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A Look Back at Making Mario 64

Posted by Zonk on from the letsa-go dept.

Press the Buttons has commentary on a short, interesting piece at the Miyamoto Shrine site. There, they look back at the making of Mario 64. From the article: "Possibly the most important part of Mario 64 was making sure Mario was easy to control. Before any of the levels had been created Mr. Miyamoto had Mario running around and picking up objects in a small 'garden' which he uses in all his games to test gameplay elements. 'Alot of the animation was actually in there before any of the game' explains Goddard. 'The Mario that he had running around basically looked the same as he did in the final version. Mario's movement is based on good physics, but you have bits on top that you plug in so you can do things you shouldn't be able to do. They spent a lot of time working on the swimming, it's harder than running to get the feeling right, they didn't want you to avoid the water, the wanted to make it an advantage and fun to dive in.'"

43 comments

  1. Most important part by Threni · · Score: 3, Funny

    Surely the most important part was making it impossible to know where the bloody was going to swivel around to next, from pointing at the back of his head to looking behind him.

    1. Re:Most important part by NonSequor · · Score: 1

      It was straightforward enough for me. Just push the stick in the direction you want to go and if the camera changes change the direction you're pushing. Of course I still needed to change camera modes to cross narrow paths.

      --
      My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
    2. Re:Most important part by GigsVT · · Score: 1

      GTA San Andreas apparently used Mario 64 a a role model for how to make a good camera system.

      I just love the cinematic thrill of driving in one direction and looking behind me after doing a sharp turn. Really gives the game that added touch.

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
    3. Re:Most important part by DoktorSeven · · Score: 1

      The problem was that there was no way to *anticipate* the camera's movement. Apparently depending on some random variable, and adding in the Evil Bit just for that extra touch of evil, the camera would wildly swing over one direction *just before* you make a critical jump while running along, making it impossible to stop your jump quickly enough, and sending you down to your demise or at least all the way to the bottom of the level.

      It's so damn frustrating. The roaming camera is never where you want it to be (and the positioning controls move it in large increments, none of which are the optimal view for what you need) and the Behind Mario's Head cam is way too low and close, so you mostly get to see the back of Mario's head, not where you need to go.

      Plus the controls are way too touchy (I cannot figure out for the life of me why developers use only about the first 50-75% of an analog stick's range so that you have to barely touch the controller to get the "slow" speed) and the game is super-repetitive (same level over and over again for stars). I think the attraction of a nice-looking (at the time) 3D Mario game, as most good-looking yet horrible gameplay games do today, make people overlook crap controls and gameplay just to play something pretty.

      (Happens with movies, too; how many people go see the latest special effects-filled movie that has a terrible plot and/or acting yet praise the movie afterwards because "stuff blowed up real good", or similar?)

      --
      This is a sig. Deal with it.
    4. Re:Most important part by BenjyD · · Score: 1

      In my opinion, Mario Sunshine was a better game than Mario 64: more variety and better levels. But then I played them in reverse order: I only played Mario 64 DS last year.

      That said, 64(DS) is still a fantastic game. The basic gameplay is fun and there is a very good balance between challenge and reward. It also has a very strong "just one more star" effect that kept me playing. It reuses the same levels, but it does so many different clever things with them that it doesn't matter. I often get bored of games quite quickly, but 64 kept me addicted all the way through.

    5. Re:Most important part by AcidLacedPenguiN · · Score: 1

      I never really felt like the controls were difficult, or the camera hated me. This is why I think Mario 64 is one of the best 3D platformers. I didn't find the levels repetitive because even though you did the same level over and over, each mission was very much unique and was often seperated into its own part of the environment. Unfortunately I can't expect you to change your opinion based on my opinion, so I guess as they say, to each his/her own:D

      --
      disclaimer: I've been known to store numbers in my ass for which to dig out when quantities are required.
  2. Mario 64 Completion in 16 minutes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6493722340 610946105

    1. Re:Mario 64 Completion in 16 minutes by Parham · · Score: 1

      There's a direct link to that video on the original site with a link to the torrent for it for those of you that want to save it.

  3. Cameras Still Don't Work by MBCook · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I loved that game, still do. It is right up there with Super Mario World as one of the best games ever made, bar none.

    I think it is a bit sad we still don't have the camera right in most games. You would think we would by now, but we don't. I just finished Shadow of the Colossus (great game), but there are real camera problems.

    When you are fighting a Colossus and there is lots of room, the camera works very well most of the time (like when you are climbing on their back). But as soon as you walk around a confined space or fight a colossus in a small room, the camera is a MAJOR pain and caused me to get motion sickness very quick (I'm susceptable to that). And in other situations (like on the final colossus when you are climbing on his hand) the camera doesn't work well even though you are in a big space (the camera has a hard time figuring out which side of his hand to show you) and this makes it hard to see what you are doing.

    The biggest problem with all these is that they try to fit the camera into the world. The camera shouldn't model a phyical camera that can't be inside a wall, it is supposed to show a "mind's eye" view that doesn't have those limitations. Imagine if they tried to shoot sitcoms in real rooms instead of rooms missing one wall. It would be a disaster.

    Yet in SotC and many other games, the camera must "obey" the world and can not be "in" a wall. Why not let the camera go there and make the wall invisible? If I am pivoting the camera to try to get a sense of where I am, having it suddenly run into the wall my back is up against and stop is very disconcerting. It takes you right out of the expiriance. There you are, about to fight a giant monster, up against a wall, and the only view you can get is that of yourself and that wall because the camera can't show you the oposite view.

    It was a great game, but most camera systems still suck. The only games that don't really have problems are fixed camera games (Tycoon games, Warcraft III, first person shooters, driving games, etc). I haven't seen a 3D platformer yet that has a "perfect" camera system. They all have problems.

    But they all have the same problems that Mario 64 had 10 years ago. 10 years ago. Loot at how far we've come in other respects (graphics being the obvious example), yet we can't fix the camera system.

    Great game though. It is a Shakespere or Dickens or Hemminway of video games. Not in story (very generic), but in getting everything right (pacing, little extras, challenge, presentation, etc).

    --
    Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
    1. Re:Cameras Still Don't Work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First of all, excellent final comment; very few people are content to grade games on the things they DO do, rather than the things that movies or books do differently. Big kudos!

      Second, I can maybe shed SOME light on the camera problem. There are quite a few games that DO pass the camera into the walls; they just ghost the wall or model or whatever is obstructing the view, i.e. make it transparent. This works very nicely.

      At first. But then, when you hide your secret items behind walls, or enemies hide out in small caves, etc etc, all of a sudden the player can (and will) use the camera to cheat. The camera MUST be aware of its surroundings in order to function properly! However, restricting its surroundings to the interior space of the level may not be the best of ideas, and it can certainly be an artistic limitation (look what CG has let David Fincher do in Fight Club and Panic Room).

      The other possible issue here is that the primary system of video game feedback is visual. The display matters a LOT, and our most ubiquitous visual language is that of film and television, where, with the exception of CG-aided shots, the camera obeys a series of strict rules that help us orient ourselves as viewers within the same worldspace as the characters or objects we are watching. I think it could be disorienting to have the camera placed outside of the same world that the character relates to.

      Anyways, I'm not really disagreeing with your post, it is one of the most clear and thoughtful posts on here in a long time! Just thought I'd add some of my own thoughts, I hope they didn't muddy things up too much.

    2. Re:Cameras Still Don't Work by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      At first. But then, when you hide your secret items behind walls, or enemies hide out in small caves, etc etc, all of a sudden the player can (and will) use the camera to cheat.

      Just trace four lines back from the things the player can see, make a "box" and if anything they're not supposed to be able to see right now is in the box, make sure you don't render it.

      Alternatively, figure out what the player SHOULD be able to see, and if they can't, don't draw it.

      I know this is a lot harder than just saying it but there are certainly ways to handle this.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:Cameras Still Don't Work by david.given · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I have to say that I didn't like Mario 64 very much --- that kind of collect-all-the-tokens, do-every-level-500-times adventure bores me stiff. But I agree with you completely about cameras; most of them suck.

      (I was once playing Banjo and Kazooie (another game I tired of very quickly) and died because I fell down one side of a wall and the camera fell down the other side and couldn't get back to me. I could hear that I was being eaten by something, but couldn't tell what.)

      The best camera work I've ever seen was in, surprise surprise, Ocarina of Time. It just felt natural most of the time, even doing things like panning up when you approached an edge so that you could see over. Interestingly, the camera in Wind Waker wasn't as good, for reasons I can't quite put my finger on; I found it annoying me in ways that it didn't in Ocarina.

    4. Re:Cameras Still Don't Work by MBCook · · Score: 1
      Thanks for the comment. I know my "invisible wall" comment was a little simplistic, but it seems to me that it would work well with a little forethought. You don't need EVERY wall to be that way, just some. For example in Shadow of the Colossus you fight a bull like Colossus in this little room like area with four pillars set in alcoves with flames on top that are integral to the fight. You have to keep going up and climbing on these things as you figure out what to do. So you end up near the wall, but you want to be able to see the colossus. That means that you need have the camera "behind the wall". Would it be that hard to mark just those few walls as "camera can move through these" fixing the problem in that small space?

      There is another colossus that is like a sand-worm. There are a few places in the giant chamber where you fight him with large bits of rock that protrude up for you to stand by where the boss can't get you (he is FAST). The camera kept running into those rocks for me. But there was nothing IN them. They were just a "safe zone". But you get up close to one and it is almost impossible to get a good view of the colossus because the camera can't go "in" them. Marking them "camera can go in here" would fix that.

      You can fix the "look for hidden things" problem by simply not drawing anything behind the wall (including the secret stuff) when the camera is behind the wall. And some games (SotC for example) don't have that problem at all.

      The hand problem (and similar things occur with other bosses) may be harder. In some cases, simply not drawing what is behind the player would work rather well (see through walls, but if you back your back up to one to try to see inside, nothing is drawn there), but in other cases that might not work well at all. it is a tough problem.

      Yes, games get it right (MGS, but it uses a fixed position camera most of the time to avoid the problem). But for every one of those, there are 100 that get it wrong and that is what annoys me.

      PS: I'm still annoyed that I can't seem to play a SINGLE GAME where the hero's sword or hair or something seems to cut through their body as they walk or in pre-scripted scenes. That has got to be fixable for a standard walk cycle or cut scene. When they are climbing around on a monster, there may be problems. But when walking on flat ground? A true fix to this would be complex involving a good physics simulation, and maybe we'll get that soon.

      --
      Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
    5. Re:Cameras Still Don't Work by MBCook · · Score: 2, Interesting
      That kind of collecting is a matter of taste. I enjoyed Banjo-Kazooie too. But if the games were released today, I don't think I would go collecting all 120 stars. But back then there was nothing else like it anywhere so each star was a totally fresh and new experience.

      I've had things like what you mention with Banjo-Kazooie happen too, and it is almost funny some times (depends on how critical it is that you stay alive then). I must say that while I've played all the Zelda games, I don't remember the camera system in any of them (except that they use Z-Targeting). I guess that means they had an excellent camera system (otherwise I would remember them being a pain).

      Actually, I do remember one thing. In small rooms, the Zelda camera systems would lock your view from one or two points (almost like from security cameras) to avoid many of the problems that I've mentioned with the camera "running into things". Most areas were easily large enough to not run into any problem, which is probably a testament to good level design more than anything else.

      --
      Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
    6. Re:Cameras Still Don't Work by skyman8081 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In OoT, what they did for a lot of rooms was that the camera was locked to a specific point, and then used a 2D pre-rendered bckdrop, and put the characters, pots, chests, cows, and doors over it.

      Very clever stuff.

      --
      Two Roommates and a Boyfriend, updates Monday, Wednesday, and Friday
    7. Re:Cameras Still Don't Work by -kertrats- · · Score: 1

      Ratchet and Clank 3: Up Your Arsenal had about the perfect camera. I never had a single problem with it my entire way through the game. As an aside, I really tried to like Shadow of the Colossus, but between the horrible camera and the overzealous graphics (causing enormously distracting issues and choppy framerates that could have been solved with the excess power of the next generation of systems and some good antialiasing, which i'm sure they just didnt have the processing power to incorporate. It's too bad that they rushed it to this generation.

      --
      The Braying and Neighing of Barnyard Animals Follows.
    8. Re:Cameras Still Don't Work by MBCook · · Score: 1
      It was an AMAZING game.

      That said, I agree. I think they should have waited and put it on the PS3. The colossi would have looked better (they look great now but...), and more importantly the environment would have looked better. A larger draw distance would have helped, but the thing that is really needed are better texture filtering (ansitropic would have fixed it some), more textures (the basic ground texture is repeated WAY too much), and a higher poly count would help. The frame-rate issue was sad. The whole game looks kinda muted in colors and muddy. Things aren't too sharp.

      I hope they re-release it for the PS3. It really needs it.

      It was an excellent game, but the graphical flaws were enough that they were rather distracting.

      --
      Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
    9. Re:Cameras Still Don't Work by jackbird · · Score: 1

      One of the primary ways to handle this, BSP trees, are completely broken by going inside the walls. Also, most rendering engines can't cut up the triangles that make up the model, so you get glitchy, fragmented geometry. And tracing rays is still generally outside the capability of realtime systems.

    10. Re:Cameras Still Don't Work by Corbu+Mulak · · Score: 1

      I'm actually playing BK right now! For the 100th time...

      Collecting everything in BK seemed easier to me than Mario 64. I never did get all 120 stars in that, and then I lost the game and never replaced it (as well as a few other favorites such as Goldeneye and Donkey Kong Country 1).

    11. Re:Cameras Still Don't Work by Breakfast+Pants · · Score: 1

      Tracing rays for a simple hits based test is outside the capability of realtime systems? I don't think so.

      --

      --

      WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
    12. Re:Cameras Still Don't Work by jackbird · · Score: 1

      Not so simple. GP's estimate of 4 rays only works if everything is convex and boxy. For an arbitrary mesh, you'll need a lot more rays.

  4. "6 years after its release..." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
    The simple fact that now, 6 years after it's release, the game is still leaps and bounds above it's nearest rival makes you wonder what exactly the 15 man Mario 64 development team were doing differently.


    6 years after 1996 makes... 2002. This is four years old.

  5. I don't understand... by Kazzahdrane · · Score: 2, Funny

    This is a story on Slashdot with the Nintendo logo proudly displayed on the main page...and yet it isn't an article about journalists guessing how the Revolution controller might possibly perhaps be used, or how it might possibly perhaps change the face of gaming simply by existing.

    Is this one of the signs of the Apocalypse?

    1. Re:I don't understand... by Gogo0 · · Score: 1

      I think that the real sign of the apocalypse is that there are no Xbox 2 articles today.

    2. Re:I don't understand... by Kazzahdrane · · Score: 1

      Whoever modded this Flamebait...who exactly was my post flaming? I take it you must be a journalist who's written a 3-page piece about the Revolution controller based on heresay and your imagination, and made it sound like you've been the future and are back to report on what you saw.

      Sheesh, I was just trying to make an amusing comment. I guess I failed but if you don't like it at least mod it down sensibly, Overrated perhaps. Flamebait???

    3. Re:I don't understand... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I honestly don't understand why people keep modding posts like the parent funny. Sometimes I think they just generate these things by form:

      I'm confused because this is a (positive)/(negative)/(informed) article about (Microsoft/Sony)/(Apple/Nintendo/Google)/(Video Game Violence/Linux/The Revolution). Surely this is a sign of (the second coming/armageddon/the end times/ragnarok/CowboyNeal losing it).

      Broad generalization damage! Return fire!

  6. Awesome by Sv-Manowar · · Score: 1

    It's good to see developers taking the time to explain stuff like this, kinda like the dude who made de_dust writing in depth about it's construction on his blog. It gives you a more indepth view into the world of game designers and what they create.

    --
    Business Voyeur
  7. Needed some more free-play options by Team+Zissou · · Score: 1

    Mario64 is without a dought my favourite game. The magnitude of the jump between games of the 16bit era and Mario64 on the Nintendo64 has never been matched in my experience.

    The only thing I feel is lacking in repeat play throughs is more options for free-play. Flying around bob-omb battlefield or riding the koopa shell up the mountain is some of the most enjoyable gaming available, however apart from several of the earlier levels it seems that the development guys simply ran out of time to include more of it.

    As a side note, does anyone else want to venture their favourite fre-play moments in Mario64?

  8. We can only hope... by Dr.+Eggman · · Score: 1

    ...That the same kind of experimenting is going on around the development of Mario 128 or whatever it's become.

    --
    Demented But Determined.
  9. Hell yea! by wilgibson · · Score: 1
    Hiroshi Yamauchi said at the show "I don't mean to brag, but when this game is finished I believe it will be our best ever."

    And then The Legend of Zelda: The Ocarina of Time came out. Seriously though I loved playing Mario 64. I don't have an N64 anymore, but when I bought my DS I made sure to get one with a free copy of Mario 64 DS. It's still hella fun.
  10. I thought only Metroid fanatics did this shit by wilgibson · · Score: 1

    So, I'm watching the video... OMG HAX!!! That is some really wicked shit! I thought the Metroid speed runs on http://www.metroid2002.com/ where crazy but this stuff is insane.

    1. Re:I thought only Metroid fanatics did this shit by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      That video is also "tool assisted," meaning that they used an emulator and save states and reloaded them to get the fastest time possible.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
  11. You mean FF7 by tepples · · Score: 1

    [Parts of Ocarina had] a 2D pre-rendered bckdrop, and put the characters, pots, chests, cows, and doors over it.

    In other words, Final Fantasy VII rendering.

    1. Re:You mean FF7 by fredrikj · · Score: 1

      A better term is "fixed 3D" rendering.

    2. Re:You mean FF7 by cortana · · Score: 1

      Is it possible to mention anything on this forum without having someone else jump in and say 'xxx did it first!'? :)

  12. How do they do it? by Hitto · · Score: 1

    How do they bypass the "you don't have enough stars for this door" bullshit?
    I don't think I was able to unlock the final bowser door before at least 75 stars... And there's no sign of OMGWTFHAX in the vid.

    1. Re:How do they do it? by 88NoSoup4U88 · · Score: 1
      And there's no sign of OMGWTFHAX in the vid.

      There is not? Pay close attention to the few bugs they exploit.

      For example, the first bug he exploits is with the little bunny rabbit: He holds onto the rabbit (instead of grabbing the star) once he catches it and is able to go through the next two doors, that he'd normally wouldn't be able to.

      Now onto your bypassing of the important doors at the end: Notice how he does the backwards-sliding-on-his-bum thing: Doing that enabled him to just zoof through there without needing the proper requirements.

      All in all, besides the few bugs this guy exploits, it's a very nice accomplishment (definitely if you see him run like a madman through levels which used to take me -alot- of time and -alot- of frustration.

      I really like seeing speedruns like this who 'abuse' the gamemechanics (combined with mad skillz): One of the disadvantages of more proper quality control these days is that most of the holes that can be abused, are plugged: One example of this is a "speedrun" around for Halflife 2... Lasting 3 (three!) hours. Hardly a speedrun.

    2. Re:How do they do it? by Breakfast+Pants · · Score: 1

      That Ralph Koster quote doesn't quite cover waterslides.

      --

      --

      WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
  13. Software patents may have harmed Mario 64 by MilenCent · · Score: 2, Informative

    From the article:

    The camera became quite a problem for Takumi Kawagoe who was working on the Lakitu cam, Goddard recalls: "suddenly, halfway through the project, one of the people from downstairs came up and said 'Do you realise Sega has patent on being able to switch camera views?'" The team were devastated. "Half the patents that come out are for techniques people have used for years" says Goddard. "The software patents just don't work."

    I don't really have anything more to add to that, just wanted to point it out....

    (Yeah, and probably someone will reply and say, "But the other half of the time software patents ARE good!" Why you gotta be ignorant your whole life?)

  14. watched it again... by Hitto · · Score: 0, Troll

    You're right, I'm either blind, or a dense moron.
    *ahem* On an unrelated note, those braille keyboards really kick ass, you know? :)

  15. We've developed a prior art instinct by tepples · · Score: 1

    Is it possible to mention anything on this forum without having someone else jump in and say 'xxx did it first!'? :)

    No ;-) It's an instinct that many Slashdot users have, which was honed in "let's find the prior art" comments to stories about dumb patents.

    1. Re:We've developed a prior art instinct by cortana · · Score: 1

      True, that. Which reminds me... surely Alone in the Dark made use of this camera perspective in 1992--several years before FF7. ;)