Slashdot Mirror
How Do You Job-Hunt If You Work Overtime?
Lord_Dweomer asks: "As a recent college grad, I took a job to pay the bills, but soon realized that it would end up sucking the life out of me. I work a lot of overtime in a high-stress, tight deadline job. Once you get into that kind of downward spiral, how do you find another job?"
"All my free time, during the week, is completely non-existent, and the weekends are needed to take care of chores, and preserve my mental health. Are potential employers typically sensitive to the fact that I may not be able to interview during the week or during standard work hours? Also, will having left here after a year seem like a real black mark on my resume? My reasons for leaving, aside from the overtime (I am non-exempt), would be that I've basically been promoted in work load and responsibilities -- and have even taken on another job role, IN ADDITION to my current one. All of this without a raise in pay, or new title.
I'd quit if I had a choice, but I really need the money, yet I'm unable to look for a new job because of lack of time. How am I supposed to job hunt under these circumstances?"
I'd quit if I had a choice, but I really need the money, yet I'm unable to look for a new job because of lack of time. How am I supposed to job hunt under these circumstances?"
You leave the job when you die at age 41.
As much as I hate dealing with this festering pool of opportunists, sometimes you just have to contain your revulsion and deal with a headhunter. With the promise of a fat fee, they can be quite motivated to place you and can often get you "in" to places that would just pass your resume by.
Got any vacation days? Use them up to go job hunting. Failing that, quit this job now and get something convenient (like working in a friend's bar in the evenings) to pay the bills while you spend the mornings interviewing. Or sign up with a temp agency. I did that when I was between jobs once, got me by until I found something permanent, and it had the 'benefit' of not being obliged to work every day in perpetuity. It was a bit nerve-wracking though, my finances were living on the edge, so it depends on how much reserves you have in the bank.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
There are lots of positions that you could look for online at any time of the day or night. Why not just look for the job after hours and send off your resume by e-mail then? You're going to have to take a day off or something for the interview, but that's even if you're not working overtime.
Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
the weekends are needed to take care of chores, and preserve my mental health
I call whiny bitch. If you really wanted it, you would skip on the "mental health" part of the weekends and spend the time getting a new job. Then, later, when you had a new job, you'd get the benefit of not being so stressed out all the time.
"How do I get something I want but not have to do any work for it?"
Welcome to real life, bud. No pain, no gain. And in this case, a little pain now seems like it could pay off big-time later. To bad for you you're not willing to do anything to obtain your goal.
I'd set the amount of time needed to write, proofread, edit, proofread, and submit a story to /. being at about 30 minutes. I'm betting hunting for a new job takes significantly more than 30 minutes.
"Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you."
You should start doing less hours in order to make time for your job hunt. Yes, your managers will probably frown upon for doing so, but it would probably take a few weeks of you not doing crazy overtime for them to decide to do something major like firing you. So you're really buying yourself some time. I don't think you would be fired for doing a few weeks of "non-crazy" work hours.
You just graduated from college yet you sound as drained as someone nearing retirement. Snap out of it, get your resume out there, pound pavement: you don't work 24*7.
Or... are you in over your head? It's one thing to get your degree, another to apply the theory to practical use.
Whatever happens, do not quit your job yet. It's easier to get a job while you already have one. A potential employer may consider you a hothead if you tell them you quit your job with nothing else lined up.
Trolling is a art,
Network. Email everyone you can (and by can, I mean everyone who won't get mad at you for eamiling them that you need work). Try getting into some networking groups like Friendster and LinkedIn.com.
Get a Blog and start writing in it, and include the fact that your looking for work and your trials and tribulations etc. It worked wonders for Odd Todd and who knows who might read your blog. Of course to advertise you're gonna have to read/post in others blogs. Do so wisely.
Most importantly -- believe that you can make it happen and you will. But the key is you have to make it happen -- otherwise it won't.
Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm
Quite often additional job responsibilities are given not because of evil intent of the management, but because employee is eager to take stuff on in hope of a raise or promotion. This is especially true of new employees just out of college. Make things mechanical. Plan how much time your current workload will take, and once there's an attempt to add something on ask what part of the stuff you currently do your manager wants to "load balance" to someone else. If he has no intent to do so, warn him that things will take longer and some things may not be done.
You will end up working a little overtime (just to recoup the time you spend browsing slashdot at work), but things will become controllable. Working more than 10 hours a day and more than 5 days a week is unsustainable. So it only makes sense to do so if you need or want to do it temporarily, to, say, meet a deadline or to get rich in a startup. Pre-deadline crunches shouldn't last more than two weeks, though. If it's more - your management is doing something wrong and you should simply refuse to come in on the weekend or stay late.
There's this old proverb about squeaky wheels and grease...
I believe there's also one about the person who sticks his head up the highest getting it knocked off... or something...
Simple answer. They can't actually force you to work overtime. It's a myth that a lot of corporate types are all too happy to let continue... but legally, they can't force you to work overtime, and you can sue for wrongful dismissal if they fire you for not doing it. And they know it.
So just stop working overtime. Or cut back on it. It won't take you too long to update your resume, and then maybe an hour a day to check the job sources and send out 2 or 3 resumes a day. And when you get an interview, take a sick or vacation day.
If you believe everything you read, you'd better not read. - Japanese proverb
after reading it a second time i came to the conclusion that maybe he just doesn't really want a new job. he needs weekends for down time and cooling off... but if you really want the other job, you put in the effort.
he mentions how he's doing 2 different jobs without any sort of extra compensation but the overtime. maybe he should take it up with teh boss. maybe it would be cheaper for the boss to hire someone else at a lower pay rate than to be paying him all the overtime.
he says he's a recent grad... find a roommate, move into a cheaper apartment, don't go out drinking, don't spend money to have fun. if that's what your friends do, let them. if you can, move back in with your parents. i doubt you're tied down with family stuff being a recent grad. spread your chores out over the course of the evenings. laundry, dishes, cleaning, etc can all be done over time. hell, i haven't cleaned my apartment really well in months, but i pick up and vacuum every now and then. and i have lots of free time.
if you really want the job, you'll put in the extra effort and give up some of the quality of life crap and just deal with it until you find a new job. otherwise, you will have to learn to suck it up and deal with teh status quo. the words are harsh, but that's really what it comes down to.
please me, have no regrets.
If you are the only one in your dept. working this hard, and you have an understanding boss, let him know, and maybe you can get some relief, like getting some of the work moved to others who aren't working as hard.
Also, I'm a little confused about your overtime situation. If you are paid for overtime, then you are non-exempt. If you do not get paid for overtime, you are exempt. (As in: Exempt from overtime laws.)
If everybody at your office is working this hard, then yeah, it's time to take some "flex" time during the day to do at least a phone interview. If they aren't paying you by the hour, then it is perfectly right for you to do so. (You aren't physically chained to your desk, are you?) If they are paying by the hour, just charge them for less OT.
Remember, you work to live, not the other way around.
SirWired
He's got a point, though. In the same time it took him to submit a story to Slashdot, he could have probably shined up his resumé and signed up for Monster.com. Hell, I get emails from them every day with relavent job listings! How's that for an easy job search... Granted Monster.com isn't exactly the be-all end-all of job searching, but it's a decent start.
Who doesn't like free music?
Was it: "The employee that comes to work in a suit and leaves for job interviews on company time gets the unfair dismissal case."?
Agreed.
Always have a job when you're looking for a job. Having a job gives you a better bargaining position, and everyone knows it. Scout out quiet, private locations with good cell coverage for telephone interviews. Never appear in person for a 1st interview... you can only use up so much sick/vacation time, so you want to be smart about it.
Get a copy of "What Color Is Your Parachute" and read it cover to cover during your "mental health time." Make a point to contact 2 people per evening by email about information/opportunities. Soon, your contact list will be self-sustaining and the right job will just fall into your lap.
It really sounds to me like you're conflicted about your priorities. You cannot make a lot of money and NOT work hard. (Oh, some people do, but they're exceptions. The vast majority of well-off people in the world worked very hard indeed. You can always work very hard and make no money, but the reverse is tough). Decide what's right for you: your money or your life.
Signing up for Monster.com and polishing up one's resume' is one thing.... finding the time to go on the interviews is another.
Step 1. Look at your financial situation. If you have a car payment and a high rent and carry a credit card balance each month then you are well and truly screwed. You could have bought a used junker and rented a hole in the wall but you didn't and now your ass is pwnd. Suck it up and the next time you have a choice between cheap and nice, choose cheap.
And Craig if you're reading this: A dog is nice but a pet rock is cheap.
Step 2. Okay, so your finances are reasonable. You have little if any debt and your core living expenses don't eat your entire paycheck. Cut your spending. Cut it to the bone. Dump the cable TV. Skip the chips at the grocery store. Don't even bother visiting Best Buy. You need to put enough money in the bank to pay your core expenses for about six months.
Step 3. Okay, so you have enough money to live off of for six months. Quit. Give two weeks notice set to expire in the first week of the next month and walk away. Note that the two weeks notice is very important. Your next employer probably won't call your last one, but wouldn't it suck if you missed out on a great job because they did? Leaving shortly after the start of the month is important too. You don't want to show a large gap on your resume but nobody counts the days.
Step 4. Sleep. This'll take about two weeks. Kick back, let your whiskers grow, shower if the smell gets too bad but mostly relax and recover.
Step 5. Take a two week vacation. Somewhere dirt cheap 'cause this'll put you a month in to your six months of saved money. Heck, go visit some relatives. That's always cheap. It doesn't really matter where you go as long as its away.
Step 6. Come back fresh and start looking for jobs. Apply for anything that looks vaguely interesting. If you're lucky, 1 in 50 will respond with interest. Don't worry about the response rate. Just keep applying for jobs. Go on interviews and if it looks like a suck job, turn it down. You have five months to find a job. Don't sweat it.
Step 7. Accept one of the jobs. Hopefully you found one you liked, but if you ran out of time then take what you can get and go back to step 2. Do make sure you take the new job before the money in the bank runs out. You absolutely don't want to go in to debt in the hopes of holding out for the right job. That'll just land you back at step 1.
Your mileage may vary, but this worked great for me.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
You have to look for a job during your vacation time then. Have the interviews lined up in advance.
An alternative (and I have done this before) is to do interviews on your lunch hour.
Another alternative (and I have also done this) is to just go THIS PLACE SUX! and walk out, then you have plenty of time to go look. Being instantly unemployed and in dire need of cash *soon* is a great inducement to not fool around and actually go find another job.
Another alternative (again,I have also done this) is just go to the boss and make your case, tell them you are burnt out, fried, that something needs to change, then run whatever changes you need by him. That's only if you really want to stay there of course, and be prepared for a compromise solution. Remember, they are making money off of you somehow, if they weren't, you would have been canned already. Modern corps are not shy about firing people if they don't make money for them, so that is about your only bargaining position of note and relevance.
Last one, just make a plan and go into business for yourself. That's the most fun, most risky,and most likely to have a very good payback if you are successful. And if it doesn't work the first time, try another one, eventually you'll hit on something that "works".
I don't think you guys are being fair to the OP. Being in a job you need but don't like can be very draining in time, physical energy, emotional energy, etc. While it may appear to the casual viewer that he has time to job hunt (time spent posting on slashdot, for example), the amount of energy required to post on slashdot can hardly be compared to the amount of energy needed to update a resume/cover letter, search for jobs, apply for jobs, arrange a schedule of interviews, etc: one act is a form of relaxation, the others are not.
Is the company big enough to have some kind of personnel manual? It likely has an "hours of operation" paragraph. Adhere to it. Not rigidly. Just start packing up when the day is over and go home if there isn't anyone standing over you with an urgent task. If your company has comp time or overtime policy, be sure to make use of it. If it does not, do a little research into what the law requires in your locale. In my opinion, being unemployed and stone broke is better than being abused. As a rhetorical gesture, it probably helps if you can arrive a few minutes before the boss a few times a week.
First, make the deadline. Then take vacation time you have earned, and find another job. Then give the employer adequate notice. One of the remarkable things is how everyone feels employers should be ethical to employees, but fewer talk about how employees should be considerate of employers. Most employers with tight deadlines are struggling to make it..... Managers, including me, were born lazy, so if deadlines are tightly managed it is usually because they need to be for the company to make it, not because the employer has a lot of choice about it.
Oh dear, you can probably tell that I have switched from being an employee to an employer.;-)
It IS hard. But a good way to get in the door is to temp.
I finally got an MBA, but all my experience was in IT. I wanted to be an operations analyst.
I finally got a foot in the door at large footwear/apparel company - but I had to swallow my pride and go in as an "admin assistant". Sure I could make more in IT, but I didn't want to be in IT any more.
My first job was as an admin assistant and it lasted a month. I got transferred to another part of the company as basically an assistant to an operations analyst. 11 months later, I landed a permanent job, making pretty good money, and working as a supply chain performance analyst. It's a perfect job for me - I'm learning the things I want to learn, and am making great connections for my next job.
And by the way, I never would have gotten the job I have now if I had just applied from the "outside". It's all about getting in the door and then busting your ass to make a name for yourself.
If there's a company you want to work for, find out who they temp through, and work your way in. It's not glamorous, but it works!
Firstly, realise that you will cause real damage to yourself and it takes a long time to recover - is that worth the money? If you work weekends you have reasonable cause to take a days' rest during the week - use that 'rest'.
Secondly, if you have decided to look around it means you have mentally already left (lesson 1 of staff management - missed by many idiot managers). So you're going to feel even worse now - get on with finding a job.
Having no time is an illusion - it's your choice.
Insert
Sadly, unless you are both indespensible and underpaid for the market (sound's like your case), these types of raises tend to be merely advances on your next couple of annual review raises.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Simply put... make the time.
Do web and newpaper searches with email responses really late in the evening when you get home.
Use vacation if possible for interviews.
However some employers are really jerks and will do anything to deny vacation time.
So pull an "office space" (must see movie), just don't show up to work on the day of an interview, and if work asks why you were gone respond that you thought your boss had gotten your vacation request memo. Schedule your time wisely, so stack up the interviews on the no-show day (you will not be able to pull this off often). I know, it is almost inconceivable for a dedicated, hardworking, get-the-job-done person as yourself, but it might be the only way to leave other than simply quitting without another job lined up.
I was in a situation like that working for the huge worldwide leader in ATMs and Financial equipment called NCR. They were working me like a slave and expected overtime in excess of 20+ hours of it a week. I made some time to contact a head hunter and told them what I wanted to do and they got me a dream job with large employer on the top 100 list of best places to work in the US. One needs to make time for themselves even in a job like that. You will bend under pressure, and if the employer is bending the rules for overworking you then you should bend the use of time to accomodate searching for a new job. I have gotten myself out of few bad jobs by taking time during my work day to sneak in a few phone calls and emails. Don't feel guilty because that employer sure isn't feeling guilty about overworking you!
he mentions how he's doing 2 different jobs without any sort of extra compensation but the overtime. maybe he should take it up with teh boss. maybe it would be cheaper for the boss to hire someone else at a lower pay rate than to be paying him all the overtime.
You must be new to this industry. If you're salaried, you don't get overtime pay -- ever. That's standard industry practice. If you're hourly, you might get a package where they only pay overtime beyond 28 hours per month in exchange for paid vacation and holidays that you'll never get a chance to use.
By federal regulations, even if they do pay you overtime, IT workers are exempt from time-and-a-half requirements. They can choose to only pay you the same rate as you're currently being paid. I've never heard of an IT worker getting paid time-and-a-half. It is no cheaper to hire another worker (and probably more expensive due to overhead costs) when you can just pay the same guy for more hours, especially if he's working less than 80 hours per week (16 hours per day without weekends). Even if he does get time-and-a-half, it's still cheaper unless he works over 66 hours. (13+ hours per day without weekends.)
In my opinion, you should always take one of two options -- salaried with good benefits and an expectation to work less than 45 hours per week or strictly hourly with all working hours paid and no non-working hours paid. Any other kind of job is a sucker's job, and I'm starting to think that the latter job type is one too if you can regularly expect to be on-call as per my current job. Taking job where you're hourly and they can still get free overtime out of you is a job where you're absolutely assured to get overtime work constantly.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
I probably should be posting as an AC here, but who knows, you may want to follow up with emails. What to do when you're worked into the ground without so much as a thank-you?
Some background first: My wife got her MBA, while working full-time, in a 2-year program. During her last year, she was not only working (for a company whose name I can never divulge), but asked to fly all over the globe (Asia, Latin America) in her role, and was putting in weekends -- time she should have been using for the degree. (She still managed to graduate with honors, by the way.)
Her management team was so fraught with cronyism, however, and so dictatorial that she could never get past their bullying. She never did crack the glass ceiling there, even after trying every strategy in the book to succeed, including writing up new business plans. The plans were in fact implemented, but she never received credit for them.
Instead, her manager told her that the object of employment at this company was to do your job, take orders, and retire. (Nice place, huh?)
It got worse: During a celebratory lunch for her group, her skip-level manager never even acknowledged that she received her MBA from a top-flight B-school. He instead chose to heap accolades on a colleague (who, incidentally, was and is a lazy sack of shit).
She's scarred to this day. She has a new job, and it's pretty nice, but she's still wondering what she really wants to do with her life. Can you blame her?
The moral of the story: No matter how hard you try, there are some management teams that will, for whatever reason, ignore or denigrate you. If you find yourself in such a position, you do two things:
Hope this helps. Good luck with whatever decision you make..
--- The American Way of Life is not a birthright. Hell, it's not even sustainable.
Work all the overtime you can, and put all that extra money in the bank. Live cheap for a while.
Once you've got enough in the bank, start leaving on time every day. Just plain flat ignore requests to stay late. Eventually they'll fire you, and you'll live off your savings while you look for another job full-time.
Any potential employer who doesn't understand your frustration at being death-marched is probably somebody you don't want to work for anyway, so the fact that you left your previous employment before you had a new job won't hurt you.
That's dumb. Job postings are usually the work of a recruiter or HR person that doesn't know what they're talking about. They may get the technologies-required list from the tech staff, but then they tuck in the years-required all on their own to spiffy it up for the job boards.
To assume "this company doesn't know jack squat" and disregard the job just because the years on the posting are wonky is stupid.Respond. You've been using the technology since it became publically available. You're qualified.
If you get the interview, and realize that the description was actually written by the person that will be your new supervisor, and he's a moron, then you can always opt not to take the job. But to just ignore it on the basis of something most likely attributable to some HR lackey's decision to add years to the job requirements? Absurd.
One important thing that many folks learn on the job it to make their coworkers aware of resource limits. I can't do 200%. So stop doing two people's jobs, stop working long hours, and pressure your employer for compensation for your extra effort. I doubt anyone would fault you for being "let go" from a job because your employer has unrealistic expectations. Most likely as a recent grad, you are young and you do have more free time than you realize, so a couple extra hours won't hurt now and then. Those of us who have a family with small children can attest that, though worthwhile, there isn't time for extracuricular work, chores, or free time.
Set you limits, and take time for yourself. Besides, what do you care if your sweatshop boss gets upset if you leave the office for two-three hours for a job interview?