily picked numbers, by the way)? If so, what does it really mean to be pure white, or if you prefer, how do you achieve pure white without running up against the infinite energy problem?
I kill da foo' dat call mah mammy a black hole!! Grrrr!!!
Sincerely,
Mr T.