Australian IT Workers Concerned About Migrants

Oh geez.... by vishbar · 2006-01-09 18:39 · Score: 4, Funny

Here comes the deluge of South Park "They took our jobs!" quotes...

fp?

--
Ride the skies

Re:Oh geez.... by nmoog · 2006-01-09 18:42 · Score: 3, Funny

Well, speaking as an IT Professional in Australia I can safetly say... Dey Turk Er Jerbbs!!!!
Re:Oh geez.... by ThePhilips · 2006-01-09 21:39 · Score: 2, Interesting

Why people in wealthy countries never think of moving into developing countries?

Thou I haven't tried that by myself ;-)

Freinds of mine - married couple of Uni teachers - were working in North Africa (Marocco & Alger) for about 10 years. When they came back I only hear them complaining how much they earn here but can buy literally nothing. Situation in Africa was different: they were earning little, but most of things costed next to nothing. In Africa they were top - here they are just average. (They came back because both wanted to have children in homeland.)

What just reminds me about how overvalued, overpriced developed countries became with time.

--
All hope abandon ye who enter here.
Re:Oh geez.... by Richard+Steiner · 2006-01-10 04:01 · Score: 4, Insightful

Probably things like disease, unstable political situations, difficulty of obtaining work visas, etc. Or maybe such a concept is too far outside their comfort zone to consider.

I know I would have to think long and hard before moving outside the US, even if I knew that there were no inherent risks. My friends and family are here, and I like the community in which I live.

--
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.

A perfect world by Da3vid · 2006-01-09 18:42 · Score: 5, Interesting

If this were a perfect world, maybe the competition would be welcome, where the most skilled would still get their high paying jobs. The problem really is in figuring out who is the most skilled. I see no reason why the most skilled shouldn't have the best jobs, and if you're the best man for the job, then more competition is no sweat, right?

-Da3vid-

Re:A perfect world by umbrellasd · 2006-01-09 18:56 · Score: 3, Interesting

Sometimes for whatever reason, a nation might produce fewer skilled workers per capita in an industry than another nation does. But the fact is that a nation does need to protect its citizens, and an unmitigated deluge of skilled workers in an area from a nation with great capacity to produce them (perhaps they have a population that is 30 times larger) can be devastating to the local economy.
This would be a very terrible thing, and the reason it can happen is simply that some nations have far greater populations than others. Understand that, India, as an example, would have it well in its power to produce sufficient people in certain technical areas to supply the entire world with all the needed labor in that area. Checks and balances in work visas for foreign nationals is one of the ways to provide sanity.
So no, it would not be a perfect world if competition were welcome because the playing field is not at all level when the two nations in question have a great disparity in ability to produce a particular industry's per capita workforce.
Re:A perfect world by Ex-MislTech · 2006-01-09 19:31 · Score: 4, Informative

Funny,

I have worked for close to 30 years, and I have found lately that the bottom line is king .

A lot of the reason ppl are being hired from overseas is cost, not quality .

Don't get me wrong, some are quality ppl, I met some good and some bad while at cisco systems .

There is a perception that americans are fat and lazy, and I have met them too, but then again
I have met ppl that were awesome, but were paid very little because they were young .

I also see that older ppl are generally not accepted into the tech sector as being
considered unable to embrace new things and stuck in their ways .

Some old school telecom ppl got screwed on this HR techno-babble mental mindwash .

They need to just test the ppl, and have technical interviews in addition to the
personality assessment done by HR .

I have seen ppl hired at cisco that were pathethic , and they stayed even after the
DOT bust and ppl that stayed and left were both utterly amazed by it .

For the big corporations the accountants are driving them now, and 3dfx is a good
example of what happens when accountants and marketing droids take over .

Like I said, don't get me wrong, good ppl on both sides of the ocean, but some of the
most experienced ppl in the tech sector are being driven away by new visa workers
just for the cost savings .

As an american you can go apply at some of the foreign IT head hunter shops and no
matter your credentials you won't even get an interview .

They want ppl they can leverage with fear of being sent back home as well, knowing
it is the difference between a 3rd world job or being here making more than they would
in their resident country by far .

The flaw I see in this is that if money is made here, but most of it sent out of the country
to support their family back home, then money that would go into the economy here ends up
being sent out and deflating our economy .

They cry about a trade deficit, but they themselves employ foreign workers who send a great
deal of money home . "Just" sent via Western Union, "just" to mexico $6 billion USD .

http://www.businessweek.com/1997/19/b3526155.htm

I don't know how many ppl from other countries work here, but I know the figure is in the
millions, and I know it is from MANY nations . I also know generally the mexicans make
the least as well . So with that in mind, you can guesstimate the math .

When the corporations whine about the trade deficit, they can keep this in mind .

As for the government puppets protecting US jobs, that is a bunch of BS , and they should
all be flown to hollywood to pick up their oscar awards .

Peace,
Ex-MislTech

--
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
Re:A perfect world by MikeFM · 2006-01-09 19:52 · Score: 5, Insightful

As an American (white male - lower middle class) I just want people to realize that immigrants aren't the real problem - foreign workers are the main problem. The best solution is to make it easier for those foreign workers to migrate here and get decent jobs here. We have minimum wage laws and free competition that other countries don't have. A large number of foreigners working for $2/hr would move here where they can make $20/hr. I'd sure as hell rather compete locally where all workers are under similar laws and living expenses than with someone that lives in a dirt hut and gets dirt pay. There would be a dip in wages as competition grew but it'd be much less drastic than the dip from jobs moving out of the country. What do we really think is going to be left as a source of income for us as companies keep migrating jobs? Blue collar jobs have been leaving us for years, white collar jobs have been following - what is going to be left?

Make it easier for those workers to move into our western countries and encourage buying products produced within our own countries. That's how to keep wages high. Not by slowing migration. We want to force foreign countries to raise their minimum wage, improve their working and living conditions, etc and compete on a level ground with us. Pretty simple.

--
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
Re:A perfect world by MoralHazard · 2006-01-09 19:53 · Score: 4, Insightful

Sometimes for whatever reason, a nation might produce fewer skilled workers per capita in an industry than another nation does. But the fact is that a nation does need to protect its citizens, and an unmitigated deluge of skilled workers in an area from a nation with great capacity to produce them (perhaps they have a population that is 30 times larger) can be devastating to the local economy.

I like this post, because you actually display more sophisicated reasoning here than most of the talk-radio types that usually complain about this phenomenon. But I would like to point out something important.

The costs of producing something have an impact of the price of what's produced. If steel suddenly becomes more expensive, you can expect to pay more for refrigerators and cars--not quite as much more as the literal cost impact, but something approaching it. (There's some economic analysis that underlies this, but it's not important.) If the costs of production decrease, you have the opposite effect, where the cost of the product/service decreases.

Labor is the same way, and in many industries (IT being a perfect example) labor costs are almost the entire cost of production. Sure, there are servers and ethernet cables to buy, but commodity hardware has made it so that the vast majority of IT costs are in terms of actual dollars paid for salaries, benefits, etc. to the people that run the servers, write the code, make it all happen.

So if the market for IT jobs is suddenly or gradually flooded with people who are willing and able to work for lower wages, the costs of IT services will tend to go down, too (assuming there's some competition in the market, of course). You can buy hosted web services from lots of competiting companies, so the price of web hosting will go down. Outsourced helpdesk support will also get cheaper. The price of Windows won't necessarily go down, but that's because they have a pretty effective monopoly on desktop OS software (slightly different rules apply).

Since IT services are a cost of doing other types of business, the costs of producing everything that relies on IT will tend to fall, too. Whether and how much depends on those particular markets and how much of their total costs are IT-related, but there will be an effect. In the end, the costs to end-consumers across the economy will go down. And it doesn't take an economist to realize that to the consumer, lower costs are the same thing as having more money.

Like you pointed out (and this is the part I liked), this can be pretty messy if it happens overnight, because the original IT workers who are losing jobs and seeing less in their paychecks will just be SOL. Costs might be lower for everybody, but it may be a net loss the the family depending on a sysadmin's (now decreased) income. The breadwinner might have to retrain or change jobs into a new field in order to get back his/her original income level.

But modern, 1st-world economies can absorb these changes decently well. As long as the percentage of IT workers in your work force isn't too high, and the change doesn't come too quickly, the retraining and job-switching will happen incrementally and people will have time to adjust. And it's not a zero-sum game, either--after people do adjust and retrain back to their original salary levels, they're by definition working in fields where the "home" economy has more competitive advantage, so the net economic effect is positive. Everybody gets lower prices, and (assuming people retrain to original salaries), everybody is making as much as they were before. It doesn't work out perfectly, but that's the general idea.

Job protectionism works out to be the same moral give-and-take as any other kind of trade protectionism: if you protect the current salaries of IT workers, everybody else in the economy (including a lot of other poor, working stiffs) pays for it with higher prices. If you let the market do what it wants to do, you let the IT people take a hit in the short-medium term in exchange for greater prosperity in the economy as a whole.
Re:A perfect world by ichin4 · 2006-01-09 19:55 · Score: 4, Insightful

An unmitigated deluge of skilled workers ... can be devastating to the local economy.

Bzzzt! Return to Econ 101.

The local economy = everything produced locally. More skilled workers = more produced locally = economy grows.

Now, wihile said deluge certainly won't the devastate local economy, it certainly can devastate those displaced workers foolish enough to cling to the idea they are somehow owed a job in their former industry.
Re:A perfect world by Chuck+Chunder · 2006-01-09 20:00 · Score: 3, Informative

Sometimes for whatever reason, a nation might produce fewer skilled workers per capita in an industry than another nation does.
Interestingly I heard someone talking about this on the radio news on the way home today. The reasoning they gave for decreasing 'importing' people was that a lowering in wages was decreasing the desirability of IT courses to Australians (compared to other courses) and therefore Australia is producing fewer IT workers now. So, according to him at least, the "importing" of foreign IT workers was a cause of under producing native workers and getting more would in fact make the problem worse, as sort of a vicious circle.

To me it makes sense that a country should try and maintain a certain level of native competancy in skills, not that I have any idea what that level would be.

--
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
Re:A perfect world by Fulcrum+of+Evil · 2006-01-09 20:37 · Score: 3, Interesting

Labor is the same way, and in many industries (IT being a perfect example) labor costs are almost the entire cost of production. Sure, there are servers and ethernet cables to buy, but commodity hardware has made it so that the vast majority of IT costs are in terms of actual dollars paid for salaries, benefits, etc. to the people that run the servers, write the code, make it all happen.
So if the market for IT jobs is suddenly or gradually flooded with people who are willing and able to work for lower wages, the costs of IT services will tend to go down, too (assuming there's some competition in the market, of course). You can buy hosted web services from lots of competiting companies, so the price of web hosting will go down. Outsourced helpdesk support will also get cheaper. The price of Windows won't necessarily go down, but that's because they have a pretty effective monopoly on desktop OS software (slightly different rules apply).
The problem here is that you're conflating IT and tech workers with fungible assets (webhosting). We aren't fungible. You're also assuming that companies are rational when all available evidence points to the opposite. The presence of a large influx of cheap labor allows companies to lower salaries, true, but it also can limit the output of those workers, as talent is no longer paid what it is worth - you can hire a kid to run a bunch of servers for $12/hr and he'll do ok for normal stuff. You can hire another kid to build webapps for accounting firms (slightly higher rate here). What you can't do is build something truly innovative like google or the first browser or really reliable clustering, just to name a few things.
Of course, the response by talent is to go found a company and try to get big or bought before some large corp crushes them with money (this is one of those nasty departures from theory), thus countering the idiots who think that all tech workers are fungible and pay accordingly.
And it's not a zero-sum game, either--after people do adjust and retrain back to their original salary levels, they're by definition working in fields where the "home" economy has more competitive advantage, so the net economic effect is positive. Everybody gets lower prices, and (assuming people retrain to original salaries), everybody is making as much as they were before. It doesn't work out perfectly, but that's the general idea.
What do you say to Henry Ford? He trained his workers and paid them outrageous salaries (got rich doing it, too). Fact is, a race to the bottom is generally destructive, as people don't like to change too much. You may berate them for it, but you have to deal with the realities of the situation.
Job protectionism works out to be the same moral give-and-take as any other kind of trade protectionism: if you protect the current salaries of IT workers, everybody else in the economy (including a lot of other poor, working stiffs) pays for it with higher prices.
I think you exaggerate too much. GM should be a shining example of what you speak, but all analysis points to shoddy management and poor quality as the cause of their problems. Overpaid workers are certainly a problem, but I think you overstate their impact.
Now for a personal example: I build software. Working normally, my productivity can be as high as $250,000/year. In fact, it's likely within 20% of that, as that covers my salary + benefits + profit to the company. The flip side is that I could work harder and longer and double or triple my productivity. Hell, I'm pretty good - I may be able to do even more. Problem is, this would eat up all my free time and wreck my health if I did it for too long. I could also work harder and still have time for other pursuits, such as investing and ski trips. If my work figured out how to get that out of me (by measuring and rewarding), they could also make some good money. The people you describe won't do this - they want to take the whole pie and view salaries as overhead and

--
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
Re:A perfect world by Ex-MislTech · 2006-01-09 20:48 · Score: 4, Insightful

Bzzzt! Return to Econ 101.

The local economy = everything produced locally. More skilled workers = more produced locally = economy grows.

Yet again,

The shell game, you can get a different job, ad naseum .

How many degrees will you have to get to "keep getting new jobs",
When the old one is "SOLD OUT" .

When does the cost of the new degrees exceed the pay from
restarting your career everytime the "corpocracy" decides to
sell your job to ANYONE who will work for less .

Under this theory, if they can do any job for less, then they
will do ALL jobs for less, and thus their will be no jobs for
workers that are citizens .

Your grandfather or great grandfather may have died for your
country, but that doesn't matter anymore .

Business as usual, the bottom line is to be fed .

Greed wins again .

http://www.engology.com/E-News1375.htm

Now, wihile said deluge certainly won't the devastate local economy, it certainly can devastate those displaced workers foolish enough to cling to the idea they are somehow owed a job in their former industry.

I don't need a job, I own my own company now .

I am not so moronic that I cannot see that total replacement of all citizens by
L1 visa workers living in corporate owned slums sending most of their pay back
to their home country would have a negative impact .

During this time my and other London guest worker's corporate housing was frequently without heat, hot water and electricity.

http://wwwa.house.gov/international_relations/108/ sha020404.htm

I do not blame the ppl of other nations for wanting to get money to take care
of their families, but I think they and their country would be better off in the long run
fixing their country rather than picking the low hanging fruit off their neighbor's trees .

Peace,
Ex-MislTech

Ex-MislTech

--
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
Re:A perfect world by TapeCutter · 2006-01-09 22:51 · Score: 2, Informative

"Are we paying taxes to fund schools to train our replacements ???"

No, as far as I know no government funds foriegn students with taxpayers money, foriegn students are self funded. Here in Australia there are still plenty of jobs for someone with a computer science degree. I myself have had no trouble taking home more than the average wage for the past 15yrs.

--
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Re:A perfect world by twem2 · 2006-01-10 02:20 · Score: 2, Insightful

Exactly.

Trade and the economy is not a zero-sum game, and things are so interlinked that protectionism in one area can result is disastrous.

Unfortunately we don't have free movement between countries, that would make this even better, the labour force could migrate if the work changes (although of course, real world factors like family can prevent this).

Protectionism is not the way forward though, it stiltifies the economy to the detriment to all.
Re:A perfect world by JesseMcDonald · 2006-01-10 02:41 · Score: 3, Insightful

We have minimum wage laws and free competition that other countries don't have.

Someone else (an AC) already noticed this error, but I though I'd point out exactly why this is a contradiction.

Minimum wage laws impose artificial restrictions on the economy. Like any price floor, they encourage oversupply and drive down demand, which results in unemployment. For a simple thought experiment to demonstrate this point, consider the following:

Employee A starts out in an economy with no minimum-wage laws, making $2.50/hour for 40 hours/week. For every 120 hours of labor and $50 worth of material, the employer can sell a product for $400 ($50 over monetary cost). This increase is a result of the employee's time-preference: the employer has advanced $350 in wages and materials, in exchange for getting an additional $50 when the product is sold. We'll assume for the moment that this is the pure interest rate, the average monetary rate of time-preference. In other words, $350 three weeks from now is, on average, worth $100 in one week, another $100 in two weeks, and yet another $100 in three weeks (the rate is exaggerated for the purposes of example).

A minimum-wage law is passed, requiring wages to be $3.00/hour or higher. The amount of labor required to produce the product remains unchanged, so the cost of labor and materials is now $410. Assuming that the pure rate of interest remains unchanged, the final price of the product will be $460. Raising the price will decrease demand, and so less of the product will be sold. As a result, although the wages have increased by $0.50/hour, the number of hours of labor required for all the products combined will decrease. This may result in unemployment for some, reduced hours for all, or some combination of the two. In the end, the total amount of money spent on labor may increase, remain the same, or decrease. In any event, the product itself will be harder to come by. If the minimum wage applies across the entire economy, then the purchasing power of the money will decrease because there will be less to buy.

--
"The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
Re:A perfect world by stephenbooth · 2006-01-10 03:28 · Score: 2, Insightful

My observation, from having worked for IT employers who heavily used immigrant workers and living in areas where such workers settle, is that it's, now, very rare that said workers contribute more than the absolute minimum to the local economy. In the past it was normal for immigrant workers to come to an area, settle down, buy houses and raise families (by either bringing in others from their area of origin or marrying into the local population). These days, especially in IT, the norm seems to be to move into an area, take over jobs, spend as little as possible whilst saving or sending back to their area of origin as much money as possible then (as soon as they've saved enough) returning to their area of origin. Often the IT work in the developed world isn't a career, it's just a step to raise enough capital to set them up in what they actually want to do. I've had a number of friends working in IT who have come from India and had the stated intention of just working in IT for a few years to earn the money to buy some farmland or a hotel (which they would then hire other people to work for them). Even those in suposedly permanant jobs have treated them like contrator positions.

Stephen

--
"Don't write down to your readers, the only people less intelligent than you can't read" - Sign on Newspaper Office Wall
Re:A perfect world by JourneyExpertApe · 2006-01-10 04:44 · Score: 2, Funny

The problem here is that you're conflating IT and tech workers with fungible assets (webhosting). We aren't fungible.

That's a very cromulent point.

--
If you can read this sig, you're too close.

I don't know what they're talking about by MadLep · 2006-01-09 18:44 · Score: 5, Interesting

I work at a software development firm in Melbourne, Australia. We've had a lot of new work recently and have had to recruit extra developers. It has been very hard to find competant staff. Sure, there are a lot of wannabe grads and deadwood who have drifted through a few years experience, but it's slim pickings in general.

Re:I don't know what they're talking about by pookemon · 2006-01-09 20:56 · Score: 4, Interesting

We recently advertised for a graduate developer through a very well known Job Search website at a very well known University (and hospital...). Of the 2 dozen or so replys we got we binned close to half almost immediately simply based on the terrible cover letters (Eg. I would like to work for your Origination). 2 of the applications were Aussies, the rest were foreign students. Out of the dozen or so left (the ones we read past the front cover) only 3 could actually string a sentence together (the 2 Aussies and one Chinese guy on a student visa).

When we interviewed the 3 the Chinese guy had obviously copied his resume from someone else as he hardly spoke a word of English. The other two we pretty much ended up flipping a coin to pick our new employee.

I used to work for the parent company of an IT Employment Agency that organises the immigration of significant numbers of people from India. When their Candidates couldn't find work they'd "organise" a contract with us. Whilst their resumes often looked good (Gee I wonder why) they generally didn't have anywhere near the skills claimed.

I have also worked with alot of the Deadwood (having worked for Aus' biggest Telco and with a few ppl from Big Blue). IMO alot of the dead wood in the market is their because they were released into the market by the transfer from the Telco to the Big Blue.

That being said you hire Graduates because they are cheap - and you train them. If you want someone with experience you go to one of the many Employment Agencies and they'll find more than enough candidates for you.

my 2c

--
dnuof eruc rof aixelsid
Re:I don't know what they're talking about by Itchy+Rich · 2006-01-10 00:19 · Score: 3, Interesting

It has been very hard to find competant staff. Sure, there are a lot of wannabe grads and deadwood who have drifted through a few years experience, but it's slim pickings in general.

I lived in Melbourne for 6 months (2002-2003) and was looking for work in IT. I didn't get a single interview until I removed any mention of my nationality from my CV.

boom bust cycle by bobby1234 · 2006-01-09 18:44 · Score: 5, Insightful

Once again the boom bust cycle continues...

1. high demand results in increasing supply (more uni graduates and immigration)

2. demand deminishes resulting in supply being met

3. demand bottoms out => oversupply

4. low demand => less uni graduates and less immigration

5. demand begins to increase

6. goto 1

Re:boom bust cycle by Rocketship+Underpant · 2006-01-09 21:39 · Score: 2, Interesting

You've just illustrated the cycle by which the market corrects itself, wage prices being the usual economic signal (Adam Smith's "invisible hand"). It's not really a boom-bust cycle, though, since the market tends to make corrections quickly.

However, market interference tends to send the wrong signals to market participants, resulting in booms and busts. Here's a typical boom-bust cycle:

1. New Industry (IT, dot-com, whatever) emerges with strong growth potential.

2. Government creates below-market interest rates and expands money supply to "encourage growth".

3. Cheap credit causes over-investment and excess demand in new Industry.

4. Labour market mistakes over-investment for real potential, and labour supply (graduates, immigrants) expands. This is the boom period.

5. Over-investment (see 3) results in over-supply and poor profits. Businesses contract and the market rate for labour decreases as the economy seeks equilibrium.

6. Market equilibrium is denied, as the government legislates anti-immigration laws, tariffs, and possibly even wage protection laws.

7. High operating costs force many otherwise solvent businesses in the Industry to fold. Derivative industries also fold or contract because tariffs are keeping prices artificially high.

8. Government lowers artificial interest rate further to keep money flowing into the Industry. Over-supply situation persists.

9. When rates can go no lower, the majority of businesses in the Industry consolidate or go bankrupt. High frictional unemployment results because of workers who mistook over-capitalization for true market demand and learned the wrong skills. This is the bust period, which lasts until the misallocation of capital (investment, labour, etc) is remedied.

--
He who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.

how much more of this crap by caffeinemessiah · 2006-01-09 18:44 · Score: 3, Insightful

It's all very fine to point the finger at immigrant workers and blame them for vanishing jobs, but the question to be asked is why are they needed? Is it because immigrant workers are instantly, instinctively appealing to employers that they just feel a desperate urge to dump on their countrymen? If that were the case, then this would be a valid argument. But the IT immigration bias exists because the demand for IT labor exists. True, if there were no immigrant workers, then there'd be no shortage of X country IT jobs for people from X country, but there also would be a gaping personnel demand that X country's IT workers could not fill. The question should be why are immigrant IT workers getting jobs over the natives (and I use that term as respectfully as "immigrant")? And please don't come back with the "lower wage" stuff -- all the (few) job offers I got (being an "immigrant") were very competitive with those of local workers.

--
An old-timer with old-timey ideas.

Re:how much more of this crap by TubeSteak · 2006-01-09 19:06 · Score: 4, Insightful

When you have a high standard of living (USA, France, Australia) workers in high paying industries expect decent hours and good wages.

Foreigners from countries with lower standards of living (large parts of Eastern Europe, Africa, portions of Asia) tend to willing to work long hours for what we'd consider a shitty salary, but for them is relatively high.

The worker Visa program also creates something of a hostage situation (in the U.S. at least). If cheap foreign laborers start bitching about their wages or working conditions, they can easily get their Visa revoked and sent back home. Australia also has work visa programs, so I imagine it is somewhat similar.

--
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Re:how much more of this crap by Mateito · 2006-01-09 19:21 · Score: 4, Interesting

willing to work long hours for what we'd consider a shitty salary
C'mon. Everybody I know (including myself) in this industry in Australia work shitty hours. Programming deadlines, upgrade windows, tender responses, support calls. Even just the reading to stay on top of the technology. We get paid well because we know stuff and we put in the hard yards.
Looking around my office, if there are "foreigners" taking Australian jobs, then those foreigners all come from NZ (Out of 18 people I can see from my cube, 4 are kiwis). Kiwis don't even need a Visa to come work in Aus.
As far as these "unemployable" grads, I'd like to see their profiles. I still get people turning up with a three-year CS degree from a non-brand university, a CCNA and an expectation of a six-figure salary. Sorry guys, not going to happen when I can get somebody (either Aussie or Foreign) with a hell of a lot of experience for that money.
We don't discrimiate on race or background, but nor do we import people to work for us. Actually, I can't think of any reason to import "cheap" foreign workers: The hoops you have to jump through to get the Visa are still pretty stiff, they have no knowledge of the local market and if I just want to use them for programming, why not leave them where they are and send the work over?
No. I think at least a decent proportion of these grads don't have work because they don't have the skills or experience to land the jobs, nor the nouse to go out and get the requisites.

--
Norman Cook's Ode to Sl

Somebody get it straight by 246o1 · 2006-01-09 18:47 · Score: 4, Insightful

Either the skilled immigrants are taking our jobs (competing under our labor laws), or the skilled foreigners are doing our jobs remotely.

Either the poor immigrants are responsible for all the poverty and crime, or else the birthrate is too low.

Admittedly, I didn't RTFA before deciding to post, but i have read it now. Basically, it's all summed up in the title. Some immigration analyst interviewed by what appears to be a newspaper says that too much skilled labor is causing a glut. Nothing new, for those of you who follow this kind of news in America, or any other country, i guess. damned foreigners (not that it's not a legitimately difficult situation).

A single source gave them the gist. Then at the end, here's the kicker:

But Australian Computer Society chief executive officer Dennis Furini said that while there was possibly an oversupply of entry-level programmers, there was a shortage of specialists in areas such as e-commerce and network security.

An Immigration Department spokesman said it relied on information from the Department of Employment and Workplace Relations to draw up the skilled occupation list.

"The Immigration Department has no information suggesting IT jobs should be taken off the skilled occupation list," he said.

--
Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.

Re:Somebody get it straight by JanneM · 2006-01-09 20:29 · Score: 2, Insightful

However, the west has been sending money, sending food, sending clothes, doing training, and performing other aid for decades to help propel 3rd world countries to the modern age.

Nope, it's backwards. The point of economic growth is just so wealthy countries no longer need to send emergency aid. And this is now what is happening.

Given my choice, I'd rather see the money stay right where it was created.

It is staying. Note how the need for emergency aid nowadays is much more for "true" emergencies (earthquakes and such)? Fewer countries than ever are so destitute that they need relief. Those countries that are now able to competer for real do not receive aid anymore, by and large.

Let the 3rd world make their own. That's what we did. They obviously don't care about the help we've given them for decades to bring them where they are today.

They are making their own wealth. The IT business in Bangalore is thriving, isn't it? How would you propose, say, the Indian IT industry to develop and flourish and _not_ compete with IT industry in other countries? If nothing else, if you expect the likes of Microsoft, Dell or IBM to be able to compete for business in India, surely Indian businesses can compete for it in the US and Europe?

The good part is, many poor countries have grown a lot wealthier. But of course that means the difference in wealth has been reduced. You can't have one without the other. Note that the US and Europa has not grown any poorer by this development; just that countries like India have grown wealthier even faster.

What you are reacting to really is the growing disparity of wealth within your country, not the lessening disparity between countries.

Me, on the whole, I'm much happier seeing my money go to an up-ang-coming country, where it makes a bigger difference, and at the same time I end up getting quality stuff cheaper. And judging from the success of imported goods into the first world, I'm not the only one.

--
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
Re:Somebody get it straight by rodac · 2006-01-09 20:32 · Score: 2, Informative

You try to offer a 100k+ package for a specialist position in sydney and see what kind of crap will apply. You find a good ossie, good for ya.
We usually pay relocation for someone from either europe or the us in order to get someone with decent technical skills.

This is NOT cheap but what other options are there when you just can not hire locally?

Close to 50% of our hires over the last few years has been 100k+ package plus full relocation from europe/us but what other options are there?

Experience tells Otherwise by femto · 2006-01-09 18:48 · Score: 4, Interesting

The IT immigrants I know in Australia are getting paid more than the locally produced talent!

In my experience the immigrants aren't coming from third world contries and being used to force down Australia's wages. Rather they are from other countries with major (well paid) IT industries and Australia is poaching hard to get talent from these contries.

Hence the higher wages for the off shore talent. They are commanding higher wages as there is hardly any competition for the job from within Australia.

Others may have different experiences, but I can only comment on what I have observed. The people I know aren't 'entry level', though not all of them have a degree (lots of experience though).

Spinning out of Control or Spiralling Upward by Quirk · 2006-01-09 18:51 · Score: 4, Interesting

An introductory Economics text will speak to the need for labour to be willing to move to where there is work. Whether as individuals or as groups, those who battle the idea of economic globalization are irrelevant in the face of the movement toward freetrade zones and trade agreements. The current troubles arising from the implementation of globalization is causing friction and will for some time to come.

It's unlikely that isolationist nations can survive because trade secrets and laws protecting IP aren't sufficient to stop the flow of knowledge. The requirement is to stay competitive. Staying competitive requires a series of tradeoffs including bringing in cheaper labour.

Bite the bullet, it's better than the alternative of isolationist states at a constant threat of war.

--
"Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
Cohen

Don't worry by RickPartin · 2006-01-09 18:54 · Score: 2, Funny

Foreigners really, I mean REALLY love doing over the phone support. Us IT workers have absolutely nothing to worry about.

protectionism is retarded by circletimessquare · 2006-01-09 19:01 · Score: 4, Insightful

assuming equal proficiency, if someone will do for $10 what i want $100 for, then obviously the guy who will do it for $10 will get the job

whether he lives in bangalore, san francisco, or melbourne

go ahead and fight that, go ahead and wail about the injustice of it all

what are you going to do about it? what can you do about it?

are you saying it's exploitation of the guy who makes less? well he doesn't have to deal with the real estate market in san francisco... so rather than complain about how little the guy in india is getting paid, why isn't the problem that you are getting too much money for what you do?

--
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it

Workers are somewhat fungible by coyote-san · 2006-01-09 19:07 · Score: 2, Insightful

Doubling the number of developers doesn't mean you double the size of the industry. Some developers will leave the field, others will be discouraged from taking entry level jobs, etc.

The last point is something worth considering. My friends and I all have solid technical educations. A generation ago we would be leading the charge to get more students to pursue similar academic and career tracks. It's hard work, but it also meant you could have steady employment later.

Now we all discourage people from pursuing technical degrees. The risk is too high. Senior people may still be in demand (although we have to wonder about that as well), but entry-level positions?

For that matter it's not just IT. Higher education is getting much more expensive at the same time that skinflint republicans are cutting student assistance. That forces many students to be more focused on a "trade school" university education than the more well-rounded one of prior generations. K-12 education, it goes without saying, is now teaching to the test to avoid draconian measures under NCLB. (Never mind what a high-performing school district can do. How do you show improvement when you already peg the test? These districts will be punished for being "successful.")

That's a minor pain today, but where will this country be in 20 years? I don't begrudge other countries growing their IT economy, but what happens when everyone would rather stay at home with a higher standard of living than they could get here?

There's a term for what the US is doing -- "eating our seed corn". Businesses may need to look at the next quarterly statement, but the government should be taking a longer view. Maybe the solution is to increase immigration so these skilled workers are more motivated to stay, maybe it's to limit immigration so our students have a motivation to make the necessary investment to be highly skilled workers in 20 years. But AFAIK that question isn't even on the table.

--
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken

presumably that'd be.... by Alex · 2006-01-09 19:19 · Score: 4, Funny

All of the Aussie IT workers that aren't working in London ?

Alex

ps - Hi Neil.

Just shut up.... by mcbridematt · 2006-01-09 19:24 · Score: 3, Informative

Perhaps they should stop blaming others and increase the standard of what is being taught at Universities and the last few years of secondary/high school. The Australian IT industry is a shame compared to other countries.

He also said the Australian Computer Society, which accredits the IT qualifications of applicants for permanent residency, should introduce tougher English tests and insist that overseas students spend three years studying IT in Australia, rather than two.

The Australian Computer Society? Oh, these are the same guys who think IT 'pros' should be certified just like doctors and nurses. When its illegal to be an uncertified IT guy in Australia, please tell me because I will happily show the door to anything trying to enforce it.

the great IT racket by kevin_osborne · 2006-01-09 19:28 · Score: 2, Insightful

you guys supporting this 'no foreign workers' paradigm should be ashamed of yourselves. you're a racketeering mob if ever their was one: cronyist, corrupt and extortionist. take the medical fraternity in australia as an example of where this 'jobs for qualified locals only' thinking goes. the Australian Medical Association (AMA) has exactly these kinds of racketeering rules laid out in law (you can't practice medicine without being an AMA member; doing so is the equivalent of a felony) to prevent foreigners from taking up positions and possibly denying them the rates that allow them to upgrade their porsches every year. This practice continues while lack of specialists and rural GPs drives huge hospital waiting lists and ever-increasing costs of healthcare. And yet here is an example of a foreign worker: my wife is eastern european, and through her I have met older friends of the family, one of whom was a respected neurosurgeon in her country of origin. A neurosurgeon you say? surely she must be practising her incredibly difficult-to-gain level of education and experience to treat desperately ill patients on said waiting lists, right? wrong. she worked as a cleaner for many years while trying unsuccessfully to gain AMA membership, and now owns a small business completely unrelated to medicine and has left her hopes behind. The AMA is a cabal of price-fixers who use thier fraternity to starve supply and to artifically raise costs. You IT 'no foreign worker' bastards are just the same. If they can't place someone locally, or the candidates who do apply are shithouse, then foreign workers should be sought. If there's an oppurtunity to give gainful employment to qualified personnel from underprivelidged nations then we should jump at the chance. do you think its fair that an argentinian programmer should have to work for $20US a day to barely feed his family and drive a taxi at night to survive so you can be guaranteed of being overpaid for a job you're underqualified for, even though his code runs rings around yours? ps. yes, aussies are racist. %93 supported sending the NV Tampa home while on board Iraqis starved and faced either death or destitution at home. add to that concentration camps for refugees. and aborigines probably don't appreciate the name 'the lucky country' you insensitive twats.

It's the wages stupid. by www.sorehands.com · 2006-01-09 19:29 · Score: 2, Funny

It is not more qualified, generally it is cheaper. I know of one company that hired people H1B and paying them $2400/month and putting in 10 hour days. The owner of the company said that that is the top pay that they pay there, based on this woman being the highest paid employee. I have dealt with H1B people who were not very qualified.

Not to say that some H1Bs are not more qualified, but many are not really more qualified. Many employers put in fake advertising, or fake job requirements (ie. in 1997 requiring at least 5 years of Win98 programming). Or they advertise for people with a skill set thayt they don't require, ie. C/C++, Windows, Palm OS, Apple DOS, CP/M, RSTS/e, VM/370, SPSS, Basic, Snobol, Lisp, Perl, and Linux, but they are hiring someone to install linux on PCs. Then the employer claim that they cannot find a qualified person.

Once the H1B is applied for, the H1B must stay at the employer for a period of time. Meaning, they are stuck.

--
Fight Spammers!

Aussie IT aint what you think boys.. by ministerofsickeningr · 2006-01-09 19:32 · Score: 3, Interesting

I have been going there on and off for the last 4 years, and every time i go, i pick up industry rags, employment papers and all that lot, and check out the local IT scene there for software/IT work. let me tell you, its damn thin on the ground there, wages are laughable, and australia has a ton of overqualified people that cannot get a job. the worst problem is, not once did i see any evidence of an environment that fostered a silicon valley or whatever type of rampant innovation and development. maybe there is some geographic area that i am missing there, but if there is a bay area, or redmond, or boston there, i couldnt find it. it made me sad, cos i love the country, the people, and most everything else, but after 15 years in the IT industry in most of the hottest markets in the US, i'm fully accepting of the fact that i *will* have to change industries radically in order to keep my head afloat, should i decide to relocate.

Humbug ! by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-09 19:32 · Score: 3, Interesting

>> Australian IT Workers Concerned About Migrants

That's a deliberately misleading headline. Read the article or don't waste your time, here's a summary

Australian IT workers haven't made any comment.
The comment was made by a consultant longing for long-past Y2K golden days.

"Bob Kinnaird, of labour market consultants Kinnaird and Associates, said ........ "

I can't blame The Age for publishing it.

After all, if it bleeds, it leads :-)

Age old rhetorical question by redblue · 2006-01-09 19:36 · Score: 5, Insightful

Why is a global free market for goods considered good, but that for labor bad by so many inhabitants of "developed" nations?

Re:This article is garbage by ikarys · 2006-01-09 19:41 · Score: 2, Informative

I'm sorry, what has this got to do with "whites"? I do believe you views on racism cloud your mind from rational thought. Especially since you appear racist against whites. Where I work, we employ people from Thailand and India. We fly some of them over to work here in Australia. They get paid terribly in comparison to what the roles should be paid here. This is the "business" trend for bulk labour, regardless of industry. If its cheaper, business will do it. This is where businesses save money. They develop an "easy" to follow process, and then labour becomes cheap. Unfortunatly most of the time (that I've witnessed) it comes at the cost of quality. IT work should always be about quality. The contracts/positions are no longer financially feasable for someone with the required experience locally. Business can make huge savings in wages by employing someone from overseas. IMHO, we would be better off paying more for quality resources. I don't mind offshoring work. Importing workers is bad for the wealth of our local industry. If someone could be flown to Australia from a country less fortunate, to replace my role for a half of the cost, then thats REALLY bad for me. My value in the workplace diminishes, not because of my knowledge, or my experience, but because of imported labour. Imagine if whatever industry you're in started paying half wage. Also, different cultures can have different work ethics which are hard to work around. These aren't so easy to measure, and I think businesses quite often ignore the issues. For example, from Thailand we have some issues because the culture says "if you ask questions, you were to stupid to understand the first time". I've had a team of 3 "senior software engineers" each tell me that they understood a project (after reading a tech spec, func spec and a week of meetings), and had no questions. A week later, this was clearly not the case (even after verbal status updates "Yes its very good"). The one employee that did understand it all was a junior who asked plenty of questions (and she rocks at what she does, and I have a lot of respect for her).

Re:Spinning out of Control-Atlas Burns. by Ex-MislTech · 2006-01-09 19:56 · Score: 2, Insightful

I cannot speak to the levels with which I agree with your assessment of this persons
neo-globalization tripe.

You cannot have a fair, equal, and equitable relationship with nations that do not
have the same labor laws . Unequal ground = Unequal Terms .

If I were to run a company on US soil the same way one is run in China or other
countries I would be taken to court, fined, or possibly jailed if ppl were pissed enough .

This is about one thing, and that is MONEY, aka good old greed .

It always has been, and it always will be, "period" .

Extortion and manipulation of resources of ppl, aka human futures for the stock market .

Fle$h for sale .

The ppl that support the globalization tripe are most likely to profit/benefit from it
thus their perspective is skewed .

Globalization is how the country of france was almost burned to the ground, Globalization
is how riots have occured in the UK:

http://www.writewords.org.uk/archive/200.asp

Didn't hear about them I suppose ????

Mum's the word, keep the profits up mate !!!

Ex-MislTech

--
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"

History repeats by VincenzoRomano · 2006-01-09 19:58 · Score: 2, Interesting

There's no way to stop history.
This already happened several times in the Human history. One of the most kown case the "Fall of Roman Empire".
People coming from the borders substituted the Romans in almost all the "lower" layers of the society, thus actually changing the Roman Empire itself. Soldiers were not Roman at all, later officers and generals and finally even the Emperors themselves.
The same happened with economy. First the farmers and the goods traders, later the manufacturers. In the end of the Empire all the stuff needed to keep Rome alive came from abroad, even the wheat.
And Rome ended to be nothing more than a village from a big city it used to be.
The "empire" people concentrate into consuming resources instead of producing them and into looking at the world instead of taking care of it. The people from the borders try to exploit this by providing those goods, thus dumping the market and killing the "local" manufacturers and traders with lower costs and prices.
Most part of the western society will be replaced in a near future by "border" people. And there is no way to stop this.

--
Maybe Computers will never be as intelligent as Humans.
For sure they won't ever become so stupid. [VR-1988]

No, I'm not. by Kris_J · 2006-01-09 19:59 · Score: 5, Insightful

As an Australian IT worker, not only am I not concerned about migrants taking my job, I actually work in an educational institution that trains international students. Migrants are not "taking Australian Jobs", that's just a tired old stereotype hauled out whenever some, usually, right-wing nutjob wants to rally support for whatever cause he or she is abusing at that moment.

This is a small planet people, and everyone is just trying to get through life as best as they can.

Re:Lower wages??? by JanneM · 2006-01-09 20:04 · Score: 3, Insightful

The last ACS survey put this around 80%. Yeah - contacts are everything.

But that's really the same everywhere, in any field where skills aren't fungible. Not particular to IT or to Australia. In any given field, in any given area, people tend to know other people working with similar things. And any employer understandably likes the extra safety net of hiring someone who comes recommended by someone they already know and trust. Even if the recommendation is not wholehearted, the person - with strengths and weaknesses both - becomes a known quantity, and thus lower risk.

That's a major reason companies prefer people with some work experience as well. The fact that they have been hired once already in the field gives an implicit stamp of approval; someone else vetted them and found them acceptable. It's the same phenomenon anyone who's gotten engaged or married can tell you - suddenly you're much more interesting to people of the preferred sex than you were when you were single.

--
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.

Sensational Bullocks by gregoryl · 2006-01-09 20:08 · Score: 2, Interesting

I work in Australian IT and this topic never comes up.
I look around and yes, I'm one of two people in my team of 10 that are Australian, but who cares?
Like most others we are more concerned with our roles being outsourced off shore.
It's kind of cool being surrounded by different people for different backgrounds - I'm proud of the lack of discrimination and mixed culture that is in my industry.

This topic has never been a concern in any Australian workplace I've worked in. It is sensationalistic journalism. What next? Are our IT workers getting fat? Women vs. Man ratios. The dateless many at Star Trek conventions. *sigh* Next!

Aus has too few IT jobs anyway... by linuxlover · 2006-01-09 20:31 · Score: 4, Interesting

I attended a major Austalian University majoring in Comp Eng. Now I work in Silicon Valley. So I can talk about both worlds on a personal test.

Australia is a country with small population (20 mil) compared to US (~300 mil). There isn't a robust IT job market. This has lead to a massive 'IT recruiting' industry. These are the people who advertise with ludicrous(sp?) terms like
5years + Java experience is a must (this was when Java was publicly available for only 3 years)!
Also the recruiter guy interviews you has very little knowledge of Tech field and will throw some standard tech questions
- why virtual destructiors for C++ ..etc

Also other useless crap like
- where do you see yourself in 3yrs, 5yrs, 10 yrs (do I really want to tell the guy, that I will start my own company in 5 yrs!)
- what is your weakness, how do you over come it

Also there is no shortage of other 'BS' like
- writing a good cover letter, cover letter?!
- going to interview with full suit & tie

When I came to Silicon valley (during the dotcom bubble), I went to a career fair, aced 3 interviews on the spot, went to the company for more interviews. Had another 5 interviews with Eng team and got a job offer, all within days. All interview questions were spot on, trying to figure out if I had really done the things I have mentioned in my resume. I was interviewed by geeks and architects who knew their deal. All the while wearing jeans & t-shirt!

When I went back to Aus (my wife is Aus) a recruiter tried to set me up for an interview. He said 'wear a business suit with a tie'. After working in Silicon Valley culture for years, I didn't have the stomach to go through the BS again. So I declined.

thanks for reading.

Re:Aus has too few IT jobs anyway... by drsmithy · 2006-01-10 01:52 · Score: 2, Informative

Actually this is pervasive in Australia...you need reference letters from people who have known you for 2 years to get a bank account, a mortage, opening a business, whatnot.
Rubbish. For the first you need 100 points of ID (for the non-natives, a passport and birth certificate are worth about 50 or so each, drivers license about 30, credit card about 10). For the second you need 100 points of ID and the last few months worth of paychecks. The third I can't comment on.
It's been *ridiculously* easy to get a mortgage in Australia for the last 5 - 8 years (something that has the potential to come back and bite the banks _hard_ if the economy goes south). Heck, there are places who'll give you a mortgate if you just tell them you're self-employed and earning enough.
To rent a place, you need to give the past 2 or 3 addresses you've been.
Maybe if you're an unemployed nineteen year old who looks like he just walked out of a hippy commune. I moved to Sydney about 3 years ago and knew no-one, but since I had a letter from my employer stating I was starting full time work the following week and dressed neatly when I went looking, I was moving into a new place in a matter of days - and I'd never rented before in my life.
Finally, examine the tax situation before you move in any case!
This is good advice. Taxation here is relatively high, even taking into accounts the services benefits it delivers. OTOH, outside the rat-race insanity of Sydney or Melbourne, it's a really nice, laid-back place to live.

fuck the west by circletimessquare · 2006-01-09 20:33 · Score: 3, Insightful

fuck protectionism

i thought the whole idea is that the contrast between rich and poor areas of the world should level out, that this is progress

or i suppose you like regions of disgusting wealth contrasted with disgusting poverty in this world?

exactly what does the idea "progress" mean to you? or do you think progress isn't important?

--
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it

"bloody immigrants took our jobs" topic by l3v1 · 2006-01-09 20:33 · Score: 2, Interesting

Ok, so I'll have to start with telling that I'm also something like an immigrant where I live now (no, not in the US or Australia), meaning I have the nationality of this country but I was born in another country and then later immigrated here, and I'm doubly involved in anything IT-related, having both IT and EE degrees, and working in the field.

What I can tell from my experience and from knowing _a lot_ of what you'd call immigrant IT workers - not just who came here, but who went into western Europe and/or US - so what I can tell is that they didn't go because they want to live there forever, or because they didn't have or couldn't have got good jobs here, or because they wanted to take US jobs from US people, but because the money. Nothing else, but the money. Working a few years in the US can really mean a _very_ large boost financially for very many people from very many countries.

And thing is, IT/CS/EE-related people usually are a bit more "brave" in going in other countries to work, since if you're skilled, there are _very_ many opportunities, positions and jobs that you can get.

And added to the above, I don't think that the ever larger global flow of "work force", talent and skilled people is a bad thing. In fact I think just the opposite of that, and if I were in the position I'd very much encourage that.

Even I would have had some opportunities to go and work in some other countries, but I prefer being and licing where I am now, so I didn't go. But today I would go, since e.g. in my current job I'd only be able to buy a 40-50m^2 flat in about 20-25 years (I'm just getting 27 now). Now think about that for a minute.

By stopping foreign workers from getting into one's country to live and/or work one can only achieve one thing: hate.

--
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.

Re:Spinning out of Control-Atlas Burns. by Ex-MislTech · 2006-01-09 20:59 · Score: 2, Informative

An asymptotical narrowing of wealth disparity between the countries

With close to 3 billion ppl living in poverty by US/EU standards, to "equalize"
the pay scale, property values will plumment, and the currency will be devalued
to levels that deflation will cripple the US/EU .

I cannot say it enough, any job can be done by someone else from another country
for less, and they are more than eager to do it .

If every job in your country was systematically done by a corporate owned visa worker,
none of the citizens would have jobs .

How the hell would anyone pay their bills ???

I am not talking about one EU member working in a sister "state"

I am talking about corporate slums like in the bradford riots .

Like what this women is talking about .

http://wwwa.house.gov/international_relations/108/ sha020404.htm

If you still try to sell this, then your just on the cash cow and
sucking away at the udder til the tit runs dry .

The US, the place everyone loves to hate, and wants to work !

Hypocrisy !

Ex-MislTech

--
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"

Wanted: Immigrants --or anyone-- with PHP skills. by kale77in · 2006-01-09 21:19 · Score: 4, Interesting

I work for a Gov't dept in Australia -- web stuff mainly, a large system using PHP, Linux, database. We've been trying to hire new people for weeks (we're advertising in Sydney).

We use an interview plus a timed skills test which all current employees have passed -- it differentiates the sheep and goats better than anything else we've tried. Even (?) after being referred by a HR company, and having a sufficiently interesting C.V. to make an interview, most applicants have been very seriously underskilled, and at least a few have seemed dangerously incompetent.

All of which means (1) Our current staff are feeling pretty good about their job security, and (2) we really do not care where applicants come from. We just want to find them.

So .. leave Australia. I did. by torpor · 2006-01-09 21:30 · Score: 2, Insightful

Disclaimer: I'm an Australian, born and bred in one of Australia's most unique spots, but as soon as I was able to work, I left Australia .. and have been making my living, ever since, as a programmer, outside Australia.

You want to make money as a programmer, have a wonderful life, and do something worthwhile? Go to a 3rd world country and teach them to write code.

The world needs far less nationalism, far less 'right to my nations lifestyle', and far less elitism. The world needs more cooperation, more participation between cultures, and more direct influence on the ability of the poor, by the well-educated, such that equality does occur. Complaining about 'migrants taking our jobs' is the most narrow-minded, stupid, un-educated point of view in this modern age of technological wonder; living in a village with your laptop and giving the local kids a logon so you can learn their language properly is a far, far greater way to spend ones life.

I can't stand the 'lifestyle trap' that Australians think they have a God-given right to. Australia never, ever belonged to whitey. To my Australian compatriates, I say, get the hell out of town and live a little .. your lifestyle is the problem. The world needs you to leave.

--
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --

My Situation by hoofie · 2006-01-09 21:37 · Score: 2, Informative

I'm moving to Australia from the UK next month and I don't remember seeing any IT jobs on the Skilled List. At the moment, the Skilled Occupations List is made up of medical jobs or else such things as panel beaters, electricans, chefs, welders etc - i.e. skilled, but not automatically professional, occupations. We've got a permanent visa through my wife who is a nurse.

As far as I am aware, only an obscure or very specific IT speciality will get you a work visa for Australia at the moment.

As for all of these overseas students graduating and getting work visas, is it not safe to argue that a large number of them will be making a beeline for the U.S. anyway ?

Re:Spinning out of Control-Atlas Burns. by Ex-MislTech · 2006-01-09 22:43 · Score: 2, Informative

You do realize that the US as a whole has grown wealthier, not poorer, right?

The Ultra-rich have accumulated more wealth, yes, this is true .

News stories have been done on the vanishing middle class :

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A342 35-2004Sep19.html

The Stock Market correction of 2000 and then 9-11, was more massive then I think you
can imagine, it bankrupted most of the major airlines in the US .

Just now we have risen to the point we were at before 9-11, aka
the same spot we were at after the DOT COM crash .

Lay offs were literally in the millions .

Do you understand " MILLIONS "

They like to make like it has "recovered", but all that has really happened is
a shell game . It's all bullshit, just like Enron, Global Crossing, MCI, Ad naseum .

Greenspan knows this, thus his warning on a housing bubble .

Excerpt: ( 4 paragraphs up from the last )

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/040 4.wallace-wells.html

That job fell to Greenspan: Finally, on Feb. 24, testifying before the Senate Banking Committee, he came clean about the risks of the housing market, in a speech reminiscent of his 1996 warning about "irrational exuberance" in the stock market. In his familiar, glum posture, his bald head slouching low over the table, he warned that the GSEs weren't just unstable, but also posed a "systemic risk" to the economy of the United States. He suggested debt caps, to reduce Fannie and Freddie's role in the market, and urged stricter regulation.

These EXACT tactics have played out before, but we refuse to look back to 1929 .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_depression#Caus es_of_the_Great_Depression

They want to maximize the profit, raise the stock price, lower overhead ...Ad naseum .

I go back to the simplicity method .

If anyone can do any job here for less, then no citizen will be doing the job if the
bottomline is all to consider .

corporate funded slums to house the visa workers, because they aren't even paid enough to
afford the housing that the citizens have to pay for .

Read this woman's story :

http://wwwa.house.gov/international_relations/108/ sha020404.htm

Ex-MislTech

--
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"

No Southpark here. by raehl · 2006-01-09 23:05 · Score: 4, Insightful

It's an extreme example, but we used to have laws that made it illegal for black people to learn to read. Why? God forbid a black person should achieve the same ability to do a job as a white person.

We can't (ethically) prevent other people on this planet from educating themselves. We shouldn't (economically) prevent them from doing so either - a world with 50 million educated engineers is better than a world with 50 million people who can't read.

Australians (and Americans) don't lose jobs to immigrants because of migration. They lose jobs to them because the other person is better at doing the job, despite the inherent advantages they have in language and culture.

I work with immigrant engineering workers on a regular basis. These guys wern't born in the US, their families didn't speak english natively, they didn't grow up in this country - if these guys can do a job in a foriegn (to them) language, in a foreign culture, and to it better than a native.... whose fault is that? Getting (and keeping) a job is a competitive effort. I'd much rather see someone lose because the other person is better at the job than see someone lose because they were born in the wrong spot or have the wrong skin color.

And, at least in America, immigration is GOOD. Immigration lets us get young people to help fix our demographics problem. The best way to pay for all these damned baby boomers is to let a whole bunch of 20-something, educated immigrants into the country to pay taxes to support them (instead of letting them work in India where we don't get the money for our social system.)

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paintball

Re:No Southpark here. by BVis · 2006-01-10 01:39 · Score: 3, Insightful

They lose jobs to them because the other person is better at doing the job, despite the inherent advantages they have in language and culture.
At the risk of sounding prejudiced, it should be noted that one of the reasons people lose jobs to immigrants (such as in this story) because frequently the immigrants (or H1-B visa holders) are willing to accept a salary significantly lower than a native worker. IMHO it's not about who's good, it's about who's cheap. (Or who's the "better value".)

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Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

The US and AU are very similar by Alan+Cox · 2006-01-10 00:20 · Score: 4, Insightful

In both cases the people doing the complaining are themselves almost all immigrants, they just got there a bit earlier.

Re:The US and AU are very similar by Richard+Steiner · 2006-01-10 04:08 · Score: 3, Insightful

Assuming a single point of human origin, 99.9999% of the human population on this planet has an immigrant at some point in their history.

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Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.

Re:So .. leave Australia. I did. by drsmithy · 2006-01-10 01:58 · Score: 2, Insightful

I can't stand the 'lifestyle trap' that Australians think they have a God-given right to. Australia never, ever belonged to whitey.

Nice to see your racist colours shining through.

To my Australian compatriates, I say, get the hell out of town and live a little .. your lifestyle is the problem. The world needs you to leave.

Huh ? One of the big problems in Australia is there are _too many_ skilled people leaving the country because the wages are relatively low and taxation is relatively high.

there are starving college phds by circletimessquare · 2006-01-10 06:05 · Score: 2

with degrees in french poetry

no one needs to get paid to understand that

meanwhile, there are kids still in high school/ college making hundreds of thousands because they wrote a killer app everyone wants

the difference? supply and demand

you will get paid what the market needs, and if there is another company competing for your skills, they will try to steal you by paying you more, or you can go off on your own and start your own damn company if your skills are so hot

if no one needs your skills, your existing employer will fire you or pay you less

is that right? is that wrong? it doesn't matter, it just IS, there's no way around it, nor should you even try to understand a way around it, if you understand how the economy works, ther is no superior way of alloting pay for performance

your example of a company paying people less money to do the same job doesn't have any meaning: either you have marketable skills, and you are well paid, or you don't. if you pay some guy $10 in india for what you did for $100: the rules of supply and demand still hold: you got paid $100 because less and less kids in the west major in computers. but meanwhile, thousands of indians with your skills, and no need to deal with the american real estate market, can do what you do for less $. so the company does the OBVIOUS INESCAPABLE thing.

this is a constant rule of life: supply, and demand

try to understand it

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intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it

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