US Removes Piracy Sanctions From Ukraine

An anonymous reader writes The US has restored Ukraine to their preferred trade partner status after requiring the country to crack down on piracy. The United States had also imposed 100-percent import duties on $75 million worth of Ukrainian exports since 2002." From the article: "Concern over high piracy rates prompted the Bush administration to suspend Ukraine from the program in 2001. At that time, Ukraine was the largest producer and exporter of pirated CDs and DVDs in Europe, USTR said."

Comments

$75 million in trade over three years????

[Anonymous Crowhead]

I'm surprised both of our economies didn't collapse. How could we do without the Ukraine?

Re:$75 million in trade over three years????

[brian1078]

Without the Ukraine, the company I work for wouldn't be outsourcing my job. Well, at least to the Ukraine.

Re:$75 million in trade over three years????

[rts008]

Yeah, but think of how many $5 dvd's that $75M bought!

Arrghhh!

Re:$75 million in trade over three years????

[Anonymous Coward]

It came close. I guess it has been the main reason behind the increasing number of plant closing and mass layoffs in all sectors. With the Ukraine on our side again, we'll certainly see another boom by the end of the year.

I had no idea . . .

[Ph33r th3 g(O)at]

. . . Ukraine even had a significant maritime presence, much less was engaged in piracy.

Re:I had no idea . . .

[ScriptedReplay]

Yer better off not meetin'em Ukrainian pirates. It's the blackest of all seas they sail on, arrr ...

Re:I had no idea . . .

[Ph33r th3 g(O)at]

I would have thought it'd be the Red Sea :).

Re:I had no idea . . .

[lkl]

Actually, Odessa is a major port. Not many years ago it was even more so, when it harboured vessels with naval nuclear propulsion. Some thought that the seamen of those vessels were little different from pirates. :-)

New relationship because of the elections

[CRCulver]

The US has restored Ukraine to their preferred trade partner status after requiring the country to crack down on piracy.

More like the US has restored Ukraine after installing a puppet who, even if he doesn't solve the privacy problem, is useful to the US in other ways.

I was in Kyiv two weeks ago. The consequences of the election of Yushenko are already evident, Ukrainian young people want to align themselves so much with the West that it's suddenly all McDonalds and Coca-Cola (wasn't this bad during my first trip here four years ago). Ukrainian traditional culture is being eroded before one's eyes. This isn't the normal pace of globalisation, this is Ukraine rapidly getting the life sucked out of it by a new administration that doesn't care about its own country. Of course, the other choice would have been a Russian puppet, who would be almost as bad (but at least the Russians are fellow Orthodox). The best turn of events would be an isolationist Ukraine, but no one stepped forward asking to turn the country in that direction.

Piracy hasn't changed much in Kyiv. There are a few new places to buy media legally (in touristy locals where foreigners hangout), but most markets sell bootlegs.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[KiloByte]

The consequences of the election of Yushenko are already evident. Ukrainian traditional culture is being eroded before one's eyes.

Do you mean, 300 years of Russian occupation didn't really have any negative effects?
They have just freed themselves from a powerful, warmongering, authoritarian neighbour. Give them a chance, and forgive them the urge to find new allies with some clout.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't understand... to an anti-American like the grandparent, 300 years of Russian occupation IS "Ukranian traditional culture".

Seriously, cultures grow up, and that means they abandon all sorts of bizarre mysticism and empty ritual and learn to provide themselves with things they want. Lamenting the fact that some people's wants aren't exactly deep is not productive.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[gkuz]

Ukrainian young people want to align themselves so much with the West

Deciding this for themselves is, then, anathema to you? They are supposed to want what you want?

this is Ukraine rapidly getting the life sucked out of it by a new administration that doesn't care about its own country

Led by a president who very nearly gave his life just as a consequence of running for President, to throw off the Russian yoke -- that's how little he cares about his own country? Who speaks Ukrainian -- not Russian -- at every official function because Ukrainian is the official language. His language. A language Yanukovich doesn't even speak.

(but at least the Russians are fellow Orthodox)

Many Ukrainians are not Orthodox. Many of those that are do not belong to the Moscow Patriarchate.

Please learn some more before you go back again.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Anonymous Coward]

"Fellow Orthodox" is as maybe, but before implying any simpatico there, you should look up the history of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and how the Moscow Patriarchate basically took it over by coercion from the Patriarch of Constantinople. I've read some stats that say the "Russian Orthodox" church membership is only as large as it is because they're counting members of the vassal church in Ukraine (there are a couple of "autocephalous" churches in Ukraine as well, ie, not affiliated with Moscow, largely existing as a response to this take-over).

In the recent elections, members of the clergy of the Russian church endorsed Yushchenko's opponent, and many Ukrainian clergy spoke out about that in disgust.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[gkuz]

"Occupation"? So this is how US propaganda works -- if it worked for Baltic states with their neo-Nazi (literally!) governments, they will try to tell Ukrainians that Ukraine was "occupied" by Russia, and see if this bullshit will stick?

Bullshit? Tell that to the 7 million starved to death by Stalin. Oh wait, you can't -- they're dead.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Alex Belits]

Your whole country, and its whole "culture" didn't exist 300 years ago. STFU, N00B before accusing countries that actually have some history!

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[CRCulver]

Deciding this for themselves is, then, anathema to you? They are supposed to want what you want?

They are supposed to continue what their proud ancestors accomplished, not take the spiritual emptiness and boring homogeny of the West. What is happening now is cultural suicide. No people should be allowed to extinguish their precious diversity.

Who speaks Ukrainian -- not Russian -- at every official function because Ukrainian is the official language. His language. A language Yanukovich doesn't even speak.

Ukraine is at least a trilingual nation. That no official status was granted to Russian and Rusyn is an outrage. Ukrainian should not have been forced upon people whose lands were always Russian-speaking, and Russian shouldn't have been imposed on the West. A Belgian solution might have been found.

Many Ukrainians are not Orthodox.

Orthodoxy is the historic faith of most of Ukraine. That foreign rule imposed Catholicism on parts of the West is regrettable. At least many Uniates have returned to Orthodoxy in recent times.

Many of those that are do not belong to the Moscow Patriarchate.

Still, better to stay with fellow Orthodox than surrender to the atheism of the West.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Anonymous Coward]

Ignoring history does not make it disapear.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[KiloByte]

In one of the most fertile regions of the world, a drought would cause just a reduction of crops. Not massive starvation.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[gkuz]

Orthodoxy is the historic faith of most of Ukraine

One should be careful in using words like "historic" or "always". What faith did Volodymyr take on in 988? Is that even a meaningful question, pre-Schism? So what does "historic" mean? Or "always Russian-speaking"? What was being spoken when Kyiv was golden domes and Muscovy was a swamp?

A Belgian solution may indeed have been found. But it wasn't. The Ukrainians I talk to know they are Ukrainians. They don't want to be Poles or Belgians or Americans. Let them decide, OK? Your cultural chauvinism, saying what they are "supposed" to want, is as bad as what you deride.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[JDevers]

Tell that to the people who remember the Dustbowl in the US. I promise you, a drought severe enough and not a damned thing will grow. Plants need more than just fertile soil to grow.

Now, that having been said, I firmly believe that Stalin starved a lot of people for his own reasons.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[karuna]

To say that Ukrainian Holodomor was "merely famine" is a very loaded statement. What kind of widespread draughts or plagues were there at this time? The answer is none. It is hard to evaluate how much it was caused by inept but well-wishing policies and what part was deliberate revenge against so-called kulaks but in either way the blame solely lies to Soviet officials who seized the crops and restricted the movement of people out of affected areas. What to speak of trying to help those people with providing food by apealing for help in their own country or internationally.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[CRCulver]

Is that even a meaningful question, pre-Schism?

Yes. The split between East and West was already noticeable during the Moravian mission of Sts Cyril and Methodius decades earlier. New missionary terrains found themselves aligned to either Rome or Constantinople long before the Schism.

Or "always Russian-speaking"? What was being spoken when Kyiv was golden domes and Muscovy was a swamp?

Proto-East-Slavic. However, there are regions in Ukraine where after the split of this proto-language, only Old Russian and eventually Russian were spoken.

The Ukrainians I talk to know they are Ukrainians. They don't want to be Poles or Belgians or Americans.

Most of the Ukrainians I know don't consciously want to be Americans either. However, continuing alignment with the West would essentially make Ukrainians more Americans than anything recognisable to their forebears.

Let them decide, OK?

I'd rather let the Church and those Ukrainians proud of their culture decide. And they wouldn't decide Yushchenko. Democracy should not allow suicide, even America's founding fathers (and Lincoln) understood that.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[KiloByte]

I've had enough people murdered by Russians in my family to tell you that no, our hatred towards Russia is not a case of "sycophants". When Russian troops entered Poland on 17.IX.1939, they murdered a good part of Polish intelligentsia -- and treated everyone who had any education or property as a class enemy. Most teachers, journalists, priests, etc got wiped. Farmers who owned more land than it was needed for sustainance were disowned (and possibly imprisoned or murdered) as "kulaks", and even any workers who had any _basic_ skills were repressed. My grandfather's uncle, for example, was a mere senior factory worker, yet it was enough to be the reason for his death.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[gkuz]

I'd rather let the Church and those Ukrainians proud of their culture decide. And they wouldn't decide Yushchenko.

I think most of those who froze on the Maidan back in December of 2004 were and are proud of their culture, and they have decided. Were you there? Are you aware of the risks they took, the sacrifices they made?

Or do you subscribe to the theory that they were all bought and paid for by Soros?

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Anonymous Coward]

300 years ago -- heck, 100 years ago -- the whole world was a much darker place. Every country was a cesspool of injustice, suffering, and institutionalized lies. "History" is terrible, and still the cause of our largest problems. Morality and common decency demands that we discard the past.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[CRCulver]

I think most of those who froze on the Maidan back in December of 2004 were and are proud of their culture

Except they weren't proud of their culture, they were proud of the American culture they are adopting. How many of these people are devout Orthodox, listen to traditional music, wear appropriate clothing, and spurn Western influences? Not very many.

Are you aware of the risks they took, the sacrifices they made?

Sitting in a tent in a carnival-like atmosphere smoking a lot of pot (as the young people I know who attended were doing) knowing that nothing dangerous will happen is hardly "taking risks" and "making sacrifices".

Or do you subscribe to the theory that they were all bought and paid for by Soros?

I don't mind Soros quite as much, but there's no doubt lots of American money was involved. The Serbian activists who were brought up to Kyiv were entirely open about their sources of funding.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[JohnFluxx]

Ah, It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing. You love to be sensational and emotional without any intelligence behind it. I hope you don't live your life this way.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[gkuz]

How many of these people are devout Orthodox, listen to traditional music, wear appropriate clothing, and spurn Western influences?

Forgive me, I didn't realize I was talking to Solzhenitsyn.

What in the world is "appropriate clothing"? What is "traditional music"? Which century would you like these people to live in? If they choose to be 21st century Europeans, that's their choice, not yours.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[mi]

Aren't you forgetting the execution of the entire Polish officer's Corps by KGB? That war-crime (a real one -- not a "butt piramid") was blamed on the Germans (German-made weapons were used in executions!) for decades until Gorbachev finally admitted to it...

All neighbors have a long list of grievances against Russia, and the Russians better start asking for forgiveness (as Germany did decades ago) instead of denying the horrible past.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[tealover]

Fuck you and fuck Russia.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[martinX]

You know, there was a time when this traditional music you speak of was The Newest Sound Around. And it was probably derided by the traditionalists back then...

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[AndreySeven]

You must be joking... Stalin took the 1932 crop away from the Ukrainian people because most of the populace wanted independence from Sovie rule. why don't you get your facts straight... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[KiloByte]

Yes, Ukraine was occupied by Russia.
In fact, Poland was occupied, too -- by anything but the name, all the way until 1989/91.

Unless you somehow try to argue that "our troops are stationing in your country, they act whenever the local traitor force can't pacify people fast enough (Hungary 56, Czechoslovakia 68, etc), kids who don't cry on the news of your leader's death disappear with their entire families" means "not occupied".

Also, don't forget that Russia occupied Poland in 1772-1918, and made a strong but failed attempt to re-occupy it in 1920.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[KiloByte]

Am I forgetting it? Hell no! I just preferred to use an example from my own family over something which is well-known to everyone who attended to any but Russian schools.
My grandfather came from a numerous family -- if you count just people 1-2 degrees of relationship away, there were over 20 relatives murdered by Russians.
And this is just counting that grandfather's side. His future wife, my grandma, had 10 of 13 of her and her first husband's siblings (including her first husband himself) killed in the Warsaw Uprising. The Uprising erupted when the Red Army already had all of east-bank Warsaw and good footholds on the left side; on Stalin's order, they withdrew and waited several months, all while actively denying the brits and americans any possibility for providing air support.

Germans were enemies, but they at least didn't claim they were friends. And they later gave a lot of gestures, begging for forgiveness -- while the Russians didn't even apologize once.

And yeah, Putin retracted all of Gorbatchev's words and punishes anyone he can punish who tries not to deny Russia's past.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Anonymous Coward]

Led by a president who very nearly gave his life just as a consequence of running for President, to throw off the Russian yoke -- that's how little he cares about his own country? Who speaks Ukrainian -- not Russian -- at every official function because Ukrainian is the official language. His language. A language Yanukovich doesn't even speak.

Whatever d00d. Yushchenko is just another oligarch who hustled the US with a "Look at me - I'm a reformer" trick that Yeltsin played 10 years ago in Russia. The Ukrainian economy is actually going backwards since
U.S.-chenko was chosen.

oh, and btw- MOST Ukrainians are Orthodox (if they are any religion at all) and MOST Orthodox belong to the Moscow Patriarchate. Google it.

Have you even been to Kiev? Russian is what people speak. I've seen diaspora Ukrainians try to buy something in shops using their parents regional dialect of "Ukrainian", and had to translate. Sorry.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[pallmall1]

Except they weren't proud of their culture, they were proud of the American culture they are adopting. How many of these people are devout Orthodox, listen to traditional music, wear appropriate clothing, and spurn Western influences? Not very many.

Wow. Change the word Orthodox to Muslim and you sound just like Osama.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Anonymous Coward]

... And it's a shame that the one country very influential in the change for the better is de-evolving right before our eyes.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[heinousjay]

100 years ago, you didn't exist. The history of your country is meaningless.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[RexRhino]

Yes, that Coca-Cola and McDonalds and Rock and Roll... the young people are powerless to resist, muhahahahaha! Why, I can't think of a single reason why young people in the Ukraine would want to ally themselves with the west, not with that big friendly pal of thiers Russia looking out for them, and the years of prosperity and freedom under Soviet rule... that is, until the mind altering substances like fried potato sticks, sugar cola, and Brittany Spears warped their helpless little minds!

Its time we all stand up to thi... what is that?... Brittany? Brittany, is that you holding out an ice cold Pepsi? And you are telling me that NATO, NATO IS THE ONLY WAY TO WIN YOUR LOVE!?!?!?! BRITTANY!!! I WILL DO ANYTHING!!! JUST GIVE ME THAT McBURGER AND YOUR LOVE BRITTANY!!! BRITTANY!!!!!!!!!! BRITTANY?!?!?!?!

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Guppy06]

"They are supposed to continue what their proud ancestors accomplished,"

What, taking it up the rear from neighbors east and west?

"No people should be allowed to extinguish their precious diversity."

Who are you to decide what somebody else should or should not be allowed to do with their own lives?

"That no official status was granted to Russian and Rusyn is an outrage."

To whom, the Russians?

"Orthodoxy is the historic faith of most of Ukraine."

It's nice to know that my grandmother's family didn't count.

"That foreign rule imposed Catholicism on parts of the West is regrettable."

This is curious. You state that Catholicism was forced on the west, but do not seem to feel that the Russian language was forced on the east. Sounds like a double standard to me.

"Still, better to stay with fellow Orthodox than surrender to the atheism of the West."

So Catholicism = atheism? Or what about the atheism of the east that Lenin's Russia brought with them?

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Vraeden]

I'm just not sure this comment is accurate. I was there approx. 4 years ago and they already had McDonalds and other western businesses. Unless poster was there last year and this year to compare the increase over the last year or two, he most likely is exaggerating the influence of the new leader.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[dunkelfalke]

oh come on. that surzhik he speaks you call ukrainian? you are so anti everything that is russian that you willingly falling for people whos only election program is to be against something but with no other thoughts. most ukrainians i know, who aren't so full of it, realize that at that time both candidates were nothing other than bandits. one of them was openly a bandit, the other tries to hide it behind nationalistic speaches and tries to earn serious money on the nationalism.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Anonymous Coward]

Has it ever occured to you that we like american culture and enjoy beeing able to eat at McDonalds and drink Coca-Cola just like people in other civiliezed countries do (I don't particualry like either of those but there are also other signs of "americanization". American tourists seem to belive the world should consist of some sort of reservations with happy peasants living in small wooden cottages protected from evil modernizm (in that case I'd like to recommend Belarus just to the north).

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Anonymous Coward]

>At least many Uniates have returned to Orthodoxy in recent times.

Ironic I should see such crap writtem just as we are celebrating the 60th anniversary of a fake council of the Ukrainian Church held by the NKVD which officially abolished the Church and subjected it to Muscovite rule. Though I suppose it's just a coincident as obviously you don't shit what you're writing about.

BTW today the Church is flourishing and Ukrainians are returing to it even in reginons that have been under Muscovite rule since the 17th century.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[arivanov]

300 years of occupation my arse. 2006-1654 is 352 years.

Ukraine was having the shit beaten out of it by the Polish during the second phase of the Secession from Poland war.

It asked for protection and assistance. In fact it begged for it. Its own Duma voted unanimously to request it and it asked for it in officially in a letter. And after that as was customary spent an astronomical amount of money in graft payments to the major families in the Russian Duma to get this through.

Learn your history. Searching for who is Bogdan Hmelnitcki and what did hi do for Ukraine is a good start.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Crayon Kid]

"History" is terrible, and still the cause of our largest problems. Morality and common decency demands that we discard the past.

I hope that by "discard" you meant "forgive", not "forget". Because forgetting old mistakes makes you repeat them, as the old quote goes.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Alex Belits]

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Holodomor. This is probably the MOST controversial and un-authoritative page in the whole Wikipedia.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Crayon Kid]

Its time we all stand up to thi... what is that?... Brittany? Brittany, is that you holding out an ice cold Pepsi? And you are telling me that NATO, NATO IS THE ONLY WAY TO WIN YOUR LOVE!?!?!?! BRITTANY!!! I WILL DO ANYTHING!!! JUST GIVE ME THAT McBURGER AND YOUR LOVE BRITTANY!!! BRITTANY!!!!!!!!!! BRITTANY?!?!?!?!

Is this "Brittany" you speak of the United Kingdom? 'Cause that would make sense too, in a disturbing kind of way.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Alex Belits]

Famines were pretty common then, and situation was worsened by shitty conditions in the economy after Civil War.

As for seizing crops and redistributing them, what would YOU do when suddenly people are dying right and left because there is nothing to eat? Who do you think, ate all that "confiscated" food in the end, Stalin himself?

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, the problem with writing shit you know nothing about on internet forums is that there might actually be someone who knows the truth. The Pereyaslav Rada is considered by the Ukrainian nation as a tragic event that removed the chance for Ukraines independence until 1918, the Muscovites broke the terms of the treaty, suppressed the cossack autonomy and carried out a systematic policy of russification. Great Ukrainian leaders (the most famous of them being Ivan Mazepa) tried to get rid of the Muscovites, alas unsuccesfully.

Oh, and btw fast forward a few hundred years, the Hungarians and Czechoslovaks also asked for asked for Russian assistence.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Alex Belits]

Then how can anyone claim that something was "occupied" for three centuries? Do Americans "occupy" US? Ukraine joined Russia quite peacefuly, especially compared to the history of North America since Columbus.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Alex Belits]

1. US has military bases all over the world, including Cuba, of all places. Does it mean, US occupied the whole world?

2. Poland and Romania seem to be so concerned about freedom that they provided their prisons to CIA, for secret imprisonment and torture of "terrorism suspects". A government that cries oppression when it's beneficial for them, yet immediately does this shit when it sees an opportunity to serve a new master, is probably the greatest example of hypocrsiy that was ever developed by mankind.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Anonymous Coward]

let's not forget that Poland also attacked Russia in the war of 1918-1920 to try get a piece of it. IIRC polish forces were accross half Latvia and Lithuania at one point until driven back.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually Latvia and Lithuania aren't part of Russia and Polish didn't even get close to Russian territory. BTW it was 1919-1921 and it wasn't Poland that started the Polish-Bolshevik War but commmunist skirmisher to which Poland replied mounting a major offensive together with Ukrainian forces in early 1920.

I understand this wasn't detailed in "Short History of ACP(b)"?

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[MvD_Moscow]

Yeah right, very peacefully. Doesn't the fact that many Ukrainians decided to join the Nazi's to fight against the Soviets tell you anything? Just because American's exterminated the native American population doesn't mean Russia's stance against Ukraine is any better.

Lets not even start about the artificial famine in the 30's that created by Russia. And the present Russian government doesn't even want to apologize for their crimes.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[MvD_Moscow]

Learn some history before posting. Stalin did not eat all that food, what he did do was sell for export in order finance his industrialization program. The only way he could get the tools needed for implementing industrialization was to exchange crops for hard currency. You really don't what you are talking about do you?

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[MvD_Moscow]

They are supposed to continue what their proud ancestors accomplished, not take the spiritual emptiness and boring homogeny of the West. What is happening now is cultural suicide. No people should be allowed to extinguish their precious diversity.

And the alternative is to choose Russian stupidity and imperialism? No thanks, let us decide how we will develop. I personally would rather choose being exploited by the west than Russia. Russia can offer nothing but dark ages to the Ukraine. Russia is a dead end.

Ukraine is at least a trilingual nation. That no official status was granted to Russian and Rusyn is an outrage. Ukrainian should not have been forced upon people whose lands were always Russian-speaking, and Russian shouldn't have been imposed on the West. A Belgian solution might have been found.

Why should Russian be an official language? And whats this trash about Prussian speaking? Where was Moscow when during Kiev's Rus? First show some respect to Ukrainians in Russia, then we might consider giving Russian official recognition. Teach your stupid cops to act properly. Its not "Hahol" but Ukrainian, until this is fixed, there shouldn't even be any talk about Russian becoming an official language. Furthermore, just because a lot of people speak a particular language doesn't mean it has to be official. Almost everyone speaks English in Holland, I don't see English becoming an official language.

And stupid Russian rule is any better? You are not to decide whats good for Ukraine.

Still, better to stay with fellow Orthodox than surrender to the atheism of the West.

Whats wrong with atheism. If I don't believe in some old dude who lives in the sky (in -40C) does that make me any less Ukrainian?

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Anonymous Coward]

I think to say the entire officer corps is excessive. I think particular attention was paid to older officers who were involved in the Polish-Soviet War in 1921. I know because while my grandfathers eldest brother(a Colonel) was taken to Katyn(presumably), the second eldest was spared because he was too young to have participated. In fact the Soviet army passed through two of our villages. But we had more problems with ukrainian peasants performing horrific acts of torture and murder on our women and children instead.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Anonymous Coward]

Installing a puppet???? I really think you owe all the Ukrainians who stood up to their dictator an apology for saying that. THEY did all the work. What makes one a puppet is NOT that one cleaves to any direction or other... it is that the puppet can't say no to its master.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Alex Belits]

Any evidence with those accusations, other than your strong convictions and propaganda works?

Not that it would be logistically possible.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[ThankfulJosh]

Oh, I KNOW!!!

Isn't it awful when people are given all these new CHOICES to deal with? I, for one, hate that I have the ability to choose whether I want traditional or new things in my life. As an American, don't I have the right for someone to keep me from having the choice to experience new things?

I mean, Coca-cola and McDonald's! What kind of barbarian would subject an entire people to such horrors!?!?!

And I bet that Ronald McDonald isn't even an Orthodox!

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[warmonger99]

Do you mean, 300 years of Russian occupation didn't really have any negative effects? They have just freed themselves from a powerful, warmongering, authoritarian neighbour. Give them a chance, and forgive them the urge to find new allies with some clout.

How amusing.

For the last thousand of years, Russia and Ukraine shared the same cultural space and, for the most of this time, the same central government (Kievan Rus', Golden Horde, Russian Empire, Soviet Union). With an exception of the time spent under Polish occupation, the results of which were described quite well here http://www.ukar.org/khmesubt.htm. Poland obviously enjoyed some "clout" back then, but being serfs for Polish magnates, being subjected to polonization and forced conversion to Catholicism must have been quite onerous in retrospect.

Lets consider from what did Ukraine "free" itself this time. Russian empire removed the threat of Tatar and Turkish incursions from the southern Ukraine and eventually took back Galicia from Austro-Hungary, two regions where Ukrainians were not exactly masters of their own destiny to put it mildly. The classics of Ukrainian literature were being published in St. Petersburg, the "suppression" of the Ukrainian language notwithstanding (the ban on teaching it in public schools primarily due to the fact that it was viewed as a polonized dialect spoken mainly by common folk on the right bank of Dnieper which served as an avenue for Polish attempts to create a split between the upper classes of Moscow and Kiev).
As for the Soviet Union, consider the fact that Khrushchev and Brezhnev, two of the party general secretaries, and a whole slew of lesser functionaries in the Politburo and central government actually were from Ukraine. Now, if Ukraine were to Russia a sort of what Puerto Rico is now to the United States then how feasible would that be? Khrushchev even transferred the entire Crimean peninsula, a prime area of beaches and vacation resorts, from being administered by Russia to being administered by Ukraine. How often do the reservations of "oppressed" minorities get this to happen to them? The number of books published in Ukrainian language every year during the "oppression" under Soviet Union actually exceeded the total number of books published yearly in todays Ukraine. But then again, those who do not remember history are bound to repeat it and it seems that this is what the current paymasters ordered.

"With some clout". Quit your posturing and come back when you run out of pants to sniff.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[warmonger99]

The policy of industrialization MAY have helped to avoid the defeat in the WWII (and a much worse fate for all of Russia and Ukraine) but the implementation of this policy was criminal and nobody in their right mind would excuse the famine of 1930's. However, in this context, it is important to understand that it happened not only in Ukraine (2/3 of victims were from other regions). This happened to the rich farmers in the Soviet Union, Ukraine (along with Kuban) was unlucky enough to have the best conditions for agriculture and the largest stockpiles of foodstuffs to expropriate.

Thus, there is no case of targeted shipments of infected blankets there, this act has been perpetrated against a cross-section of the population defined by their wealth, not by their nationality.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Alex Belits]

To clarify things -- Government had to export grain to keep the economy from halting (or people would die for other reasons), and in theory they could reduce the amount of their export earlier, and that could save some people. But to completely compensate for massive drought that happened across the whole grain-producing region, hardly limited to Ukraine, they would still have no resources, and whatever they would do, people still wouldn't have enough to survive, this way or another. As I have said, Communists mishandled the situation, but it was nowhere close to intentionally killing people, or doing anything specifically against Ukrainians and not, say, Russians. There are many examples of shitty leadership, famines, and both combined through the history of the world, and no one claims that those were "genocide".

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[gkuz]

Please explain Kaganovich.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[HardCase]

What is happening now is cultural suicide. No people should be allowed to extinguish their precious diversity.

I don't wear a kilt and I don't eat haggis, even on Robbie Burns' birthday (and you should be happy - nobody wants to see me in a kilt). I don't play the bagpipes.

And I don't farm or raise sheep on a tiny chunk of land on a barren, windswept rock of an island off the coast of Scotland. Why? Because my great great grandparents had the decency to get the hell off of Barra and high tail it to Canada. And after half a generation there, they moved south.

On the other hand, I do play golf. Badly.

-h-

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[CRCulver]

To whom, the Russians?

To the concept of democracy in general. These speakers of Russian and Rusyn in Ukraine have held their languages for hundreds of years, and these are precious to them, but they are suddenly not permitted to deal with their own government in their native language, and have to use a foreign language that for many speakers is difficult (hence surzhyk). True democracy in Ukraine would have meant official trilingualism.

Furthermore, Rusyn is severely endangered and only official usage could save it. Ironically, the aggressor here is the Ukrainian language, whose speakers usually consider themselves victims.

You state that Catholicism was forced on the west, but do not seem to feel that the Russian language was forced on the east. Sounds like a double standard to me.

The Russian language was not forced on the East. After the breakup of Proto-East-Slavonic, the east of Ukraine was always Russian-speaking. The features of Russian that make it Russian--/e/ as a reflex of yat, for instance--are indigenous to eastern Ukraine.

So Catholicism = atheism?

The point is that religious observance in the EU is declining rapidly, and Christianity no longer plays any major role in the lives of the people. Were Ukraine to follow the West, it would end up the same way, short of a miracle.

Or what about the atheism of the east that Lenin's Russia brought with them?

In case you haven't noticed, Communism has been gone for 15 years now. Ukraine can only gain by cooperating with its neighbours to the south and east, since Orthodoxy in those countries is now free to flourish.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Alex Belits]

Yeah right, very peacefully

Do you even know when Ukraine joined Russia?

Doesn't the fact that many Ukrainians decided to join the Nazi's to fight against the Soviets tell you anything?

It says that there were traitors and morons there, just like in pretty much every place that Nazi occupied in WWII, including Belarus and Russia.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Alex Belits]

Kaganovich was an asshole, and many Communists fought against his policies, yet he wasn't responsible for "millions dead" or any other ridiculously inflated stuff.

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Alex Belits]

Belarus has the highest density of industry and the most healthy economy in the whole region (ex-USSR + Eastern Europe).

Re:New relationship because of the elections

[Anonymous Coward]

Latvia and Lithuania aren't part now, but were part of Russian empire until Lenin let them go. Polish troops were on their territories. Wether it happened before or after they got free, I don't remember. Thanks for the 1919-1921 correction. Don't know what ACP is.

There's more to this...

[SQFreak]

You know there's more to this story than just piracy legislation. Also in the news today, Ukraine's Yushchenko Wants to Join EU. That's a trend; Yushchenko is a pro-Western, mostly anti-Russian leader. Is there any doubt that the US is going to help a nation trying to reform its democracy as Ukraine is doing? This is just one of the ways the US will help.

Re:There's more to this...

[CRCulver]

Is there any doubt that the US is going to help a nation trying to reform its democracy as Ukraine is doing?

Ukraine is hardly reforming its democracy in a meaningful way. Aligning itself with the EU simply means all decisions will be made in Brussels by bureaucrats instead of the Ukrainian people. The national legislatures of EU countries have considerably declining power, and the democratically elected EU legislative body has to fight hard for itself, as the software patents issue showed.

Furthermore, by aligning itself with the West, Ukraine will lose its distinctive culture. No people should be allowed to destroy itself wantonly. The best governments have always given the people power without letting them ruin everything for short-term gain.

Re:There's more to this...

[SQFreak]

I disagree... You're saying that all countries in the EU lose their power to Brussels? While there are people who believe that, and, to some extent, a good number of economic decisions are made in Brussels, I don't see that entering the EU is a downside for most countries. Usually, it gives the countries that join a huge economic jump; take Ireland for example. I don't believe Ukraine will lose its distinctive culture. Half of Ukraine is ethnically Russian anyway, not ethnically Ukrainian. In the election, it was clear that this region was pro-Russian and pro-Yanukovich. But, let's see what happens in the upcoming parliamentary elections now that Tymoshenko is fired.

Re:There's more to this...

[hunterx11]

Change is bad. Culture is being lost. Morals are degrading. The language is being corrupted. People have been saying this for as long as history exists, yet we're still around today. If thousands of years of wanton self-annhiliation hasn't destroyed humanity, then I don't think anything is going to destroy Ukrainian culture in your lifetime, or your grandchildren's lifetimes, or their great grandchildren's lifetimes. Sure, people will still be complaining that it really is happening, but they've been doing that since long before you were born anyway.

Re:There's more to this...

[yoprst]

As a Russian, I'm quite surprised to hear that Yuschenko is anti-Russian. Our wannabe-world-dominatrix president uses every chance to punish him for not being his sub, which prompts a (sometimes not very friendly) reaction, but (afair) he's never been caught saying something anti-Russian (otherwise our puppet tv would be touting it daily)

Re:There's more to this...

[CRCulver]

I have noticed myself that travelling around Europe has gotten progressively more boring over the last decade. There is great cultural homogenisation, especially in the EU. Once they are gone, traditional cultures can't come back. This concern isn't the same as "morals are degenerating" but rather more like "species are going extinct".

Re:There's more to this...

[SQFreak]

Which is precisely what I mean by being anti-Russian - he's pulling Ukraine away from Russia's (and, effectively, Putin's) influence. I view it as anti-Russian, but he's not overtly saying that he is against Putin or Russia.

Re:There's more to this...

[CRCulver]

Someone with a long history of -1 posts is calling me an asshole?

Re:There's more to this...

[heinousjay]

Well, I am too. I base it only on your attitude, however, not on the impressive (or not, I haven't checked) length of your posting history.

So here it is: you are a cock-gaped, winking, bleeding asshole. Just because you think you know what's best for everyone else doesn't mean you stand anywhere but alone.

Re:There's more to this...

[cyber-vandal]

All decisions? The UK managed to go to Iraq and the Eurocrats had no say in the matter whatsoever, which is a pretty important power don't you think. Don't believe the lies in the right-wing press; the EU has a lot less power over people's lives than is pretended. Remember that the UK press barons are terrified of having the EU impose sane Europe-wide laws on media ownership, hence the constant attacks on it.

Re:There's more to this...

[Anonymous Coward]

You can still go to Cuba, North Korea, Syria, Zimbabwe and quite a few other places where the local population is protected from the evil american culture and globalization.

Re:There's more to this...

[Anonymous Coward]

Homogenisation? Hardly. If you can't see the differences between the EU countries, then you have simply not visited more than one of them.

Re:There's more to this...

[CRCulver]

I have visited 30 of them so far, and will tour the rest (including the microstates) next summer. For someone coming from the United States or Canada, the homogenisation of Europe is striking. Young people across the continent now wear the same clothes and listen to the same music. The only differences are the language (which in many circumstances is eroded by English) and the food (although doner kebab is beloved by all now). In Asia and Africa, it's not like this.

**AA Goverment

[jonfr]

/scarsam

When did the MPAA and RIAA get into the U.S goverment ? I am also sure that Ukraine goverment has been "figthing" piracy. Since there is so much less real crime in that country.

Somebody in the U.S goverment needs to be reconnected to reality.

scarsam/

Re:**AA Goverment

[Anonymous Coward]

The US government exists to protect US interests.

Letter from Dubya

[nodnarb1978]

Mr. Viktory Yushchenkoff,

You're welcome. May we have some nice light sweet crude and/or Liquified Natural Gas, please? If you can send us both, I can totally hook you up with some nice F-16 Fighting Falcons. Get back to me.

Your pal, Dubya

Re:Letter from Dubya

[Geoffreyerffoeg]

What part of this is funny? This is how countries work. This is how countries have always worked. For example, it's no coincidence that the last years of the US Great Depression were shortly before it entered World War II; we needed raw materials, they needed arms, so we set up a similar trade.

Just because it's oil, jets, and hegemony instead of iron, cotton, and slaves doesn't make a difference.

Re:Letter from Dubya

[nodnarb1978]

Go easy; I recognize that ordinarily that would be quite a troll, and, on reflection, I'm surprised it wasn't modded as such. That said, I meant it as an equal-time barb, not a full-fledged indictment of capitalism.

Re:Letter from Dubya

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Mr. Gayorg Butch,

Tell Condi to use the other form letter. Remember, we've got nukes.

Yours,
Vik

Re:Letter from Dubya

[meringuoid]

May we have some nice light sweet crude and/or Liquified Natural Gas, please?

Dear Mr George Georgovitch Bush,

Sorry, but we're running rather low on natural gas ourselves at the moment. The Russians are hogging the whole supply and using the money to buy footballers. If you could help us out with the gas bill to Sibneft, though, we'd be happy to send some your way.

Bullies..

[Anonymous Coward]

Yay for bullying countries into thinking the way the United States wants you to think.

Re:Insightful??!! Mods on Crack Again

[CRCulver]

I'm in no way a left-leaning moonbat. In fact, I'm afraid for Ukraine because I think that the influence of the Orthodox Church will be too eroded if Ukraine aligns with the West. That probably puts me somewhere on the right.

For all the USA citizens...

[Anonymous Coward]

...who do not understand why your government is perceived as bullies and resented so much, this is a good example. Another country is not doing what corporate America^W^Wthe USA government wants, and so they use the full force of government power to forbid you, the millions of USA citizens, from trading with anybody from that country, to the economic detriment of that country.

I'm curious. What part of that is right and proper?

Re:For all the USA citizens...

[davek]

and what part is not right and proper? There's plenty of market in the world, why not trade elsewhere? In the end, if the US continues its policies, I believe the rest of the world will just grow in a different economic direction. The US cannot continue to be the economic powerhouse as the rest of the world slowly catches up to modern standards of living and consuming. The rest of the world is simply too massive.

-dave

Obligitory Yakov joke

[Ossus_10]

In Soviet Russia, CDs pirate you.

Re:Obligitory Yakov joke

[Anonymous Coward]

In capitalist US, Sony CD pirate you!

More BS with your load of BS?

[sinij]

Ukrainian traditional culture was 'dying' ever since Kathrin disbanded Kazaks, it survived USSR it will survive junk food and Internet. If anything Yushenko gave Ukraine a shot at becoming a democracy, instead of slipping back into totalitarian Imperialism like Russia. If anything he is pro EU, since it's the only sane alternative to Russia.

Oh and C.Cola and McD. are present in Ukraine ever since early 90th, its all produced locally and owned by local businesses that don't pay much loyalties since all books are cooked as a standard business practice in Ukraine. I somehow fail to see

So in other words - you don't know what you are talking about when you talk about E. European politics. At least one thing you got right - nobody buys legal software in Ukraine, at least not end-users, and nothing changed with this regard as in ALL non-first world countries. How can you expect people to pay up to two months salary just for legal MS disk?

Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[mi]

Contrary to the popular in US belief, the drought and famine in 30's were natural disasters.

My grandmother and her family survived Holodomor, thanks to the occasional $10 or $20, sent by the relatives in Connecticut, who left in tzar's times, with which one could by flour in the "foreign currency only" stores ("Torgsin") -- in the Ukrainian village of Narodichi. You are lying. USSR was exporting grain while its own citizens were dying of hunger. It was not a "natural disaster", but a targeted campaign to genocide the (relatively) rich Ukrainian peasants for being less than anxious to join the proletariat and the poorer Russian peasants (worse climate, worse soil made them poorer).

You call these numbers "natural disaster"? From Robert Conquest's "Harvest of Sorrow", quoted by Wikipedia:

At the height of the famine, while confiscating crops from the starving peasants, the USSR exported 1.70 million tons of grain in 1932 and 1.84 million tons in 1933 (close to a quarter of a ton per each victim in each year). The Soviet authorities also banned travel out of the famine affected areas under the pretext that people travelling for food spread "anti-kolkhoz agitation".

Peasants of the Russian "Povolzhje" (along Volga) were, likely, similarly targeted, although they never had the Diaspora to keep the memory alive. Their lands were also fairly decent and, consequently, they also had something else to lose "besides their chains".

Holodomor deniers are hardly better than Holocaust deniers -- and my family was hit by both of these genocide attempts...

And while you visit Wikipedia, check out Godwin's Law. Calling the newly free Baltic countries "Nazis" was remarkably stupid and offensive. Russia has a lot to atone for, and you are not even trying...

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[dunkelfalke]

well, my grandparents also survived it living in ukraine back those days. and no, it wasn't a conspiracy but a bad year and stupid policy. the famine that year was not only in ukraine btw.

and about baltic countries... i actually was born and grown up in one of them (estonia). i visit estonia almost every summer. and yes, there is some truth to those "neonazi" claims.

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[Alex Belits]

1. I deny that Holodomor was anything but a major natural disaster combined with a poor condition of the economy and bad leadership. It was not some kind of genocide campaign that US propaganda is presenting it as, and there is absolutely no reason to see it as such (except for Americans' manufactured hatred for Communists, Russians and Ukrainians alike).

2. Apparently there is a lot of controversy around the content of Wikipedia articles related to Holodomor. I would not quote them, as anything authoritative.

3. Grain had to be rationed at the time of famine. As I have explained before, nothing that Communists would do then would change the situation significantly either way.

4. Some Baltic states' leaders are extreme Nationalists, and they openly supported former Nazis, something that does not happen anywhere else in Europe.

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[arivanov]

What effing Russia are you talking about? Get an effing clue.

Since when is Stalin a Russian. Saying "Mu Russkie" with a thick Georgian accent does not classify him as Russian at least in my book. Since when is Trosky Russian? Since when is Dzerdzhinsky Russian? Since when is Buharin Russian? Since when is Kamenev Russian? Since when is...

As a matter of fact Russia and Russians suffered as much if not more then Ukraine. The estimate for the overall famine deaths for the entire ex-soviet union is 30-33 million. 7 million in Ukraine leaves 27+ million elsewhere. Mostly in Russia by the way.

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[Alex Belits]

US propaganda ALWAYS accuses "enemy" in genocide, no matter what. This is their standard MO, and it works great with US population because most of Americans themselves are disgustingly racist, and can relate.

And yes, I live in US.

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[ncurtain]

When those infamous Nazi peasants in Finland mistakenly stood against that freedom loving Peoples Army of Emancipation in the debacle that led Hitler to invade Russia, the Finnish people were immediately seen as the enemy of Russia's new allies: Great Britain and the USA.

Ever since then the Baltic states were seen as pro Nazi. Wouldn't you feel that way? Prior to WW II, most of western Europe viewed the rearming of Germany as a buffer to Communism.

Luckily FDR and Churchill knew better and joined our glorious allies in seeing off further threats to world peace by giving Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and a host of Nazi sympathisers to that great humanitarian: Uncle Joe.

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[Anonymous Coward]

and yes, there is some truth to those "neonazi" claims.
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/baltic_nazi s/latvia/index2.htm/ here it says directly that Waffen-SS remains were allowed, with high country officials present, to march on their day in Latvia. It's not some, it's the whole truth about those nazis. and yes, I lived there as a minority for 10 years, and I hate their nazi attitude.

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[MvD_Moscow]

Fuck wikipedia, read "Harvest of Sorrow" by Robert Service. If that not a good enough source for you, then you are nothing but a troll.

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[velco]

It was not a "natural disaster", but a targeted campaign to genocide the (relatively) rich Ukrainian peasants for being less than anxious to join the proletariat and the poorer Russian peasants (worse climate, worse soil made them poorer).

"A number of leading Western historians of the famine, such as Moshe Lewin, Sheila Fitzpatrick, Lynn Viola, and Mark Tauger argue that the "genocide" designation is inapplicable because, they argue, the famine was the result of the Soviet regime's indiffernece to peasants as a social group rather than Ukrainians as a national or ethnic group."

Can you dispute this claim? Can you prove that Ukraine suffered disproportional loss of lives, compared to other parts of the USSR, affected by the famine?

Holodomor deniers are hardly better than Holocaust deniers -- and my family was hit by both of these genocide attempts...

This statement is grossly inaccurate on several accounts.

First, who denies the "GM.olodomor"? Objections are against labeling the "Golodomor" "a genocide".

Second, why people, denying the genocide nature of the Golodomor are worse than people denying the Holocaust, given that there aren't any KGB/NKVD documents whatsoever indicating the Golodomor was a state policy, unlike the case with the Holocoust.

And while you visit Wikipedia, check out Godwin's Law. Calling the newly free Baltic countries "Nazis" was remarkably stupid and offensive.

Do you indeed perceive that "Godwin's Law" as a fundamental property of the Universe or just as a witty remark?

Perhaps you should educate yourself about the Waffen-SS and the Latvian Legion and the fact that parliament of Latvia declared "the day of the Legion" (16 March) as a national holiday, and reversed its decision only under pressure from the EU.

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[Anonymous Coward]

What part???
Here in upstate NY and the adjoining New England racism is pretty much non-existent.

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[gkuz]

Objections are against labeling the "Golodomor" "a genocide".

The mere fact that you write "Golodomor" and not "Holodomor" shows where your sympathies lie, and is sufficient evidence that it was not, as you say, indifference, but rather active and explicit de-Ukrainianization.

Was Kaganovich not out to explicitly destroy the Ukrainian people?

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[mi]

people whose knowledge of history is taken entirely from recent propaganda speeches.

"Recent"? Robert Conquest's "Harvest of Sorrow" was published twenty years ago -- and he concludes, it was a deliberate mass murder or even genocide. The only "recent" speeches on the subject are by Russia's Holodomor-deniers -- like yourself.

[...]works great with US population because most of Americans themselves are disgustingly racist, and can relate.

Ha-ha! "Most Americans"? How about this -- to keep you on topic of Russia? But, anyway, for this attempt to deflect to hold water, you need to accuse "Most Ukrainians" of being racists, not Americans.

If anything can be said about Americans on this subject, the stupid American Left gave one of their own the Pulitzer Prize for either being totally duped by the Commies, or for deliberately helping them.

And yes, Russians suffered too. But this thread began with the reasons, Ukrainians want to escape Russia's influence and are happy to embrace that of America. America's clients tend to fare much better off -- South Korea, Chile, Taiwan, Japan, West Germany, whereas Russia's "area of influence" is that of gloom, poverty, and oppression -- Belarus, Cuba, North Korea.

And at the end it does not even matter, whether it is so by evil design or by sheer incompetence.

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[mi]

7 million in Ukraine leaves 27+ million elsewhere. Mostly in Russia by the way.

All the more reasons for Ukrainians to want to escape Russia's influence. Thanks for bringing it up.

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[holt]

Are there a lot of minorities in Upstate NY or New England? If not, it's hard to say if or to what extent racism exists... It may not manifest itself due to the low number of "opportunities."

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[Alex Belits]

Appealing to supposed authority, aren't you?

Why would it be in any way more autoritative?

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[Alex Belits]

Twenty years ago Russians were too busy changing their political system to debunk every monstrously exaggerrated, opportunistic accusation thrown around by all kinds of "historians".

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[Alex Belits]

Check any research that used original documents as the source -- your numbers "elsewhere", of deaths that may in any way be attributed to Stalin/NKVD's actions are inflated at least 10 times by your friendly american "historians" aka propaganda workers.

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[Alex Belits]

It's "Golodomor" in Russian, Belarusian and Ukrainian. "Holod" is a completely different word there, so no one who speak those languages can use shitty "Holodomor" transcription invented by Westerners who don't even know the languages in which all original documents about those events were written.

Do you claim that Russians and Ukrainians shouldn't talk about this, and only Americans can have an enlightened opinion about things that happened almost a century ago in a country that was their greatest enemy at the time?

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[velco]

The mere fact that you write "Golodomor" and not "Holodomor" shows where your sympathies lie, and is sufficient evidence that it was not, as you say, indifference, but rather active and explicit de-Ukrainianization.

"Holod" means "cold" in all Slavic languages (with variations, e.g. "hlad").
"Golod" means "hunger" in all Slavic languages (with variations, e.g. "glad").

I'm a Slavic myself, Poles, Ukrainians, Russians are Slavic too. How my knowledge of Slavic languages shows where my sympathies lie?

Moreover, how my spelling/pronunciation is a "sufficient evidence that it was .. active and explicit de-Ukrainianization" ? Do you find some causal relationship between what I wrote today and /. and what happened more than 70 years ago?

Was Kaganovich not out to explicitly destroy the Ukrainian people?

I have no idea who is Kaganovich and was it out to "explicitly destroy the Ukrainian people". Do you know more? What argumentation can you provide for the above claim ?

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[gkuz]

"Holod" means "cold" in all Slavic languages (with variations, e.g. "hlad"). "Golod" means "hunger" in all Slavic languages (with variations, e.g. "glad").

Sorry to you and the other Russian-sympathizers, but no.

The Ukrainian word for "hunger" begins with the "h" sound as in the English word "horse." The Ukrainian word for "cold" begins with the "kh" sound that has no analogue in English. There is no Ukrainian word "golod" starting with the hard "g" sound of the English "goal." This was just one part of the Stalinist de-Ukrainianization which you seem to support.

I have no idea who is Kaganovich

If this is actually true and not a troll, then you are not sufficiently informed to even be engaging in this discussion. Start here.

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[velco]

Yeah, I notice that you're quick to correct my admittedly limited knowledge of the Ukrainian language, while leaving unanswered all the questions I asked, simultaneously drawing further conclusions that I'm a "Russian-sympathizer" and support "Stalinist de-Ukrainianization", bases on what - on a *possible* spelling error. Huh?

It's worth mentioning that Wikipedia uses the spelling "Golodomor" here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

A Ukrainian dictionary also returns "golod" as a translation for the
English "hunger": http://www.ukrainiandictionary.com/listing.asp

Another Ukrainian dictionary also gives the pronunciation "golod" for
"hunger": http://lingresua.tripod.com/cgi-bin/onlinedic.pl

So, to summarize:
1. You did't answer any question I posted.
2. You spread misinformation about the spelling and pronunciation of the
      word "golod".
3. You drew conclusions about my symphaties and political stance from my
      spelling/pronunciation. Several times.
4. You failed to note that I didn't claim that "Holodomor:" was not a
      genocide, but merely pointed out the fact that there's a great
      controversy and a general lack of evidence.

All this means that you're fucking little twit, blinded for some reason by
irrational hatred agains Russians (despite that neither Stalin nor Kaganovich
were Russians), to the extent that you perceive as "enemy" anyone not
convinced in the one true anti-Russian dogma and all in all not worth another
second of my time.

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[Anonymous Coward]

Both links you posted translate the word as holod. Perhaps I can help with you'er limited knowledege in the cyrillic alphabet there are two letter representing the vowel h slightly diffrently pronounced:
*the voiceless velar fricative [x] - looks just like the latin x, corresponds to the diaphone ch in slavic languages using latin and is usually transcribe as "kh" (eg.: like in khokhol)
*the voiced glottal fricative [h\] - looks a bit like the latin r, corresponds to the letter h in slavic languages using latin and is usually transcribed as "h" (eg.: like in holodomor)

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[gkuz]

It's worth mentioning that Wikipedia uses the spelling "Golodomor" here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

A Ukrainian dictionary also returns "golod" as a translation for the English "hunger": http://www.ukrainiandictionary.com/listing.asp

No, they do not. The Wikipedia article says "Holodomor" in both Latin and Cyrillic characters. In Ukrainian, the glyph represented by Unicode U+0413 is pronounced like the Latin "H". The Latin hard "G" sound, in Ukrainian, is represented by Unicode U+0490.

The refusal to recognize this is but one example of Stalin's de-Ukrainization.

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[velco]

Yeah, I see now the Ukrainians spell it 'H' and pronounce it 'G'.

    This is not an example of "Stalin's de-Ukrainization", though. It's an example of Ukrainian "de-Bulgarizaion", because the sound 'g' as in "golod" is spelled U+413 and this is the authotaritative spelling, because it is like this in Bulgarian and the cyrillic alphabet is created by Bulgarians in Bulgaria.

    So, instead of a sinister plan to wipe out the Ukranian race, it appeared there was (or still is?) a sinister plan by Ukrainians to take over the world! What else could the replacement of 'G' with 'H' mean ?!!

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[Alex Belits]

Ukrainian and Belarusian languages have "soft GE" and "HA" that are completely different letters. "HA" is an equivalent of "H", "soft G" has no direct equivalent in a Roman alphabet, and is closest to "G". Ukrainian language has separate "hard GE", and Russian has "GE" that is pronounced hard (exactly like "G") and looks exactly like "GE" in Ukrainian and Belarusian that is pronounced soft in those languages.

Some idiots in US at some point decided that it's proper to use "H" to represent both "soft GE" and "HA", just because neither of the characters are the same as "hard GE", nevermind that it created huge amount of ambiguity because "soft GE" still sounds nothing like "HA", and there are many words that differ by those very letters, such as "golod" and "holod". On the other hand, "hard" and "soft" GE are related, and there is no ambiguity in using "G" to represent both. Same words may have "hard GE" in Russian, and "soft GE" in Ukrainian and Belarusian (all three represented as the same character in cyrillic alphabet). Nobody but ignorant Westerners would ever think of stuffing either "HA" or "H" into the place of "soft GE", and if someone tried to do so, he would be accused in mocking Belarusian and Ukrainian pronunciation of common Slavic words.

This mutilation of languages demonstrates that people who write this crap know nothing about Russian and Ukrainian language, have absolutely no respect for those countries culture, and gather all their information and opinion from their fellow "researchers" who don't have a basic knowledge necessary to read the original documents about things that they are talking about.

They can just as well claim that Count Dracula ruled Ukraine for the whole time when it was a part of Russia or USSR -- they would have just as much evidence for that as they have for supposed genocide at the hands of Russians, and most of American population wouldn't know any better, anyway.

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[gkuz]

Ukrainian and Belarusian languages have "soft GE" and "HA" that are completely different letters.

Please specify which letter you believe to be which, using Unicode glyphs. Please specify how you believe the words for "hunger" and "cold" to be spelled and/or pronounced, using current Ukrainian orthography (not Stalinist or Alexandrist orthography).

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[gkuz]

Nobody but ignorant Westerners would ever think of stuffing either "HA" or "H" into the place of "soft GE", and if someone tried to do so, he would be accused in mocking Belarusian and Ukrainian pronunciation of common Slavic words.

So I finally had a chance to go look it up, and my copy of the 1958 USSR reprint of the 1907 Hrinchenko "Slovar Ukrains'koyi Movy" says of the letter now known as the glyph U+0413 "Latin H" and says of the letter now known as U+0490 "Latin G". Ingorant Westerner indeed.

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[Alex Belits]

"Latin H" corresponds to cyrillic U+0425. How could you find anything about latin letters in a dictionary written in Ukrainian, and entirely in cyrillic alphabet, I have no idea.

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[Alex Belits]

GE -- soft in Ukrainian and Belarusian,hard in Russian: 0413. Please note that this is in the main part of Cyrillic alphabet that is common among all languages that use cyrillic of any kind.

HA -- soft in all languages: 0425. The same.

Hard GE, specific to Ukrainian language: 0490. Note that this letter is placed in Unicode separately from the common sequence of cyrillic alphabet, and is among other accented cyrillic characters that are specific to particular languages.

It is important that in Belarusian language "hard GE" can't be pronounced at all, yet "HA" still exists as a separate letter and sound -- it is much softer than even "soft GE", in both Belarusian and Ukrainian.

The only kind of "logic" that I see in this is that since Russian language has no "soft GE", more widespread use of Ukrainian language may sound for a foreigner as softening "GE" to what he perceives as "latin H" in all names that he hears in Ukrainian instead of Russian. For a local, be he Russian,Ukrainian or Belarusian, there is a huge difference between all three sounds/pronunciations and letters, so it's absolutely inappropriate to mix them, or try to teach people who speak those languages, how they are supposed to write those words.

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[Alex Belits]

Current Ukrainian orthography is exactly the same as it was before -- it was always different from Russian because it is -- surprise -- a different language. Again, stupid Westerners see that people (especially politicians) use Ukrainian language more often (some extremely poorly, too, so Ukrainians have to ask them to speak Russian instead of broken Ukrainian), and believe that this is some kind of language reform.

Nevertheless words "" and "" happen to be written exactly like that in both languages.

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[Alex Belits]

The form didn't convert cyrillic properly, so here are the same words manually converted into a readable form: ...words "" and ""

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[Alex Belits]

Still doesn't work -- here is the same text in Unicode entities that will look right if you copy it into an html file "голод" and "холод"

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian!

[gkuz]

"Latin H" corresponds to cyrillic U+0425. How could you find anything about latin letters in a dictionary written in Ukrainian, and entirely in cyrillic alphabet, I have no idea.

If you're going to deny primary sources, then I'm not sure there's much point in continuing this.

Please refer to the Wikipedia article about Ukrainian phonology. As was pointed out on this thread days ago, the letter U+0425, which you call "Ha", is, in Ukrainian, "Kha", or a "voiceless velar fricative". The letter U+0413, which Unicode calls a "Ghe" and you call a "soft Ge" is, in Ukrainian, "He", or a "voiced glottal fricative", pronounced exactly like the first phoneme in the English word "hard".

I just hope....

[Palal]

Now that we lifted the restrictions, we should start buying their planes... they're much better than our shit.

Re:I just hope....

[JediLow]

Not really... the a veteran pilot in a F-16 pretty much dominates the skies as of now - not to mention the F-22A which just flew its first operational mission.

Re:I just hope....

[AoT]

um...Duh?

Re:I just hope....

[ncurtain]

Yes but the latest planes the Ukraine has are totally invisible at all times even in the rain, even when parked up, even the aerodromes are too. And all your nukes belong DRM.

You don't have a hope in hell.

Re:I just hope....

[octopus72]

Dominating sky as part of US Air Force attacking poor contry (which was under sanctions for a decade) is easy for any plane, fighting modernised Sukhoi/MIG planes with good ground support is completely different thing.

Denying Holodomor? How Russian?

[21mhz]

Russia has a lot to atone for, and you are not even trying...

Don't take this stupid troll for the voice of Russia whole.
I feel for the hunger victims and the purged, were they in Ukraine, Russia or Poland. In a sense, one might say that Russia too was occupied by a hostile force, but... oh well.

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian?

[Alex Belits]

You are one of those people whose knowledge of history is taken entirely from recent propaganda speeches.

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian?

[21mhz]

You are one of those people whose knowledge of history is taken entirely from recent propaganda speeches.

Dude, at least some of my knowledge comes directly from my grandma, whose family house once got a watch tower built right before its door (it couldn't open wide anymore!) as part of a penal labor camp. Of course, this annexed a large part of the family's plot of land as well — remember, there was no such thing as private land for Bolsheviks. Later, some NKVD grunts basking in their power used the house's wall for target practice, what do you mean kids live there! I've seen the bullet holes and the damage done to build that magnificent camp installation, with my own eyes. During and after the war, the grandma was left alone with four kids, without any help from supposedly "people's" government, working all day for a meager wage and no hope to feed her family. She had to give some of her children out to an orphanage for a time, which then was marginally better than leaving them die of hunger.

I bet the leftie academics at your uni didn't tell you about such things, eh?

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian?

[Alex Belits]

So this is your problem -- how can a government dare to build a prison?

Re:Denying Holodomor? How Russian?

[21mhz]

Whoa. There is a Russian idiom to describe people like you: "khot' kol na golove teshi." I believe this translates to 'dickhead'. Have a nice day.

Re:Insightful??!! Mods on Crack Again

[21mhz]

I'm in no way a left-leaning moonbat. In fact, I'm afraid for Ukraine because I think that the influence of the Orthodox Church will be too eroded if Ukraine aligns with the West.

That makes you... wait for it... a right-leaning moonbat!

How serious are you?

[A nonymous Coward]

No people should be allowed to extinguish their precious diversity.

I wonder how much of your precious diversity you have preserved.

Have you restored your parents' car, or did you buy a new one? Or perhaps back to the horse and buggy, or perhaps a more historical item such as bare feet?

How did you enter your slashdot article, using an old typewriter, or one of them new fangled punch card systems?

Does your abode have oil lamps?

Do you get your heat from wood, or perhaps electricity or natural gas?

For that matter, I notice you have extinguished your ancestors' form of language. Your usage looks remarkably modern, and full of words taken from other languages. Come to think of it, what IS your natural language? Surely preserving your precious diversity means rejecting foreign influences in language, one of the most basic parts of any culture.

Come on, get with it! I don't want you to extinguish your precious diversity.

-1 Tard

[Stoutlimb]

"Except they weren't proud of their culture, they were proud of the American culture they are adopting. How many of these people are devout Orthodox, listen to traditional music, wear appropriate clothing, and spurn Western influences? Not very many."

I've been there. They only align themselves with the USA out of expediency, they are truly proud of themselves regardless of which official language they speak. Ukraine is a very forward thinking country, so naturally they admire the achievments of other forward thinking nations.

Here's what they adopted: A very strong desire for true democracy! That's it. The rest they have had for a long time.

I think you were speaking completely out of your ass.

Re:-1 Tard

[Crayon Kid]

I think you were speaking completely out of your ass.

Not completely. Gotta give him credit. Equating desire for democracy and freedom with losing their own culture, and saying that conservatives and pro-russians should decide because it's more akin to their "roots", that is as fine propaganda as I've ever seen. Kudos.

[Piracy review] Currently in Kyiv, Ukraine...

[Zx-man]

...And we have a new piracy-related industry here since the USSR broke down: so-called "Computer Clubs"... It's interesting to see how it evolves.

Imagine an Internet-Café without the Internet. A bunch of computers set up specifically to play games on, connected to a LAN with servers filled with pr0n, muzak and warez. Basically, this is it. You may come to play some games, bring your HDD / iPod / pack of DVD-R's or amuse yourself with the most interesting feature: the pirated Windows that says it is not Windows.

The clubs' owner usually cooperate in order hire several cracker who RES-EDIT an MSWin distribution - change the interface, icons, text and sometimes rewrite the EXPLORER.EXE to look entirely different - it is almost a tradition to use Borland Dephi for this.
Here are the screenshots: http://tinyurl.com/9ddgo

One of the popular "pre-modified" distributions in "BedOS 2 [Tanya]" - a heavily hacked Win98. Yet the computer illiteracy of the "copyright protectors" lets people who run the "Computer Clubs" to get past the law by claiming that what they are using _is not actually Windows_ (!). See http://winbeos98.km.ru/ for further deteil

Re:[Piracy review] Currently in Kyiv, Ukraine...

[ncurtain]

Brilliant. I'm going to emigrate. How easy is it to learn the lingo? Or can I get by on English if I shout loud enough?

Now then how to post this without submitting... Bri-tons, never never nevah! shall be DRM-ed.

+1 Best flame war ever.

[AoT]

nt

Genocide

[ncurtain]

Genocide is nearly always the result of a lesser faction having a greater culture.

Once you remove any threat from an alternative culture you make inroads into what you can accomplish in your reign of terror. It worked for Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Idi Amin. Even respectable governmental authorities practice it as did Margarat Thatcher.

It was tried in the USA in the early 50's and it is going on now there once more. Obviously to a lesser extent; mass communication has seen to that along with an intrusive press. Anyone can become part of a radical culture there nowadays.

Not so in E. Europe, most of China (where capitalism is conspiring against mass communication vis-a-vis Yahoo. Oh shucks when will they understand irony?) and the saddest place on earth: Africa, where slavery is still the norm.

While the good graces of the United States of America can hold out the friendship of Most Favoured Nation status, it is still the act of a feudal benevolent (malevolent some might say) dictator.

For that is the stuff dictators do.

Modded up to 5+

[ncurtain]

For being on topic and insightful. Can you get modded up for being on topic?

You can get modded 5 for insightful even if so far off topic it's on another thread on another website.

I wonder how may of us have Bad Karma?

I too have not been given the mark of the chimp. I won't buy DRM ridden goods on principle. How about you?

Now back to the smoke and the flames of war:

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his optical drive, or in his hard disk,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of Linux, which is poured out without mixture into the copy of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Secret Police, and in the presence of the Chimp:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the Chimp and his broadcast flag, and whosoever receiveth the mark of DRM.

How Bullies can be good for the economy.

[ncurtain]

The US government and a substantial part of the population there, are conservatives. And what they would like to see in other countries are democrats in power there, not the Republicans such as Iran has.

Oddly, even the Democrats in the US want to see this too.

Since the majority of Republicans and Democrats in the US want democrats everywhere else, you'd think a democracy anywhere else would be easily accomplished.

The difference in US Republicans and Democrats then, must be that Republicans will try to do something about it. (The difference between Left and Right in the UK if course is that there is no difference here these days.)

All we have to do is convince the foreigners that DRM is a good thing and not only will we be able to sell them crippleware instead of the junk they have at the moment but we can sell them more expensive toys to play the crippleware on.

You see, in a democracy, everybody wins.

Nice one.