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The Whys of MMOG Archetypes
heartless_ writes "The decision to use an archetype class system in Vanguard : Saga of Heroes has been met with mixed feelings by the fanbase. Some like it; others dislike it, and still others just don't know what to think. Gamergod has a rundown on what's involved in an archetype system, as well as the pros and cons from both sides of the game's design." From the article: "The balancing of classes is simplified because the system introduces a distinct measurement for comparing classes within an archetype. For example, if the Cleric and the Shaman belong to the archetype whose primary role is to heal, the developers can use this to crunch the numbers and ensure both classes are equal in this ability."
After playing EQ and other MMORPG games for years, in the end it won't matter. Certain groups or classes will always feel slighted and make noise about it whether it is truly the case or not.
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I want this and would pay for it. I've been brainstorming along this idea for years. Even when I DMed D&D (etc.) I tried to make it where only the DM did rolls and explained what the rolls meant to the characters. It was pretty hit-or-miss with the players
as the mini-maxed characters appear. UO had flexibility but at least was wise enough to limit players from becoming best at everything. Horizons had the archetypes but allowed players to pick up as many types as they wanted. In the end you have characters that could do nearly everything. Asherson's Call was open ended but attempted to contain what players could do with limiting the number of choices afforded. Yet at the same time unlimited experience meant most skills capped and characters at the end game looked very much alike.
There are other games with some openeness to character development but the end result is usually the same. Over time the players learn what skills actually are worth it and those are the only ones the players have. Throw PvP into the mix and you will see less deviation.
Having a defined role also helps players identify easier with their characters. They can learn their place fairly easily with the help of other more experience players. It also makes fighting MOBs in the game easier as you can generally know what to expect of your opponent.
Which is more fun? Really it depends on the game.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
.... the system just boils down to "Healer", "Fighter", "Thief", etc. Generic RPG. REALLY generic. Plain white box with "RPG" in 24 point type on the front generic.
Both games took place in roughly the same setting, but I gotta say, the roleplaying that went on in DR was unlike anything I've ever experienced. Its funny because people could get a general feel for the quality of weapons, armor, etc by appraising it and getting a verbal description, but people primarily dressed and outfitted themselves according to their characters tastes rather than by what gave them the highest bonus.
Plus, magic was interesting, requiring you to look for verbal cues on how your spells were doing and your harnessing of power for them. Definitely worth checking out. Yes, it had a monthly fee, but it has VERY active developers and GMs and is an incredible gaming environment. When was the last time you played an MMORPG where you tried to guage how much health a monster had left by how damaged it looked when you examined it?
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I completely agree. I only played EQ2 for a couple months after release and the despite the archetype model, they still created pecking order for group spots. The funniest part is their argument to get away from the "holy trinity" of EQ. So now instead of warrior, cleric, enchanter, every group needs archetype A, B, and C. Oh and since your all the same choosing who you want in your group comes down to what, looks? Fight it all you want, certian classes will always be better at particular things then others. And the MMO mob has pre-determind that to be take pain = best tank, biggest heal = best "cleric", most damage/crowd control = 3rd group spot. IMHO the trick is not class balancing but world balancing. What if there were quests/bosses who might deal very little damage but are constantly regenerating/healing. Your damage dealing "tank" now becomes more attractive for that instance over one that can take a beating better. Of course, this also requires there to be some balance in quest rewards.
One thing I was looking forward to with Vangaurd was the "new" MMORPG classes like diplomats. Perhaps someone who could "unlock" or make possible certian quests by his negotiation skills with NPCs, or take advantage of difficult battles by persuading some of the enemy to turn against their friends. Of course, once you dump this special sort of class into an archetype where their counterpart uses magic to simply destroy their way through you have lost a huge element of an immersive RPG.
all the comments, which i found interesting, i think it important to note something no one has addressed yet: finding people. the idea is certainly noble to allow every player to create their character to exactly their own specifications and develop them in exactly their own way, etc, etc, but what happens when you try to put together a group of people? in most, i've not played all, archetype-style games it is not overly difficult since you already know what each class, or sub-class, will do well. so if you need someone to take damage, you look for classes x and y and if you need someone sneaky you look for class z.
the problem with completely free-form gaming is that you don't know what anyone else can do. in fact, for all you know, they may not really know what they can do either. this makes it very difficult to cooperate with people you don't know, either irl or in-game. i just can't see large numbers of users being willing to risk getting screwed with groups everytime they form one. just my $.02
The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it.
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You won't find any numbers in this game, it and its ilk are what I consider to be among the world's first mmorpg:
Genesis, The Original LP MUD
http://genesis.tekno.chalmers.se/
Regards
Wax on, wax off baby!
A lot of your ideas would work great in an MMO that's really restrictive on who they allow into the game.
Actually what I'm talking about is restricting what the character can do, not what the player can do.
For example, in the social scheme I'm suggesting, there are six levels of social contact. In the first, instead of names you see decriptions of people above their heads in grey. These are people you do not know. You can't attack them unless they attack you first (there are exceptions... but they are to detailed to get into right now.)
The other five go from love (blue), like (green), aquantance (white), dislike (orange), hate (red).
Actions you can perform on another character are limited based on your social relationship to them. You can only beat up people you don't like. You can't punch someone you like. You can only kill those you hate. Sometimes you can hate someone you don't know... for example if you are in a gang you might hate all members of another gang. If you see one flying colours, then you could attack them and try to kill them. But you'd know you were a target for them too, so joining a gang has risks and rewards.
The only way you get to know anyone in the game is through an introduction, either by another player or a plot device. Your character will react accordingly. For example, if your friend points out someone he doesn't like, you'll start off not liking them either. You may later like them if you spend time talking with them... but that would take time.
There's a lot more to this system, but basically what we're talking about here is taking the simulation down to a deeper level than it's currently at. In current games you can swing at sword at anyone, friend or foe... but your character wouldn't do that... you're doing it because you're bored or a griefer.
Limit the characters actions to what is appropriate and you severly reduce what problem players can accomplish.