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Is There Still Racism in IT Hiring Practices?
noahz asks: "Today [now three days ago] in the United States marks Martin Luther King Day, remembering the birthday - and legacy - of the great civil rights leader. It's been over 40 years since his march on Washington, back when IT was still in its infancy and was exclusively a white, male field. But, how much progress has been made in the IT world? I recently had a recruiter tell me that I would have no problem finding a job in the current economy - not because I am enthusastic, well-educated and have good experience - but because I am caucasian - 'white'. This particular recruiter insisted that his years experience has led him to this conclusion - but I wonder: what the collective experience of the Slashdot readership has found?"
Racism is still prevalent. It is just a matter of degree as to how blatant.
If we don't fight for ourselves no one will.
I was hired by a dot-com at a job fair even though I had no experience. My boss later told me, he hired me because I was asian and wore glasses. So I suppose there are definitely stereotypes or racism.
We have a shop full of indians(big tech firm), and my boss pulled me to the side just today and asked me to make sure that I hired a white or a black guy for the spot that just opened up.
I plan to do just that.
So, there's racism in 2006 for you. Blacks and whites together, fighting for our jobs. BTW, we're white.
It seems a person's accent has a bigger impact. People with american (midwest, southern, whatever), Brittish, Irish, Kiwi or Aussie accent seem to have an easier time communicating with recruiters and interviewers than someone with a Chinese, Indian, or even Russian accent.
There is probably a lot more age discrimination in IT than race discrimination. Now for upper management there is a huge racial imbalance. A company might have a 50% minory staff, but often less than 10% minority management.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
...that holding an MLK Day story for 3 days before posting it is just weird.
The editors should have saved it until April 1, so that the sense of cognitive dissonance I got from viewing it was well-deserved.
CIO: White female
Academic tech: white male (me)
Media Services: black male
Network manager: white male
Server manager: black male
Programmers: two white males, one white female
Staff support: white female
Hardware: white female
Help Desk: one white female, one black male
Total: 9 white, 3 black, 7 men, 5 women.
Seems pretty balanced to me given the local population. Then again, we tend to hire people with little experience and promote from within. (CIO started as a secretary years ago, server manager began as a help desk grunt, etc.)
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
There are so few industries like IT where pure chops are the only thing that matters. I don't care if you're a friggin mold... if you can run a server you're hired. There's more than enough "backroom" positions where you can hide bad personalities etc.
Christ! My department is like the freakin UN. I have a Brit, 2 black women, a kid of some undefined ethnicity and Swedish/Puerto Rican!
*I'm the white guy!*
This
Hah! My first job out of college was tech support. And I forget how many people (women in particular) asked to be connected to a "real" technician. I even had one guy tell me he wasted his time talking to a woman.....
Genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration, which is why engineers sometimes smell really bad.
I worked with a sysadmin who happened to be African American (well, back then he was "black"). Anyway, the guy was damn smart, had a Masters, and was well respected by the user community. I've worked with and for other's of a variety of ethnicities and generally come to the conclusion that if they knew their stuff they gained respect. Now I can't speak to racism in corporate America - I'm white as a sheet - but I've seen competence and excellence overcome staff level prejudice.
Maybe the original poster jumped to conclusions. Maybe he was just a crappy worker. But, I can point out countless examples in my career where managers treat their minority employees differently because of fear of lawsuits or EEOC sanctions. Basically, when it comes to these cases, they are heavily weighted for the person lodging the claim and the company has to "prove" that there was no discrimination.
Many companies are scared shitless that they will be targeted under civil rights laws because they appeared to (but actually dont, they just hire the most qualified people who happen to be asian or white for the most part) discriminate against blacks or if they fire a black worker for doing poorly.
Our civil rights laws have brought alot of needed progress to society but they are a double-edged sword, in their current (and largely unchanged form). There is definitely a subculture of minorities out there who like to use their minority status as a crutch and leveraging tool in the workplace.
As a black man myself, my own experiences in the IT field have been rather positive. In fact, I would rank my work environments as some of the most "incident free" places I've experienced. I attribute this partly to the nature of the field itself, as it favors intelligent open-minded people. We're also mostly from newer generations and, therefore, aren't as engrained in the racist attitudes of the past.
These claims are false.
They may or may not be, but citing a government publication stating how the act is intended to work, doesn't make a definitive case.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Age tends to be an issue because to older you get, the less bullshit you are inclined to put up with from employers for shit wages. Human Resources knows this, and so they go for the young and hungery employee who doesn't have many obligations beyond party money.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Of course this is all antecdotal, but when I first got out of college, I was told by one of my interviewers (a staffing company that was hiring VMS sysops for a huge multinational) that they were being told specificially to not hire any white males for any of the entry-level positions, because the company was receiving a lot of bad publicity for not being "diverse enough".
That's the neat part about the nation's obsession with skin color, we've managed to find a way to discriminate against everybody.
There is a useful distinction if you're studying sociology or psychology. Reverse racism occurs when there are racist actions taken against the dominant social group. This has different implications and consequences than when a minority social group is the target of racism.
"Racism" can be found wherever you look for it. Of course, not hiring someone because of skin color is not necessarily racism. Racism is the believe that people of one race are intrinsically superior to people of other races, not one race not hiring a person of another race - that's discrimination.
In a free country, people are allowed to discriminate, but the government is not. Here, we have it the other way around - government is allowed to discriminate but people are not. If someone doesn't want to hire me because of my race, bfd. There are plenty of jobs, and they'll be worse off over the long haul for such narrow minded practices.
Discrimination is kept alive by people like Jesse Jackson, who otherwise would be out of a career. Discrimination is propped up by "affirmative action" laws. Want to end it? Let's get back to a government that truly has equal protection under the law.
I was with you all the way until you got to the tired old argument that "blacks are dumber than whites".
I think a more accurate view would be that people from poorer socio-economic backgrounds are less likely to end up as programmers and engineers because of the lack of educational opportunities in those areas. That would be true of poor whites, poor blacks, poor Asians, or poor Martians. The fact is that the quality of education in this country depends on ones economic class.
I think a black kid from a upper-middle class home would be more likely to excel educationally than a poor white kid who lived in poverty.
Now it may APPEAR as if blacks are less capable academically because they, on average, might be more likely to grow up in poorer homes. However, it is important to keep in mind that CORRELATION DOES NOT INDICATE CAUSALITY. Now you would think that somebody like you who is supposedly a member of the "educational elite" would realize this, but I guess even posting on Slashdot does not necessarily indicate that one has the ability to think logically (in other words, even monkeys can click on the Submit button!)
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www.moneybythenumbers.com
We're mostly caucasian and asian where I work. (Aust. Gov't. Dept.)
There's no conscious policy, but selection is based on merit, and in western society, inequal opportunity means that those with social advantages (money, role models in family and peers, contacts, home location, etc) are able to better maximise the value they offer to employers.
So racism is the wrong way to be trying to explain this, in most cases. Social inequality is the real issue; I don't feel there's been a lot of progress in that area.
My IQ was rated at about 190 when I was 12
I've compiled a list of websites that you may want to spend more time on than slashdot:
http://www.mensa.org/
http://www.cerebrals.com/
http://www.smartgroups.com/
http://www.iqsociety.org/
You may feel more at home there ^_^
*dons flaimsuit*
I've worked in IT, and because I can calculate multi-dimensional state tables in my head I can sometimes out route a router.
Give me a god damn break. If you experience a lot of friction dealing with other people in your professional life, it's because of crap like this stemming from your obviously overblown ego.
If your IQ is still 190, the chances are you aren't going to fit in... whatever your skin colour.
I hate to say it but I would guess most of the time it's not because you're black, it's because you're in technology. This describes almost every day of my life and I'm white. Take this website for example, someone makes a deep and insightful comment about quantum physics that actually advances our collective understanding, and three people will make comments that add no value but correct him on little details. "No fair, you got to be the smart guy today! That's my job!" I think it's a characteristic of the profession more than racial bias.
I would like to thank you for recognizing this and commenting on it. I also think this country has made tremendous progress over the years, but you would never know it from the way we are still continually harangued by the self-appointed spokesmen for the black community. For them, time is always frozen in 1859 or 1963, and America is always the most evil country in the world because of the way we have treated people of African descent.
I want to say this to the leftist race-baiters: The two institutions that did the most to eradicate slavery from the face of the Earth were the British Royal Navy and the Union Army of the United States. Yes, white people owned slaves, but we also abolished slavery. I don't think we get enough credit for that, and I think it's about time for a heartfelt thank-you from Jesse Jackson and his ilk, and an apology for the vicious and racist rhetoric they use when talking about white pople.
Muslims kept black African slaves before the Europeans ever did, as well as during the whole period of European/American slavery, and long afterwards as well. There are still black Christians and animists who are treated as slaves or worse by their Arab Muslim masters. Yet what does the racially hyper-sensitive black-studies major in this country do ? He drops his "slave name" and takes on a Muslim name. It's crazy, a symptom of profound historical ignorance, ingratitude, and misdirected anger.
One of my ancestors was a conductor on the Underground Railroad, smuggling slaves to freedom in Canada at great personal risk to himself, and another was wounded at the Battle of Chickamauga while fighting in the Union Army to free the slaves. My grandfather was a teacher who almost lost his job during the Red Scare becuase of his outspokenness, including his views on racial equality. My mom and dad hired black people in the 60's when nobody else in their line of work would even consider it, and lost some business doing so.
I don't buy into the "white guilt" that the extreme leftists and racial grievance mongers are ramming down our throats. My family has already done its share to help black folks. I treat them as equals and expect likewise in return. Jesse Jackson, Ward Churchill, and the rest of the angry anti-American quota queens can kiss my ass.
--ccm
Too much Law; not enough Order.
"I state the issue. They then rephrase the issue, adding something not really relevant to the issue but closely related to show how smart they are. I, out of politeness, say oh that's interesting, or some other meaningless drivel to show them that I too understand basic Calculus, OSI, or traffic law, etc. I then move on to state my idea for solving the issue."
No matter how smart you are, or how smart you think you are, you are never, never so smart that you are always right and don't have to listen to others. Going into a conversation knowing the answer means you're not really there. Not only is that rude, but it means if you're wrong you'll never know it. On top of that, people generally can tell (you didn't notice that because you weren't listening, right?) and won't be very happy about it.
I'm a consultant these days. I used to be pretty cocky, like I knew how to solve problems and those business folk just weren't as smart, but even someone as dumb as me figures out, after being thrust repeatedly into unfamiliar business situations (where the business people really do understand the problem domain better than me) that I don't know everything.
You sound like an interpersonal nightmare. I'd never want to work with a sysadmin who couldn't listen to the reasons he might be wrong. I'd much rather work with someone willing to work with the team, more interested in getting us all to the common goal than telling us how smart he is.
As for the racial thing, I know it exists,but my personal experience in IT and dev in NY is that it's been a meritocracy everywhere I've worked. One of the things, really, I've loved about the work. I've been on plenty of interviews where I didn't get hired, but absent feedback from the interviewer I can't see how I could ever make a statement as to why.
You know, you sound like you're a smart guy. The funny thing about this field (again one of the things I love about it) is how many smart guys there are in it. Whenever I start thinking about how smart I am, I meet someone smarter. As smart as you may be, there are smarter people out there. Unless you have recently won your third Nobel you ought to tone it down a bit, and think very seriously about what other people may have to offer you. Try listening.
I never accepted a block, from anyone!
That of course, would be why you succeed.
I often find women in particular complaining about the "glass ceiling", and I'm boggled at the idea of anyone expecting to be promoted to the top of a company. Company founders will seek out successors who remind them of themselves, and there's nothing wrong with that. If anyone wants to lead a business, they should expect it to be a business that they themselves started.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
It happens. When doing a round of layoffs, I was once instructed (2002) by HR to select only middle-aged white males, because "they can't sue." Back in 1998, when doing a lot of hiring, I was instructed to "prefer" minorities when evaluating candidates to increase our diversity. If you think discrimination against non-minorities does not ever happen, you should get out more.
That reverse discimination card is overplayed
There is no "reverse discrimination." Discrimination is discrimination. Period.
Sarcasm and hyperbole are the final refuges for weak minds
You're story about people reacting to your idea likely has little to do with race and significantly more to do with either 1) poor management, or 2) your attitude.
;)
I'm white, I grew up on a farm, the son of a tech ed teacher. I grew up constant trying to learn the hows and whys. I wiz my way through logic tests, rebuild my own engines, remodeled my own house, solder my own electronics etc...
When I got out of the military, I was a slightly younger guy who thought I knew it all and could figure the rest out. And I ran into numerous situations like the one you described.
It actually turns out that I was just an egotistical ass hat. Cocky and arrogant coming off of my last military tour.
It took a couple years, a wife, a kid, and a hell of a lot of hard knocks, but my ego finally deflated and I find myself getting a long with most people much better.
Let's face it, no matter what their skin color, all assholes are brown on the in side
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
Flamebait or troll or not, I accuse you of flagrant exaggeration, if not outright lying. Your use of language, vocabulary, and compositional structure is self-evidently sharply below that level. As is the vocabulary and compositional quality of your other recent posts, eight of the last ten of which scored 1. Your expository and vocabulary also jarringly conflicts with your assertion of "a nearly insatiable desire to read whatever I could get my hands on."
The point of which is, don't lie on this forum. Making a knowing transgression of risking off-topic for this reply or not, I dislike letting that by, and it taints the rest of your post, the meta-moderation of which I would suggest ought consider whether the moderation points were deserved.
As an aside, also, the vast majority of IQ tests, including upper range IQ tests, are not designed to accurately test above approximately 170. Test calibration above that level is very challenging. Try and remember such tangential details the next time you fib, for better general congruence and background.
Sigh.
In inferiority complex, perhaps.
In the future, try posting without repeatedly referencing how smart you are, and how your brilliance is oppressed by vast forces opposing you. Your posts will implicitly convey deviation from the norm, if they can in fact exhibit such, without needing attempts at neon signage.
"The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those who, in times of moral crisis, preserved their neutrality." -Dante
Both of those options will allow him to leverage extreme intelligence as well as mathematical and sales aptitude. Both will get him out from the oppressive man's foot quite rapidly. With a 190 IQ, he should be able to come up with a pile of other good alternatives, too.
Honest truth here. I'm a white bastard. And you know what? I've had the exact same types of conversations The Great Oppressed Black Genius described with people when I identify an issue. It's not a racial thing. It's an "I have a brain and that is intimidating to people that want to remain necessary and keep their job" thing.
*sigh* 190 IQ multi-linguil person works as a system admin where apparently people discriminate against him. I just don't buy the whole post. I think it's BS. None of the pieces fit together. One of our VPs is a black man and he is sharp as a whip. The company offered him a CTO position and he turned it down because he had a better offer on the table from elsewhere. He was really good and everyone respected him and though he was very bright, I bet he was not even close to an IQ of 190.
Well, anyway...
Nonsense! It's a great measure of how good a person is at doing IQ tests...
http://outcampaign.org/
Umm, childhood IQ tests can't test above 180, furthermore if your IQ is 190 you might want to get hold of Mensa and the Guinness Book of Records because that would make you the brightest man in the world.
I put your current IQ at about 110 - a typical pissed-off BOFH.
110 eh? About the size of your disk apace allotment in kilo-, no, just regular bytes.
>clickity clickity<
May the Maths Be with you!
I met a white guy once whose name was Darius. About my age (early 30s now). His dad was a history buff and named him after the Persian king. He worked in IT.
... I'd say it still happens, yeah.
Once, for his job, he had to go be a liason for a brief period at another company. As it happened, this other company was one where he had applied for a job but hadn't gotten an interview the previous year. He liked the job he ended up getting, so he had no hard feelings.
Somehow the fact that he had applied at this other company came up when he was on-site. The person he was working with was actually one of the people who had reviewed his resume. "Oh, yeah, I remember you!" he said. "See, we thought you were black because of your name. Ha ha! If we had know, we probably would have given you an interview."
It's only one data point, but
jf
As a white 'caucasian' sixteen year old white male I started working for a small whitebox OEM company. My responsibilities included building the systems, installing Windows, performing the burn-in, and troubleshooting. When I came to work at the company I had a pretty big head on my shoulders. I thought there was nothing that was unsolvable for me to tackle and I could get to a solution in half the time it took other technicians. Until... I was handed a network issue at one of the client sites. I tried for two weeks to solve the issue exhausting everything solution I could think of. It finally came down to making it work or for the company pulling out of the deal so they sent me one day to meet-up with one of the head field technicians -- Dwight.
Dwight was an older blackman and he worked (and still does) in one mode, slow. When we began working together it fustrated me so much because he would take his (and my) precious time doing EVERYTHING. Even waiting on him to click the mouse could be excruciatingly painful for me a times. So let me say that patience is greatest value this man taught me, but more importantly he taught me how to think out problems before acting. Dwight has a determination to exhaust all possibilities before putting a practical and definitive solution into motion. Whereas most technicians, programmers, and just people in general will go into a situation with all their guns blazing using trail-and-error attacks until they get the appropriate response Dwight will methodically plan out his attack until he is sure it is going to work (for the long term).
Needless to say, in a matter of hours Dwight had the network up and going according to the client's specifications and after teaching this new pup a thing or two. This was only the beginning. Over the next two years Dwight taught me a lot about being a good technician but more importantly a good problem solver not only with computers but in life in general.
Today the values and traits Dwight taught me are still with me today as a software engineer. It has been six years since I was under his mentorship full time. Today if I had a problem in either a technical matter or a personal matter I know he is there to teach me. I have not learned as much from my peers, superiors, or college professors as much as I have from him. Besides my parents he will always be one of the greatest people who influence my life.
I know companies are out there who would not hire Dwight because of his color, age, and now he has a few medical problems which require regular care. To me this is ludicris because if he could teach some of the guys I have worked with in the past half as much as what he taught me it would be a grand investment.