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Meetings are Bad For You

19061969 writes "Though this is obvious to most of us, your PHB's might benefit from knowing that meetings are bad for you. Two psychologists have found evidence that the number of and the time spent in meetings has a detrimental effect on mood. "...a general relationship between meeting load and the employee's level of fatigue and subjective workload was found", write the authors after conducting a diary study. Perhaps we should be more understanding with our moody bosses?"

69 of 283 comments (clear)

  1. Memo from your PHB by Tx · · Score: 5, Funny

    Memo from your PHB

    We need to have a meeting to discuss these findings!

    --
    Oh no... it's the future.
    1. Re:Memo from your PHB by DuctTape · · Score: 4, Funny
      ... after you turn in your TPS report. You got the memo on that, right?

      DT

      --
      Is this thing on? Hello?
    2. Re:Memo from your PHB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny
      Agenda:
      1. Mad dash to grab the last available seat.
      2. Fiddle with starfish phone to find status of people conferencing in.
      3. Figure out how to get slide projector to work.
      4. Shoo away the person at the door looking for the sales meeting, after a brief standoff.
      5. Show PowerPoint slides starting with new org chart
      6. Ask if everyone can read the slides. "Well, maybe you can move up."
      7. Someone asks a tough question. After a quick deflection fails: "Let's take that offline".
    3. Re:Memo from your PHB by witcomb · · Score: 2, Funny
      We need to have a meeting to discuss these findings!
      Just reading that post raised my stress levels. Whoever modded that up as funny should be sentenced to death by meeting.
  2. Well, no freakin' kidding! by w.p.richardson · · Score: 4, Funny
    More meetings = less time to do real work = perception (reality) of more stress!

    In other news, the sky is blue.

    --

    Curb CO2 emissions: Kill yourself today!

    1. Re:Well, no freakin' kidding! by Billosaur · · Score: 4, Insightful
      More meetings = less time to do real work

      I have found that one meeting a week is sufficient; I tell people where I'm at on what I'm working, what my schedule looks like, and to remind them to provide me with concise details for any projects they may have upcoming. Past that, the odd development meeting where I might have to collaborate with someone, but the fact is you should only ever really have to have one meeting to determine who does what, and then actually give them the time to do it.

      --
      GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
    2. Re:Well, no freakin' kidding! by teslar · · Score: 4, Funny
      In other news, the sky is blue.

      Looks grey from where I'm sitting. We should have a meeting to discuss this.
  3. Yeeeaaaahh... no. by lewp · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Perhaps we should be more understanding with our moody bosses?"

    Perhaps not. Most meetings are scheduled by said moody bosses because they can't be bothered to read their email or meet one on one with the people who are actually getting work done. Sure, they're busy otherwise, but most of the reason they're busy is because of this meeting culture that equates sitting around a table talking about what you're going to have your minions do (as soon as they get out of the meetings you force them into) with getting code written and products shipped.

    The main reason I hate meetings so much is because I get the impression that the only people getting anything out of them are the ones contributing nothing useful to the project in the first place. I don't care if your job is to sit between me and your boss, if you can't keep up with a project you're a part of without dragging me away from my actual work to hand-hold you through what's going on twice a week, you're wasting my time.

    That was 90% of the meetings last place I worked, and this accounted for probably half the reason I got fed up with the place and quit before Christmas. Maybe I'm just not cut out to work somewhere that has more than a few employees, and I've never claimed to be a people person, but everybody I talked to felt much the same way, so I feel at least somewhat validated.

    Face to face contact is great, but the instances where that face to face contact's value outweighs the cost of herding a bunch of people into a conference room for a chit chat are few and far between when there are deadlines to meet, IMHO.

    --
    Game... blouses.
    1. Re:Yeeeaaaahh... no. by brunes69 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That was 90% of the meetings last place I worked, and this accounted for probably half the reason I got fed up with the place and quit before Christmas. Maybe I'm just not cut out to work somewhere that has more than a few employees, and I've never claimed to be a people person, but everybody I talked to felt much the same way, so I feel at least somewhat validated.

      Indeed, maybe you aren't. But assuming you want to join a successful company that will be around next year, you won't be able to avoid it.

      I have gone through a few start-ups and can tell you, the number of and importance of mettings is directly proportional to the number of employees at a company. When you first start out and have 4-6 engineering people working in a small office, you don't need meetings. Everyone is on the same "team", everyone knows what everyone else is doing, if you have a question you just spin your chair around and ask.

      Fast forward ahead 6 months to a year, assuming the company is a success, you now have 15-20 engineers. You are no longer within casual talking distance without shouting across the office and disturbing everyone. As well, there are at least two teams with different taksk, each having their own project leader, eahc of which reports to some kind of head-hauncho. Now, said hauncho must also report to the sales guys, the CEO, the board, deal with employee issues, overall project planning, etc. He absolutely does *not* have time to do all this, and also keep tabs on 20 other people, no matter what kind of superman he is. This is why authority is delegated to the team leads, and why there *has* to be a meeting between him and the team leads ot keep him up to speed. There are certian things that just go way faster face-to-face than via email communications, and weekly status updates are one of them, because they involve a lot of back-and-forth questioning.

      Now, assuming said company stays successful, in another few years you'll have some 50-100 engineers working on multiple teams, which not only need to report to the boss, but also interact with each other, as their projects likely overlap. Of course there has to be meetings for this as well.

  4. I don't understand by gEvil+(beta) · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'm not sure I understand the findings. I know I'm always pleased when my boss "delegates" his full workload to me at a meeting.

    --
    This guy's the limit!
    1. Re:I don't understand by dkleinsc · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A possible response to this situation:

      1. Get to know your boss's boss(es). It never hurts, and gives you some leverage over your boss.

      2. The only thing a boss like that is going to know about what you're doing (and therefor what his job is) is what you tell him you're doing. Start leaving out information that your boss is likely to be asked about in his meetings with his bosses, without being obvious about it.

      3. Eventually, due to step 2, your boss will find himself unable to answer questions on a regular basis, or have to call you in to answer questions for him. He will now be perceived as incompetant by his bosses. If the boss wants to yell at you or otherwise try to sanction you, make sure they do so in earshot of as many other people as possible, and be calm and subordinate, describing the problem as a lack of specifications on his part. This enhances your reputation, while making the boss look stupid and ineffective, the more angry he is the better.

      4. As a result of 3, assuming your boss's boss(es) are reasonably smart, they'll realize that your boss is useless, and fire him. Since you're already a known factor (step 1), you're more likely to get promoted, or worst case your boss is replaced by someone else.

      And yes, I haved used this process successfully. (My boss was called in front of the company president, was caught tongue-tied, and resigned 3 days later.)

      Some important things to keep in mind:
      1. The boss truly has to be useless for this to work.
      2. It helps if you are the acknowledged senior member of the boss's staff. That will make things easier if you get the promotion.
      3. Do not forget step 1 of this process. Otherwise your boss can just fire you.
      4. Do NOT forget step 1 of this process.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  5. God I hate Marketing by FidelCatsro · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Meetings are Bad For You"
    No shit .. having an informal conversation with someone from a marketing Department for 5 minutes is bad enough.
    Having to sit with them for an Hour as they drivel total Bullshit, is enough to give anyone a nervous breakdown

    --
    The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
    1. Re:God I hate Marketing by FidelCatsro · · Score: 4, Funny

      Come to think of it ..
      Do you think that "Meeting related stress and depression" would get me off with diminished responsibility , if i perform a killing spree.
      If so , I am going to invite the marketing department on a hunting trip ..A hunt for the ultimate Prey .. MAN

      --
      The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
    2. Re:God I hate Marketing by FidelCatsro · · Score: 2, Funny

      "While I can see the point they're trying to make"
      I think the Point they are trying to make is

      Boss : My ex-wife was a Web Developer , she ran off with my brother and half my money . SO YOU MUST PAY FOR HER SIN

      --
      The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
  6. Shooting yourself in the foot? by CoderBob · · Score: 4, Funny
    Rogelberg has delivered this insight in a talk called "Meetings and More Meetings," which he presented to a meeting at the University of Sheffield. He also does a talk called "Not Another Meeting!", which has been well received at two meetings in North Carolina.

    Am I the only one that found this whole statement funny? I would think that they would release the paper to trade magazines and such to get their findings out, rather than waste time with meetings about how meetings are bad. That sounds like shooting yourself in the foot to me.

    1. Re:Shooting yourself in the foot? by alicenextdoor · · Score: 5, Informative

      I don't know if you noticed, but the author of the Guardian piece is Marc Abrahams, editor of the Annals of Improbable Research, a publication which looks at genuine research in a mocking sort of way. They award the IgNobel Prizes for research which "cannot or should not be respeated". Abrahams books are absolutely classic.

      --
      of course, biting monkeys is not to everyone's taste - Konrad Lorenz
  7. Too few meetings can be bad too by 706GL · · Score: 4, Insightful

    While number of meetings is important, I think that spending all day, every day in your office with no idea what anyone else is doing could be just as detrimental. I go to like 3 meetings a month so it takes me forever to find out what other people are doing.

    --
    ...
  8. reminds me of a story... by gregarican · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I worked at a remote office for my previous employer. One time they flew me into their corporate headquarters to participate in a software replacement plan. I spent the better part of each day going from meeting to meeting. At the end of the last day I asked one of the people escorting me around "With all of these meetings how do y'all get any work done?" He looked at me seriously and said, "That's the idea." I went back to my remote world with even less respect for CHQ...

    1. Re:reminds me of a story... by markov_chain · · Score: 3, Funny

      I always found this part of the Tao of Programming a good way to think about bureaucracy:

      A novice asked the master: ``In the east there is a great tree-structure that men call `Corporate Headquarters'. It is bloated out of shape with vice presidents and accountants. It issues a multitude of memos, each saying `Go, Hence!' or `Go, Hither!' and nobody knows what is meant. Every year new names are put onto the branches, but all to no avail. How can such an unnatural entity be?"

      The master replied: ``You perceive this immense structure and are disturbed that it has no rational purpose. Can you not take amusement from its endless gyrations? Do you not enjoy the untroubled ease of programming beneath its sheltering branches? Why are you bothered by its uselessness?''

      --
      Tsunami -- You can't bring a good wave down!
    2. Re:reminds me of a story... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      The novice replied: "Branches fall from above and strike my head. Roots from below come up from the ground and try to strangle. The fruit the tree produces is rotten to the core. I tried to climb it once but the vulture in the branches wouldn't let me pass as I wasn't part of his species."

      *****************
      (I do like the original story though... ;) )

  9. Re:central insight by stupidfoo · · Score: 2, Funny

    Don't worry, I'm sure the study was only partially funded by federal money...

  10. Because- by Hao+Wu · · Score: 5, Funny
    There's NOTHING more important than feeling good. We learned that in the '90s.

    Something needs to be done about meetings... Perhaps more laws, counselling, medication... for the children.

    --
    I suggest you read Slashdot
  11. Balance is the key by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You need a balance of meetings.

    Key is to not invite non-Stakeholders. Certain meetings are needed for people to feel empowered to produce and cetrain meetings just make people wither on the vine. What you want to accomplish at the meeting?

  12. Don't just sit there, do something! by digitaldc · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A friend of mine told me once how badly their office was run.

    The biggest problem, in his opinion, was the number of meetings that they had in order to discuss the projects they were working on. Frustration built up among employees due to not having enough time to actually do the work, as well as the number of times that he was interrupted in the middle of doing something productive - simply to go to another pointless meeting.
    In his opinion, these meetings caused just as many problems as they tried to solve, and ironically, they would sometimes generate more meetings to discuss how far they were along in meeting their original deadlines.

    I would tell you more about it, but I have a meeting to attend.

    --
    He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
  13. True (?) Meeting Story by TFGeditor · · Score: 5, Funny

    I read in Reader's Digest many years ago about a plant manager who loathed meetings. A worker was injured on the job, which prompted a series of long "safety meetings." This propmpted the manager to post signs throughout the plant that read:

    Work Safely! Accidents cause Meetings!

    --
    Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever.
  14. Re:bollocks by dchallender · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It is arguable as to whether a lot of meetings are held for a GOOD reason.
    Bad management often leads to a plethora of needless meetings.
    I always like the approach of having meetings standing up - suitable uncomfortable, focuses minds, people soon only schedule meetings that are really required, and they are brief.

  15. Objectives. by Tethys_was_taken · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I remember reading that meetings are an ideal way to get some things done:
    1)Pool expertise from different departments
    2)"Gather" authority for cross-department tasks
    3)Get feedback and progress reports from different departments
    4)Discuss critical issues that require human interaction
    5)Criticise new products and techniques from different points of view
    6)Brainstorm

    When used properly, meetings can be powerful tools... But the ONLY reason I see meetings being used anymore is POLITICS! To palm off responsibility, blame someone else, avoid work, act important, establish power ("I called a meeting because I can"), or just generally be a waste of organizational oxygen. No wonder people hate them... The last thing most techs and researchers want is to get mired in office politics.

    A meeting conducted properly is a huge help. It can speed up things and make your goals and objectives a whole lot clearer than they ever were, but unfortunately some people just don't seem to get that.

  16. Re:bollocks by gowen · · Score: 5, Insightful
    too many meetings are bad.
    "Too many" anythings are bad.

    That's what "Too many" means...
    --
    Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
  17. Are you lonely ? Call a Meeting by COredneck · · Score: 5, Funny

    I use to have this at my old job that was posted. Some of the high-ups were not impressed.

    Are you Lonely ?

    Don't like working on your own ? Hate Making Decisions ?


    Then Call a Meeting !!!!

    YOU CAN...

    SEE people
    DRAW Flowcharts
    FEEL Important
    IMPRESS your collegues
    FORM subcommittees
    MAKE meaningless recommendations
    All on Company Time

    MEETINGS

    The pratical alternative to work.

    1. Re:Are you lonely ? Call a Meeting by Ours · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yeah, I used to work for a client who applied to just those rules.
      The guy took 45 minutes to 1 hour EVERY DAY of a 10-man team (all consultants and payed by the hour) for the purpose of making himself look useful.
      A couple of guys slept during most of it, another instant-messaged and the rest of us felt our life-force been sucked out of us, slowly.
      The meeting where 95% of the time pointless, and the guy scratched endlessly on his notepad every single word, nice and slowly (we had to speak slowly so he could note it all).

      --
      "You superiour intellect is no match for our puny weapons" - The Simpsons
  18. Things are different in sales by artificialnews.com · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I know that most people here work on the "create the product" part of industry, or so it seems, but when you're like me, meetings are a wonderful thing.

    I work in sales. The more that I can understand our products, the better of a salesman I can be. I"m not the type of person that will try to make up things because they want products to look good -- instead, I try to be as knowledgeable as I can, because from what I have seen, the more knowledgeable that the buyer sees that I am, the more trusting they are of me, and therefore more willing to buy what I am selling.

    I don't spend a large amount of my time in meetings, but at least for me, the meetings that I am a part of, each bit of information that I receive on a product ends up selling at least another few units, so they're great for me.

    --
    ArtificialNews.com will one day SAVE YOUR LIFE from evil AI!
    1. Re:Things are different in sales by acvh · · Score: 5, Funny

      A thoughtful, intelligent, insightful post.

      Therefore, you CAN'T be a salesman.

      Except for the part about liking meetings. Every sales guy I've worked with loves meetings. They want to have meetings for everything - except when they're booking my time on conference calls.

    2. Re:Things are different in sales by gstoddart · · Score: 5, Funny
      I work in sales. The more that I can understand our products, the better of a salesman I can be. I"m not the type of person that will try to make up things because they want products to look good -- instead, I try to be as knowledgeable as I can, because from what I have seen, the more knowledgeable that the buyer sees that I am, the more trusting they are of me, and therefore more willing to buy what I am selling.

      Gak! One of them has breeched the outer perimeter and is posting on Slashdot.

      Rally the forces, we must stop the incursion of salesmen onto technical forums before the damage is too great.

      I sense a great tremor in the force.
      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    3. Re:Things are different in sales by wolff000 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      OK you like meetings becuase you learn more about your product but couldn't you get even more information by simply researching and shooting a few e-mails to people. That way you don't clog everyone elses day by asking the same questions that has been answered by these people 200 times already. Now I have to go to a meeting with our sales guys about something I have already explained twice just this morning. No, I'm not being sarcastic that is exactly where I'm headed. So to all the sales guys out there that love meetings, bug off I have real work to do.

      --
      WTF?
    4. Re:Things are different in sales by geobeck · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I can understand that. As a technical writer, I need to understand a customer's product quickly and thoroughly, which means talking to engineers, operators, service technicians, etc., as well as getting my hands on the product.

      But I try to avoid large meetings with everyone at once. I much prefer private interviews with one or two people, where I can concentrate on a particular aspect of the product.

      --
      Find environmentally and socially responsible products on http://buy-right.net
    5. Re:Things are different in sales by Schraegstrichpunkt · · Score: 5, Funny
      Gak! One of them has breeched the outer perimeter and is posting on Slashdot.

      Rally the forces, we must stop the incursion of salesmen onto technical forums before the damage is too great.

      An example of two statements with no relation to each other.

    6. Re:Things are different in sales by sjwaste · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I work for a large corporation that has a lot of salespeople. What the grandparent said is absolutely true, people can tell the difference between product knowledge and bs sales tactics. The best out there know the products very well. There's no need to swindle if you can earn a client's trust by knowing what you're talking about and not making things up when you have no idea. After the sale, your salesperson is your primary contact for issues that arise, so you're going to buy from the most knowledgeable person.

      I don't work in sales, but I've had the privilege of sitting with and observing our folks that do, and it's an absolute art when done properly. I doubt I could do it, honestly.

    7. Re:Things are different in sales by Archtech · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Quite apart from the objective question of how useful a meeting is, there is an orthogonal dimension: whether a given person is temperamentally suited to meetings.

      It seems to me that extraverts (who tend to predominate in sales, marketing, and the upper strata of management) are obviously going to enjoy the atmosphere of a meeting far more than introverts (who tend to predominate in programming and other nose-to-the-metal jobs). Other things being equal, an extravert actually gains energy from being with a bunch of other people, whereas an introvert may feel her will to live gradually draining away.

      Disclaimer: this is a broad generalization, and there are plenty of exceptions - introverted sales stars, extraverted developers, etc. That actually confuses the issue even further, as the extraverted developer may be the one who enjoys meetings and can't see what the rest of the team are bellyaching about.

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    8. Re:Things are different in sales by bill_kress · · Score: 2, Insightful

      From the looks of your user number you are pretty new. For those of us who have been around a while, this is THE technical forum--even if it's not so much any more, respect the tradition.

    9. Re:Things are different in sales by ceoyoyo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There are some good salespeople out there. It always impresses me when they have some technical knowledge, and as soon as you step outside that they say "I don't know... let me put you in contact with one of our engineers."

      On the other hand, when I ask a question and they obviously don't know but make something up or change the subject or tell me I don't want to do that anyway....

    10. Re:Things are different in sales by Sierpinski · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That way you don't clog everyone elses day by asking the same questions that has been answered by these people 200 times already.

      I don't know what kind of meetings you go to, but this is exactly WHY they have sales meetings. Instead of having all those people running around making their own interpretations about the product, coming to possibly different conclusions, or getting incomplete information, then having to contact the vendor and clarify, they get them all into one room and do it all at the same time. Meet with 100 salesmen in-duh-vidually, or meet with all 100 at once, so they can hear others questions as well as their answers? Not a tough choice.

      I'm not in sales, and I'm not a giant fan of meetings, however the ones I do attend are mainly for me and my team and not a soapbox for the management. Its how they can convey team-oriented progress to us without having to meet with the 20+ of us separately and say the same thing to everyone. Fortunately the area where I work has a manager that is aware of when a meeting is not necessary, and they get cancelled or ended early often when they are not productive or when someone has more important work to do.

      Nobody asked you to like meetings. Some are helpful, some are a waste of time. Its part of the job.

  19. disturbing paragraph from article by grag · · Score: 4, Funny

    There is something disturbing about this paragraph from the article:

    Rogelberg has delivered this insight in a talk called "Meetings and More Meetings," which he presented to a meeting at the University of Sheffield. He also does a talk called "Not Another Meeting!", which has been well received at two meetings in North Carolina.

  20. Alternate meeting form by BuR4N · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Best manager I've worked for hated meetings, when a meeting was unavoidable he made us stand up during the meetings. The effect on the meeting was amazing, people got very snappy during the meeting, only discussing the core problem and was well prepared when they arrived at the meeting, since no one was thrilled of a 4 hour stand up meeting :)

    --
    http://www.intellipool.se/ - Intellipool Network Monitor
  21. Experience with meetings - waste of f***en time ! by COredneck · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In my old job, the project was split between a Colorado Springs and Gaithersburg, MD location. The big shots were located on the East Coast in G-burg. There was one particular meeting that I had to attend every two weeks. I was Assistant Lab Manager. The meeting was a video conference hosted by G-burg. It was suppose to be a simple status meeting. A few years back when the meeting started, it was simple and short until the Sr. Mgt got involved. Today, the meetings last as long as 5 hours and one thing I notice, it is usually the same few people who just go on and on.

    These "windbags" think they can impress the higher ups by spewing so mush B.S. My part takes about a minute and then I am out of there ! There are many times I sit listening to these windbags and I would like to say, "get to the point and be done !"

    Also in that group, it seems like they liked to have late Friday afternoon meetings which I of course, ignored, unfortunately to my detriment.

  22. They have a cost, but also a benefit if done right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    To play the devil's advocate, I think meetings are a cost to an organization, and with all things with a cost need to be considered carefully. However, I have found, from both sides of the fence, that small team meetings to go over what other folks are doing on the team to be helpful. I've been working in product development for some time and the 30-45 minutes spent almost always reveals something of use to other team members. Also, it makes the team stronger sitting together and talking once a week. You just can't get all the information on what is going on from an e-mail or an updated percentage on a line item. Also, knowing there is a looming meeting where you face your peers is motivational, despite what some may say (or you just don't care, in which case I would generally not be interested in just not having you around ;-)

    One helpful trick I've used is to bring something sweet to meetings and place them on the table. Sugar cancels most negative feelings. Also, let the team BS for about 5 to 10 minutes in the beginning of the meeting. A bit of a "gathering atmosphere" is also helpful and further helps build team unity.

  23. Like the URL says by denison · · Score: 2, Informative
    This is improbable research.

    The article is poking fun at the study. The author of the article is the organiser of the Ignoble Prize competition.

  24. tps by mjohnsond · · Score: 2, Funny

    What's happening? Ahhh, we have a sort of a problem here. Yeah, you apparently didn't put one of the new cover sheets on your T.P.S. report. It's just that we're putting new coversheets on all the TPS reports *before* they go out now. So if you could just remember to do that from now on, that'd be great.

  25. I enjoy meetings by Yahweh+Doesn't+Exist · · Score: 5, Insightful

    when I have meetings with my phd supervisors I usually enjoy them a lot. if you're discussing something with funny, intelligent experts who help you get things done it's not surprising it's enjoying.

    so don't blame meetings. I expect most meetings are bad for you just because most *people* are stupid, boring, selfish, ignorant, incompetent and more likely to get in your way than not.

  26. It explains a lot... by Stachybotris · · Score: 2, Informative

    At one of my former jobs, fully half of each meeting was dedicated to other meetings. We'd spend about 15 minutes recapping the last meeting, and another 30 setting the agenda for the next one! I think it may just be for the reason you cited - even though the higher-ups in the meetings were 'constantly in touch with each other', they never really seemed to know what anyone else was doing or if any progress had been made. The net result was that I was pulled away from my work for twice as long as should have been necessary and got less accomplished than should have been possible.

    Then again, I was working for the state...

  27. Re:bollocks by stinky+wizzleteats · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Meeting are held for a reason

    Most of the time, that reason is to make middle managers (whose job consists exclusively of writing memos and attending meetings) look busy. The more incapable the manager is of writing effectively and/or the more unwilling to have a record of exactly what they said, the more likely you are to have a full daily schedule of meetings.

    Now watch as I reveal the one most evil and stupid word in modern business - communication. Not simply the actual fact of doing so, but the implication that communication solves all business problems, sort of like how everyone thought communication solved all marital problems back in the 80's when it was popular to say that. Communication is a load of horse shit. There is no such thing as a communication problem. Every "communication" problem in modern business is in fact a confidence problem. The information is readily available, but 2 things block its distribution: 1 - Managers don't like to go on record. They don't reply to e-mails, for example. They lack the confidence to go on record with whatever they want to say. Here's an idea - if you don't have the balls to put your "communication" on paper with your name on it for all to see, then STFU. If you lie frequently enough that committing anything to writing hampers your ability to work, then you need to be fired. 2 - For the reasons documented above, employees have no confidence in anything managers have to say. I've never seen anything cited as a communication problem that was not actually communicated in fact. "I guess we need better communication between you/your department and me/my department." has become the polite and meaningless mea culpa for the business age.

    NO! We don't need more communication. We need to STFU and get back to work!

  28. Re:bollocks by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 3, Funny
    The Energizer Bunny died when they put his batteries in backwards and he kept coming and coming...

    *ducks*

    --
    No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
  29. Meetings as a way to expedite the project by Flying+pig · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Years ago we had a major crisis on an engineering project. The phbs decided there would be an engineering group meeting of the entire engineering department (!) every day at 4 for 2 hours to review the work being done to resolve the issue and to plan the next stages.

    At this meeting was a very old and experienced PhD who knew everything about the project. He regarded the meeting as an opportunity to display his knowledge at length, but had nothing of substance to put forward; after all, it was his design decisions that had caused the mess in the first place. Did I mention he was now a contractor and paid by the hour?

    I know nothing about the branch of engineering concerned but I did go and ask the technicians what they thought. They knew the answer perfectly well - the material of a major tubular component was completely underspecified and was leaking gas when the plant got hot. But the PhD refused to accept it.

    We didn't exactly draw straws for who would bring it up - but suffice it to say that I ended up with the short one. The result was an hour or so of listening to the worst metallurgical bullshit I have ever endured. But in the end we got our way, the components were replaced, the system started to work, the PhD was let go, (and a year later I was the engineering manager - it seems the MD had been reading the minutes).

    Proof if proof were needed that the real reason for meetings is to drive the engineers to the point at which they will risk their jobs and their credibility to find a solution that means they don't have to go to any more meetings.

    --
    Pining for the fjords
  30. Re:Experience with meetings - waste of f***en time by RedneckJack · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Also in that group, it seems like they liked to have late Friday afternoon meetings which I of course, ignored, unfortunately to my detriment.

    I worked in a group - developing marketing software for MCI back in the mid-1990's. Our manager decided to order 4 pm meetings everyday especially on Friday. These meetings lasted until 6 or 7 every night. He of course did not show up, his staff people ran the meetings. After attending a few of those meetings, I came to the conclusion they were a waste of time. I quit going to them.

    In another place I worked at, we have flex time and I took Friday afternoons off every week. I usually leave by 11 am. One time, an e-mail went out on Thursday afternoon and it mentioned that one of the corporate executives was going to visit. The meeting was scheduled for 3 pm on Friday. On top of that, we have casual Friday. We were told to "dress to impress". I blew off the meeting since I had other plans. The following week, I was called in to my manager's office and read the "riot act" for ignoring the meeting. He mentioned that we must show utmost respect to our executives and attending this meeting was important to this executive. Quite a few people were not at this meeting. It was a waste of time as mentioned by those who attended. It was basically the executive telling about all the good things he was doing for the rank and file workers.

  31. Technology and communications skills by ScentCone · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've got a productive relationship with peers/partners/co-workers (and even some big-ticket customers) that, despite years of working together, I have never met in person. We make excellent use of (get this!) the telephone. I know, it's quaint.

    But the most important thing is that we keep those calls short, and don't need to use them to convey basic information to each other because we do that all the time using e-mail, IM, and a rich portally-intranet-ish web presence.

    But the only thing that really makes those supporting technologies a viable replacement for endless facetime is decent communications skills. Being able to cogently write what's on your mind, provide a usable spreadsheet or document that illuminates the matter at hand... even being able to use IM without it decaying into a meandering social tarpit.. those things require a little bit of practice and discipline. But they buy you productive, asynchronous communication that liberates you to work on your actual job on your own schedule.

    In-person meetings are saved for when it really matters: gaining and keeping paying customers. Oh, and free food.

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  32. Video game industry meetings... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 2, Funny

    When I worked at Atari, those of use who worked on Gameboy Advance titles could keep on working during a meeting as long as we could nod our heads and look interested at the right moments. Everyone else who didn't work on a Gameboy Advance title had to leave their joysticks outside and try not to look too bored.

  33. Other things that are bad for you: by pvera · · Score: 3, Funny

    1. Changing paradygms.
    2. Drinking the kool aid at a meeting where business developers are present.
    3. Falling for the "everyone please send HR a fresh copy of your resume to update your files" ploy
    4. Trying to calm down a frantic coworker that is freaking out for a very minuscule thing without at least some caffeine courage.
    5. Drinking the last cup in the coffee urn. I can promise you this: it will taste like boiled crap.
    6. Eating that last donut from the meeting 3 days ago. The Krisky Kreme box has not moved from the coffee pot table and that one donut looks tempting as hell, but trust me: you don't want it.
    7. Come-to-Jesus meetings for a project that is not yours.
    8. Any brainstorming meeting involving your newly hired business developer, especially since you don't have a formal "business development" function.
    9. Trying to explain to a frantic coworker that mail.app is not crazy and it is not ignoring rules.
    10. Trying to explain the same coworker that classifying mail as "ham" helps the filter learn what makes a good email and avoids false positives.

    --
    Pedro
    ----
    The Insomniac Coder
  34. My personal experience by ledow · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I work in the IT field (obviously) but I work freelance. Basically, I choose who I work for, so I don't get stuck working under/alongside/above people that I don't personally like. I naturally veer away from meetings. Most meetings I've ever had were a waste of time and they were paying me a phenomenal amount of money to sit and talk, or sometimes even just sit. I don't doubt that meetings can be useful, quite often I've been keen to be involved in ones that affected me directly but been refused (yes, I've actually been politically blocked from attending a meeting with a supplier that would affect my work directly and drastically as I would be in charge of running and maintaining whatever they supplied!).

    I've had three hour meetings where the only conclusion and main focus of the chat was what colour green to place on a website background (the website, incidentally, never got off the ground). And they paid me for that time. Now, I don't mind doing stuff that people are paying me for so long as it's something that I can do (I wouldn't say I could fix something if I couldn't), however I try to avoid all meetings now with those same people because it degenerates into a waste of five or more people's time, money and effort, distracts them from the real work and doesn't actually achieve anything we couldn't do with a poll on a webpage. I could make money from sitting in a room and gabbing nonsense but I consider it a real waste of my own time and talent.

    One of the reasons that I won't work 9-5, mon-fri, for someone I don't like is that I can call things what they are if people ask. I've never sucked up to a boss in my life because I've never had one. I've had clients, whom I visit initially to determine their needs and then work for, but I avoid "meetings" at all costs.

    Meetings are generally without any sort of focus, any conclusions, any change of opinions. They usually are either explaining things that people don't need to understand ("the network is broke, we're fixing it, it'll take a day and cost us X amount of money" is a perfectly good explanation for someone who's not technically minded), letting people spread responsibility for difficult decisions (or even just a comfort blanket for those same decision-makers) and attempts at micro-managing things that those people just don't understand.

    If you have a group of colleagues who are all working on very intertwined things, they will form their own meeting either 1-1 or in small groups. They'll have to, and they'll do it a damn sight better than you organising a meeting for them all to check up with you. If you are managing people whose job you could not do yourself, stay out of their way. Maybe find them once a month or so, just to check that everything's working and that you're aware of any major problems. You hire people into a job to do that job, not to make them spend hours in a meeting explaining things they learned twenty years ago to you because you know nothing about that area.

    I find that nonsensical meetings only come about through management. Managed-meetings are rarely productive. Having said that, there is a difference between a meeting and a chat. Chat to your staff, make sure they are okay, make sure things are on track, congratulate them on a job well done but bow to their expertise. If you invite someone to a meeting, it's because they absolutely HAVE to be there. If you are having a meeting with a IT vendor and you couldn't tell the difference between two products without the salesman's help, you need your IT guy there, to tell you and the vendor exactly what you want and don't want. But then, why are you there in the first place if you don't know what you're buying?

    Meetings can be so useful in the right hands, but 99% of the really important decisions are made or can be made when those self-same people pass each other in the corridor, or pop into each other's office/cubicle/cupboard to chat. That way, there's also no problem with disturbing each other from important work (they won't chat

  35. Re:bollocks by SomebodyOutThere · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Are y'all kidding? Did you RTFA? This is the silliest kind of BS social science/business "research" possible. Whatever may be true of meetings, this "study" sure doesn't demonstrate it. Sheesh.

    --
    Everyone but you is telepathic.
  36. In Summary by timbck2 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Meetings = Bad.

    Wasting time posting to Slashdot to complain about meetings = Good.

    --
    Absurdity: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion. -- Ambrose Bierce
  37. I am glad nobody is jumping to conclusions. by houghi · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There is a difference between what is claimed in the subject Meetings are Bad For You and what is claimed in the article ... having too many meetings and spending too much time in meetings per day may have negative effects...

    A well lead meeting, kept short and on the subject, can be extremely effective. These do not have to be meetings where you book a meetingroom and order sanwiches. This can be a standup-meeting at the coffeemachine for 5-10 minutes in the morning as well. It can be sitting together around one desk, comparing notes. It can be two people calling in a third one by one to handle things and thus not taking up the time of the other people that are NOT needed for sayd problem/discussion/whatever.

    As strange as it sounds to some here, this will have a much better impact then sending a umpteenth email with ALERT! as subject and marked as high priority.
    Some people do actually pay more attention to what others have to say, even if that person is saying exactly word for word what has been mailed to them.

    As strange as it sounds, that is a given. This does not take away that meeting to schedule future meetings, so a dicussion can be held on a workgroup to form a thinktank to make a comite are good. At best they then become the equivalent of the watercooler gossip on management level (and they drink perrier).

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
  38. Re:bollocks by Kili · · Score: 3, Insightful

    One point to consider is the content of the meetings.

    I've worked at several large and small companies over the past few years, as an employee and as a contractor. One thing I've found consistent is that meetings with contractors are concise and to the point because they are paying for the contractors time. Meetings with employees only seem to drag on.

    Two things are needed for a meeting to actually be productive.
              1. A good boss/moderator to KEEP THINGS ON TOPIC!
              2. A good boss/moderator to KEEP THINGS ON TOPIC!

    If the meeting is kept on topic it will go quickly and we can all get back to work knowing the bosses new/altered expectations.

    If elemet one or two are missing we all get cranky and nothing gets done.

  39. Re:bollocks by supra · · Score: 2, Insightful

    > 1 - Managers don't like to go on record. They don't reply to e-mails, for example. They lack the confidence to go on record with whatever they want to say. Here's an idea - if you don't have the balls to put your "communication" on paper with your name on it for all to see, then STFU.

    Disdain for written communication (hard copy or e-mail) may not be due to lack of confidence. I'm not a manager but I've communicated via e-mail long enough to know that there are many "information exchange" (if you don't like the word communication) situations that don't lend themselves well to e-mail. In fact, e-mail is horrid for many situations. Think about a harrasment situation. There's more to business than black and white work.

    While I agree office politics are the primary cause for "communication problems", it's not the only issue. Not everyone in an organization things exactly the same or shares the same opinions. Coming off as a ruthless manager (especially for all to see) is a sure-fire way to get nowhere.

    --
    On a computer or under a hood.
  40. Making Presentations for Meetings by Jerky+McNaughty · · Score: 2, Informative
    As an engineer, I often have to give a presentation to middle and upper management to justify my existence at the company. (Thank you, Company, for accepting me. I love you, Company.) Often times, my manager wants to review my presentation before I give it, presumably to make sure I haven't littered it with pornography or disparaging remarks about his incompetence.

    Having your manager review your presentation is bad.

    Invariably, they will have recommendations to make. You could have spent your every waking moment working on this presentation, but that doesn't matter. They'll want to change a word here, make this boldface over here, change this color here, make this a line chart instead of a bar graph. They will want things changed. They'll want you to add tons of things which turn a simple presentation into something more like a narrative, a paper, or a book---something that someone could read without you even presenting it. Often, this has little actual affect on what's really being delivered by the presentation.

    And, invariably, they'll want to review those changes again. And, of course, you see this coming, they'll want to change things again. Sometimes they'll even change things back to the way you originally had it. This process of change, review, change, review happens continuously up until the meeting is actually given.

    What this has taught me is that it's best to hold your presentation materials until the day before the meeting, if possible, because it will dramatically reduce the amount of time allowed for the reviewer(s). Remember: The reviewer(s) are often people that have no real ability (or need) to contribute to the project that you're working on. These people exist solely to facilitate (i.e., add overhead). The less time you give them to review, the less time you'll be forced to make meaningless changes.

    The most recent presentation I gave was reviewed by at least 50% of the group to whom I was presenting, including the two VPs (presumably the people who most needed to see the presentation). They all made recommendations. So, what's the point of me giving it exactly?

    (Sigh.) I guess I'm feeling a bit demotivated today.

  41. Re:bollocks by networkBoy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Funny, I always schedule mine for the length of time I need (15, 20, 30 min) before lunch. Makes people be breif.
    -nB

    --
    whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
  42. Re:bollocks by JhohannaVH · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Would that you could get more modpoints. This is the best post I've ever read on Slashdot.

    Case in point. I went from a job where I was in meetings 8 hours a day, working another 6 hours a day to accomplish all of the tasks set in said meetings, but no PHB would recognize that. Stayed in meetings, continued working around the clock to stay on top of work. What happened? I got a bad review for being 'emotional', 'negative', and 'personality conflicts' with my teammates... who were NOT in said meetings all of the time. GO FARKING FIGURE! They promoted the drunk dude, though I had more experience, talent, and WROTE all of the policies and procedures for the entire dept. I walked the next month.

    NOW! I am in a job where I sit right next to my teammates... my boss has mobility issues, so he's in his office all day, where I can find him, and he emails us a lot. And we have *one* frickin' meeting a week. For 15 minutes. Needless to say, there are no communication issues, we work great together, and I'm PUSHING myself to stay for 40 hours a week, because we are efficient in what we do. Communication is a godsend for those that know how to do it effectively... and I think that was your point. :) Oh, and I'm only doing *one* job, not four.... and I'm happier than I've ever been. :)

    One thing I learned from all of those meetings, though... take copious notes, and follow up in email with the PHB and/or critical attendees. It will help you and THEM understand what was actually accomplished, and you have something to put in front of them when they change the requirements on you during UAT. *feh*

    --
    Sorry man... the Internet pooped on me.
  43. you hit by tacokill · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You hit the nail on the head. It's not that meetings are a waste - they aren't. It's that too many ppl schedule wasteful time in their meetings. If you can complete your objectives of the meeting in 15 minutes -- then adjourn and let ppl get back to work.

    I've sat in too many meetings that went an hour simply because they were scheduled for that long. Most of the time, the information could have been covered in 15 min or less and the meeting leader winds up "filling" the extra time with mindless bantering and/or information.

    As a project mgr, I used to go by the "say what you have to say and be done" philosophy. As such, my meetings hardly ever lasted more then 30 min. And the people on my team actively told me that this style was effective and a nice relief from the normal "schedule an hour" routine.

  44. I like the ones I go to by tompaulco · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've had my share of bad meetings in my life, to be sure. But where I work now, I have been really lucky.
    My boss is extremely hands off, recognizing that I know what I need to do and that I get it done. When we have meetings, he usually takes us to lunch and discusses things over lunch. Usually less than half the time is devoted to work topics.
    I have not yet had to go to a meeting that I felt was a time waster. The closest one so far was a meeting to discuss how we were going to prepare a response to a Request For Information.
    Many of the meetings I go to are actually presentations to customers. Sometimes I am even presenting. In these meetings, I get to meet and converse with new people, and there is usually food, which is always good with me.
    I guess the reason I don't have a problem with the meetings I end up going to is that they are not a distraction that takes me away from my work. When I go to a meeting it is because it IS my work.
    Perhaps companies ought to give you a 1 hour project slippage allowance for every one hour meeting that they require you to go to.

    --
    If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  45. And in factory work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sorry, this is too general a statement to be made from this study. Factories are another location where meetings improve mood.

    In offices, where people tend to be professionals, the staff would rather continue working (doing what they do best) than sit around in a meeting. In factories, where people are doing the same thing over and over, meetings are a wonderful break from the routine.

  46. Re:Useless meetings are bad by Peter+Desnoyers · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Another 2 reasons to have a meeting:
    • To do collaborative work. If two or three people need to agree on an interface, they can either go through a zillion iterations by email, or they can just sit down in front of a whiteboard and argue until they're done with the whole thing. I've seen design discusssions that should have been done in an afternoon take a week or more because someone flat-out refused to have a meeting about it.
    • Some things just need to be said in front of everyone else. In particular, publicly confessing your planned schedule in front of your colleagues may not be good for your soul, but it's certainly good for ensuring that it gets done.
    I'll point out that both of these are stressful activities. They're just easier in the long run than the non-meeting-based alternatives that I know of.